If she is lustfully staring at other men or flirting.

[Grounded eagle]

You must have skimmed but not read. What happens is that over time is that men adjust to a woman’s looks. They normalize to her looks. As that happens the other factors rise in weight or importance because these other factors have more to do with long term connection and compatability.

Men with a ton of experience with women understand this and after a while start screening (if they seek more than just sex) on these non looks based factors, especially when the man is someone for whom beautiful women are the norm. Men will sacrifice a little in the looks department for other traits that confer greater compatibility and pleasant nature to be around.

Nobody who can pull 10s in looks will drop to 4s. But they will drop to an 8 or 9 in looks provided the girl has a pleasing disposition.

I would rather be alone than with a dude who doesn’t appeal to me. I’ve already explained that. I am happy with my BF, so that’s not an issue.

My boyfriend is 45. And hot/sexy AF. And delighted to have me. He meets all my criteria. So no dual mating strategy here I assure you

Men adjust to women’s looks? I don’t know where you got that idea,but no man with options would do that lol.No man.Long term connections with women aren’t things men necessarily go looking for.No man looks at a girl he’s attracted to and thinks,”Gee, I wonder where we’ll celebrate our 5 year anniversary?”He thinks more along the lines of,”Damn she has fat ass.”A man’s attraction,and later commitment to a woman is dictated first and foremost by how much he is physically attracted to her, and maybe not even then.Men aren’t thinking about things like “long term compatibility.”All that comes later,if he feels like keeping her around.Men with options will only start thinking that way much later on,having indulged their desires to the fullest.And while these men wouldn’t be caught dead with 4s,it is a reality that even these 4s can find somebody to **** them.The sexual marketplace is that way for women. I don’t think you understand what guys mean here when they refer to the dualistic sexual strategy of women,but you best believe it exists.It is derived from motivations of women to get into relationships with men,short or long term.

 

[PRW63]

So no dual mating strategy here I assure you

You can't get rid or it. It is biologically ingrained. What is happening is that your BF just satisfies both sides of it at the same time. He is the correct balance of the two.

 

[BeExcellent]

Men adjust to women’s looks? I don’t know where you got that idea,but no man with options would do that lol.No man.Long term connections with women aren’t things men necessarily go looking for.No man looks at a girl he’s attracted to and thinks,”Gee, I wonder where we’ll celebrate our 5 year anniversary?”He thinks more along the lines of,”Damn she has fat ass.”A man’s attraction,and later commitment to a woman is dictated first and foremost by how much he is physically attracted to her, and maybe not even then.Men aren’t thinking about things like “long term compatibility.”All that comes later,if he feels like keeping her around.Men with options will only start thinking that way much later on,having indulged their desires to the fullest.And while these men wouldn’t be caught dead with 4s,it is a reality that even these 4s can find somebody to **** them.The sexual marketplace is that way for women. I don’t think you understand what guys mean here when they refer to the dualistic sexual strategy of women,but you best believe it exists.It is derived from motivations of women to get into relationships with men,short or long term.

I assure you I understand exactly what is meant by dualistic mating strategy. At my age, having been married, having had 3 children, having been divorced, and having seen countless women bargain their looks transactionally in exchange for resources or perceived financially security I know a tremendous amount about this.

Socially I have a friend for example who is 55. She looks 35, much as I do. She married 30 years ago her college sweetheart. He is worth now over 100 million. She can get whatever cosmetic procedure she wants, they have whatever material things they desire, their two children are grown and attending expensive private universities, they support many charities etc. And they hate each other. They will never divorce. It would cost him too much money, and she would lose the lifestyle and prestige she basks in. So they both openly take lovers on the side and they stay together as partners. So believe me, I get it.

I just am not a woman who believes in transactional relationships. I require actual desire to be the glue that holds things together.

I have friends I know personally in their 30s to 60s who have banged hundreds (in a couple of cases over 1000) of women. They all get bored with meaningless sex in time. Men who have never experienced this cannot wrap their brains around this concept.

