I may be overanalyzing but...is creating value the same as trying to impress a woman?

[CasanovaFrankenstein]

When a guy attempts to create value in the eyes of a woman (whether it's Neil Strauss doing the palm reading and handwriting analyzing, or if it's the guy in the Tao of Steve mixing fancy drinks), isn't it just another way of saying he's trying to impress the woman? But Tao of Steve guy's first rule was "be desireless". If he was desireless, why would he try to impress this chick by mixing the drinks? And if you are trying to impress a woman, isn't that....yknow, bad? As far as being a DJ goes anyway? Aren't we supposed to just live to make ourselves happy and fvck what any woman thinks of us?

Also while I'm being a complete noob, could someone either explain to me the idea behind value (as the word is used in PUA circles), or refer me to a thread that explains it well? I did a search for "value" and it told me the word is too common and wouldn't search for it. What I'm trying to understand I guess is, because a guy can mix drinks or analyze handwriting or read palms, how in a woman's mind does that translate to "he's worthy of having sex with me"? Where's the connetion from point A to point B? Okay I'm done being a noob for now.

 

[everywomanshero]

If you look at most supposed PUAs, do you see anything weird going on? Google images of Tyler Durden, Mystery, etc. Therein lies your first clue.

Most men assume they have less value to a woman than day old fish. Therefore, they think they need to do something to impress her. Call it whatever you wish, what they are trying to do is entertain & impress the woman without going so overboard that she calls them out on it.

I think all of this can be OK for newbs who want to see that it is possible to co-construct almost any kind of reality in conversation with a woman, but as far as being necessary or sufficient conditions for seduction, IMO that's total BS.

It is not necessary to do any of these things to have great interactions with women. These guys think it is beause they are suffering from feelings of inferiority. They think they have to do something to be as good as the guys who women "naturally" are attracted to. So they try to watch other gys and copy attitudes, stories, etc. It's actually kind of sad, it reminds of those old, badling guys who are buying junk bonds & real estate after attenting some motivational seminar. So instead of buying swamp land in FL, now you have guys spending their savings hoping for some magic tricks to seduce women.

Second it is clearly not sufficient for maintaining relationships. If you look at what most PUAs say and then what really happens there is a striking contrast. Go on youtube and see pictures of women Mystery actually had relationships with. While some of them are attractive, many are just average at best. Would a man who had women knocking down his door really date an unattractive woman? If these conditions are sufficient for maintaing harems of women, why doesn't Mystery have 3 regular hotties. Hell even that old man Huh Hefner has that an he's like 80. The sad truth is Hugh Heffner at 80 has more going for him than any of these PUAs in their 30s. lol.

I'm not saying that their info is valueless, but as Gurus most of them tend to fall short of the mark. I think it's best to view these kinds of idealogies as stepping stones on the way to being normal rather than as an end goal of remaining weird but trying to be interesting.

 

[LeComteDeMonteCristo]

Here's my take on the first part of your question. It all depends on your frame of mind. It's never about the actions themselves.

My rule of the thumb is to always be adding value to every interaction, always be bring something to the table but never be expecting anything in return. This means assuming absolutely nothing. For example, if you want to read her palm do it because you want to express yourself, because you want to draw her into your world not because you think it will create interest or whatever.

In my opinion, this frame of mind is crucial for getting out of that reaction-seeking, trying-too-hard-to-impress mindset.

 

[Sandow]

Palm reading, games, handwriting anaysis isn't really recommended anymore. I can see Mystery doing it but thats because he's a magician, so it suits his character. But for the most part, its just dumb. It looks like your trying to impress and that is why it's never talked about anymore.

Now there's a difference between a DJ and PUA. A PUA has to make a quick impression, he's out to get laid, so he only has so much time to make a good impression. A DJ rather, isn't necesarily always trying to get new a$$. It's not uncommon for DJ to be in relationship, and he focuses more on himself than trying to impress others. He doesnt try to run any games and is true to himself.

if your mission is to get laid alot, then u should probably follow the life of a PUA. Yea its fake, dishonest and deceitful, but i think the results outweigh the negatives.

 

[Bonafide]

Its not trying to impress if its natural value. If your faking the funk, then you may have a problem.

 

[Technical1]

What is value?

Moods and feelings are "contagious" because we all mirror one another without trying. A guy in a great mood, determined to have fun but also just chilling and vibing with people, adds value, by letting his mood diffuse to other people, essentially sharing the good energy. That is my understanding of value. The value is the positive social interaction generated by this mindset.

 

[Existential]

If you're reaction seeking then you are sucking her value. Instead, one needs to be in the moment and simply having fun. You demonstrate value by being a cool guy that is completely comfortable with being himself.

If your internal state is contingent upon her reaction then you're trying to get something out of her. If you're simply a cool guy that is having fun and who is in the moment then you are demonstrating true value.

 

[Maxtro]

Despite what most of the board says, you do have to impress women to get them. If you don't impress a woman or attract her then you will never even be noticed by her.

The problem with women is that you have to impress them without them knowing that you are trying to impress them. You have to be subtle about it, almost modest. That way she is more excited by your thing than you are. You also want your actions to speak louder than your words.

