Is prenuptial agreement necessary?

[goatman]

BUMP

I found this reply on answerology.com after a women on the site asked if she should agree to her bf proposal of a prenuptial.

"Something like that would make me think that he does not see marriage as a permanent thing that demands work and commitment. I would worry about a man's view of marriage if he started talking about a pre-nup, it seems like he is trying to set up a way out for when he stops trying to make the marriage work, or that he is not sure that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me, or that he doesn't love or trust me enough to feel comfortable enough to feel that it is not a risk to marry me. I would honestly take the proposition as either an insult or as an indication that he does not love or trust me enough to know that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me. It would make me constantly worry that marriage did not mean the same thing to him as it does to me, it would seem like an indication that he would consider leaving me. I may be old fashioned, but my parents have been married for over 35 years and they do not have to worry about what will happen if they leave one another, because they will not turn back on the commitment that they made. The fact that they don't have a prenup means that they do not worry about the individual in the marriage, they work towards what is the best for our family. When you get married, you stop doing what is best for yourself; you do what is best for your family-having something like a pre-nup almost works against that ideal. How can you form a single unit with a person when you have to constantly worry about the conflicting result of doing what is best for yourself (as if you were alone) and what is best for your family. At one point you should be able to say that you just do whatever is best for all of you, even if that means self sacrifice, without worrying that you are potentially destroying your future security by doing so. It would also constantly give me a feeling of insecurity as it proves that he doesn't believe that his love is strong enough to last, or that he cares enough to ensure that he will continue to do all he can to make me love him.

I may feel differently about it because I see marriage as something permanent that should not be entered into lightly, and my parents have been together through some very tough times. My ex's parents were also together for 30+ years, and the man I am seeing now also has parents that loved and stood by one another until his father died.

I am also coming from a slightly different situation, both my partner and I are at the start of our careers so neither has much to lose and, if I look realistically at my last relationship, my ex and I were only able to stay together as long as we did because we both made sacrifices and career plans for the good of our relationship and I don’t like the idea of being forced to choose one or the other."

Jus wondering wat u's thought.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

ABSOLUTELY!!!! If I get married again, this is the agreement my wife would have to sign...
====================

I, the undersigned, a female accepting a marriage proposal, agree that..
Section 1: In the unlikely event of my not having an orgasm after you've drunkenly rolled on top of me and pumped away for five *whole* minutes, wheezing like an old man with emphysema, I shall politely fake one.

Section 1.01: And it'll be a really good act too, with me saying stuff like "So THIS is what hot monkey love is all about!" and howling like a cat that's being repeatedly jabbed with a pin.

Section 1.02: I will never ask for more *foreplay*.

Section 2: I fully understand that a woman's main role in any relationship is to take the blame. So when you stub your toe in the bathroom or your football team loses, I agree that - by some complex scientific equation incomprehensible to woman - it will be my fault. Even if I wasn't there.

Section 3: Whenever my friends and I get together for a girl's night out, I will tell them that you are better hung than a large-balled Himalayan yak and an elephant would jealous of your genitalia.

Section 3.01: I shall mention *often* your sexual prowess and longevity in the bedroom.

Section 3.02: And I will also mention this to YOUR friends. A lot.

Section 4: After sex (which I will NEVER refer to as "making love"), I will not expect you to cuddle me for hours till your arm goes dead. Nor will I let my hair annoyingly get in your face.

Section 4.01: I will never, ever give your penis a "cute" nickname.

Section 5: In bed, I will be as keen as mustard to try any novel sexual position you fancy. Especially ones where I do all the work and you just lie there, grinning.

Section 5.01: I will ruthlessly interrogate my attractive female friends and inform you if any of them have the slightest bi-sexual tendencies. Then I'll invite them around for dinner. And hide their car keys so they have to stay.

Section 5.02: I promise to work out at the gym for two hours a day in order to keep my body sexually desirable to you, even though your intake of beer may cause your gut to swell to proportions of a nine-month pregnancy.

