Incel Circlejerk

[corrector]

Correct.

Sometimes I wonder if my mental experience with these escorts, when I fap an ad, reflect reality. Its like I have this great time and they want from me is my money and they will leave me alone. I can choose anyone I want and they have to oblige me. Something does not add up if your experience feels fake or meh.

 

[Vanderdonck]

I'd put the argument forward that that's because technical game and having a medium to discuss it was all fairly new back then, and people were all very much under the incorrect assumption that 'game' was some secret magic power whereby we can all literally bang any girl we want if only we learnt about negs and disqualification and qualificatoin and some DHV stories and an NLP routine or 2 etc. ''18 year old 10/10 cheerleader and you are a broke fat bald 54 year old?? Doesn't matter!!!! MAKE her attracted using 'game'!''

Of course everyone was positive! They swallowed the kool aid and were mid sugar rush!

Maybe. In that span of time, victim culture and troll culture has proliferated. People weren't online that much back then either. So I think sites like this mostly attracted men willing to take responsibility and make a change for the better. I was on this site as early as 2000 and remember it being less infected with "poor me" attitudes. That's the real "Kool Aid" - toxic victim culture.

 

[Isildur1]

Maybe. In that span of time, victim culture and troll culture has proliferated. People weren't online that much back then either. So I think sites like this mostly attracted men willing to take responsibility and make a change for the better. I was on this site as early as 2000 and remember it being less infected with "poor me" attitudes. That's the real "Kool Aid" - toxic victim culture.

Think dating app’s , Instagram and Tik toks rise certainly played a part

it meant that men in the west had to be a lot more - it also destroyed the dating and pua community here in London I notice a steep decline in people people proactive about their dating problems and alot more people looking for short cuts- tinder lines etc.

Between 2012-2018 there was alot more of a proactive can do attitude - of course a lot of the high value men got sexually satisfied on dating apps and were no longer contributing to the pua community and it really died off then red pill ideology rose and the men’s dating communities got stuck in a sort of tangent between mgtows, red pillers and conservatives who all seemed to just be stuck in some form of mental masturbation

 

[GoodMan32]

Maybe. In that span of time, victim culture and troll culture has proliferated. People weren't online that much back then either. So I think sites like this mostly attracted men willing to take responsibility and make a change for the better. I was on this site as early as 2000 and remember it being less infected with "poor me" attitudes. That's the real "Kool Aid" - toxic victim culture.

One possible explanation: In 2000, my peers were too young to be on here (I was in elementary school)

As my peers aged into high school years/adulthood, struggles with the ladies skyrocketed (technology made my peers more clueless with the ladies than Gen X/Boomers)

What we're seeing now is the result of Millennials becoming adults.

Gen Z, which is into their teens/adult years by now, is even worse off than us.

 

[SW15]

I think a huge factor that a lot of people on here completely miss is simply accepting the reality of the dating market in our current time. I have a strong feeling a lot of the posters on here are much older, as in 40+ and well past this even, and do not understand the dynamics of the dating market today simply because they never went through it. Things like social media and dating apps did not exist 20 years ago. Sure, online dating sites existed, but wasn't how most couples met, in fact there was even a bit of a stigma associated with it.

IF a man was struggling in their time frame, the natural response is to assume there is something wrong with him. It's the same repetitive crap like work on your social skills, have better hygiene, dress better, become moderately fit, etc. This advice 20 years ago worked because the majority of guys were not struggling to get a date, so simply fixes like this would definitely help.

In contrast to this, you have large hordes of men that are otherwise decent/passable that are still struggling in today's dating market. Telling them the repetitive crap I mentioned above isn't even applicable.

Men are in the middle of the worst market for trying to find a partner, there is literally no debate on this. Your grandfather literally could just show up and he'd find a decent looking and decent quality woman to which he would marry, have multiple kids with, etc. Your grandfather didn't need to learn about "game" or spam approach women or make gym/fitness a part time job in order to land an average woman lol.

The advice should be to work incredibly hard on self improvement, because there are countless other guys out there doing better than you.

This analysis in all 3 of these quotes is all accurate. The dynamics of the sexual marketplace have changed from the sexual marketplace of the 1960s-1990s. Men who are Boomers and Gen X'ers who entered the market during this era would have a more difficult time comprehending what has changed in the sexual marketplace since circa the year 2000. Boomers and Gen X'ers entering the sexual marketplace in a more analog world had advantages that aren't applicable anymore.

Older Millennials (1981-1985 births) like myself were on the first wave of these changes. As someone who is in my early 40s right now and who entered the sexual marketplace as a lot of the current trends were emerging, I can relate to the changes that have happened.

