Is it really cheating?

WestCoaster

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OK, ask your gf if it's OK then.

Hate to say it, but the guys advocating this are going to be future lounge lizards with gold chains who smell like Aqua Velva? I'll pass on taking their advice.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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This is a textbook example of why you DONT imply exclusivity and spin plates to reinforce this. It also serves to illustrate exactly why you need to be the PRIZE and date a lot of women before you become exclusive with one.
 

S1NN3R

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Scrumtulescence said:
And no, you don't need a "verbal contract" to pledge exclusivity, moron. At a certain point it's implied. Anybody with any kind of sense knows that.
Fcuk that. As soon as I say I'll be loyal, it's as good as gospel, but until that moment....

At least I'm equal opportunity though, I don't expect the girl to be totally monogamous until "the talk" either.
 

WestCoaster

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True Rollo, but it's hard to get through to these guys.

I like the definition of character as being what your actions are when no one is watching. Gotta admit, the guys advocating this, I wouldn't want as friends, co-workers, or confidents ... absolutely, no freaking way.

There's an interesting book out there called "The Sociopath Next Door."

Many on this site fit that description ... and not as in a violent sociopath, but one who has no conscious and doesn't care about others. One out of every 25 people in the world are sociopaths.
 

azanon

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That's good advise generally speaking Rollo, but its a bit besides the point of the discussion.
 

Francisco d'Anconia

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I don't think the question was asking the morality of cheating, just whether his examples were or not. We already have enough threads out there expounding on what's right or wrong.
 

azanon

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WestCoaster

You're narrow minded. Lets just be frank about it. If the OP, or someone considering this didn't care about others, they'd do it in their face, and then tell them just to hurt their feelings.

I very much care about other's feelings, and as evidence of this, it is a very rare situation that my actions end up hurting someone in RL.

Not having rules that zealots typically have does not equate into a sociopath. It equates into a thinking man; one who values logic, reason, and freethought over dogmatic views of life.

Azanon
 

azanon

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I don't think the question was asking the morality of cheating, just whether his examples were or not. We already have enough threads out there expounding on what's right or wrong.
You're right. Yes, its cheating. Next question? The real question, as you suggested and i'm sure has been covered before, is whether one cares.

Azanon
 

speed dawg

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Hold on, stop the music, timeout, flag on the play.......

I didn't say I would cheat. Matter of fact I never have and probably never will. I love my gf, and I'm with her because I want to be, not because I'm AFC and think I have to be. Let's get that straight.

This something I've been thinking about for awhile, and I think it's interesting. Geez some of you take these things personally. Hate to say it, but...

Rollo Tomassi said:
That said, the whole premise of this post only reinforces Plate Theory.
...is as wrong as it can be. I've fukked my share of girls, but I also always think about puzzy. I don't act on it, esp. now. I'm more concerned with the emotional ties vs. physical ties of sex and so on, not how to get away with cheating.
 

Vulpine

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Scrumtulescence said:
You're a grade A idiot. I've never seen someone try so desperately and so pathetically to rationalize having sex with another person and not telling their partner as "not cheating".
And you sir, are posting in the wrong forum, as demonstrated by your name calling. I'm am being the devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion. Speedo asked a question, and I understand why he asked: there is the socially accepted side, and there is the unconventional side. I'm presenting points on the unconventional "is it cheating" side.
 

You essentially upped your VALUE in her eyes by showing her that, if she wants you, she has to at times do things that you like to do. You are SOMETHING after all. You are NOT FREE. If she wants to hang with you, it's going to cost her something — time, effort, money.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

Vulpine

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WestCoaster said:
OK, ask your gf if it's OK then.
Now why in heck would I be the one to initiate the "exclusivity" discussion? You know that it would eventually get to that, right? To be fair, I have asked prior girlfriends, and some have been ok with sex on the side so long as I came home to them, believe it or not - thems the facts.

WestCoaster said:
Hate to say it, but the guys advocating this are going to be future lounge lizards with gold chains who smell like Aqua Velva? I'll pass on taking their advice.
I'm not offering advice here, I'm presenting ideas. Since you didn't answer my previous questions, I don't expect you to answer these:

WestCoaster, are you married? And, have you ever cheated on a GF?

Now, this is the "mature man's" forum here. I can tell you guys that I have cheated before. I can also tell you that maturing means your attitudes change. Did anyone bother to ask when I cheated on GF's? Perhaps it was when I was less mature, perhaps my attitude has changed.

