Is the whole PUA thing just a scam?

[Rollo Tomassi]

From what I can gather from this guy's blog he's got more of a problem with Game than the PUA community. There are any number of Game haters out there, but at least this guy has got some cogent points. Lets address them:

PUAs are merely a more sophisticated type of woman pleaser; bolstered by a unique mix of fatalistic, evolutionary psychobabble, where women are concerned

His bullet points enumerate a long(er) list of prerequisites a Man must more or less master to "do the bidding of" the women he want's to be successful with (i.e. ƒuck). That list may seem very daunting, especially to an AFC who's looking for a quick cure to his condition. Where this author falls short is in assuming that it should be a woman's imperative to meet a Man even half-way. In his binary presumption of pedestalization or not, he doesn't understand that EVERYONE HAS GAME.

Guys don't seek out SS or the PUA community, or even LoveShack or the eHarmony forums because their getting too much pussie, or their LTRs are blissfully uncomplicated. It is the condition of Men to be sexual, and as such we all have an internal belief in what we think should be the best way to accomplish satisfying that sexuality. That, in essence, is Game. Whether you're a supplicating beta-AFC, a natural Alpha, or anything in between, you're still devising what you think is the best plan of action to facilitate your own sexuality. Everyone has Game; it may be overtly pandering or it may be subtle and deliberate, but everyone has Game.

You will only get what you have gotten if you keep doing what you have done. At the very least the PUA community can be credited with having the initiative to observe and study the most common behaviors of women, draw conclusions from them and institute techniques based on predictable responses.

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, b!tchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

 

[Big Overseas 1]

To me, PUAs only get you so far. They might help you get girls, but that's where it stops.

They like to shame a lot of guys to the point where they actually feel bad just for being who they are. Most don't really even care about the guys that really need help at all.

That's why they insult them by calling them names like suckers, dweebs, nerds, and chumps. I can't see how you can learn a whole lot from guys who don't mind showing that kind of disrespect to the fellas they claim to want to help.

 

[JT7890]

Rollo

Guys don't seek out SS or the PUA community, or even LoveShack or the eHarmony forums because their getting too much pussie, or their LTRs are blissfully uncomplicated. It is the condition of Men to be sexual, and as such we all have an internal belief in what we think should be the best way to accomplish satisfying that sexuality. That, in essence, is Game.

What the fvck? How does having GAME go from "knowing what to say, do, etc. to get in a woman's pants" to just "ANYTHING A GUY ATTEMPTS" to get a girl? Another example of a poster who "writes good" and as a result he's proped up as the KING of Sosuave, yet, what he "writes" is stupid.

I'm sorry, but the fat, sweaty, musty, broke guy does NOT have game. No matter what he thinks, girls run away from him like the plague.

Whether you're a supplicating beta-AFC, a natural Alpha, or anything in between, you're still devising what you think is the best plan of action to facilitate your own sexuality. Everyone has Game; it may be overtly pandering or it may be subtle and deliberate, but everyone has Game.

SMH

 

[JT7890]

Rogue

It's touch which nobody would think twice about. You could kino your grandma, mother, or sister at a birthday dinner party and they would never be wiser. It's inert.

No it's bullshyt. If you want to massage the girl's back DO IT. If you want to hold her hand DO IT. If you want to smack her on the a.ss DO IT. If the girl is INTO YOU, it won't matter. If she's not, she doesn't want you touching her "inertly," "softly," "like you touch grandma," or anything of the sort. She doesn't want you NEAR her.

Rogue

You begin with safe areas of the body such as the hands and progressively work your way to more intimate areas and progressively work from light to heavier. Obviously, as with everything, context is important; meeting a slut at a house party will be different than the subtle nuances of a modest girl at a coffee shop.

Bullshyt dude lol, will you stop copying and pasting the DJ Bible for goodness sakes.

No, you don't have to smack her on the a.ss in the middle of Starbucks, but you are missing the point. There's no BUILD UP. If the girl is INTO YOU, she doesn't mind you touching her, period. You don't have to "start touching her like you touch grandma" and then "start touchign her like you touch a slvt," or any other type of Sosuave Taught Bullshyt.