I'll break a lot of this down point-by-point.

In the late 1990s/early 2000s, social media and dating websites were in their infancy. When I was in college (2001-2005), online dating websites still had a stigma. Match.com launched in 1995 and it languished for close to a decade until the stigma of online dating websites wore off. When I was in college, college students weren't using online dating. Online dating was only a thing (and something with somewhat of a stigma depending on the year) for people in the working world.

By the 2nd half of the 2000s decade, the online dating website stigma had eroded and Match, Okcupid, and Plenty of Fish got popular. In the 2005-2009 time period, women started to go onto websites and experience an abundance of penis like they had not seen before. Even nightlife venues (places that are often sausage fests) didn't offer them the type of penis abundance they were seeing on dating websites in this time. To women, being on a dating site in the 2nd half of the 2000s/early 2010s was like being in multiple nightlife venues at the same time and 24/7. It was incredible abundance for them. In this time, it was common for women to have something like 200-500 inbox messages. The only thing is that in this era, a smaller percentage of women were actually using dating websites.

Dating apps replaced dating websites in the 2010s and a larger percentage of women participated in the app environment as compared to the website environment. More women started experiencing the abundant feeling of being in multiple nightlife venues at the same time and 24/7. Apps changed the game because women didn't have to deal with the inbox volume of the dating website era. The volume of abundance came in the swipe queue and the swipe app inbox was only for specific men that were attractive that they right swiped. This was a major change for women as I am about to illustrate.

The abundance that has resulted in the change from a more analog way of first interacting to a more digital way of first interacting (website, apps, and social media) has raised women's standards and raised them to often delusional levels. While certain analog ways of starting interactions gave women a numerical advantage (bars/nightlife being the most common experience), nothing in the analog world could compete with the digital abundance.

Social media arrived in the mid-2000s with MySpace launching in 2004. Facebook also launched in 2004 but it was a college student only platform until late 2006 when it opened to the general public. Almost as soon as MySpace and Facebook started, there was DMing going on with guys looking for sex. This was happening in the 2nd half of the 2000s decade just as the stigma of dating websites had also eroded.

Around the same time, smartphones took off and changed communication patterns in the early stages of interactions as well. Apple's first iPhone was released in 2007 and made smartphones popular, even though some other smartphones had been released prior to the first iPhone. The iPhone/smartphone made text messaging the more common form of initial interaction, which changes how people communicate as compared to either landline telephone calls or pre-smartphone basic cell phones (think flip phones and candy bar type phones of most of the 2000s). Sending text messages on flip and candy bar phones was far more difficult and reserved more for situations where phone calls would be impossible (places like loud nightlife venues or stadiums). My last 2 years of high school and all 4 years of college (1999-2005) were done with phone calls being more popular than text messages. The smartphone has also helped women manage their abundance, shifting more of their communication to impersonal text messages rather than more personal and more attentive phone calls.

Prior to some point in the 2000s, the common diagnosis for struggling men would have been to fix various things that were wrong with themselves. In the 1960s-1990s sexual marketplace, that diagnosis was more accurate and then addressing personal shortfalls were likely to make a difference. Since the 2000s, that advice has not worked as well because of shifts in the marketplace. While some men need to have some level of self-improvement, self-improvement as a whole now has reached a point of diminishing returns. There are some men that would be good enough by the standards of the 1970s-1990s that simply can't compete in the 2000s-present market because of the shifts that have given women such immense abundance.

The prior paragraph is not meant to be dismissive of self-improvement. Improvements in social skills, fitness, apparel, accessories (Rolex, etc), automobile (higher end brand), avoidance of porn/masturbation, etc. might still have some impact in today's market. The point is that self-improvement can only go so far in a market that has shifted to the point where women's standards are so high that a large percentage of men are eliminated. Self improving from a 50th percentile man to a 70th percentile is good and will take a lot of effort. It might not result in that much of a change when women are looking to start interactions with strangers in the 85th-90th percentile +.

Plenty of Boomers and early Gen X men (birth years 1946-early 1970s) would have been incels or borderline incels had they been born as Millennials or early Gen Z'ers (early 1980s-early 2000s). The percentage of men who are incel or borderline incel has increased because women's standards have shifted so far and women are unwilling to settle for anything besides a top tier man because 60 years of feminism has told them to "Never Settle" and they have such abundance that the "Never Settle" mantra of feminism can be applied more easily than in the late 20th Century.

 

[SW15]

The better advice would be to avoid dating apps outright unless you are exceptionally attractive.

