Is it worth taking martial arts, if you dont learn the whole system?

[muttley]

i do jiujitsu so let me add here.

First of all its not gracie jiujitsu that i study but we grapple alot. There ae kicks/punches also. The higher belts teach you to handle more than 1 person. Black belt involves weapon training.

IMO, if you dont know how grapple then your not getting very far. Most people in a fight grab the other in a headlock or try to pin em on the floor. Well, grab me in a headlock ( front or behind ) and ill end up twisting your arm in an armlock. If your trying to pin me to the floor or strangle me, ill flip you round and have in an arm bar. I could snap your wrist or pop your elbow joint. I doubt youd want to carry on fighting me then.

I swear if we go toe to toe ill take you to the ground in 5 seconds. Once one the ground YOUR MINE!. I grapple with guys who are 40lbs heavier than me and guys who are 10lb lighter than me. Guess what? the best grappler is a guy who wieghs about 150lb, 21 yr old. He studies bjj too.

jiujitsu is VERY POWERFUL

 

[ScrewIt]

Juijitsu is very powerful i agree, but only under certain circumstances as do all martial arts. IMO it still is overrated. There are so much great and even better martial arts out there that you guys are missing out on.

Bullmoose is right, in a street fight there are no rules, no limits. So anything can happen and expect the unexpected.
in those dumb UFC tournaments there are set rules. And unfortunately does not measure a person's true potential to survive/win in a duel. Such rules is they dont allow lethal moves, such as those being eye gouging, and those relating to injuring the nuts....which are prohibited.

And a lot of martial arts include eye gouging and injuring the nuts.
And in addition sometimes in those tournament, one oponent might wear shorts, the other wears long pants...which is already unfair, cause there are certain moves you're able to do if your oponent wears pants. So in a real street fight, the guys fighting would most likely be wearing pants.

 

[Jay-X]

Originally posted by manuva
How constructive.

Bullmoose knows his drills.

In a real fight - and JayX you still don't seem to understand what a real fight involves - there is no time to adopt styles and techniques. You either inflict maximum pain in minimum time, or you receive maximum pain in minimum time.

Yes, there are some aggressive martial arts out there. Whoopee. There seems to be a general consensus on this board that Muay Thai and BJJ will make you invincible. Newsflash, it won't.

Most of the guys here seem to base their arguments on "their friend who did 2 years of Muay Thai and bashed some guy who did some other fight style". Great. In that specific set of circumstances, some guy was able to utilise one style to better effect than another. Hooray. That doesn't mean it applies across the board.

I've been bashed, and I've done some bashing. It's all good. What I'm saying - and what bullmoose is saying - is that streetfights don't follow rules, and so learning to fight to a specific set of rules and formulas is not going to save your arse. Yeah, Muay Thai is pretty good once you get into stance and face your opponent. What if he comes from behind? What if there's more than one? What if your opponent comes at you with pure, unadulterated aggression that you've never previously encountered? What if?

For fast answers, and fast stopping power, consulting the head bouncer is a great idea. With 2 or 3 brutal moves in your trick bag, and pure raw aggression, you stand a very good chance of dropping guys who insist on trying to fight in the style they've 'learnt'.

I'm sure submission holds are great. I've never tried one. Either the situation demands you break his arms, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, why are you fighting? I'm sure your muay thai defence is fantastic, but I bet it'll fall to pieces after I've bitten your nose off and mashed your eyeball to pulp with my thumb.

That is the reality of streetfighting. And believe me, bullmoose knows his streetfighting drills. The soldier in him stands out a mile away, and you can tell he speaks from experience. You wanna know anything about fighting JayX, bullmoose here is the guy to ask. And if he decides to speak, shut up and listen. Don't piss him off with "yeah but my friend blah blah blah". Just shut up and listen. Because you're talking to someone who knows.

