Is My Recent Ex- Girlfriend Worth Fighting For?

[Aztec]

Wow! This is one real field report. Not just how we score with the broad across the bar. This is why we have this forum, the real thing: how to face pain and dealing with it.


I guess most of us had this experience at one point or another. The positive side is she was not a total ho about the whole situation. Nonetheless, it still freaking hurts.


E-Z have this one on the money. Distract yourself from her for a while -- maybe the hardest task. But time will heal the pain. Trust me.


I hate to say that the greatest revenge is she seeing you with another woman. ie. walking noncholantly within her line of sight (as if you didn't see her) with your new arm candy. She'll have thoughts like you're not the "nice guy" that she viewed all this time afterall.

And then when she asks you who was that new girl, just say, "Oh just a friend." Then IMMEDIATELY changing the subject to how is everything working for her. I know you may be tempted to prolong the convo because she still is "the one", but concentrate my child. But bail out the conversation ASAP, because u da man and have things to do (like wallow in the past, j/k).


I can't elaborated more since I second E-Z Rider's advice.


Good luck, my brother-at-arms.




Aztec

 

[Aramas]

Well it sounds to me like the original post was about a guy that was too passive and the chick got tired of wearing the pants. If she wanted a b!tch she'd go for someone with tits

 

[b's nuts]

hate to break it to you, but what you described is what every girl will say they want, but in reality, she wants a bad boy. they all do. if you aren't wearing the man pants in the relaitonship, then she is, and what she is looking for, is a man, not someone to boss around. You said she was a virgin, did you even try to fvck her? My bets would be that this guy at least tries, because in the end all of it, you need to go by their actions, not their words because they will fill you with bull sh*t.

 

[jwhite17]

Here's something I forgot to tell you guys, she didn't feel any attraction whatsoever to her ex-boyfriend(She called him, "My bytch"), until 6 MONTHS after the relationship, then after two years of being with him she didn't have those "feelings" for him anymore and broke up with him. Then about 3 months later, she did get back with him but then ended it again because he was so much of a pushover doing whatever she wanted. I don't want that do happen; I want the power back. Anyways, onto the comments:

Newman said,

Now, let's assume the rolls were revesed. Let's assume she was leaving him for you - what would he say?

That's a great point because I'm in a one-itis transe, and I'm not acting like myself. I know this is not how I'm suppose to act, but she is not like a girl I met and went out with a couple of times. My longest relationship before this was only one month, so I haven't been in a situation where the girl broke up with me. Yea, I can read about it hear, but it is different when it happens to YOU personally, and you start doing things you normally wouldn't do.

Newman said,

If this is the kind of woman that you want to be with, then when she wants to come back, you must give her little leeway - she must know that you will not tollerate her crap - and that you will throw her to the curb should she fvck up again...

This is good advice, and I will take it because if I do give her another chance I will make sure she doesn't get the best of me(or my heart) again. I appreciate your help Newman.

Clooney said,

I think most guys have been burnt by a girl at one stage in their life, but in the long run you will just look back on it, see all your mistakes and think, HOW THE FUKC was I once so much of an AFC!

I know dude, and I think I have so much attachment toward her because I haven't dated as many girls as I would like to(probably about 10-12 my whole life(after I found this website!)). So, I use her as a standard to be compared to other girls I have met, gone out with, friends, etc, and she beats them, but I still could definitely try harder to meet more girls with CA's, friends, and parties.

E-Z Rider said,

Look at what she does, not what she says. Her actions are being controlled by her animal-level conciousness...and her animal-level conciousness is ruled with an iron fist by ATTRACTION. Her "normal" conciosness is confused, and this makes what she says essentially worthless.

I can't believe I kept on analyzing what she says to me because her actions tell everything. I glad you reminded me because I was so focused on her words.

Who has the power in a relationship? The one who is attracted to the other one the LEAST/ the one with more options. She is IT for you, and she knows it, so she knows she has the upper hand b/c she has two guys to choose from. When you start developing options, she loses that upper hand. When you detach yourself from her, she LOSES that upper hand.

I will take up your advice, and I will focus more on myself.

Surfboard said,

I'll bump it up for you and see if you can get anything out of it.

I'll take a look at that post.

Bungo Pony said,

However, when the man takes control of the situation and leads it into the direction he wants, she has no control over the status of the "relationship".