You are so enthralled with how hot a girl is that you cannot imagine anything else being more important. Men with much more life experience (and experience with women) will tell you the same thing…

“It doesn’t matter how beautiful she is. Someone somewhere is sick of her shjt”

Google that statement. You’ll find it educational.

In other words looks,while important are not the most important thing to high value men with options. I should know. Desirable men are the only ones I go out with.

Here is why this is true. Beautiful women are a dime a dozen. They are everywhere. Now. You may or may not be able to date them, but they are everywhere.

High value men always can get beautiful women. That is a requirement. Baseline. The ugly need not apply. Understand?

But finding a beautiful woman who is pleasant, warm, giving, fun, sweet, kind, feminine and engaging? Very small subset of hot women also have those attributes. High value men select from this subset. Beauty is a given. It only gets you in the door. The other qualities matter much more.

 

[PRW63]

Men adjust to women’s looks? I don’t know where you got that idea,but no man with options would do that lol.

She's right. I work in the media,...the TV industry. We even had Matt Damon walking the halls once when one of his movies was filmed here. We don't put the Muts in front of the camera. I've been here for 22 years. My younger self had to adjust to it. Now when I see a chick walking the hall that other guys would drool all over themselves with,...I just see them as normal,...it's what they are just supposed to look like. Heck, I may have watched a movie on their couch one or twice at some house party with a bunch of them. I still have a Santa Clause hat in my closet that I somehow came home with years ago from one them. They stop being a big deal,...I know too much about them,...they just become humans.

 

[BeExcellent]

You can't get rid or it. It is biologically ingrained. What is happening is that your BF just satisfies both sides of it at the same time. He is the correct balance of the two.

I can agree in that respect since you subscribe to this view.

I will say however that I do not need him to take care of me financially. I never chose men along those lines all my life. I out earn him as it is. I also take care of my children’s costs and offer some financial assistance to my ex husband per our agreement. So I do not have the dual need you guys espousing this dualistic mating strategy seem to believe so strongly in. It is not biology. This is a belief you and others hold. I am self sufficient from a resource perspective. I chose based on desire and leadership as I described earlier in this thread.

Among other things I hold a degree in biology. This is not biology. Sociology Ok. But not biology. The sexual desire/leadership thing is more biologically based. Your beliefs reflect social constructs arising from your belief system. Do not conflate the two. They are not the same thing.

 

[PRW63]

I can agree in that respect since you subscribe to this view.

I will say however that I do not need him to take care of me financially however.

It ain't all about money. The dualistic mating stratagy has been perverted in most of what you see on the internet. People, particularly younger people, can't think past their own short view of history. If you can think back to the ancient past before there was a such thing as money it makes more sense. The two sides of the nature are the genetic provisioning that make good babies (the "hawt guy"),...and the provisioning & protection side. Finding all aspects in the same guy used to be a "given" and not even questioned. But since the 1970's, 1980's, and beyond it gets more and more difficult to find a guy who is the whole package.

Among other things I hold a degree in biology. This is not biology. Sociology Ok. But not biology.

Biology, Psychology, Praxeology, Sociology. Blend it however you want. It is the salad that makes up the whole person. The boundaries between them aren't as clean as people might want them to be. Just a simple head injury or birth defect (Biology) can change how we think (Psychology) and that can change how we behave (Praxeology) and that in varying degrees can effect the larger scope of people around us (Sociological).

 

[zekko]

Yes.I think it angers most guys because they can’t match up.So they disqualify them.

There is such a thing as white knighting, I'm sure we've all seen an example or two of that.
But on the opposite end of the spectrum, there's that recent news story of the women who was raped on the train, and all the passengers just sat there and did nothing. That's not exactly behavior to be proud of either. I know there are a lot of would be PUAs who would think that anyone who jumped in to help would be a white knight, chump, sucker, or whatever other words they might want to use.

 

[Grounded eagle]

I assure you I understand exactly what is meant by dualistic mating strategy. At my age, having been married, having had 3 children, having been divorced, and having seen countless women bargain their looks transactionally in exchange for resources or perceived financially security I know a tremendous amount about this.

