I finally dated someone new...

[jophil28]

This thread raises some interesting points re dating etiquette and the changes that have "kinda sorta almost" taken place on the social landscape in the past 30 years- AND i have lived,dated,f**ked and crashed thru all of these years..I still get a tad befuddled wirh some situations..

Generally -
It is my understanding (at least Down Under ) that whomever issues the invite, picks up the billl, UNLESS there is a prior arrangement made between the two people to split the bill,"go Dutch ..etc".
I am old enough to still feel a tad uncomfortable about watching a woman reach into her purse for her share, however, I force myself to LET her pay half sometimes ..Ha !!
In theory, bill splitting is fine ,HOWEVER, itemizing each person's individual share is cringeworthy in the context of a "date".
That is what women do when the girls from the office go out for lunch. Out come the calculators and the pens for figuring it out on paper napkins ...

NOT manly behavior, IMHO

 

[joekerr31]

well 50/50 is common for the under 40 crowd.

afterall women are working and making as much as men, why should the man be paying for everything?

personally i think that women know that if they have a job and they don't pay their way a bit during the courtship phase that the guys interest will drop off rapidly OR he will expect to get laid in return.

i've found most women are more than happy to pay for their side of the date. or the more common thing is 'ill pay this time, you pay next time' scenario.

but with the over 40 crowd its a different generation. a lot of those women dont have university degrees or well paying jobs - they are still looking for a man to 'take care of them'. if he can't pay the dinner bill, well, that tells them everything they need to know.

 

[KarmaSutra]

i knew i should have written more in my original response but was running out the door.

he said he 'itemized the list'.... i can just picture the scene....

"hmmm. ok. so i had two beers and a steak. thats 25. multiplied by 15 per cent for taxes then multiply by 15 per cent for tip - now wait, is that 15 per cent before the taxes or after - lets go before. ok, 2 carry the 3 and subtract the 7. i owe 40 bucks. the rest is yours."

MOOD KILLER!!!!!!!!!!!

im not saying he did anything wrong by just paying HIS way, what i am saying though is that 'itemizing' the bill at the end of dinner is a mood killer.

usually when you are finished the waiter asked 'will this be one bill?" that's where you say "seperate bills please."

OR, if they don't ask and just bring you one bill then you give them the bill back and ask 'could we get seperate bills please?", then turn to your date nonchalantly and say 'it would take me all night to figure out what we each owe."

 

[jophil28]

. Some girls will say the guy has to pay, he ask u out so he should pay. Well girls don't ask guys out so that argument is bunk.

Hey swifty - girls down here ask men out occasionally .It may not be a " 5 star dinner date" BUT they approach guys and ask 'em out for coffee ,dancing or 31 Flavors...No biggie here in the city. Rural girls are more traditional, plus they are in the minority in country areas so rhey have higher value.

 

[Mr.Positive]

Gtarplyr, it's great that you are in a new apartment, getting a new start for yourself, and meeting new people! You are on the right path!

Don't let one bad date get to you. There are TONS of women out there looking for decent men.

My opinion on the paying issue, is that if I invite a woman on a date, I pay. I plan on paying, I don't offer to pay, but just pay...because I asked her to go. That being said, I do notice when a gal pays for me. Like Joe said, it will raise my IL up through the roof, because it says a lot about her as a person.

Your situation was a little different though, because she recommended that restuarant and it was expensive. In that case, splitting the bill would have been fine. But going forward, never itemize the bill. Just pay half and keep the money issue as not being an issue at all.

Although, in reality, I would have offered to pay the full bill, and if she didn't at least pay half (since she recommended the expensive place), I would have nexted her.

Any woman that recommends a pricey restuarant, and doesn't help with the bill, is bad news, IMO. There are a lot of places that serve great food and inexpensive prices. Pricey places are for special occasions.

 

[GtarPlayr73]

After reading through all of your replies, i am convinced that money was the key issue. I agree that itemizing the bill was a mood killer. I didn't itemize out loud, but rather scanned the check and, because she is a self-proclaimed math whiz, i jokingly showed her the bill and asked her to work it out. Cringeworthy, but i was trying to be friendly and humorous about it. I felt really shitty about not feeling more relaxed about the expensive level of the place. I should have paid the extra $10 to split the bill and informed her of my financial situation for next time. I'm sure she figured that because i was in corporate IT, i would have no prob with the restaurant's expensive menu...