Well, I think I should rephrase that for you. She believes in being friends with the guy first then the friend could become the boyfriend. She doesn't go out and date a couple of random guys who get her number and then after dating for awhile it matures into an LTR. Also, she won't ask the guy to be her boyfriend; she expects the man to ask her(like is has from all her boyfriends(2 before me)).

Well, I did have control during the whole relationship up until the point where she broke up with me. I wasn't needy, desperate, giving gifts, calling her up all the time, saying "I love you" a hundred times, and I went some days without talking to her or seeing her to. She would even get mad at me for not calling her too. I always planned out the dates and exactly what we were going to do when we would do it.

Bungo said,

This is the funniest sh1t you'll ever hear from a woman, and it also indicates what you're doing wrong. She's not missing you when the two of you are apart. Women need you to give them the gift of missing you. If it's not present in the relationship, all she'll be feeling is nice an happy. Women get bored of feeling the same thing when they're with a guy. Whether you face it or not, women need emotional change which is why she's going for Mr. Badass. He does a lot of sh1t she hates, but all the bad stuff he does causes emotional change which women live for.

I do admit I got a little lazy later in the relationship, and I didn't get to do the things I was planning to do with her like skydiving, clubbing, ice skating, basketball(because of the lack of a car and the weather but I should have tried harder), and I think she got in a stagnate state which this guy brings new emotions into her that I haven't done since the beginning of the relationship when she thought I was a player/man-*****/womenizer after telling I approach women all the time and go out with more than one.

squirrels said,

Damned right she is...would YOU want to be romantically involved with someone if you didn't feel "that emotion"?

Dude, she did feel that gut-level attraction toward me in the beginning of the relationship for sure! Then with time she lost the attraction or feelings or whatever you want to call it. I didn't feel "that emotion" until probably the end of the relationship; if she broke up with me in the first two months I probably wouldn't have been as attached and behave like I'm now.

You want to win HER back. I say you need to win YOURSELF back.

Again, I never gave up myself for her. I wasn't clingy; I had my hobbies(sports, lifting, painting, reading), life(school, work, clubs), dreams and ambitions(want to be a top real estate developer). I NEVER gave up anything for her; I still had my own life just with her added on. I stilled studied for my tests, lifted weights, painted, focused on my current and long term goals the whole time the relationship. She even said "you probably spend more time studying than with me." BUT I do get your point, and I will refocus and get myself back on track.

Well it sounds to me like the original post was about a guy that was too passive and the chick got tired of wearing the pants

Believe me, I wasn't her ***** whipped slave boy like her ex-boyfriend who she use to call, "My bytch!" She didn't try to control me, and if she ask me for anything, I would always respond with something like, "What do I get in return?" NOT "Yes, my sweet little GF, whatever you wish I will do."

hate to break it to you, but what you described is what every girl will say they want, but in reality, she wants a bad boy. they all do. if you aren't wearing the man pants in the relaitonship, then she is, and what she is looking for, is a man, not someone to boss around. You said she was a virgin, did you even try to fvck her? My bets would be that this guy at least tries, because in the end all of it, you need to go by their actions, not their words because they will fill you with bull sh*t.

I think she just wants a bad boy temporary but not for the long term; she just wants to have fun and see the field.

 

[mindbreaker]

first of all, i didnt read through the whole thread so maybe i am repeating someone else now.

anyways, i feel sorry for ur loss. its always tough, if one makes the split in the relationship when the other one expects it at the least...that was u in that case.

however, i think its simply a matter that she is not mature yet. she has that image of man in her mind she feel attracted at the most, but yet is not certain about it.

u know what most of the girls i dated or hooked up told me? they told me that they dont understand themselves...why they r dating me, cuz i never were their type...usually it wasnt for the looks...it was or is for the person i am...i am a chain smoker...i drink..not regularly but every now and again, but when i drink i drink heavily....and i enjoy fvcking partying....i simply embody all the qualities a girl wouldnt like when commiting to a LTR.

nevertheless, all of them loved me...AND all of my ex-gf still love me and i could get them back if i wanted to.

but....i am smart, i know how to talk to girls, i know how to make them love and i know how to listen. i know how to make them happy when they r sad...lets say...i simply know how to deal with them...thats why they love(d) me.