So WestCoaster, perhaps there is no need to "get through to me".
 

Vulpine

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Let's review.

This is an interesting discussion. Noone has actually provided any counterpoints to discredit my arguments, they've only pointed to the morality/immorality social convention. I've been called an idiot, a moron, weak, and a sociopath, but noone is addressing my points.

Don't hate me for this:
Rollo Tomassi said:
I've aleady detailed in many prior posts that mate selection is a psycho-biological function that our millenias of evolution has hardwired into both sexes. So internalized and socialized is this process into our collective psyches that we rarely recognize that we're subject to these motivators even when we continually repeat the same behaviors manifested by them. So saying that we're not subject to conditions we're not, or are only vaguely aware of is a bit naive.

It's simple deductive logic to follow that for a species to survive it must provide it''s offspring with the best possible conditions to ensure it's survival - either that or to reproduce in such quantity that it ensures survival. The obvious application of this for women is sharing parental investment with the best possible mate her own genetics allow her to attract and who can provide long term security for her and their potential offspring. Thus women are the filters of their own reproduction where as men's reproductive methodology is to scatter as much of his genetic material as humanly possible to the widest available quantity of fertile females. He of course has his own criteria for mating selection and determining the best genetic hosts for his reproduction (she's gotta be hot), but this criteria is certainly less discriminating than that for women (i.e. no ones ugly after 2am). This is evidenced in our own hormonal biology; men posess 17 times the amount of testosterone women do and women produce substantially more estrogen and oxytocin than men.

That stated, both of these methodologies conflict in practice. For a woman to best ensure the survival of her young a man must necessarily abandon his method of reproduction. This then sets an imperative for him to pair with a woman who will satisfy his methodology. A male must sacrifice his reproduction schedule to satisfy that of the woman he pairs with. With so much genetic potential at stake on his part of the risk, he want's not only to ensure that she is the best possible candidate for breeding with, but also to know that his progeny will benefit form both parents involvement.

One interesting outcome of this psycho-biological dynamic is men's ability to spot their own children in a crowd of other children more quickly and with greater accuity than even their mothers. Studies have shown that men have the ability to more quickly and accurately identify their own children in a room full of kids dressed in the same uniforms than the mothers of the child. Again, this stresses the subconscious importance of this genetic trade off.

Social Convention

To counter this subconscious dynamic to their own genetic advantage women initiate social conventions and psychological schemas to better facilitate their own breeding methodologies. This is why women always have the "perogative to change her mind" and the most fickle of behaviors become socially excusable, while men's behavior is constrained to a higher standard to "do the right thing" which is invarably to the advantage of a woman. This is why guys who are 'Players', and fathers who abandon mothers and children to pursue their innate reproduction method are villains, and fathers who selflessly sacrifice themselves financially, emotionally and life decision-wise are considered heroes for complying with women's genetic imperatives.

This is also the root motivation for female-specific social dynamics such as LJBF rejections, women's propensity for victimhood (as they've learned that this engenders 'savior' mental schemas for men's breeding schedules) and even marriage itself.

Good Dads vs Good Genes

The two greatest difficulties for women to overcome in their own methodology is that they are only at a sexually viable peak for a short window of time (generally their 20s) and the fact that the qualities that make a good long term partner (the Good Dad) and the qualities that make for good breeding stock (Good Genes) rarely manifest themselves in the same male. Provisioning and security potential are fantastic motivators for pairing with a Good Dad, but the same characteristics that make him such are generally a disadvantage when compared with the man who better exemplifies genetic, physical attraction and the risk taking qualities that would imbue her child with a better capacity to adapt to it's environment (i.e stronger, faster, more attractive than others to ensure the passing of her own genetic material to future generations). This is the Jerk vs. Nice Guy paradox writ large on an evolutionary scale.

Men and women innately (though unconsciously) understand this dynamic, so in order for a woman to have the best that the Good Dad has to offer while taking advantage of the best that the Good Genes man has, she must invent and constantly modify social conventions to keep the advantage in her biological favor.

Reproductive Schedules

This paradox then necessitates that women (and by defalut men) must subscribe to short term and long term schdules of mating. Short term schedules facilitate breeding with the Good Genes male, while long term breeding is reserved the Good Dad male. This convention and the psycho-social schemas that accompany it are precisely why women will marry the Nice Guy, stable, loyal, (preferably) doctor and still fvck the pool boy or the cute surfer she met on spring break. In our genetic past a male with good genes implied an ability to be a good provider, but modern convention has thwarted this so new social and mental schemas had to be developed for women.