Socially I have a friend for example who is 55. She looks 35, much as I do. She married 30 years ago her college sweetheart. He is worth now over 100 million. She can get whatever cosmetic procedure she wants, they have whatever material things they desire, their two children are grown and attending expensive private universities, they support many charities etc. And they hate each other. They will never divorce. It would cost him too much money, and she would lose the lifestyle and prestige she basks in. So they both openly take lovers on the side and they stay together as partners. So believe me, I get it.

I just am not a woman who believes in transactional relationships. I require actual desire to be the glue that holds things together.

I have friends I know personally in their 30s to 60s who have banged hundreds (in a couple of cases over 1000) of women. They all get bored with meaningless sex in time. Men who have never experienced this cannot wrap their brains around this concept.

You are so enthralled with how hot a girl is that you cannot imagine anything else being more important. Men with much more life experience (and experience with women) will tell you the same thing…

“It doesn’t matter how beautiful she is. Someone somewhere is sick of her shjt”

Google that statement. You’ll find it educational.

In other words looks,while important are not the most important thing to high value men with options. I should know. Desirable men are the only ones I go out with.

Here is why this is true. Beautiful women are a dime a dozen. They are everywhere. Now. You may or may not be able to date them, but they are everywhere.

High value men always can get beautiful women. That is a requirement. Baseline. The ugly need not apply. Understand?

But finding a beautiful woman who is pleasant, warm, giving, fun, sweet, kind, feminine and engaging? Very small subset of hot women also have those attributes. High value men select from this subset. Beauty is a given. It only gets you in the door. The other qualities matter much more.

I did say that a high value man would only think a certain type of way having had his way for a good while did I not?I am 23,and I have always imagined that at some point I’d look for more than just looks in a woman.Right now though?Girls my age are in their prime.Commitment ranges from difficult to impossible.This reminds of the last girl I was with before the red pill.Very feminine.Very submissive.Very desirable.Very fun to be with.She was always down for whatever.But I hurt her,the relationship ended, and I really believed I lost a great girl. I did lose a great girl.But so was the girl before her.And the one after. Therein lies the axe a lot of guys have to grind with girls,most of them are as phoney as a three dollar bill.High value men will have their fill,because they’re rare,because there are a lot more physically attractive women (physical attractiveness being the issue of note)than there are men who are charismatic,confident,financially well off and generally have their **** together.That subset you speak of?They are women who saw it prudent to accede to the high value man’s terms.I am not rambling for the sake of,I have seen it.Any woman can be warm,giving,sweet and fun if the man is high value enough.

 

[PRW63]

There is such a thing as white knighting, I'm sure we've all seen an example or two of that.
But on the opposite end of the spectrum, there's that recent news story of the women who was raped on the train, and all the passengers just sat there and did nothing. That's not exactly behavior to be proud of either. I know there are a lot of would be PUAs who would think that anyone who jumped in to help would be a white knight, chump, sucker, or whatever other words they might want to use.

More afraid of getting stabbed or shot than anything else.

 

[Grounded eagle]

There is such a thing as white knighting, I'm sure we've all seen an example or two of that.
But on the opposite end of the spectrum, there's that recent news story of the women who was raped on the train, and all the passengers just sat there and did nothing. That's not exactly behavior to be proud of either. I know there are a lot of would be PUAs who would think that anyone who jumped in to help would be a white knight, chump, sucker, or whatever other words they might want to use.

Exactly.Now being a provider and a protector is beta.I’m sure in some scenarios it is,but those two things are cornerstones of what makes a man a man.

 

[zekko]

More afraid of getting stabbed or shot than anything else.

I was thinking they were afraid of getting sued, or arrested. Common sense is completely upside down these days, and in many places they will side with the criminals if they can. The rapist guy gets off, while you get arrested for assault and get stuck with his medical bills.

 

[BeExcellent]

For the time being, until her desire for him drops off.

Not at all. Because of the way I select desire does not wane. Rather it grows. In my marriage relationship for example desire was always strong. Sex very nearly on the daily for 20 years. Marriage fell apart for other reasons not deriving from the desire part.