what i am trying to say is....probably u r resembling the image of a very good guy...nice looks, commited to urself and ur work, u do sports and probably u r interesting too.

but lets keep it real...women like ur attributes and they dont like it either. they have nothing to complain about...and they just fvcking love to complain and argue...and to nag. maybe they cant nag u...i found..especially in a relationship, its important to do actions that just p*ss her off! actions she simply doesnt like..no matter what it is..if its u talking or flirting with other girls..if its u not paying attention to her needs....and so on. they just need it. women dont want to have THE PERFECT MAN OR RELATIONSHIP...what could they tell their friends if everything was perfect? what could they gossip about? they probably like it for the first couple of months but after a while it gets boring. i have this one female friend of mine complaining to me..a while after she broke off with her bf...she told me exactly that...she told me that there was never a reason to argue with her former boyfriend and she just disliked the whole thing after a while exactly for that reason.

anyways...there can be many reasons for ur split. but the best thing certainly is not to worry and next her. if she sees u enjoying urself with another person, she will realize what she had lost...its always like that...humans always want what they dont have

take it easy

 

[myfriendblu]

Jwhite,
Do I even need to dig up my old posts telling you
1. That your to young for a LTR
2. That you need to date around more and become a better DJ, grow up more and become more mature

Sorry buddy, but I TOLD YOU SO.

Tried to tell ya, but you didn't want to listen. I could see this coming a MILE away. To bad you couldn't. Been there, done that my friend.

Dude, don't even sweat this loss. Your a great looking, young DJ in training. Move on buddy, greener pastures are ahead. Trust me on this one, i guarantee Im right

 

[jwhite17]

myfriendblu,

Do I even need to dig up my old posts telling you

No you don't, I remember that you told me not to jump into a LTR so fast and I should date around. You were right all along, but I seriously thought she was different than 99% of girls I have come in contact with. She wasn't the hottest girl I have ever seen(7.5-8), but she had a different personality than any girl I have meet. Now, I beginning to wonder, is she really that different than any other girl her age(19)?

Your a great looking, young DJ in training. Move on buddy, greener pastures are ahead

Thanks for the support, I will get through this for sure no matter what! Hmm, maybe I should start another Cold Approach Journal.
Later,
JW

 

[myfriendblu]

Originally posted by jwhite17
I seriously thought she was different than 99% of girls I have come in contact with. Now, I beginning to wonder, is she really that different than any other girl her age(19)?

Jwhite,
One great lesson, probably the most important lesson that i learned first here on this site a few years ago, was that, in general, all women are pretty much similar, operate under similar rules and think alike. Sure, a girl that was abused and came from poor/drug/alcohol backround is gonna be different than a girl that came from a stable/loving/caring/wealthy backround,. but those are the extremes. Excluding major tramatic events, 99 percent of the girls in this world think alike, act alike and can be DJ'ed alike. They all operate on similar rules, just like a mathematical problem. Yes, its a difficult pill to swallow, but you have got to get past that.

My advise to you is to date around a little, heck, even get a non-serious girlfriend if you wanna. However, focus on YOU. BE SELFISH. You come first, your school/job/hobbies/workout/friends/events are the most important thing in your life right now, not the girl your seeing/dating/screwing. Do that, think rationally, trust your GUT INSTINCT, not your heart, and you will be fine. trust me.

Bottom line - no girl at 19 is LTR material. Not a single one in this entire world. Id bet on that with anyone.

 

[Ashlee Angel]

JW I think you should NEXT! DUDE, JUST GO DATE AROUND.


But for real I was just in your shoes two months ago. I met this girl she was everything I was looking for and more.

When we first met I was my normal charming and witty self. I charmed her pants off but then I started to like her and I stopped playing hard to get.

Once my feelings got in the way she lost intrest.

She wanted the chase and once she got you she got bored. So more than likely she will do the same thing to the new guy.

It sucks but the best thing you can do is move on and date around until you cannot remember her name.

Lucky I was only with this chick for a couple of weeks. You on the other hand was with this chick for a few months.

I am still in my LTR with my gf of 11 months. And their have been times when I have broke up with her and had to go back because the realtionship ment something.

I see you really like this girl so my advice is try ONE more time to make things work. If not back to those 50 approaches .

 

[Señor Fingers]

Originally posted by jwhite17
over the course of the summer, I try to know her by taking a walk with her and talking about everything, tubing, burrito place(she paid!), watching movies, working out, etc and I was still seeing other girls.