I'm not really sure what value is and what things actually impress women. I have idea of what certain things will impress a woman but I don't posses any of them. The trick with showing value and impressing women is to naturally posses the qualities that they value.

 

[reset]

The problem with women is that you have to impress them without them knowing that you are trying to impress them.

Or better yet, not TRYING to impress them. This has a good chance of actually impressing them. Most guys try to impress them. So if you're not trying to impress them, but are just being confident and fun, there's a good chance that will impress them, and they will do the work for you. The key is to not care if your'e impressing.

 

[Maxtro]

LOL sorry reset, by not trying to impress a woman, odds are you won't even get noticed by her. I don't know why you quoted that part of my post. Since you didn't even address it.

Most guys try to impress them

That is true, but most guys are too obvious. They don't hide the fact that they are trying to impress women. That's why I said what I said in the quote.

I agree with your last sentence and it matches what I said in my last sentence. The trick to not care if you're impressing her or not, is by naturally having qualities or do things that they think are cool. Or have things that your passionate about and that you really care about.

What do you mean by confident and fun?

 

[reset]

LOL sorry reset, by not trying to impress a woman, odds are you won't even get noticed by her.

It is a FACT that women are more attracted to men who do not go out of their way to try to validate themselves to a woman. Who do not feel the need to prove anything to a woman. Who are just themselves. Who are natural around the woman. Women are impressed by THAT. Because it makes them feel a certain way. But being THAT WAY, and TRYING TO IMPRESS, cancel each other out. You can't have both. You are either impressive and not worrying about impressing, or you are not impressive and worrying about impressing.

You're saying this stuff because you don't believe you have enough value in yourself. You don't see it possible that a woman could be happy with you who you are (since you are not happy with who you are) and the only way you could get a girl's attention is to TRY to be something you're not. By faking. Chicks sense that. It turns them off.

EDIT--flip the script. Women actually get more satisfaction out of trying to impress the guy. This is why qualifying is important, and why qualifying turns the girl on. Start asking yourself if the girl has done anything to impress you, to be worthy of your time and consideration. That's prize mentality.

 

[Maxtro]

See, I can't agree with you because I have been natural around women my whole life and I haven't gotten any girls interested. I do not fake who I am. Actually the real me is very quiet and unless I force myself to talk to people I'll just sit there in silence. So I guess I am being fake by being more outgoing than I really am.

Who are just themselves. Who are natural around the woman

Wow, just themselves? Are you serious? Being yourself is the worst thing you can do if being yourself isn't working. I know that if I want to get anywhere with women I need to change many many things about myself.

As for qualifying a girl. The mere fact that she is hot and doesn't have a bitchy personality makes her good enough. I don't qualify girls now because of that and also I'm afraid of being a suck-up.

 

[reset]

Are you serious? Being yourself is the worst thing you can do if being yourself isn't working. I know that if I want to get anywhere with women I need to change many many things about myself.

There you go. Improve yourself. That has nothing to do with trying to impress women, it has all to do with trying to impress yourself. If you don't like who you are, start working on THAT. Women follow that. You don't get self-esteem by getting a woman. First you get self-esteem, then get a woman. (if you want to do it right).

So take all the energy you're wasting on trying to impress women and figure out who you are and learn to improve yourself. Then being yourself, your best self, will set everything else in motion.

Get out of the victim mindset and pity-party though. That will not help you. If you don't like how you act and behave, work on changing it. You have all the power. Don't give it to others.

 

[Interceptor]

Creating value means being charismatic, charming, and being complementary to the other people around you.
While you shoudln't interpret it as being an entertainer, being a HV guy is about givng off good vibes that people want to be around.

Having a certain outlook on life, and having a perspective that people enjoy feeling and can feel themselves be enlightened in some cases.
Having a sense of humor helps too. Being NON judgemental and NON Critical is extremely important. Let people BE THEMESELVES around you. This is important too.
Being a 'go to' guy is also HV.
Seeing through facades and personas and CONNECTING deeply and intimately with the other person is also HV.




It is also having a little bit of a social connection sometimes. Knowing good places to go to. Knowing cool people to introduce to.

And being a cool person to hang around with in general.

 

[Maxtro]

You don't get self-esteem by getting a woman. First you get self-esteem, then get a woman. (if you want to do it right).

I've heard this many times. Doesn't make it easier though. And frankly it makes no sense to me. I don't know why I've made getting a woman the most important thing in my life. It doesn't make any sense for me to base my self-worth on having a girl or not. I don't know how I got so screwed up or how to fix it. I know it's natural for a man to want a girl but my level of desperation isn't natural.

So take all the energy you're wasting on trying to impress women and figure out who you are and learn to improve yourself. Then being yourself, your best self, will set everything else in motion.

Get out of the victim mindset and pity-party though. That will not help you. If you don't like how you act and behave, work on changing it. You have all the power. Don't give it to others.

Actually I'm not putting any energy in trying to impress women. The only things I do because of women is try to look good everyday and use a little cologne. I also make it a point to have conversations with women I'm next to.