Section 5.03: I promise never to bring up your hair loss and the fact that a baby's butt and/or honeydew melon is somewhat similar.

Section 5.04: I promise to shave every *possible* inch of my body and will always love your *weekend* beard...

Section 6: After we split up, I will never sleep with any of your friends or colleagues. Or anyone else you have ever met. Or may one day meet. And if men attempt to talk to me, I will solemnly inform them that you have "ruined me for other men".

Section 6: I understand that mechanical objects like cars, computer games and remote control devices are beyond the comprehension of women. I will only make a fool of myself if I attempt to operate them, so you're in charge of anything *mechanical*.

Section 6.01: With the exception of the following household items: iron, washing machine and dryer, stove, refrigerator, garbage disposal, garbage can, vacuum cleaner, diapers and toilets.

Being of sound mind and body, I enter this relationship contract.

Signed ____________________________________

============================

The likelyhood of her signing it would be high because she would have already signed a Pre-Relationship Agreement to have gotten to the point of receiving a proposal. The actual agreement can be found in this thread... Pre-Relationship Agreement

 

[goatman]

:crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

should make that into an article

 

[ElChoclo]

Yes it is a good idea;

1 Statistics on marriage failure suggest a high risk level.

2 Some protection is always better than none, otherwise airbags would not have been invented.

3 If a prenup is somehow taboo for discussion, then there are some major communication issues which will need to be addressed, either sooner or later.

4 Of course if you plan to bring in nothing and build up nothing then you need not worry, but that is probably more pessimistic than considering the possibility of marriage failure.

 

[Bible_Belt]

fwiw, remember too that prenups cannot address child support. The support guidelines that courts usually follow in the US award 20-30% of your income per child. So even with a rock-solid prenup, if you have two kids together, she will still take half your income until the kids are 18.

 

[RedPill]

3 If a prenup is somehow taboo for discussion, then there are some major communication issues which will need to be addressed, either sooner or later.

A very good point! If you're to the point where marriage is even in the discussion, and she doesn't understand by now that you have no intentions of living the beta male lifestyle, then obviously communication is an issue.

This thread got me thinking... My sister will be getting married soon and her AFC boyfriend has no idea what he's in for. I'm really tempted to talk to him about getting a prenup. The only problem with this though is that my family would probably never speak to me again due to their AFCness.

 

[Egoist]

.....

I've counseled (and worked for) very successful men in their 50s & 60s who are trapped in a marriage of convenience because when they married their wives they were poor and had a scarcity mentality with regards to women and never thought it would be necessary to even consider a pre-nup. After 30 or so years of marriage they find that they are beholden to their wives and cannot escape the situation because in doing so half of their assets in the companies they started after their marriages would be transffered to her and thus necessitate a buy out, a dissolution of the company or a serious deficiency in revenue for the company leaving it (and him) vulnerable to competitiors, shareholder sell off and expensive bankruptcy settlements.

You may think this is an extreme illustration, but so did a lot of 20 y.o. guys marrying their dream girl who went on to be business successes. The prospect is worse in small businesses where the man may not have the resources to rebound from an added financial burden, whereas the highly successful business man may have the insulation to weather an ugly divorce.

This of course says nothing of the guy who doesn't own a business, who's met with some career success post-marriage. The terrific medical intern who married his college girlfriend, makes substantially more in his career as a doctor after 20 years. At time of divorce he then owes (depending on state) up to 10 years of spousal support to her. To add insult to injury, in most settlements, she's also entitled to more financial support if his ability to earn it improves in that 10 year period. So for sake of example, lets say our divorced doctor is promoted to chief of staff for surgery in 5 years - when he gets a raise, she gets a raise.