Perfect example of how majority of the advice on this site (in relation to women) svcks.

 

[zekko]

Kino is effective, but I hope no one here thinks that touching girls was invented by the pickup community.

Side note: I remember reading when I was a teenager (back in the 70s) that men respond visually, while women respond to touch. So "kino theory" was being discussed at least as far back as the 70s and I'm guessing actually goes back waaaay farther than that.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

What the fvck? How does having GAME go from "knowing what to say, do, etc. to get in a woman's pants" to just "ANYTHING A GUY ATTEMPTS" to get a girl? I'm sorry, but the fat, sweaty, musty, broke guy does NOT have game. No matter what he thinks, girls run away from him like the plague.

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm speaking-in-tongues here, but the fact of the matter is that even the most rank, pandering, beta-AFC still hangs on his misguided belief that what he's doing to "get girls" is the best path to success. We can argue the terminology, and you'll of course say "well that's not Game", and you'd be right, but to the AFC running Beta Game he thinks what you consider Game is counterproductive and conflicting with his approach.

These are the 2 approaches the article mentions. The point you seem to have missed in my post is that the author wants to discredit PUA skills, techniques, etc. "Game" in that it's just a more complex way of pandering to women; essentially drawing false equivalencies between an uneducated, AFC, haphazard approach and a more well thought out PUA mindset based on a world-wide community of men collectively sharing their experiences, drawing conclusions and devising techniques to be more successful with women.

 

[bish0p]

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm speaking-in-tongues here, but the fact of the matter is that even the most rank, pandering, beta-AFC still hangs on his misguided belief that what he's doing to "get girls" is the best path to success.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. That broke, sweaty, fat guy probably wants a girl to love him for him and so he believes he shouldn't have to change at all.

 

[J. Darko]

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm speaking-in-tongues here, but the fact of the matter is that even the most rank, pandering, beta-AFC still hangs on his misguided belief that what he's doing to "get girls" is the best path to success. We can argue the terminology, and you'll of course say "well that's not Game", and you'd be right, but to the AFC running Beta Game he thinks what you consider Game is counterproductive and conflicting with his approach.

These are the 2 approaches the article mentions. The point you seem to have missed in my post is that the author wants to discredit PUA skills, techniques, etc. "Game" in that it's just a more complex way of pandering to women; essentially drawing false equivalencies between an uneducated, AFC, haphazard approach and a more well thought out PUA mindset based on a world-wide community of men collectively sharing their experiences, drawing conclusions and devising techniques to be more successful with women.

There are no f*cking techniques!! Negs, DHV, I-am-the-price-mentality doesn't mean sh*t to her if she thinks yourone disgustingugly motherf*cker. If she likes you, you can do whatever the hell you want, she will like you anyway. If she doesn't like you, you can still do whatever the hell you want because she is not going to like you anyway.

F*ck all those theories, none of you ''PUA's'' or ''Don Juans'' get laid anyway. Too busy designing strategies about something that comes naturel and discussing this sick mental masturbatio sh*t with other socially retarded internet virgins wankingbehind the computer all day. Even worse, spreading this PUA bullsh*t to people wth at least half a brain and completely f*cking up whatever intelligence they got left. I wish I never read this PUA bullsh*t, I wish I'd never come to this site. Thnx a lot with your f*cking techniques, but analyse this instead:

F*ck those theories. Forget about negs, dhv, i-am-the-prize or whatever. Throw your f*cking computer out of the window, get a job, go the gym, get some decent clothes and open your goddamn mouth if you happen to run in a girl you like. That's it. Easy. Have fun. Enjoy life, you don't have to approach a girl from a 67.55775785757 degree angle in order to maximize your chances with 3.7555 percent to get laid. Who cares anyway. She doesn't and now you don't give a f*ck either.