Cheating

For this dynamic and the practicality of enjoying the best of both genetic worlds, women find it necessary to 'cheat'. This cheating can be done proactively or reactively.

In the reactive model, a woman who has already paired with her long term partner choice, engages in an extramarital or pairing, sexual intercourse with a short term partner (i.e. the cheating wife or girlfriend). That's not to say this short term opportunity cannot develop into a 2nd, long term mate, but the action itself is a method for securing better genetic stock than the committed male provider is capable of supplying.

Proactive cheating is the single Mommy dillema. This form of 'cheating' relies on the woman breeding with a Good Genes male, bearing his children and then abandoning him, or having him abandon her, (again through invented social conventions) in order to find a Good Dad male to provide for her and the children of her Good Genes partner to ensure their security.

I want to stress again that (most) women do not have some consciously recognized, master plan to enact this cycle and deliberately trap men into it. Rather the motivations for this behavior and the accompanying rationales invented to justify it are an unconscious process. I fervently believe that for the most part, women are unaware of this dynamic, but are nonetheless subject to it's influence.??For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she's able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring's survival with the best provisioning partner, this is an evolutionary jackpot.

The Cuckold

On some level of consciousness, men innately sense something is wrong with this situation, though they may not be able to place why they feel it or misunderstand it in the confusion of women's justifications for it. Or they become frustrated by the social pressures to 'do the right thing' and are shamed into martyrdom/savior-hood and committed by feigned responsibility to these conventions. Nevertheless, some see it well enough to stear clear of single mothers, etiher by prior experience or observing other male cuckolds saddled with the responsibility of raising and providing for - no matter how involved or uninvolved - another man's successful reproduction efforts with this woman.

The man in this position is (or at the very least interpreted as) a Cuckold. He will never enjoy the same benefits as his mates short term partner(s) to the same degree, in the way of sexual desire or immediacy of it, while at the same time enduring the social pressures of having to provide for this Good Genes father's progeny. It could be argued that he may contibute minimally to their wellfare, but on some level, whether emotional, physical, financial or educational he will contribute some effort for another man's genetic material in exchange for limited form of sexuality/intimacy from the mother. To some degree, (even if only by his presence) he is sharing the parental investment that should be borne by the short term partner. If nothing else, he contibutes the time and effort to her he could be better invested in finding a sexual partner with which he could pursue his own genetic imperative by his own methodology. It is simply not worth his effort to couple with a single mother when compared to a woman without children.

However, needless to say, there is no shortage of men sexually deprived enough to 'see past' the long term disadvantages, and not only rewarding, but reinforcing a single mother's bad decisions with regard to her breeding selections and schedules in exchange for short term sexual gratification. It's important to bear in mind that in this age women are ultimately, soley responsible for the men they choose to mate with (baring rape of course) AND giving birth to their children. Men do bear responsibility for their actions no doubt, but it is ultimately the decision of the female and her judgement that decides her and her children's fate.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
:flowers:
 
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Vulpine

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So in conclusion...

Let me summarize, it is hardwired into both men's and women's brains to sleep around. For men, it is to spread their genes. For women, cheating ensures their offspring gets the best genes. Both are beneficial to survival.

Who, then, came up with the notion that we should resist these urges? Where did the idea of marriage and monogamy come from? What or who are we trying to impress with this new measure of "morality"?
 

dakota

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Vulpine said:
Now, this is the "mature man's" forum here. I can tell you guys that I have cheated before. I can also tell you that maturing means your attitudes change. Did anyone bother to ask when I cheated on GF's? Perhaps it was when I was less mature, perhaps my attitude has changed.
Not to stick my nose were it does not belong... but did you not reccently have a post that began " I'm so busted" when you had to lie and explain away what were hickies on your neck? Maybe I use a different standard than you.... but I consider a lie as an admission of guilt of having done/said something wrong. So by my reasoning your lies were to cover up you were cheating... otherwise why not admit they were hickies?.. Anyhow that just happens to be my opinion. And yes I can say that I have never cheated on or lied to a gf. Anyhow just my two cents.
 

Francisco d'Anconia

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WestCoaster said:
...Many on this site fit that description ... and not as in a violent sociopath, but one who has no conscious and doesn't care about others. One out of every 25 people in the world are sociopaths.
Personally, I'm a hedonist.
 