You showed her a great time and remained a challenge, nice!

So, August 6 rolls around, and I tell her, “I want you to be my girlfriend,”

WARNING!! WARNING!! Mystery levels depleting!

Think about this...
The reason she wanted you in the first place was *drumroll* BECAUSE SHE COULDNT HAVE YOU!

I never ask a girl if she wants to "go steady" I usually wait for her to bring it up, then I treat it like a sh!t test..

HER: Can we be exclusive?
ME: Hmmmm....I really dont know yet ... anyways like I was saying..

In the beginning it is best to keep her guessing!

I find that once you put a label on a relationship, it really kills the magic. Even if you are exclusive with a girl, dont tell her how you feel until you get a decent foundation, we are talking months here. The whole time she should realize that she still has competition, even if you are faithful.

Also, the only reason I asked her after knowing her for about a month and a half was that she was leaving to go to RA training for two straight weeks

Think of how those 2 weeks would have been for her if you had not told her. She would not have been able to get her mind off you!

She stayed loyal to me, and swore she would never cheat on me

What is this, elementary school? Did she "pinky swear"? This means absolutely nothing. Women say the damndest things sometimes...funny how it often TOTALLY CONFLICTS with what they actually do!

I would always focus on myself by studying for my classes, painting landscapes, reading business and academic books, working out, and I always got to what I wanted.

Excellent!

She said that, “she doesn’t see us working out in the long run, “ and “I love you like a best friend.” The thing about that comment is that she said, “I love you first(like three weeks before)” and I felt as if she meant it. Also, she said that “I don’t feel in love with you, and I want to be in love.”

*shakes head*

This is CLASSIC ********. Would you like a translation? Okay...

Well, at first I thought I loved you because I felt I couldnt have you and sought to validate myself by turning a womanizer into a devoted lover. But now I feel different because you are far too readily available and it is a turn-off. I want the mystery man I fell in love with!

So I go over to her place on Monday, I ask some questions,

*slaps forehead* DOH!

The best thing to do when a girl gives you the "i´m not sure if I love you" speech is to be totally cool, tell her to think about it, and then VANISH! Give her a chance to MISS YOU!

Last Tuesday, she calls me up and asks if I want to go to lunch(of course, did she need to ask that silly question), and I say yea sure.

So you were readily available for her AGAIN... starting to notice a pattern here?

she does that whole 360 body language reversal on me again. She tells me that she feels feelings for another man let’s call him GF-Stealer. She tells me about how GF-Stealer makes her feel even though he has only known her for a month and a half. She even knows that he smokes pot, drinks alcohol, smokes cigarettes, and he might be a player that will just use her which she hates.

Another case of talking the talk but walking a totally different path. She doesnt hate being used...she LOVES it! It gives her the emotional drama she craves as a woman. Cant you see that this guy represents the bad-ass mystery you once were?

Yet, she ended the conversation with , “I want to take a break with you and see if I will miss you and there is a chance we could get back together.”

Of course! I saw this coming a mile away.

Again, I ask her why about everything

Sorry dude...you fuct up again. The best response would have been UNFAZED. Look at her as if it doesnt bother you and say " Alrighty then. If thats really how you feel.." Then LEAVE and make her wonder about you ... Women LOVE to wonder. My bet is she would flip out and not let you leave like that.

One of the most attractive qualities you can have as a man is the willingness to walk away!

Also, she even admitted that I did everything right and that I have everything she wants(looks, morals, honesty, ambition,etc)!

She only says this because you are forcing her to think logically. We both know women follow their hearts, not their minds...

I know she has all the power because she has the choice, but what should I do?

Take that power back. It is not hers to take away from you! Start seeing other women, not so much for a rebound relationship, but to show that she is easily replaced. If you let her see that she has broken your heart, you have lost all the power. Dont fall into this trap! Start distancing yourself. No phonecalls, no emails, NOTHING. Give her the gift of missing you...this is what she has wanted all along but you were too eager to please.

In the future, with this girl, or any other for that matter, dont be so readily available. Women get turned off by men they can control. You have to reframe the situation so that YOU are the one in the drivers seat at all times. She wants to meet you for lunch? Its cool to meet her sometimes, but be UNPREDICATABLE too! On some days tell her you would love to but you can´t because other pressing matters await. Dont let her run your show!