Same goes for that f*cking bodybuilding sh*t. Forget about techniques. Forget about eating six meals a day, getting 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight.Forget about Mark Rippetoe, Glenn Pendlay, Dave Tate, Jim Wendler, Christian Thibeaudeau, Mystery, Tyler Durden. Enjoy life.
Enjoy a healthy diet of whatever you feel like. Like eat some bread, drink some milk eat some fruit...hell order some chinese food fordinner. Have fun working out. Just pick a few exercises you like and get better at them. Enjoy
spending your time with some swimming, rowing, cycling, running, walking. Relaxed. There's no boogey man that's going to eat all your
muscle if you enjoy some light exercise for a couple of hours. Don't worry about that. Feel all the energy you gain instead. Don't take
girls, working out, building some muscle and shredding some fat so seriously. Have fun. It will come.

I'll tell you this. Been out of the f*cking hospital for a weeks now, I have been diagnosed with Crohn's disease and I've been put on medication that completely destroys my f*cking body. Loss of bone mass, loss of muscle mass, loss of endurance, lower rate of cell growth, gain of bodyfat and insomnia. That's whatthat sh*t is supposed to be doing to my body.

But guess what?

Since I don't give a f*ck about these things anymore I'm doingmuch better inlife than I ever did with all these theories about how you should eat, lift, sleep and talk to girls. I'm much better off doing whatever the hell I want.

So f*ck PUA, f*ck theories, f*ck socially retarded virgins on the internet, f*ck 'm all. Yes it's a scam. All of it is. PUA, bodybuilding, self-improvement, get rich, laws of power, all of it, all of it, ALL OFF IT. Just perpuated by f*cking stupid people on the internet. Quit messingwith my head!

 

[zekko]

Wow, there's some anger in here.

to the AFC running Beta Game he thinks what you consider Game is counterproductive and conflicting with his approach

I think a lot of AFCs think game can work, but they may not feel it is congruent with their personality. When they hear things like be selfish, put yourself first, be a jerk, be a bad boy, etc. they may not feel like that is who they are, and may not wish to be.

I agree that everyone, even betas, have their own way of doing things as far as interacting with women goes. You could call that their "game", it's just that their game is weak or underevolved.

If she likes you, you can do whatever the hell you want, she will like you anyway. If she doesn't like you, you can still do whatever the hell you want because she is not going to like you anyway.

In some ways, this is current RSD theory. Do whatever the hell you want, amuse yourself, and let the chips fall where they may (in other words, she'll either like you or she won't). Pickup theory seems to embrace an awfully wide spectrum of actions.

 

[JT7890]

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm speaking-in-tongues here, but the fact of the matter is that even the most rank, pandering, beta-AFC still hangs on his misguided belief that what he's doing to "get girls" is the best path to success.

Okay Rollo first of all, not everything that Sosuave defines as "AFC" is actually "AFC". For example, the "3 second rule" or the "don't call her until after 3 days to getting her number" I don't follow either rule because they actually fvck up the altercation.

You mention "the best path to success," who are you (some guy on the computer in God knows what city, living God's knows what life) to TELL a grown a.ss man what his BEST PATH to success with women IN HIS AREA is? So if a guy doesn't follow your "theories" or the Sosuave "theories" then he's an AFC and clueless with women? That's basically what you are saying and like I have said numerous times, majority of the advice on this site in relation to women is bullshyt. Guys come here because they are having some problems with women, and to be honest, the "advice" they get from here makes them WORSE off then when they came.

These are the 2 approaches the article mentions. The point you seem to have missed in my post is that the author wants to discredit PUA skills, techniques, etc. "Game" in that it's just a more complex way of pandering to women; essentially drawing false equivalencies between an uneducated, AFC, haphazard approach and a more well thought out PUA mindset based on a world-wide community of men collectively sharing their experiences, drawing conclusions and devising techniques to be more successful with women.

Okay, and here's where you are missing the author's point. The author understands HOW Sosuave and the PUA community comes to their conclusions on "game" or "theories" or as you describe "the best path to success with women" but the ISSUE is that majority of those conclusions and theories are bullshyt.