I know many married couples where desire is still present and key in the relationship. If you have not experienced a relationship where desire strengthens then you probably picked the wrong person.

Current relationship is deepening & strengthening in the desire department. No reason to think it will not continue to do so.

I’ve never really understood why men would put up with sexless or desire free relationships. The whole concept of that is foreign to me.

There is a reason my first criteria involves desire. It is the glue; the magic that holds everything else together long term.

 

[BeExcellent]

Why be vague with this aspect? You're certainly open about everything else... If not desire, what went wrong in your marriage?


Yeah no shjt. You're a female. It's not an accomplishment for women to have sex. Women don't have to worry about game, and tactics, and fulfilling a 20 point attraction list...Unlike men. Men would rather put up with the prospect of scraps than worry about becoming incel. Something women don't have to deal with.

My ex husband completely abdicated the man’s role in the marriage after his partner screwed him over on the nightclub. He never recovered and became lazy and depressed over time. He abdicated leadership and didn’t get up and get on with life. There are many places my full story exists here at SS. It’s in my unicorn thread from a few years ago if you need details. Eventually my respect for him as a man eroded because he wallowed for many years. He was a stay at home father 10 of those years. He had my support and every opportunity to get up. He didn’t. As time passed I didn’t want my children to think the example of a man their father was demonstrating was normal. I ended up the enabler of his laziness within the marriage. So I left the marriage. I told him 5 years before I left that his trajectory would have to change or a divorce was inevitable. I left him 5 years later. Incidentally I remained faithful throughout. It was not until a year post divorce that I accepted a date. And the guy who asked me out? We dated for 18 months.

As far as men accepting scraps? Each of the highly desirable men I know who were in sexless unions KNEW they were picking the wrong woman at the time. They are all charming, handsome & very successful.

All are happily divorced now by the way, and two had hellacious divorces.

One is a film editor in Hollywood, one a lawyer & IT consultant, another is a property developer. They each had a deep sense of commitment to marriage as an institution. They all were historically desirable men with no issue attracting women. They all remain highly sought after and women swoon over them. So it’s not as though they were ugly in cel types. Not at all. They did each marry a high maintenance bjtch though. Then they had children with said bjtch. They each realize now they chose a woman for the wrong reasons but young men do this often.

I hope my son does not do the same. At 19 he thus far appears to have a good head on his shoulders.

 

[Clamslammer]

My ex husband completely abdicated the man’s role in the marriage after his partner screwed him over on the nightclub. He never recovered and became lazy and depressed over time. He abdicated leadership and didn’t get up and get on with life. There are many places my full story exists here at SS. It’s in my unicorn thread from a few years ago if you need details. Eventually my respect for him as a man eroded because he wallowed for many years. He was a stay at home father 10 of those years. He had my support and every opportunity to get up. He didn’t. As time passed I didn’t want my children to think the example of a man their father was demonstrating was normal. I ended up the enabler of his laziness within the marriage. So I left the marriage. I told him 5 years before I left that his trajectory would have to change or a divorce was inevitable. I left him 5 years later. Incidentally I remained faithful throughout. It was not until a year post divorce that I accepted a date. And the guy who asked me out? We dated for 18 months.

As far as men accepting scraps? Each of the highly desirable men I know who were in sexless unions KNEW they were picking the wrong woman at the time. They are all charming, handsome & very successful.

Bingo!!! Girls and Guys know right away that the person they married were not the right one. Usually it is the girl because she lowers her standard to get hitched and have a safe relationship so society thinks highly of them. But what ends up happening is if the relationship is not built on desire from the beginning either party will stop caring and will spiral downward and eventually leads to divorce. I have seen this play out all the time.

All are happily divorced now by the way, and two had hellacious divorces.

One is a film editor in Hollywood, one a lawyer & IT consultant, another is a property developer. They each had a deep sense of commitment to marriage as an institution. They all were historically desirable men with no issue attracting women. They all remain highly sought after and women swoon over them. So it’s not as though they were ugly in cel types. Not at all. They did each marry a high maintenance bjtch though. Then they had children with said bjtch. They each realize now they chose a woman for the wrong reasons but young men do this often.