That is the better advice. In dating apps, the ideal positioning is to be an 85th-90th percentile + man. It's very difficult to get into that top 10-15% of men. Men who are more in the middle of the bell curve are better off spending them in more analog forms of meeting people where some of those attributes can work to your advantage.

Approaching strangers in person is a difficult proposition and has been difficult for decades. People have been complaining about how difficult nightlife venue approaching is going all the way back to the 1960s-1970s and that was a friendly overall sexual marketplace. Approaching strangers in the 2020s decade is now even more difficult than it used to be.

Let's say that a man is out doing an approach session at the mall or maybe he's leisurely slowing his grocery shopping effort to scan for approaches. There's less incentive in the 2020s for the woman to field the approach when she has hundreds of men clamoring for her between either her dating app profile or her social media DMs, and she didn't have that in 2004 for example. That last sentence is only applicable if she's unattached. Many women that a man will approach in daygame settings will be in a current relationship and not seeking new penis. These women will not inform the cold approacher man of her boyfriend in most cases. What she will do is be generally non-responsive in the conversation and the conversation will naturally fizzle out quickly before a first date offer can be made. This functions as the 'soft rejection' is the most common daygame rejection. With all of this said, it is worth starting up the conversation to get in front of the woman who is unattached and open to new interactions. Getting time in the flesh is so valuable compared to the men in her smartphone pocket clamoring for her digital attention. A good approach will put you ahead of the men seeking with her digital methods. That's why I still recommend doing the approaches, even though they are inefficient. The biggest inefficiency in non-bar approaching is the fact that most conversations will go nowhere because most women are satisfied enough in their current relationship and not seeking new penis.

Approaching strangers will work better than the dating apps for a good portion of men. The better advice in life is building a social circle that will help introduce you to a longer term girlfriend. While it isn't advisable or even possible in many instances to have sex with many women in the same circle, meeting women through a circle and forming a longer term relationship has the potential to be more efficient in many cases than real life approaching or the use of a tech method (apps or DMs).

Women are more focused on being 'boss bitches' and their careers while having little interest in children, marriage, etc.

There are some reasons for why this happens.

Second wave feminism (the feminism of the 1960s-1980s) urged women to veer away from the path of being a wife and mother. Women were urged from that point forward to pursue a place in the working world. Late 20th Century and early 21st Century women were reminded of the women of the late 1800s and first half of the 1900s. These were women who generally had less dependence and were financially dependent on some breadwinner husband. Some of the husbands of this time period were unpleasant men and many were physically and/or emotionally abusive. The 1960s-1980s feminist thought leaders used these stories to help advance their cause and gradually push more women into the workforce. I was born in the 1980s and had my formative years in the 1990s. The women born in the 1980s and raised in the 1990s/early 2000s were raised in a time after 1960s-1980s feminism and those ideas became more entrenched in Western culture. The women of the first half of the Millennial generation (1981-1988 births) and beyond were raised with the idea that they would never be dependent on a man like their grandmothers or great grandmothers were in the late 1800s/early 1900s. That's why a lot of them pursued a lifestyle with college attendance and working. It wasn't good enough in a lot of cases to simply have a traditional female job, marry, and be more centered around being a wife and mother from their late 20s-early 50s and then eventually being a grandmother after age 55 or so.

While I think the influence of feminism gets talked about a lot in women's changes, the next reason is talked about less in my opinion but still is somewhat discussed.

This next reason is the cost of college tuition, which has exploded since the 1990s. I attended college in 2001-2005 and by the time I arrived on campus, college had already gotten increasingly expensive and there was awareness of this issue. College costs have only gotten worse since I finished my 4 years of undergrad in 2005. Women of my birth era and beyond have only known a world of expensive college tuition. The combination of the influence of feminist thought from above, the time effort of 4 years of studying (or more), and the high cost of college tuition makes it so important for women to prioritize their career accomplishments above all else. That's understandable given the time it takes to get a college degree and the cost of getting a college degree. It's understandable to want to get value out of that time of your life.

The time and cost issues are compounded if a woman gets a degree beyond a 4 year bachelor's degree. More and more women are also getting advanced degrees now and that also factors into female careerism.

 

[Vanderdonck]

One possible explanation: In 2000, my peers were too young to be on here (I was in elementary school)

As my peers aged into high school years/adulthood, struggles with the ladies skyrocketed (technology made my peers more clueless with the ladies than Gen X/Boomers)

What we're seeing now is the result of Millennials becoming adults.

Gen Z, which is into their teens/adult years by now, is even worse off than us.

yah so, like I said people took personal responsibility for their success and/or failure and did what they could to get better. We didn't blame tech.