See Rollo, put it in this context. If I'm trying to run a successful business and hire as well as put people around me that can assist with operating a successful business, should I:

A: Bring in people who have demonstrated NO real, tangible, MEASURABLE success in the business area I'm in and obtain their "opinions" or "perceptions" on how the business should be run?

OR

B: Bring in people who have DONE the business I'm in, are DOING the business I'm in, and will continue DOING the business I'm in going forward. They have real, tangible, MEASURABLE success and I can track their results.

Sosuave has "group A" people coming together to create "theories" based upon their FLAWED perceptions of women. This is what I've been saying over and over and that's also what the author said in that blog.

Sosuave does NOT verify WHO THE FVCK the so called "PUA" or "Dating Expert" is behind the computer. They don't. If the guy puts two sentences together, paraphrases a Pook theory mixed with a Gunwitch theory with a little Sr. Fingers sprinkled on top with a Rollo spin on it, then the guy is a HERO! His advice is awesome! He will be in the Don Juan Bible!

Are you seeing what I'm saying right now? For example Rollo, I asked you a question in this response and I said, who the hell are YOU to tell another grown a.ss man what his best plan to success with women is? Do you know why I asked that question? Because for one, I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE FVCK YOU ARE. You never posted a pic, you never posted a field report, you have no real, measurable, results with women PERIOD, for me to even KNOW if you have even spoken to a woman in the last 10 years.

But, this is Sosuave lol, and it's obvious that you don't need all of those things for this community. All you need is the ability to "write well" (despite your content being awful) and the community will applaud your every word.

 

[azanon]

Since I don't give a f*ck about these things anymore I'm doingmuch better inlife than I ever did with all these theories about how you should eat, lift, sleep and talk to girls. I'm much better off doing whatever the hell I want.

I hate to tell you, but RT is right. There is no "opting out". If you ever get the chance to read 48 Laws of power, Greene talks about the same thing applying to power. You're in a power struggle whether you realize it or not, and you're going to have some kind of game whether you realize it or not.

But feel free to express your frustration. I'm sure it has therapeutic benefits.

 

[DanelMadr]

In my opinion, (if anyone interested)

I quite agree with J.Darko. Trying to blueprint a game of life is extremely counter productive and dangerous and totally futile when it is not backed up by the right attitude / character.

The paradox is...when you achieve the right attitude/character, you simply do not need theories/rules/Game and it actually messes with your head and makes things worse.

On the other hand, the principles of the seduction game can help you to be aware of the right attitude.

Bottom line for me. Just be assertive and fearless. Assertiveness can not be learned it has to be achieved by undergoing frightful situations.

 

[zekko]

Women naturally throw obstacles in the way of sex. It is the man's job to figure out how to overcome them

I don't agree with everything the author said either. But the reason this is pedestalizing is because if a woman is putting up obstacles, why should you have to try to sweep them aside? It's like if she doesn't have the interest, why should you pursue? Because you want to get to the glittering prize of her vagina.

To add to his cynical attacks, he uses absolutist words like "always," "never," and "need" to make game/pua sound inflexible

Actually, one of the things that bugs me about game is the inflexibility. Ideally, there are a lot of tips that might apply to different guys and different situations. But too often people take a pickup concept and cling to it like it is a law of physics or something. And if someone breaks it, they will be ridiculed on the forum.

Example: A lot of guys have success texting girls. But if some guy posts this some dude will say "PLEASE tell me you are not texting women".

However, I do agree that these guidelines are just that - they alone will not change your mindset or make your life more splendid. That's up to the individual.

I think the reason there's a lot of anger toward the PUA industry is that the ads you see suggest that their guidelines actually WILL transform your life. Something along the lines of "Just try this one little secret and women will flock to you. And you won't have to do anything more but sit on your bar stool. You'll learn to put off a powerful vibe that women will not be able to resist, and make them approach YOU.".

 

[azanon]

One of that articles main points was to claim that our sole motive for implementing PUA techniques and/or game is to score pu**Y.