She really dug me on the first date and said so. She followed it up with high IL emails and her excitement at seeing me again was palpable. Would an email acknowledging my lack of financial grace at the Italian restaurant and an explaination of my current financial situation salvage things or should i next her? What's the mature and responsible course of action? I assume that when a woman is turned-off early on, it's permanent and beyond repair.

I also agree that i wasn't exciting enough. I felt kinda stiff at times, but then again, if the girl is really grabbing my interest and we are connecting, then i have no problem being exciting. I'm not sure how i could be more exciting. One thing i noticed is that i kind of go passive when i am on a date or around a woman i am interested in. I am not a man of inititiative, action, passion. I defer to the woman, let her lead, let her talk. This is really crucial and if one thing good came of this date, it is the obviousness of my "date passivity". I did take the inititiative and do all the planning on one date years ago and the woman commented very favorably about it and i certainly felt on the ball for it.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...She really dug me on the first date and said so. She followed it up with high IL emails and her excitement at seeing me again was palpable. ...

What do you guys have in common?

 

[decades]

You spent too much money before qualifying her. you could have gotten to know each other very well by doing something for free like walking in a park. This is a lousy way to date. Why spend all that money and time on someone so early in the process? Bottom line is she didn't perceive you as the "prize" and Alpha. I agree that you need to quit labeling people introvert and extrovert. it's SO silly and will get you nowhere. At least stop doing it in your posts here.

 

[insomniac]

I'm not sure how i could be more exciting. One thing i noticed is that i kind of go passive when i am on a date or around a woman i am interested in. I am not a man of inititiative, action, passion. I defer to the woman, let her lead, let her talk. This is really crucial and if one thing good came of this date, it is the obviousness of my "date passivity". I did take the inititiative and do all the planning on one date years ago and the woman commented very favorably about it and i certainly felt on the ball for it.

It's good that you recognize this, and very easy to correct. Always have a plan on where to go, how to pay, what to do afterwards, etc.. Decide it beforehand and follow through with it. When the check comes, there'll be no fumbling or indecisiveness. You just grab it to pay or tell her you're splitting it. If she's offended that you're not paying it all, then congratulations, you've just exposed her as someone not worth your time or money.

You can pay for dinner and not come of as a chump. It's how you conduct yourself the rest of the time that's going to determine that. Take charge and do it confidently no matter what it is.

 

[Sinistar]

She really dug me on the first date and said so. She followed it up with high IL emails and her excitement at seeing me again was palpable. Would an email acknowledging my lack of financial grace at the Italian restaurant and an explaination of my current financial situation salvage things or should i next her? What's the mature and responsible course of action? I assume that when a woman is turned-off early on, it's permanent and beyond repair.

...your 1st impression has been made. Trying to go back is your AFC side trying to use logic to keep you doing what your unplugged self knows not to be true. Don't go there. It doesn't work that way.

So this one didn't work so well. Big deal. So just frame it that way.

People are dying in wars, fighting cancer and all sort or serious stuff. In the grand scheme of things a date or two that didn't work out is so trivial it's stupid. Plus, you're on the right track. You've got your own place. You're spinnin' plates. Chalk this one up to experience. Detach emotionally right now to prevent one-itis and get out there again using this knowledge to make your future dates better.

Here's another tidbit for you. This experience just exposed (and sliced off) another chunk of AFC you weren't aware of. While the sensation (ie awareness) is still fresh, try to think of other similar areas where your AFC belief system will let you down and hack them off too. With awareness comes responsibility

 

[moveup]

I am bored and creeped out by your description of this date, I can only imagine how she must have felt.

Yesterday, i was late leaving for her place and got there 15 minutes late (i called her and told her i would be late). She said it was no problem, but i thought it had to go in her mental checklist as a strike.

You aren't even there yet and you're already giving yourself strikes??

People are late, it happens, it's no big deal.

She gave me the tour of her apartment and then we made plans for the Boston Aquarium.

I estimate she makes $60 - $70K

WHY are you bothering to estimate this, and WHY on earth does it matter??

She paid for our IMAX movie tickets and said i could cover the Aquarium tickets. When we got out of the movie, we discovered that the Aquarium tickets were significantly more expensive than we anticipated and we decided to head to the North End where she had reserved a table in an Italian restaurant.

Oh...good god. "I'll get the tickets...oh wait these are expensive, forget it." And wait, SHE had reserved a table? How on earth did you let this happen?

Convo in the cafe was lackluster.

You think??

I complimented her on her beautiful feet.