I hope my son does not do the same. At 19 he thus far appears to have a good head on his shoulders.

 

[BeExcellent]

Thank you for sharing that @Bee. Your openness is refreshing.

Question: You posted earlier your marriage did not end due to lack of desire.

So to clarify, you lost respect for him but still felt desire for him?

I find that unusual as when my respect dies, so does my desire.

Can you clarify further on that?

When I took my vows I COMMITTED to my ex husband. To the marriage, to the family, and my intent was until one of us died.

I committed to him as my lover, as my best friend, as the head of the family, as the father of my children. Out of that commitment arose a dedication to work through things by turning deeper into the marriage rather than seeking outside it.

The marriage was grounded in desire, intimacy, trust and love. Obviously respect is a cornerstone of love. I committed “for better or for worse”…and I gave endless chances and had high hopes that HE would in time recover, get going etc., etc., but disillusionment began to set in. I cannot “fix” someone else outside myself. Believe me I tried. I was still committed but he was not. He was checked out. He was fine getting by doing the utter bare minimum and watching me shoulder the load of heavy responsibility for our family. He got incredibly lazy. He wasn’t like that when we married. And while I broke my back working, handling investments and doctors appointments and so forth he sunk deeper into depression, procrastination and apathy. Not even fatherhood motivated him.

That’s why I gave him such a long horizon. I wanted him to realize I was committed but that I couldn’t watch him loaf around (he slept most days while the kids were in school)forever…and that he needed to pull his weight. I offered therapy, I helped him and backed him in another business that also failed, I was ALL IN invested. That is how it’s supposed to be. But he wasn’t committed the same way I was. He didn’t sacrifice like I did. And there was nothing I could do. Leaving your lover & best friend and co-parent was not easy. It was the correct choice and should have happened much sooner. I had designed the REST of my life around the family unit. He was just hitching a ride in the end.

Brutal. So desire existed throughout. I maintained hope through out until things were inked.

He didn’t really digest that I was gone until I began (a year after the divorce) dating someone. Suddenly he dropped 40 lbs., got into the best shape of his life…but I was already emotionally gone by then…and he let himself go once more.

He’s now overweight, lives like a slob to such a degree my children won’t live with him), and is bitter. He blames anyone but himself for his lot in life.

Yeah. Not dealing with that. It creates anxiety in my kids to be around it.

Oh well. The difference in our paths since the divorce is striking. And I was the one as the bread winner spouse at great financial peril.

Best decision EVER.

 

[BeExcellent]

Sexual desire. That is what I mean when I discuss desire. The drive to be committed to the marriage arises from sexual attraction or desire. That’s the glue.

In a deeply intimate marriage relationship the sexual union (kept through desire) is what bonds the spouses.

I was deeply committed to that bond.

Hope that clarifies things.

 

[mrskinnypantz]

Oh I always allow my boyfriend to be a man, would never ever interfere with that.

I simply don't equate getting into brawls/physical altercations with being a man. Unless it's to defend my life or his.

I still don't interfere with that when it happened tho, like with my ex. And at the time, I was actually flattered by it.

But now? Words are much more effective imo and as I said, and YOU said, him assertively expressing he doesn't tolerate disrespect =

So we are in agreement - I think.

Edit: I realize some maybe even many women are into that type of aggression, like in the thread about the poster pulling some random guy out of a taxi. Did you read that?

His date was all over him after that and he took her home and banged her.

Like this from one of my favorite flicks.

So I asked a friend of mine , he said he’s kind of used to it, and if he took his chick to the bar and a dude was staring he would ignore at first, but then if he just kept kept starin then he would eventually have to say something because at that point he’s disrespecting him now.

And yeah It is the type of women , in my culture you kinda have to jump on it otherwise the girl will think you’re a pvssy.

love that movie , and that’s a perfect example of when you have to fight!

