Homoseuxality is natural

Luveno

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Homosexuality is a great mystery.

Studies have shown that the electical brain activity of homosexual men matches the activity of straight women, but not the activity of straight men.

This raises the question: does homosexuality have a genetic and therefore metabolic component, or are the patterns changed as a result of their homosexuality?
 

Engetsu

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Originally posted by Alpine
Ahh, the old chicken or the egg up the arse conundrum.
There's no conundrum. It's the egg.
 

undesputable

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Alpine,

thanks for the civilized reply, I know other people would have tried to get in a little internet fight. Let me tell you, I have never brought up a gay topic before, I just like to state my opinion when they come up.

You and I have a very different point of view, and thats fine lets leave it at that. I dont think i will ever be persuaded into believeing that theres anything right about homosexulaity. It is not that i have any unresolved questions or issues about who I am, its just the fact that homosexuality is very degreading, and has a very negative effect on society as a whole. I hate that the media puts more emphasize on gay topics than on topics such as having a healthful family, and persuing the good values that makes a healthful family in the first place.
 

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A-Unit

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Re:

On hormones, confirmed by studies already, ENOUGH exposure to any hormone alters the external results. So, boys become boys through the emergence of testosterone. However, levels differ, based on the genetics of the mother, what she eats, and so forth.

Women who already have very high levels of estrogen, in concert with exposure to high levels of estrogen through foods and breast feeding can feminize her son. Moreover, if the father doesn't properly indoctrinate and guide the boy into adulthood, he'll become gay, or at least a FEMINIZED man, which is all a GAY man is.

Read for instance the book: Hero's, Rogue's, and Lover's, which talks about hormones and their influence on history and life.

The increase of testosterone in animals, particularly meat and dairy products as well as day to day chemicals has lead to women growing and maturing faster, become more aggressive, and even being hairier, despite all their attempts to wax it away.

I will say this...and if it's an attack or not, so be it...gay shows are far more sexual than straight ones. Take for instance Will & Grace. Their "innuendos" if they keep their subtlety about them, are far more graphic. They make more comments about SPECIFIC sexual things than just the act of sex. In Massachusetts, booklets were made on Gay sex and actually passed out in school, promoting the agenda.

Why?
What's the need to make it right or wrong?
Where are the heterosexuals who stand up to promote it?
Why is it needed at all?

To me, it seems like you say "It's ok, here's why," the little kid will feel ashamed. Some kids were told masturbating was bad, so they felt ashamed of their c0cks and in some ways, hid their full masculine energy. Yet, most people do it and come to grips with their own sexuality BY masturbating. When you surround it with some AIR or STIGMA, you bring in GUILT and CONSCIENCE.

I don't CARE what you do. If you came into this world wanting to only see your own sex, fine. Your relationship has no implications on my life. It's when it becomes an ISSUE, as it did with gay marriage that your decisions begin implicating my life and I have to take a stand when it calls to question my own life. But somehow, an agenda was made and an issue created and it forces people to choose. Instead of just being a phenomenon as it is, it becomes a way of life, a way to be born.


A person is GAY by choice. Yes. They have WORKING, FUNCTIONING organs, they simply, by way of HORMONAL feelings, CHOOSE to not procreate and instead deprive women and society of their progeny. A gay male and gay female could get together produce offspring AND still choose partners. And quite frankly, that wouldn't be so weird, since they're so close to what each other needs. The gay female is a masculinized woman, and the gay man, a feminized man, precisely what they're desiring. Which in some ways is what some really weird Male=Female relationships are like, where the woman wears the pants, calls the shots, and takes the lead.


__________________________


A-Unit
 
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Fellow DJ's take notice of the Homos on this site - they use terms like "homophobia" and "gay" - the proper term is "Pervert" - they have perverted their natural state as a man and pervert children!!!

They try to make evil fair-seeming!! Wicked bastards!!!!
 
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Originally posted by Alpine
Undisputable,

Look, I've never brought up a gay topic on this board, ever. You and Homophobe keep on going on about homos, not me. Maybe you two should move in together.

Although you don't realise it, I and many others here are trying to help you understand that the idea that being gay is WRONG, is just a belief.

There is tons of modern research and has been known since the beginning of man that homophobia stems from sexual insecurity, and has been fuelled by modern religous interpretations.