Nowadays we have this extension of the utility of the ONEitis, soulmate myth that tells young men that pre-nups are only for the 'shallow' likes of Donald Trump or Michael Douglas who have considerable sums of money to wager on (another) marriage, yet for a young man to consider one it likens him to these 'superficial' celebrities, proves he has a bloated sense of self and means he'd consider money over "true love". Nothing could be further from the truth.

awesome points, everyone should read and understand this.

very few people can predict where they will be in 20 years. But more likely than not, you will be better off and more successful. God forbid you end up successful in business or anything else without a prenup. Even to get investors or just a loan or reinsure - not having one can make things more complicated, because in a business situation nobody wants to deal with a divorce or a death after which the wife gets control of business assets or anything else like that.

So thats my excuse personally. Easy and logical reason for you to have a prenup - for business/career reasons. Very few women would be able to argue against that, because that means they are interfering with your success.

 

[Vulpine]

BUMP

I found this reply on answerology.com after a women on the site asked if she should agree to her bf proposal of a prenuptial.

"Something like that would make me think that he does not see marriage as a permanent thing that demands work and commitment. I would worry about a man's view of marriage if he started talking about a pre-nup, it seems like he is trying to set up a way out for when he stops trying to make the marriage work, or that he is not sure that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me, or that he doesn't love or trust me enough to feel comfortable enough to feel that it is not a risk to marry me. I would honestly take the proposition as either an insult or as an indication that he does not love or trust me enough to know that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me. It would make me constantly worry that marriage did not mean the same thing to him as it does to me, it would seem like an indication that he would consider leaving me. I may be old fashioned, but my parents have been married for over 35 years and they do not have to worry about what will happen if they leave one another, because they will not turn back on the commitment that they made. The fact that they don't have a prenup means that they do not worry about the individual in the marriage, they work towards what is the best for our family. When you get married, you stop doing what is best for yourself; you do what is best for your family-having something like a pre-nup almost works against that ideal. How can you form a single unit with a person when you have to constantly worry about the conflicting result of doing what is best for yourself (as if you were alone) and what is best for your family. At one point you should be able to say that you just do whatever is best for all of you, even if that means self sacrifice, without worrying that you are potentially destroying your future security by doing so. It would also constantly give me a feeling of insecurity as it proves that he doesn't believe that his love is strong enough to last, or that he cares enough to ensure that he will continue to do all he can to make me love him.

I may feel differently about it because I see marriage as something permanent that should not be entered into lightly, and my parents have been together through some very tough times. My ex's parents were also together for 30+ years, and the man I am seeing now also has parents that loved and stood by one another until his father died.

I am also coming from a slightly different situation, both my partner and I are at the start of our careers so neither has much to lose and, if I look realistically at my last relationship, my ex and I were only able to stay together as long as we did because we both made sacrifices and career plans for the good of our relationship and I don’t like the idea of being forced to choose one or the other."

Jus wondering wat u's thought.

The woman that wrote this used:

"Worry": 6 times
"Feel": 4 times
"THINK": Once

Women FEEL that they need a lot of crap that they don't. They never THINK about if they can afford it or not.

Men THINK about purchases because it sucks to FEEL broke. Men also THINK that marrying a broke woman will make them FEEL broke, which sucks. Thus, the need for a pre-nup.

 

[RedPill]

awesome points, everyone should read and understand this.

very few people can predict where they will be in 20 years. But more likely than not, you will be better off and more successful. God forbid you end up successful in business or anything else without a prenup. Even to get investors or just a loan or reinsure - not having one can make things more complicated, because in a business situation nobody wants to deal with a divorce or a death after which the wife gets control of business assets or anything else like that.

So thats my excuse personally. Easy and logical reason for you to have a prenup - for business/career reasons. Very few women would be able to argue against that, because that means they are interfering with your success.

It's a personal requirement of mine that any chick I would get into a LTR with must be capable of being a wealthy person's woman. That means she can dress and act classy, doesn't speak like she belongs on mtv, understands the mindset of wealth, and has a basic understanding of how business works. Included in that understanding of business are things like planning for the future, making wise decisions, etc. With this in mind, she damn well better get what a prenup is for.