I'm actually more concerned about the pride and self-respect I generate for myself when I focus on being the natural man I'm intended to be, than on any results it's supposed to provide with respect with women.

Sometimes you will have the option to sell out on your values with women vs. maintaining manly respect. I've gotten to where I always choose the latter because it's more important to me.

I see what were learning here as a way of life 24/7, not just some "scam" one implements for a narrow objective, be it women or something else.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Are you seeing what I'm saying right now? For example Rollo, I asked you a question in this response and I said, who the hell are YOU to tell another grown a.ss man what his best plan to success with women is? Do you know why I asked that question? Because for one, I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE FVCK YOU ARE. You never posted a pic, you never posted a field report, you have no real, measurable, results with women PERIOD, for me to even KNOW if you have even spoken to a woman in the last 10 years.

But, this is Sosuave lol, and it's obvious that you don't need all of those things for this community. All you need is the ability to "write well" (despite your content being awful) and the community will applaud your every word.

I think you have more of a problem with 'hero worship' than anything to do with my identity or even the concepts I and others offer here. What difference does it make? I have a PM box full of men from all walks of life, from a variety of cultures and ages thanking me for opening their eyes to what's been right in front of them. I've read the regular "what has SS done for you?" threads and I'm glad to see that the vast majority of the responses have been in the positive. For whatever reasons Men have found the ability to change their minds about themselves, their situations and how the women in their lives operate. With the exception of about 6, I've never met any of them in person.

Who am I? Does it really matter? I didn't start posting on SS to show anyone some path to perfection - I pass along what I do not because I got everything right, but because I got a hell of a lot wrong and I learned from it. I only post observations from my own experiences and from what I know of the experiences of others, and then put together cogent conclusions and draw as valid theories as I can from them. I trust that any given SS member has the intelligence to sort out whether or not my advice, theories or otherwise are drawn from past experiences.

It doesn't matter who I am. I could be Charles Manson writing this from a prison computer or I could be some famous actor who bangs pornstars and snubs his nose at CBS in contempt. Anyone can be anyone on the internet. What matters is the validity and thought behind the content and the ideas I present and THAT is what irks you. You have no real counter argument to those ideas, and it pisses you off that they conflict with what your narrow, lazy, comfortable scope of reality is. I remain as anonymous as I can for exactly that reason - you simply don't know the first rule of debate: attack the argument, not the debater.

So why am I posting here? What am I selling? A DVD, seminars, a book, a blog another PUA community? I've never made a dime from my ideas - the same ideas that guys have been thanking me for for years. The moment I profit from my ideas is the moment they lose validity.

 

[DanelMadr]

I think we avoid the Great Question.

Do we want to f@ck or do we want to make love?
Do we want an ego stroke or better life?
Do we want to double our dating or keep a woman?

We are on the Mature part of the forum, so I guess we can agree that being a well balanced, assertive, better man of integrity should be our goal rather than instant pleasure.

We might also agree that being that man not only improves your life but also attracts women.

You can read Bible every day, go to church, listen to sermons, write articles about sins, virtues etc. and how to achieve it. You can even develop a system of rules (10 or more) and follow it. You can even do some field work to help the poor. You can even become a preacher and teach the rules to other people. And you can enforce it for centuries. Does it work? Actually not so much, when there are priests molesting children. And narco barons with a cross on their chests.

I'm not trying to compare PUA to religion, I'm trying to underline the fact that making theories, generalizations and dogmas will not change the individual. It can show him a way but that's it. I'm not familiar with PUA community newest trends but I am sure that in order to sell, they give you a lots of cheap instant BS nicely packaged and explained. And they have to sect essence like "We let you on a secret".

And the gurus do that because they realised that the next step in their game is to make loads of money and it also feels good to teach others.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

A great deal of hate is fueled by false premises. Concocting convenient scenarios, imagining the worst of your enemies, and reinterpreting their successes are a salve for the burned ego. Newsflash: your thin-skinned indignation is not my moral crisis.