I'm not saying you want to brown your meat, merely that you have some unresolved questions about who you are.

As I say blokes who have no stirrings for the boys, don't really give a monkeys what they get up to. If you become open minded about what I have just written I'm sure you will end up feeling happier and ironically more of a man.
You bytch, don't make sense!!!!!!! You are a faggot and corrupt and wicked in your attempt to make evil fair-seeming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Go yo Homo hell!!!!
 

Engetsu

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Originally posted by Alpine
What do you mean, sorta less vaseline? :D
LOL good one
 

ROOKIE OF THE YEAR

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BEING GAY IS NOT A NORMAL THING. IN FACT, IT IS A MAJOR SIN, AND YOU SHOULD OVERCOME THIS OR YOU GO TO HECK.

THE DEMONS MAY HAVE MANIPULATED YOU!
 

John_Galt

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ShortTimer said:
I actually submitted this paper for my philosophy class.

Anyhow, I see you 'tards are getting way off track and some of you really have your heads up your asses when it comes to reality. Thought I'd educate some of the dumb****s on this site. You're not gonna see results until you GET REAL about ****. The homophobes are dragging **** down and need to be curbed now before their assanine theories get out of control.

Anyhow, on with my paper:


Contrary to certain popular claims, homosexuality is not an unnatural behavior. First we should examine what exactly is meant when opponents claim homosexuality is “unnatural.” From this we can examine the argument that nature does not intend for this use of our sexual organs. Finally we can ponder what, if any evolutionary advantage homosexuality offers.

Opponents have argued that homosexuality is “unnatural,” but what exactly do they mean when they say this? This argument would seem on the surface to be ridiculous. Nothing unnatural can exist, that is true by the very definition of the world “natural.” So perhaps that is not what the unnaturalness argument is saying. Instead perhaps what is meant is “when we say something is not natural, we mean that it is a product of human artifice (Gruen, Sex, 45).” This would seem more reasonable but yet it would also be untrue of homosexuality. Biologists have observed in the field homosexual acts in various other species and have observed such acts in our closest animal cousins such as the chimpanzee. While certainly it does happen in the animal kingdom and also in humans it would seem this behavior is not the norm. Could then we point to it and say it is perverse? While “the concept of perversion can hardly fail to be evaluative in some sense” we should remember that a statistical deviance in and of itself is no reason to condemn anything morally. Perhaps then the unnaturalness argument is trying to tell us that we are somehow using our organs wrong. Some point out that the purpose of the sexual organs is obviously reproduction. Well, those who have had any interaction with their own sexual organs certainly realize that those same organs also obviously bring pleasure in various forms. It would seem a disservice to finding the truth if we should ignore either of these things. While sexual organs can be used for reproduction, it is also true that is not their only function. So if a sexual organs purpose is both reproduction and pleasure, among other possible uses, then this context also makes homosexual acts within the natural use of the organs. So it would seem the unnaturalness argument is saying that nature did not intend for these organs to be used in such a manner (Trevas, Sex 239).

From this it could then be counter-argued that while homosexuality might be natural in the fact that it occurs in reality it is actually a misuse of nature. Perhaps then we should view homosexuality as a square peg in a round hole problem. Our sexual organs can certainly bring pleasure but other body parts do that as well. The only thing our sexual organs do that no other organs do is serve the function of reproduction. From this would seem that should homosexuality be embraced then if enough members of our species practiced it we would “promulgate the termination of the human race.” This would seem reasonable but the error arises because of how nature is commonly understood. We can say sex organs, or any organs for that matter, are intended for a certain use but we would be wrong. Evolution, or Nature in general, does not “intend” anything. This can be a very deceptive trap. For nature, or evolution to “intend” anything there must be some conscious force behind it. As yet we have found no consciousness to either of these phenomenon. Perhaps this would seem to be the splitting of hairs but this is actually illuminating to our subject. If nature does not “intend” for anything then nothing has a “natural” use. Of course one could say “but if nature did intend for something...” but that’s the point: nature does not intend for anything. Continuing to think about the subject in such a way as intend or not-intend is simply incorrect. Or perhaps we could take another route to this. If one can still not accept that nature does not intend anything as people intend things then homosexuality should be viewed as what nature intended. If our organs have function because of what nature intended then so too homosexuality must have some function because nature gave rise to it (Trevas, Sex, 155).