There aren't a lot of things left that I know of on how to improve myself. I'm a broke student so I can't wear the most stylish clothes and even if I could afford them I wouldn't know what to buy. I work out on a regular basis and I'm seeing some improvements but it's going so slowww.

The victim mindset. I have about a thousand things that I dislike about myself. I try not to think of them but it's very easy to make me crash. I just have to hear or see one thing that makes me think about what I do or don't have and then I loose all my energy.

Great answer Interceptor.

being a HV guy is about givng off good vibes that people want to be around.

Can people (more importantly woman) tell when you are trying to fake giving off good vibes? When I'm around girls I am more friendly, upbeat and try to be talkative. When I get home I completely crash, my mood becomes sour and I often find myself posting here.

I wonder which side of me is real? I wonder if girls can tell that something isn't quite right with me and that turns them off?

 

[Interceptor]

Max, if tyou are going to extremes, and in the presenc of people when you do, yes people will notice it.

Max, you're still at the mercy of your environment. you still base your happiness on others.
You still look for validation, and approval.
You just cannot seem to feel your self esteem and positive and constructive mind frames. You need to base your confidence off of that, not on whether people accept you or reject you or whatever.
You still don't value yourself. And you place so much importance on having a woman because you feel that when you do , she will make it all better, and you will be accepted and validated and THEN you can allow yourself to feel worthy, and have value.
Right now you equate self esteem and confidence with having a girlfriend.
But this is BACKWARDs. As most women will run away form men who don't self value themselves, and look to women to validate them and make them feel whole and accepted.

"Finally! I'm with a woman! I'm not a freak anymore! I'm human and worthy!"

THIS DOES NOT WORK!!!

Because she will eventually LEAVE your ass!

Where will your 'confidence' and 'self esteem' and 'self worth' be then??!!

It will go down the toliet!
And you'll be back to square one, the beginning! Loathing yourself and feeling unworthy!

WHY?
Because you based it on someone else's decsions and judgements about you.

You place more importance and value on someone else's opinuion about you, THAN YOU!
No wonder women stay away form you.

You believe and reflect that you have no self worth.

this has to change if you want success.








dude, I honestly don't know how to get through to you.
You are one tough nut to crack.
It's like you intensively resist good beliefs and ideas in favor of negative and self limiting ones.

 

[Maxtro]

Yes I am a tough nut. Thank you for trying to chisel away at it. You are a man of much insight. You know me almost better than I know myself.

Right now you equate self esteem and confidence with having a girlfriend.
But this is BACKWARDs. As most women will run away form men who don't self value themselves, and look to women to validate them and make them feel whole and accepted.

"Finally! I'm with a woman! I'm not a freak anymore! I'm human and worthy!"

THIS DOES NOT WORK!!!

Because she will eventually LEAVE your ass!

Where will your 'confidence' and 'self esteem' and 'self worth' be then??!!

It will go down the toliet!
And you'll be back to square one, the beginning! Loathing yourself and feeling unworthy!

I have no doubt that my first girlfriend will dump me. I actually kind of expect it. I've only dated one girl and she left after two weeks. She was a fat girl and I considered her way below my standards. I only went out with her because I was desperate and she basically made all the moves. I had my plan of using her for sex, getting my confidence boost then leaving her for a better girl. Unfortunately a lot of bad things happened in succession and I didn't have a clue how to handle them. So I screwed up by saying some things and she left. I never did get to have sex with her.

How does this all relate? I feel that once I can get my magic one, having regular sex with a girl I like, that I'll be cured of my "illness." It doesn't matter if she leaves me or not because I would have accomplished my goal. I'll know that I'm not a freak. Of course this is only my mindset now and it may be completely different once I've actually found a girl who likes me.

 

[Interceptor]

I feel that once I can get my magic one, having regular sex with a girl I like, that I'll be cured of my "illness."

This is perhaps one of the WORST beliefs any man can have.

This is a road straight into failure GUARANTEED.

 

[Technical1]

How does this all relate? I feel that once I can get my magic one, having regular sex with a girl I like, that I'll be cured of my "illness."

Wow.

If your posts weren't so consistent I would swear you're a DJ who comes here to parody AFC thinking in order to enlighten the rest of us.

Do you really think this way or are you sh1tting me? What illness have you got? Who told you you're sick? How did you realize that you have this illness?

 

[Maxtro]

This is perhaps one of the WORST beliefs any man can have.

This is a road straight into failure GUARANTEED.

Then I don't have a clue what to do.

Wow.

If your posts weren't so consistent I would swear you're a DJ who comes here to parody AFC thinking in order to enlighten the rest of us.

LOL that's a thought. I am like the stereotypical WBAFC. Some of my posts have led to some really great responses by some really enlightened posters. I hope that other members are also getting something out of those responses.

Do you really think this way or are you sh1tting me? What illness have you got? Who told you you're sick? How did you realize that you have this illness?

I think that something is wrong with me because I'm too desperate to get a girl. It's beyond normal and certainly not healthy. Interceptor did an excellent job of analyzing last night.

There is so much that I still don't understand.