Sometimes its good to make a woman compete for your attention, whether it be with your job, time with your friends, your hobby. She will be wondering about you the whole time...which is a good thing!

Finally, dont be so hard on yourself. This is your first relationship. You are bound to fukk up royally...in fact it is expected. Like everything else in life, let this be a lesson.

Good Luck, and keep ya head up dawg. You know you are a master of approaches and there are tons of great girls out there waitin for ya, so what are you waiting for? Go get em!

peace

FINGZ

 

[jbbrain]

fingers..you really play up this whole "mystery" thing in your reply, I find it contradicts your shattering the limits post about how women dont always want the don juan.

What gives? Is the only difference in the fact that he has been seeing her for only a short time and therefore should continue "playing the game"?

 

[Señor Fingers]

Originally posted by jbbrain
fingers..you really play up this whole "mystery" thing in your reply, I find it contradicts your shattering the limits post about how women dont always want the don juan.

What gives? Is the only difference in the fact that he has been seeing her for only a short time and therefore should continue "playing the game"?

Women DONT always want a Don Juan who follows a guidebook of conduct. I have really been thinking about this lately and I have figured out that it is because this supposed Don is PREDICTABLE!

predictable --------> boooooring!

That post was meant to celebrate the multifaceted heritage of mankind. There was nothing multifaceted about jwhite´s approach to this situation. In fact, he was pretty damn predictable in the sense that he ALWAYS made time for this chick. She would only have to SUGGEST "jump" and this guy would be like "how high?"

Where is the intrigue in this relationship?

Whenever you see me talk about mystery, dont think about silly rules like waiting 4 days to call, etc. Think spontenaeity, complexity, you are a loose cannon she cant quite put her finger on. You have a life that does not revolve around her!

It doesnt just work on women either.. how many times has a girl driven you crazy by doing the exact same thing?

This is all part of the inital dance. Of course you can open up more as time progresses, but 1 or 2 months is not enough time to start giving your life away to someone. Trust has to be EARNED, not sworn on.

Also, think about how jwhite attracted this girl in the first place. She loves to work for attention!

 

[jbbrain]

agreed.

Thwn were both on the same premise. The co-called "games" should not actually be used as such. They work much better when they're infused naturally (as a product) in your "being" because you're a man living your own life.

 

[Señor Fingers]

Originally posted by jbbrain
agreed.

Thwn were both on the same premise. The co-called "games" should not actually be used as such. They work much better when they're infused naturally (as a product) in your "being" because you're a man living your own life.

Beautifully said! (minus that one typo there )

 

[LouieVaton Don]

You should be knowing that you are worth fighting for, she is deluded. You dont find what your looking for and just give it up do you? In my opinion this is garbage and it is something you should come to expect from females. They dont know what they want brah. You got in too deep with this chick, I kind of understand(been there, done that) that youve never been this far in a relationship but dont get happy feet. Doing so will take the challenge along with the mystery right out of the relationship, essentials.
You said it yourself youve only had 2 other girlfriends, why dont you get you some more. You'll eventually get hip to the game, unless your a complete idiot. Also something tells me that you didnt even make a sexual pass at this chick, i mean even if(and this is a BIG if)she was going to wait till she was married at least turn her on man. No wonder she thinks your her friend, her little buddy, you were always there, always on time.


If you really want her though. I'd suggest you withdraw now and become hard to find for awhile she might come looking, during that time you should gain experience points(hey like a video game!). My real suggestion though is to get some new prospects to recruit, just for fun.

 

[syemour]

Originally posted by Ice Cold
As a firm beleiver in love, I think you can win her over.

Act now. Buy her a bouqet of roses and some chocolates. Come in her room, stand on one knee and say that you love her.

She will be so happy she will take you back. Tell her how much you care about her and how she makes you feel.

lol. his name says it all.

 

[Ice Cold]

So much text! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

 

[Rahul]

Originally posted by jwhite17
So, August 6 rolls around, and I tell her, “I want you to be my girlfriend,” and she said yes. She is exactly what I wanted in a girl at the time: Christian(for the morals), virgin, good body, works out, loves sports, likes to eat, likes doing what I like to do, smart, funny, and likes me for me.