 

[synergy1]

Are you seeing what I'm saying right now? For example Rollo, I asked you a question in this response and I said, who the hell are YOU to tell another grown a.ss man what his best plan to success with women is? Do you know why I asked that question? Because for one, I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE FVCK YOU ARE. You never posted a pic, you never posted a field report, you have no real, measurable, results with women PERIOD, for me to even KNOW if you have even spoken to a woman in the last 10 years.

But, this is Sosuave lol, and it's obvious that you don't need all of those things for this community. All you need is the ability to "write well" (despite your content being awful) and the community will applaud your every word.

And what are your measurable results? The one chick you managed to call for 3 weeks strait and get results from? All those close friends you don't have becasue you are too good for them with your ****ty MBA at the age of 27? Your throwing stones in a glass house. I wouldn't even compare you to me, let alone someone who has success like RT. Actually, its not even close both via content and personality who has more credibility than you. Actually the gang from Sesame street has more street cred. than you do.

Semantics aside, game is nothing more than a means to placate the opposite sex in order to achieve your goals. Everyone has game to a degree. Everyone has their little act. The PUA community does nothing more than focus in on them, and discuss what works and what doesn't . To that end, I feel there is some merit in what they do. However, its a business and with any business comes selling the product. A lot of what they push are unrealistic expectations which can lead people to be 'fake' good people, but no one here advocates for that. You say that the advice on women here is bad, and I disagree with that very much. Read the posts of anyone who has had good success, and the overwhelming message is simple; be the best you possible. Admit mistakes, focus on improvements, learn to grow, and create a life worthy of having a women be a part of. This isn't just good advice for getting the girl of your dreams, but its sound life advice.

Sosuave has "group A" people coming together to create "theories" based upon their FLAWED perceptions of women. This is what I've been saying over and over and that's also what the author said in that blog.

Remind me never to hire you for my next business when I need due diligence reviews. Awful. SS has people citing direct experience to back their claims. This is all I do, over and over. The others who simply post theory usually get called out. yes, they exist, but if those are the group you chose to focus on as a representative sampling of the community, than you are off base here.

 

[zekko]

One of that articles main points was to claim that our sole motive for implementing PUA techniques and/or game is to score pu**Y.

I would say that is the sole motive for a significant amount of posters here (moreso on the general discussion forum, however).

The self respect angle is one of the more valuable things that is taught here, although you shouldn't have to read a pickup forum to realize that you should respect yourself.

I only post observations from my own experiences and from what I know of the experiences of others, and then put together cogent conclusions and draw as valid theories as I can from them

That's what makes this forum valuable (and interesting), people drawing from their own experiences and observations. That's a helpful shortcut for a lot of less experienced posters, and that's how it should be.

It's when things become so overblown that the author's statements ring more true. This is a place full of nice tips, tricks, philosphies, and motivational speaking. It gets disturbing when people try to make more out of it than what it is. That's when the PUA community starts to resemble a cult.

For example: Rollo, you've said that you used to get laid. A lot. Then you got married, obviously to the right girl, if you've been married for 14 years. It was only after this that you got into the pickup community.
My point is that you obviously didn't need it. You accomplished this all on your own by learning from your own mistakes and the world around you. I have no doubt some of the information here enriched your life. Most guys on this forum would probably love to accomplish what you have, but you did it yourself without having to read a pickup forum.

There are guys here who act like you shouldn't be able to get anywhere with women unless you are a member of the community. Clearly, this is garbage. The school of hard knocks should teach you most of the same things you read here. The reason that the PUA industry is aimed toward the most backward of AFCs is that some guys just don't get it.

 

[vatoloco]

Women naturally throw obstacles in the way of sex. It is the man's job to figure out how to overcome them

I don't agree with everything the author said either. But the reason this is pedestalizing is because if a woman is putting up obstacles, why should you have to try to sweep them aside? It's like if she doesn't have the interest, why should you pursue? Because you want to get to the glittering prize of her vagina.

ASD, my friend. ASD.

That's just the way it is man. That's the way women come from the factory.

ASD applies, unless of course, you're a movie/TV star, a multi-millionare and/or a loaded drug dealer.