 

[Vending Machine Veteran]

That is the better advice. In dating apps, the ideal positioning is to be an 85th-90th percentile + man. It's very difficult to get into that top 10-15% of men. Men who are more in the middle of the bell curve are better off spending them in more analog forms of meeting people where some of those attributes can work to your advantage.

Approaching strangers in person is a difficult proposition and has been difficult for decades. People have been complaining about how difficult nightlife venue approaching is going all the way back to the 1960s-1970s and that was a friendly overall sexual marketplace. Approaching strangers in the 2020s decade is now even more difficult than it used to be.

Let's say that a man is out doing an approach session at the mall or maybe he's leisurely slowing his grocery shopping effort to scan for approaches. There's less incentive in the 2020s for the woman to field the approach when she has hundreds of men clamoring for her between either her dating app profile or her social media DMs, and she didn't have that in 2004 for example. That last sentence is only applicable if she's unattached. Many women that a man will approach in daygame settings will be in a current relationship and not seeking new penis. These women will not inform the cold approacher man of her boyfriend in most cases. What she will do is be generally non-responsive in the conversation and the conversation will naturally fizzle out quickly before a first date offer can be made. This functions as the 'soft rejection' is the most common daygame rejection. With all of this said, it is worth starting up the conversation to get in front of the woman who is unattached and open to new interactions. Getting time in the flesh is so valuable compared to the men in her smartphone pocket clamoring for her digital attention. A good approach will put you ahead of the men seeking with her digital methods. That's why I still recommend doing the approaches, even though they are inefficient. The biggest inefficiency in non-bar approaching is the fact that most conversations will go nowhere because most women are satisfied enough in their current relationship and not seeking new penis.

Approaching strangers will work better than the dating apps for a good portion of men. The better advice in life is building a social circle that will help introduce you to a longer term girlfriend. While it isn't advisable or even possible in many instances to have sex with many women in the same circle, meeting women through a circle and forming a longer term relationship has the potential to be more efficient in many cases than real life approaching or the use of a tech method (apps or DMs).



There are some reasons for why this happens.

Second wave feminism (the feminism of the 1960s-1980s) urged women to veer away from the path of being a wife and mother. Women were urged from that point forward to pursue a place in the working world. Late 20th Century and early 21st Century women were reminded of the women of the late 1800s and first half of the 1900s. These were women who generally had less dependence and were financially dependent on some breadwinner husband. Some of the husbands of this time period were unpleasant men and many were physically and/or emotionally abusive. The 1960s-1980s feminist thought leaders used these stories to help advance their cause and gradually push more women into the workforce. I was born in the 1980s and had my formative years in the 1990s. The women born in the 1980s and raised in the 1990s/early 2000s were raised in a time after 1960s-1980s feminism and those ideas became more entrenched in Western culture. The women of the first half of the Millennial generation (1981-1988 births) and beyond were raised with the idea that they would never be dependent on a man like their grandmothers or great grandmothers were in the late 1800s/early 1900s. That's why a lot of them pursued a lifestyle with college attendance and working. It wasn't good enough in a lot of cases to simply have a traditional female job, marry, and be more centered around being a wife and mother from their late 20s-early 50s and then eventually being a grandmother after age 55 or so.

While I think the influence of feminism gets talked about a lot in women's changes, the next reason is talked about less in my opinion but still is somewhat discussed.

This next reason is the cost of college tuition, which has exploded since the 1990s. I attended college in 2001-2005 and by the time I arrived on campus, college had already gotten increasingly expensive and there was awareness of this issue. College costs have only gotten worse since I finished my 4 years of undergrad in 2005. Women of my birth era and beyond have only known a world of expensive college tuition. The combination of the influence of feminist thought from above, the time effort of 4 years of studying (or more), and the high cost of college tuition makes it so important for women to prioritize their career accomplishments above all else. That's understandable given the time it takes to get a college degree and the cost of getting a college degree. It's understandable to want to get value out of that time of your life.

The time and cost issues are compounded if a woman gets a degree beyond a 4 year bachelor's degree. More and more women are also getting advanced degrees now and that also factors into female careerism.

That's what sosuave is for.

You can take yourself from the 50th percentile and put yourself in the 80th. In terms of success

Talking to women is like learning sales. You get better as you get more experience and gain confidence in yourself.

But you have to put in the work. Nobody is gonna do it for you.

You have to make the effort. Walk out to the edge you're so scared of - talking to women - then cross it. It's exhilarating

Cold showers will simulate the feeling, if you can't get up the nerve

BUt remember that there were plenty of us that were bad with women, and did get up the nerve. We grabbed our small balls and made an effort ...

So should you. It will make you a better man