And Jayx, your friends who've done whatever art for 2 years aren't invincible. Yes they can be brought down. Because they've done some basic training in technique doesn't mean they've learnt speed, aggression or surprise. I served with some guys who considered those three attributes their lifeline to survival, and they are often the difference between surviving and succumbing. If things went nasty in a club or similar social setting, I guarantee I could tear your friends trachea (throat) or pop some ribs before they could assume an effective fight stance. And no, its not hard to learn.

Listen to bullmoose, he's a seasoned digger who knows his drills.

1st. I don't live in a ghetto, or in a 3rd world country or whatever, so I'm never gonna be involved in a fight with 20 mafia guys against me, or against somebody who's gonna shoot me.

2nd. Do you really think that somebody you are fighting against because of a girl will try to blind you or to kill you? C'mon, man... Don't steal a mobster's girlfriend and you'll be ok. Be real

3rd. I know that many people could bring my friends down, but turning my words around doesn't mean that you're right and i'm wrong. Did I say that they are invincible? No, I just said that nobody with no fighting skills will learn to bring them down in one night.

4th. If you live somewhere where people tear other people's throats, gauge eyeballs or bite other people's noses in a club fight, I agree that Muay Thai won't help you. Just bring a knife, or be prepared to learn Krav Maga, BJJ, Muay Thai and do some boxing training if you are against weapons.

5th. Where I live, fights usually occurr this way: You do something wrong to somebody. You meet him. You start arguing about that thing. He pushes you. You pushes him back. Somebody throws the first punch and then it's punches, holds, kicks and locks until somebody else manages to drag you away one from the other. If somebody uses a gun or even a knife, the police will get there in a couple of minutes and gets his @ss to jail, so there's a really slim chance of somebody using any sort of weapons.

 

[diplomatic_lies]

I've noticed there is 1 big difference between organised "ring" fights and fights in bars:

In the ring, they have rules, you can't throw a punch until the bell sounds, etc.

In the bar, someone could brain you with a full wine bottle or a steel bar stool before you even know they're there.

I once had a friend, great with kung fu (black belt, learnt for over a decade), who got knocked out by a guy he'd pissed off in a bar. All his kung-fu moves didn't prepare him for a brick in the head in a dingy bar full of people. The guy was gone by the time someone even noticed anything was wrong.

 

[Jay-X]

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
I've noticed there is 1 big difference between organised "ring" fights and fights in bars:

In the ring, they have rules, you can't throw a punch until the bell sounds, etc.

In the bar, someone could brain you with a full wine bottle or a steel bar stool before you even know they're there.

I once had a friend, great with kung fu (black belt, learnt for over a decade), who got knocked out by a guy he'd pissed off in a bar. All his kung-fu moves didn't prepare him for a brick in the head in a dingy bar full of people. The guy was gone by the time someone even noticed anything was wrong.

ok, but would he have won if a bouncer had showed him 2-3 moves? i don't think so

 

[ScrewIt]

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
I've noticed there is 1 big difference between organised "ring" fights and fights in bars:

In the ring, they have rules, you can't throw a punch until the bell sounds, etc.

In the bar, someone could brain you with a full wine bottle or a steel bar stool before you even know they're there.

I once had a friend, great with kung fu (black belt, learnt for over a decade), who got knocked out by a guy he'd pissed off in a bar. All his kung-fu moves didn't prepare him for a brick in the head in a dingy bar full of people. The guy was gone by the time someone even noticed anything was wrong.

for shame. If only he had....Spidey Sense!

 

[Phoenix_of_the_ashes]

Nothing will prepare you for a sucker punch.

 

[bullmoose]

Originally posted by Jay-X


5th. Where I live, fights usually occurr this way: You do something wrong to somebody. You meet him. You start arguing about that thing. He pushes you. You pushes him back. Somebody throws the first punch and then it's punches, holds, kicks and locks until somebody else manages to drag you away one from the other.

Forget I said anything. I thought you wanted to know about fighting.

 

[Phoenix_of_the_ashes]

Originally posted by bullmoose
Forget I said anything. I thought you wanted to know about fighting.

What in your background makes you consider yourself an authority on fighting?