Now she's bored AND creeped out.


I'm going to stop here, but jiminy christmas, you're chalking this up to "she's an extrovert and I'm an introvert?" I'm not trying to be insulting at all, but you need a reality check that nobody seems to be giving you here.

 

[Latinoman]

I agree with Moveup. I gave him a "reallity check" about 6 or 7 threads ago (about two or so months ago). Some people (well, one person) felt I was kind of insulting.

 

[Bible_Belt]

yeah, me too. Those are good points in a tough love kind of way. But just don't make those mistakes again, and it all works out. Dating is a skill, and like anything else, you get better with practice.

 

[GtarPlayr73]

Well, before anyone here could say yea or nay to the idea, i emailed her and owned up to not splitting the tab as a faux pas. I know, i know. AFC move. Whatever. I felt i HAD to, regardless of whether it was effective or not. I wanted her to know that i "knew" and wasn't just blindly ignorant to my own mistakes. She wrote back and practically scolded me for even thinking i had done anything wrong and then she went into detail about how SHE is a notorious, obsessive cheapskate who always has her friends rolling their eyes in disgust. She said who i am is a good thing and to just go with it. Lastly, she advised me to never go into debt for a woman and that a good woman would never lead me to debt.

As much as i would have preferred to not admit that i emailed her, i had to mention it because i want your take on her reply as it runs completely counter to almost all of the opinions here. Either she is telling the truth or she is being utterly fake and saying whatever she thinks i want to hear to get me to go away.

Moveup, i'm not sure i disagree with you, but could you explain why you think it was creepy for me to comp her on her feet? Was it because it came off as random flattery? Between you and me, I really meant it and i wanted her to feel good by the compliment. How can such motives be "creepy"? Would she not appreciate such an observation? Are men not allowed to express appreciation? Must the armor of indifference be so total? Where does honesty come in?

One more thing, the weather on Saturday was the hottest and most humid day in recent memory. We were both in the heat's grip all day long and we were well exhausted and yawning when the IMAX movie finished. So, i think we were both not on the top of our game. I remembered thinking about how tired and "out of it" i was and how my low energy level had to be affecting my ability to be lively and exciting. It had to be similar for her too.

 

[MacAvoy]

I think everyone here is missing a second crucial point which is directly related to the itemizing the bill. He came off as a total cheap skate, even before the itemized bill saga, that was just the final nail in the coffin. I'm surprised she even let him in her house.

She paid for our IMAX movie tickets and said i could cover the Aquarium tickets. When we got out of the movie, we discovered that the Aquarium tickets were significantly more expensive than we anticipated and we decided to head to the North End where she had reserved a table in an Italian restaurant.

She already paid for Imax tickets. Then they backed out of going to the Aquarium because it was too much. She makes good money, she knew how much the tickets cost, he looked like a cheapskate right then and there.

So he looked like a total cheapO when she paid for his Imax ticket, then he made a fuss when she was only going to pay half the bill instead of her exact amount. Then she overpaid to slap it in his face.

But at least he's moved on (somewhat) from the landlady and is putting more lines out there.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo GtarPlayr73,


This Sosuave Army is a deverse one. There are MANY different methods that we men here use to teach and/or get our points across. Some of us use tough love...and some of use tough love, but WITHOUT the "LOVE". lol But I think our motivations are still the same though...

Either way, I believe you already know that most of us here want to see you (and OURSELVES as well), do better out here in the field, and to obtain some REAL quantifiable success. So I, for one, want to add my voice to those who give you a "pat on the back" for having THE BALLS to just get out there and "DO THE DAMM THANG" in the first place.

You just keep on doing the things that you SEE that are working for you, and keep jettisoning the things that you SEE that are not. From the comments you made in one of your last post, you are already further along in area of DJ TACTIC CALIBRATION than you think you are.

Believe it or not, many people come to us, sign up, read the DJ Bible, and NEVER question "some" of the things it espouses.

What YOU have already discovered is that there really is NO guarranteed strategy or tactic that will get you the SAME results, or the same success with EVERY woman. Getting good at this dating shyt is as much about being "light on your feet" as it is about just being armed with knowledge.

What the DJ Bible really offers are INVALUABLE guideposts and rules for you to live by as you make your way across the burning sands of the "dating diaspora"-----on your way to being a BETTER MAN overall.

Think of all the DJ rules as mostly tried and true TRAINING WHEELS. Many men have taken severe hits FOR US in order to provide us with these blueprints that we use to build ourselves up into better men----so we honor THEM, and their sacrafice by using them.