 

[Egoist]

It's a personal requirement of mine that any chick I would get into a LTR with must be capable of being a wealthy person's woman. That means she can dress and act classy, doesn't speak like she belongs on mtv, understands the mindset of wealth, and has a basic understanding of how business works. Included in that understanding of business are things like planning for the future, making wise decisions, etc. With this in mind, she damn well better get what a prenup is for.

yes yes and yes.

same here. one of the things that I miss about my LTR ex was that she had an innate understanding of this - she understood what the responsibility was and could be a queen when it was required of her.

chicks like that are SOO rare and hard to find.

 

[STR8UP]

very few people can predict where they will be in 20 years. But more likely than not, you will be better off and more successful. God forbid you end up successful in business or anything else without a prenup. Even to get investors or just a loan or reinsure - not having one can make things more complicated, because in a business situation nobody wants to deal with a divorce or a death after which the wife gets control of business assets or anything else like that.

So thats my excuse personally. Easy and logical reason for you to have a prenup - for business/career reasons. Very few women would be able to argue against that, because that means they are interfering with your success.

Very good advice.

This is exactly how I would go about presenting the fact that I REQUIRE a prenup for marriage. If the chick can't understand that it is a necessary part of your business dealings then you know what you are up against right then and there.

 

[Egoist]

Very good advice.

This is exactly how I would go about presenting the fact that I REQUIRE a prenup for marriage. If the chick can't understand that it is a necessary part of your business dealings then you know what you are up against right then and there.

yup.

its interesting that Trump is totally a DJ, and thinks this way. If you read through some of his stuff, you actually find some interesting bits of wisdom, and his treatment of women is a great example. He basically believes that marrying the wrong woman can ruin a (business)man, that prenups are a must for reasons similar to the ones i've listed, and that you need to have a woman that will instinctually be a good fit to your lifestyle/business/etc.

he is also not a pvssy to admit that "if you have to work on your marriage, its not working, let it go" or something like that. Seriously, he might have some funky hair, but when it comes to women, he really knows his ****.

 

[RedPill]

chicks like that are SOO rare and hard to find.

I don't think these women are as rare as it seems sometimes, but you're not likely to meet them in the usual places, for instance hor'in it up at the local club. Chicks like this usually are only products of a very healthy (read: wealthy) background. Dad is successful. Mom is hot. She was bred to be an amazing woman. Feminine and intelligent. If these chicks want to go dancing, it's going to be somewhere nice... not the typical bar/club that crams people in like sardines and is full of cigarette smoke. You know, the places you've never been to because you don't care to spend $150 for an evening, where you might see a whole posse of women together who are 9+ on the hotness scale.

For me anyway, these are the women I'm ultimately after. She doesn't have to come from wealth, but it's likely she does. You really do have to be the prize or have extreme PUA-guru caliber game (or both) to land these chicks. My mindset is that every women I get with between now and them is just for fun and experience.

And to relate back to the topic here, the classy broad won't throw a tantrum over a prenup.

 

[Egoist]

I don't think these women are as rare as it seems sometimes, but you're not likely to meet them in the usual places, for instance hor'in it up at the local club. Chicks like this usually are only products of a very healthy (read: wealthy) background. Dad is successful. Mom is hot. She was bred to be an amazing woman. Feminine and intelligent. If these chicks want to go dancing, it's going to be somewhere nice... not the typical bar/club that crams people in like sardines and is full of cigarette smoke. You know, the places you've never been to because you don't care to spend $150 for an evening, where you might see a whole posse of women together who are 9+ on the hotness scale.

For me anyway, these are the women I'm ultimately after. She doesn't have to come from wealth, but it's likely she does. You really do have to be the prize or have extreme PUA-guru caliber game (or both) to land these chicks. My mindset is that every women I get with between now and them is just for fun and experience.

And to relate back to the topic here, the classy broad won't throw a tantrum over a prenup.

no sir, i've never been nowhere fancy, no way, im used to my country gals.. :crackup:

$150 an evening? nice place where our kind don't go filled with women that have all their teeth? Heee-haaaw boy, now you are just talking nonsense..