SELF-MASTERY

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S1NN3R said:
This makes me think of a Gin Blossoms song.

"You can't call it cheatin, cuz she reminds me of you"

didnt they sing a song that went something like........

"hey jealousy hey jealousy

we can...........

hey j..........."

Yes it is cheating.... If you want to cheat cheat, but stop acting like a ***** trying to find excuses....
 

PowertripII

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Francisco d'Anconia said:
Personally, I'm a hedonist.
Perfect reply! :)

In all seriousness though (and you can mark me as a sociopath if you'd like) I don't necessarily equate sex with cheating. Maybe it's because I was married to a porn star at one time, but I would consider 'cheating' to mean that my partner was interested in someone (emotionally) other than myself.

Point is, anyone can have sex. Few can have a complete, fulfilling bond with another person of the opposite gender. Sex outside of that is merely a symptom of greater issues boiling beneath the surface, not just about trust and morality.
 

S1NN3R

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SELF-MASTERY said:
didnt they sing a song that went something like........

"hey jealousy hey jealousy

we can...........

hey j..........."
Indeed they did. As a matter of fact, two of the lines from that song are,

"If you don't expect too much from me
You might not be let down"

Story of my life, let me tell you....
 

Vulpine

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dakota said:
Not to stick my nose were it does not belong... but did you not reccently have a post that began " I'm so busted" when you had to lie and explain away what were hickies on your neck? Maybe I use a different standard than you.... but I consider a lie as an admission of guilt of having done/said something wrong. So by my reasoning your lies were to cover up you were cheating... otherwise why not admit they were hickies?.. Anyhow that just happens to be my opinion. And yes I can say that I have never cheated on or lied to a gf. Anyhow just my two cents.
Ho-ho-HO! Busted AGAIN! How very perceptive of you! *reaches back to grab stuffed animal* You win a prize!

To quote Henry Rollins:

"I'm a liar. Yeah... I love to lie. I'm good at it! And, I'll lie to you."

He further went on to say:

"Liar. Liar. LIAR, LIAR, LIAR, LIAR!"

In my current situation, noone has had any "exclusivity discussion". One is an FB that assumes I'm sleeping around, one is frickin' cheating on her husband who knows I'm fuqing others, and the other that caught the hickey is the only one that has any emotional involvement. The other plates are spinning so slow that they aren't worth mentioning. Key words here are "plates" and "spinning". You'll notice that in my current situation you see no mention of "GF" or "wife".

Yes, I was busted. And, you can deduce from my terminology and context that I did indeed feel poorly for potentially hurting someone's feelings. My lies were to protect the other person's feelings, not to cover up any wrong doing. Do I have a GF? No. So how could I cheat on my GF?

She did, in fact, ask me "are you dating anyone else?" To which I replied "No." Some may interpret this as a lie. Others, like myself, define "dating" such as to imply seriousness, or, simply don't date at all. In which case, "No." is not a lie. Had she asked me differently, or phrased the question differently, I would have had to give a different answer. Conveniently, she asked the question in such a way that she got to hear the answer that she wanted to hear... and noone got hurt. ...or pregnant, or diseases.

BTW, dakota, you are still pointing to morality - not addressing any points of mine.
 

wayword

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Vulpine said:
Yes, I was busted. And, you can deduce from my terminology and context that I did indeed feel poorly for potentially hurting someone's feelings. My lies were to protect the other person's feelings, not to cover up any wrong doing. Do I have a GF? No. So how could I cheat on my GF?
BS, cheating is 100% selfish and lying to cover it up is just to protect YOURSELF and your OWN INTERESTS. In other words, to keep from getting yelled at and cut off by that girl.

If you REALLY wanted to protect her feelings and had her interests in mind, you WOULD NOT HAVE CHEATED ON HER to begin with!

I have no problem with spinning 50 plates or whatever, however I DO have a problem with DECEPTION AND OUTRIGHT LIES - in ANY relationship. If you're non-exclusive, fine, just don't lie about it.

Sorry, there is nothing you can say to rationalize cheating and lying to cover it up. The 60s-style liberal overthinking is great at blurring lines everywhere, but sometimes things are just simply wrong. You chop down the cherry tree and lie about it - that's WRONG. And with all the secondhand health and other risks associated with cheating - it's no laughing matter to the one getting cheated on.
 

Well I'm here to tell you there is such a magic wand. Something that will make you almost completely irresistible to any woman you "point it" at. Something guaranteed to fill your life with love, romance, and excitement.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

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