So it's okay from time to time to question some of the things you learn here, but only do so After you have actually put that knowledge to the test----in the field (like you are already doing).

I appreciate your honesty about the "emailing her" thing, and for the other things that you, and others share with us here. This is how we all learn. This is how we all STAY ON POINT. By being honest----especially with ourselves. I've been where you are. And CLOSURE is something that no one can give you but you YOURSELF. And the methods you choose to "get it" will grow and evolve over time.

There will always be differences of opinion, and there will always be exceptions to the rules. But I think most here would agree that inner game and overall CONFIDENCE are the goalposts you should be continuously aiming at.

The more you use the stuff you learn here, the more confident you will become at wielding the "DJ weapons". Why? Because you will have battle-tested them YOUR DAMM SELF. You won't have to ASK whether or not this will work or that will work...you'll KNOW it by experience. And your confidence will grow by leaps and bounds.

Confidence is situation specific. And we GAIN confidence by remembering our past successes and then transferring that inner sense of empowerment over to the OTHER areas of our lives that STILL challenge us.

Many of us here have not forgotten our own humble beginnings earmarked by strategic stumbles, devastating blows to our egos, and severe bouts or ONEitis.

And those of us who have not...SALUTE YOU.

Remember this:

LIFE is always a learning experience. Continue to take adivice from the men here who both "show", and "give" you respect. Trial and error makes us ALL better man OVER TIME, "if" we are PERSISTANT. The acquisition AND APPLICATION of the knowledge you get here WILL create great CONFIDENCE within you.

And a man with confidence, self-control, and a good sense of humor can do ALMOST anything in the dating arena and still KNOW he'll ultimately be SUCCESSFUL.

And you'll know when you've reached THAT level when you NO LONGER feel the need to SECOND-GUESS yourself in the field.


March on.

 

[st_99]

I think the itemizing was very lame..

BUT, having said that, it sounds like it really wouldn't have mattered and you actually did yourself a favor and saved a couple bucks. I wouldn't beat yourself up over it, like you said you 2 were opposites and that never works.

When you click with someone (that could take a while) you'll now it, and conversating will be EASY.

 

[joekerr31]

. Would an email acknowledging my lack of financial grace at the Italian restaurant and an explaination of my current financial situation salvage things or should i next her? What's the mature and responsible course of action? I assume that when a woman is turned-off early on, it's permanent and beyond repair.

I'd just let this one go. the problem is that the moment a woman decisively backs away from you, theres basically no way to get her interested in you again without making her the prize.

thats NOT what you want.

just chalk it up as a good learning experience and on to the next one.

 

[GtarPlayr73]

you are SO right, joekerr. The female mind is capable of utter finality.

 

[Latinoman]

Well, before anyone here could say yea or nay to the idea, i emailed her and owned up to not splitting the tab as a faux pas. I know, i know. AFC move. Whatever. I felt i HAD to, regardless of whether it was effective or not. I wanted her to know that i "knew" and wasn't just blindly ignorant to my own mistakes. She wrote back and practically scolded me for even thinking i had done anything wrong and then she went into detail about how SHE is a notorious, obsessive cheapskate who always has her friends rolling their eyes in disgust. She said who i am is a good thing and to just go with it. Lastly, she advised me to never go into debt for a woman and that a good woman would never lead me to debt.

As much as i would have preferred to not admit that i emailed her, i had to mention it because i want your take on her reply as it runs completely counter to almost all of the opinions here. Either she is telling the truth or she is being utterly fake and saying whatever she thinks i want to hear to get me to go away.

Moveup, i'm not sure i disagree with you, but could you explain why you think it was creepy for me to comp her on her feet? Was it because it came off as random flattery? Between you and me, I really meant it and i wanted her to feel good by the compliment. How can such motives be "creepy"? Would she not appreciate such an observation? Are men not allowed to express appreciation? Must the armor of indifference be so total? Where does honesty come in?

One more thing, the weather on Saturday was the hottest and most humid day in recent memory. We were both in the heat's grip all day long and we were well exhausted and yawning when the IMAX movie finished. So, i think we were both not on the top of our game. I remembered thinking about how tired and "out of it" i was and how my low energy level had to be affecting my ability to be lively and exciting. It had to be similar for her too.

So...you think that what she wrote is going against what we are saying in here? Hahaha.

I don't see you going on ANOTHER date with her. You have become "asexual" in her eyes.