 

[metalwater]

My ex husband completely abdicated the man’s role in the marriage after his partner screwed him over on the nightclub. He never recovered and became lazy and depressed over time. He abdicated leadership and didn’t get up and get on with life. There are many places my full story exists here at SS. It’s in my unicorn thread from a few years ago if you need details. Eventually my respect for him as a man eroded because he wallowed for many years. He was a stay at home father 10 of those years. He had my support and every opportunity to get up. He didn’t. As time passed I didn’t want my children to think the example of a man their father was demonstrating was normal. I ended up the enabler of his laziness within the marriage. So I left the marriage. I told him 5 years before I left that his trajectory would have to change or a divorce was inevitable. I left him 5 years later. Incidentally I remained faithful throughout. It was not until a year post divorce that I accepted a date. And the guy who asked me out? We dated for 18 months.

As far as men accepting scraps? Each of the highly desirable men I know who were in sexless unions KNEW they were picking the wrong woman at the time. They are all charming, handsome & very successful.

All are happily divorced now by the way, and two had hellacious divorces.

One is a film editor in Hollywood, one a lawyer & IT consultant, another is a property developer. They each had a deep sense of commitment to marriage as an institution. They all were historically desirable men with no issue attracting women. They all remain highly sought after and women swoon over them. So it’s not as though they were ugly in cel types. Not at all. They did each marry a high maintenance bjtch though. Then they had children with said bjtch. They each realize now they chose a woman for the wrong reasons but young men do this often.

I hope my son does not do the same. At 19 he thus far appears to have a good head on his shoulders.

you tell that story similarly every time, so it probably happened. my take is that when you saw the partner screw him over what you saw was him getting beat to hell by another man. light switch.

 

[BeExcellent]

you tell that story similarly every time, so it probably happened. my take is that when you saw the partner screw him over what you saw was him getting beat to hell by another man. light switch.

No it wasn’t that. Not at all. It was that my my ex husband got knocked down and never got back up. Life will knock you down sometimes. You have to get up. That is what determines grit in life. I gave him a long horizon to get up. His partner was his best friend since he was 10 years old. Brutal.

 

[mrskinnypantz]

Yeah in the movie, from the way Karen described, it sounded like the neighbor guy did more than make some crude comments, he grabbed her, nearly physically assaulted her and pushed her out of the car!

I typically dislike physical aggression/violence like that but sometimes, like you said, it's warranted!!

Loved the movie too, it's become a classic, one of Scorsese's best imo. I even became a bit obsessed with Henry after watching it, researching old news clippings and such.

He and Karen eventually divorced. Karen said after they went into hiding under witness protection, their marriage and life became dull and boring, everyday humdrum and she divorced him.

What does THAT tell you about what women want? Excitement, high drama, passion, danger, feeling a sense of "protection" from their man. I think there is some truth to that at least for some women.

My ex was always getting into fist fights to protect my "honor," or now in retrospect, perhaps HE felt disrespected.

I wonder what Henry felt, if he beat the crap out of the guy to protect Karen's honor OR did HE feel disrespected?

Or perhaps a little of both?

So Karen never really loved him, just the way he made her feel(drama, danger and excitement)

Yeah in the movie, from the way Karen described, it sounded like the neighbor guy did more than make some crude comments, he grabbed her, nearly physically assaulted her and pushed her out of the car!

I typically dislike physical aggression/violence like that but sometimes, like you said, it's warranted!!

Loved the movie too, it's become a classic, one of Scorsese's best imo. I even became a bit obsessed with Henry after watching it, researching old news clippings and such.

He and Karen eventually divorced. Karen said after they went into hiding under witness protection, their marriage and life became dull and boring, everyday humdrum and she divorced him.

What does THAT tell you about what women want? Excitement, high drama, passion, danger, feeling a sense of "protection" from their man. I think there is some truth to that at least for some women.

My ex was always getting into fist fights to protect my "honor," or now in retrospect, perhaps HE felt disrespected.

I wonder what Henry felt, if he beat the crap out of the guy to protect Karen's honor OR did HE feel disrespected?

Or perhaps a little of both?

that was fer sure both , and then he was a neighbor.
That’s like callin Henry a straight up B1tch basically