She even told me what she looks for in a guy; he has to be smart, good body, believes in G-d, his friends like her, dark hair and dark eyes, taller than her, doesn’t drink or smoke at all or much(especially not smoking because of her mom’s addiction to cigarettes), trustworthy, likes her for who she is not just because of her body, has goals and ambitions, and she wants someone who can stand up for her too. I fulfill all those traits and more, and I would always focus on myself by studying for my classes, painting landscapes, reading business and academic books, working out, and I always got to what I wanted.

So she's a good girl. And she TOLD you she wants a good guy.

She tells me that she feels feelings for another man let’s call him GF-Stealer. She tells me about how GF-Stealer makes her feel even though he has only known her for a month and a half.

She even admits that, “I don’t see him and me working out in the long run.” She told me she doesn’t casual date people, but she makes them friends and goes from their. She even knows that he smokes pot, drinks alcohol, smokes cigarettes, and he might be a player that will just use her which she hates. She also found out that he even admitted to her, “I wanted to steal you away from your boyfriend.”(What the hell is this?)

But she really doesn't.

Like most chicks she wants a jerk, but her upbringing cant allow her to admit it.

Yet, she ended the conversation with , “I want to take a break with you and see if I will miss you and there is a chance we could get back together.” Again, I ask her why about everything, and she said, “I don’t know, I’m just going with my feelings and taking a risk and I don’t know if I’m making the right decision.” Also, she even admitted that I did everything right and that I have everything she wants(looks, morals, honesty, ambition,etc)!

You shouldn't pressure her, it will only drive her away. Also you made a mistake by being the one to ask her for commitment, SHE's supposed to be asking YOU for commitment, not the other way around. She's a college girl, she just wants to go wild. Not exactly the good little virgin church girl you thought she was now is she?

If she does leave you, go to this guy, get ****ed and then get dumped then dont take her back on any terms. She's gonna go to this guy and loose her virginity, you seem to value that in a girl so why take back a slvt? Don't become a captain save-a-hoe, all signs point to her leaving you so just deal with it. FTOW and then decide if you're really in love with this girl or just in love with the fact that she hasn't been deflowered yet. Chances are that after you FTOW you wont even remember her name.

Dont take her back once she leaves you, because slvts dont deserve love.

 

[Survivor]

jwhite, sorry for the slow response. I took a break from sosuave (highly reccommended) and hadn't logged in for a while. Anyway, back to your situation.

Like the others have said, your song has been by sung every guy on this forum with any real life experience. You may think its an original composition but it isn't.

Some years ago I wrote a post called "The Relationship Begins Before You Meet Her". Its now in the DJ Bible and is a "must read" classic. In it, I implied that guys should write out what they believe their future LTR woman should be, then improve themselves in order to attract such a woman. After a few more years of experience I've concluded that this was BAD ADVICE.

Jwhite, when you met your ex, and got to know a little about her (too little IMO), you took all the hopes and dreams you had for a future wife, then projected those hopes and dreams onto the girl's body....and viola, instant oneitis. And of course all that happened next was classic "LJBF" history.

I think yours is a classic case of projecting your own high interest level onto the female. We can avoid this by ..... (drum roll)....

....not having any standards to project. Let me explain.

Well, one of the cool things about being engaged is that you get to see women for what they are. Women. Not HB8.5236s. Women. Not Sunshine Girls. Women. Not even LTR material. Women. Women are women are women. They are not physical representations of your imagination.

Your standards for women are only that. YOUR standards. They are representations of ourselves, not women. And if you noticed in your initial post, you were very descriptive of your preferences for an LTR girlfriend, however YOUR interpretation of HER standards proved to be inaccurate. Thats because they were not her standards, but instead a regurgitation of YOUR own standards.

When you talk to a girl, don't have any preconceived expectations. She may not meet them and you could miss out on a great girl. Or she could meet them, only to find out that your judgement of her was wrong, which happened in your case.

Like the others said, resume your cold approaches. But this time, don't go out searching for a "good girl". Instead search for a girl that you respond to favorably, which could be any kind of girl. For now, set aside your standards and taste every flavor in the ice cream shop. You might be surprised what you learn about yourself.

Hope that helps,

Survivor

 

[jwhite17]

Thanks for everyone who has replied, I appreciate all the different opinions because it helps me see through another viewpoint besides my own. I'll give some comments later tonight.
JW