 

[Jay-X]

Originally posted by bullmoose
Forget I said anything. I thought you wanted to know about fighting.

i'd like to know about fighting normal people, not insane psychos that will try to kill him for whatever reason in a club...

 

[bullmoose]

What in your background makes you consider yourself an authority on fighting?

I'm half-Sioux, raised on an Indian reservation; four years Marine Corps with expert certifications in hand-to-hand and hand-to-weapon combat; and six years consulting for humanitarian operations in Third World countries and global hot zones where all hell is breaking loose and the indigs hate Americans. I've thwarted two muggings, survived a handful of scraps in $#!+holes the world over, & weathered an attack by the Myanmar Army on a Karenni refugee camp where I was volunteering.

So forgive me if shoving matches aren't my forte.

 

[bullmoose]

Originally posted by Jay-X
i'd like to know about fighting normal people, not insane psychos that will try to kill him for whatever reason in a club...

You won't know if you're fighting an insane psycho or not until it's too late.

Do what you want.

 

[manuva]

Originally posted by Jay-X
1st. I don't live in a ghetto, or in a 3rd world country or whatever, so I'm never gonna be involved in a fight with 20 mafia guys against me, or against somebody who's gonna shoot me.

2nd. Do you really think that somebody you are fighting against because of a girl will try to blind you or to kill you? C'mon, man... Don't steal a mobster's girlfriend and you'll be ok. Be real

3rd. I know that many people could bring my friends down, but turning my words around doesn't mean that you're right and i'm wrong. Did I say that they are invincible? No, I just said that nobody with no fighting skills will learn to bring them down in one night.

4th. If you live somewhere where people tear other people's throats, gauge eyeballs or bite other people's noses in a club fight, I agree that Muay Thai won't help you. Just bring a knife, or be prepared to learn Krav Maga, BJJ, Muay Thai and do some boxing training if you are against weapons.

5th. Where I live, fights usually occurr this way: You do something wrong to somebody. You meet him. You start arguing about that thing. He pushes you. You pushes him back. Somebody throws the first punch and then it's punches, holds, kicks and locks until somebody else manages to drag you away one from the other. If somebody uses a gun or even a knife, the police will get there in a couple of minutes and gets his @ss to jail, so there's a really slim chance of somebody using any sort of weapons.

1. I don't live in a ghetto either. Whatever gave you that idea? I've never been in a fight with 20 mafia guys either. What kind of rubbish is that?

2. I never mentioned anything about fighting over women. Thats the stupidest thing you can ever do; no woman is worth it. Again, what kind of rubbish are you contriving here?

3. I assure you, people can learn to inflict grievous bodily harm on trained fighters very very quickly. I speak from experience - after my first day of Unarmed Combat Training I was capable of inflicting massive damage on trained fighters.

The problem here is that you're speculating, whereas myself and bullmoose are speaking from life experience. You've admitted you have little or no experience in this area, yet you're trying to tell us what is and is not possible.

4. I don't live somewhere where people tear throats out and gouge eyeballs. But that is how I would react if the situation demanded it. If the situation didn't demand that kind of action, then it probably didn't demand any action at all.

5. So far we haven't discussed weapons, and I'm not gonna start now. Again, you're speculating. Fights are dynamic, they are not formulaic. There is no 'standard' type of fight.

JayX, you're coming from a position of ignorance when it comes to fighting. Thats ok. It's nothing to be ashamed of - these things are undesirable at best. But asking guys who know - guys who've been there, done that - questions, and then arguing with their answers based on things you've seen, watched or read, is offensive and defeats the purpose of asking anyway.

Grow up. Either ask and respectfully acknowledge the guys who've taken the time to respond, or don't ask at all. You don't have to agree with what we've said, but if you disagree I would expect it to be due to your own personal experience, not stuff your friends have told you or that you've read in a book.

 

[manuva]

Originally posted by Jay-X
ok, but would he have won if a bouncer had showed him 2-3 moves? i don't think so

Again, you don't think so. You're speculating. Either find out for real yourself, or respect the answers of those guys who know for real themselves. Don't disagree based on a guess or whim you may have.