:crackup:

 

[Egoist]

p.s. you are absolutely clueless.

 

[RedPill]

p.s. you are absolutely clueless.

Alright, so that was a bit exaggerated but hey its good to aim high. I still hold to my main point, which is that a prenup is essential for anyone who has any ambition. That and don't settle for less than top notch women for the long term.

 

[Bible_Belt]

http://www.nomarriage.com/foreigngirl.html
The bottom picture is priceless. I can see two reasons why he married her.

 

[Latinoman]

excellent topic

 

[Colossus]

This of course says nothing of the guy who doesn't own a business, who's met with some career success post-marriage. The terrific medical intern who married his college girlfriend, makes substantially more in his career as a doctor after 20 years. At time of divorce he then owes (depending on state) up to 10 years of spousal support to her. To add insult to injury, in most settlements, she's also entitled to more financial support if his ability to earn it improves in that 10 year period. So for sake of example, lets say our divorced doctor is promoted to chief of staff for surgery in 5 years - when he gets a raise, she gets a raise.

Im glad someone resurrected this thread.

The above applies to me perfectly, and i find myself thinking about it more seriously as i go on with school.

But its never an easy subject to broach. In fact I think for many women the requirement of a prenup would be a deal-breaker.

I think the real question is not whether or not you should get one, but how to approach it with your woman and if it will cause relational issues in the future.

 

[RedPill]

Don't sell yourself short. . .

But its never an easy subject to broach. In fact I think for many women the requirement of a prenup would be a deal-breaker.

I think the real question is not whether or not you should get one, but how to approach it with your woman and if it will cause relational issues in the future.

The reason most marriages go rotten or fall apart completely is because they do not involve two mature individuals who communicate effectively or had an intelligent premise as to why the marriage was a smart decision in the first place.

Most marriages involve one of the following combinations:

• male and female both with scarcity mentality-induced oneitis for each other
• male with oneitis, non-self-improving female who intuitively knows she's approaching her born-on date
• male with socially programmed belief that he has a biological clock marrying female nearing hers
• AFC male with woman who needs to secure a provider to compensate for poor life choices she's made
• young 'first loves' who still idealize marriage and don't have the requisite life experience to contemplate the realities of it
• a couple from a small town / rural area with old-school values who are conditioned to believe they're supposed to be married no later than age 22
• attempting to dignify an accidental pregnancy
• legitimizing a sexual relationship and/or live-in arrangement in the eyes of a religion
• an older, wealthier man taking advantage of a naïve younger woman, or vice versa (where it's the naïve older man who's being taken advantage of)

In the above scenarios, the couples are not pair-bonded based on complimentary qualities that foster a healthy and synergistic relationship together, but rather on complimentary fears that compensate for individual weaknesses.

Would you guys agree this describes most new marriages?

If I'm ever at a point in my life where I'm contemplating marriage, which certainly isn't foreseeable over at least the next decade, it would be to a woman that doesn't live in the matrix, doesn't believe in any of that 'soulmate' scarcity mentality horseshït, and isn't seeking marriage to cover herself for some character deficiencies or poor choices she's made. She'll also possess the ability to articulately communicate her thoughts and feelings like a grown-up. The requisite maturity which makes her a marriage candidate in the first place would be the same maturity which allows her to understand the self-evident necessity of a pre-nuptial conversation. Res ipsa loquitur. The thing speaks for itself.

Marriage is serious business, especially given the legal complexities and, if you're a man, the personal liabilities involved with it in modern times. Any man who doesn't hold himself and the women he would contemplate marriage with to this same standard is selling himself short.

While some would just as soon attribute the decline in successful marriages to cultural shifts toward the feminine and our ever-increasing exposure to more perceptively attractive options (both likely contributing factors), I think it has much more to do with the fact that the increasing strains on a person's time and attention from modern demands is eroding time and attention that would otherwise be spent on activities that facilitate personal maturation.