 

[Chillisauce]

Almost any style can be effective under one condition: Live, realistic, hard training.

Seems easy enough right? unfortunately very few actually do this.
Every single kung fu school i have been to or heard of has not included realistic sparing. (and yes it does make a difference, i have been competing for half my life and i can only think of ONE kung fu person who won his fight - and he cross-trained in MT) Same can be said of most TKD schools and karate dojos.

To reinterate what bullmoose and a few others have said: the styles that will train you to be an effective fighter are; Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ, kickboxing, Kyokushin. (if you disagree with me on this one, drop by a kyokushin dojo for a training session - felt like my first boxing week ALL over again ) There are probably a few i have missed, thats just my experience.

If you want to play ninja or pretend to be bruce lee you have my permission though, just make sure you take a weapon to a fist-fight cause your gonna need it!


'Nothing will prepare you for a sucker punch.'

Very true, most bar fights i have been involved in involve me getting hit in the back of the head and waking up a few minutes later wondering what happened.

Except one time where this guy hit me, i got up off the floor and tackled him. The 400 pound bouncer then proceeded to choke me out. Fun for the whole family

 

[Flyer]

Hey Chillisauce,

What do you mean by realistic sparring?

Where I train Kung Fu, we do sparing practice like boxing. Kicks and punches anywhere is fine, thou we try to avoid the nuts.

 

[Jay-X]

bullmoose i know i'm not talking over experience, but just suppositions. anyway, i'm sorry but i won't ever believe that my AFC classmate will be able to win over some muay thai guy, after a night of training with a bouncer... i'd have to see that to believe it

 

[Chillisauce]

Originally posted by Flyer
Hey Chillisauce,

What do you mean by realistic sparring?

Where I train Kung Fu, we do sparing practice like boxing. Kicks and punches anywhere is fine, thou we try to avoid the nuts.

I have to cram for an exam tonight so i'll make this quick.

Live training with a resisting opponent means you dont do drills where they have to attack you in a certain way. i.e at a karate place i once trained we did throws where the opponent had to go along with it (say right hand grab in your left shoulder)- i tried this in my first fight and because i hadnt been training live it didnt work. I followed the routine perfectly but he slipped out of it and proceeded to kick me in the balls

It seems like you have a good school there if you practice like boxing. Do you do plenty of padword (not so much airhitting) and go fullcontact sparring?

How well does your Kung Fu work in the ring? Do you find yourself using more boxing principles such as cross, jap and hook or does your KF translate well? I'm very interested, also what type of KF is it - Wing Chun?

 

[Chillisauce]

Originally posted by Jay-X
bullmoose i know i'm not talking over experience, but just suppositions. anyway, i'm sorry but i won't ever believe that my AFC classmate will be able to win over some muay thai guy, after a night of training with a bouncer... i'd have to see that to believe it

Depends on alot of factors, who's bigger, how much training has the MT guy had (is he lying about how good he is?) and how dirty is your friend willing to be?

I saw an untrained kid beat up a pretty good boxer once, went like this: Kid pulled the other guys shirt over his head and kneed him in the balls, then threw him to the ground and stomped his face till we pulled him off.

If that had been a fair fight the boxer would have KO'd him in a matter of seconds.

 

[Jay-X]

Originally posted by Chillisauce
Depends on alot of factors, who's bigger, how much training has the MT guy had (is he lying about how good he is?) and how dirty is your friend willing to be?

I saw an untrained kid beat up a pretty good boxer once, went like this: Kid pulled the other guys shirt over his head and kneed him in the balls, then threw him to the ground and stomped his face till we pulled him off.

If that had been a fair fight the boxer would have KO'd him in a matter of seconds.

yes, but in a situation like that, the kid has won for fighting dirty and being quicker, not after training for a single night... what i'm saying is that either you are good or bad at fighting... to improve, you need to train for at least a month, not a night

i'm not saying that training with a bouncer is useless... i'm saying that in a night you won't improve enough to beat an experienced martial artist, if BEFORE THAT NIGHT he would have won