So if nature did “intend” for homosexuality to exits then what purpose does it serve? A better way of asking this question is “what evolutionary advantage does homosexuality offer?” To many looking for an advantage to homosexuality would seem to be a contradictory notion. But on this issue we should attempt to wrap our brains around the subject before dismissing it out of hand. In prison we see homosexual behavior practiced by those who would not normally view themselves as homosexual. So in this case at least we can see one adaptive function of homosexuality. In the absence of access to the other gender homosexuality would offer an outlet for the human sex drive. With this as a starting point we could then imagine temporary homosexual behavior in young males and females who live in a society where female virginity is prized. While they do not live in a literal prison their culture would restrict the access to the other gender and thus their sex drives could be expressed temporarily in this fashion. While these two examples are not the only conceivable circumstances we can see from them the general principle that temporary homosexual behavior can be adaptive. Temporary homosexual behavior is obviously not the only kind and now we should turn to permanent homosexual behavior. Permanent homosexuals have removed themselves from the so-called mating game. While this would seem maladaptive for there own genes could this behavior somehow help others? We can see other examples of those who have removed themselves from the mating game in the form of various religion’s priests and other holy men and women. They are removed from regular reproduction but yet serve what many see as a beneficial social function. So perhaps homosexuals have evolved in humans to be a support mechanism for those who do reproduce. This and the next argument are both treading in dangerous waters. The last could be used by some to promote a kind of homosexual slavery and the next eugenics against homosexuals. Permanent homosexuals, if allowed to practice as they desire shall not reproduce. Perhaps this is another intent of nature. Perhaps those who would be permanent homosexuals are not “meant” to reproduce. I fear this last argument could be construed as a condemnation of homosexuals in the sense that “nature found them unfit to reproduce” or “your genes are broken.” This is not the intent of that line of exploration, it is simply a possible reason why things are they way they are. Whatever the case it would not seem reasonable to say “it is simply bad science to go on arguing that human homosexual activity is biologically unnatural (Trevas, Sex, 266).”

Once we understood what exactly was meant by “unnatural” we could then dissect this argument against homosexuality properly. Then we examined if homosexuality was an improper use of sexual organs and found no solid ground there. Finally we examined some possibilities as to what evolutionary advantage homosexuality offers. Thus we can now, rather safely I would say, come to the conclusion that the argument that homosexuality is unnatural is itself incorrect.
I agree. The people that hate homosexuals are very very insecure.
 

THE_ADDMAN

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I have no problem with gay ppl. only with gay ppl who have a problem with straight people.

we have a guy like that at work. hes a real hetero-basher.
 

howardalex

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woah guys chill out - if you don't like gays, don't hang around them, simple as!

if anything they're good 'cos they're the only guys who'll hang around with your girl without wanting to fvck her!
 

dirtyvibe

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earthshyne said:
Where have you been? This assumption is so wrong it's hard to know where to start. But, instead of shredding the argument, I'll allow the late Stephen Jay Gould to do it for me.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_nonmoral.html
Scientists find the beginning of morality in primate behaviour (morality = product of evolution)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/sc...in&oref=slogin

Some animals are surprisingly sensitive to the plight of others. Chimpanzees, who cannot swim, have drowned in zoo moats trying to save others. Given the chance to get food by pulling a chain that would also deliver an electric shock to a companion, rhesus monkeys will starve themselves for several days.

The Beginnings of Morality? Biologists argue that these and other social behaviors are the precursors of human morality. They further believe that if morality grew out of behavioral rules shaped by evolution, it is for biologists, not philosophers or theologians, to say what these rules are.

Moral philosophers do not take very seriously the biologists? bid to annex their subject, but they find much of interest in what the biologists say and have started an academic conversation with them.

The original call to battle was sounded by the biologist Edward O. Wilson more than 30 years ago, when he suggested in his 1975 book ?Sociobiology? that ?the time has come for ethics to be removed temporarily from the hands of the philosophers and biologicized.? He may have jumped the gun about the time having come, but in the intervening decades biologists have made considerable progress.

Last year Marc Hauser, an evolutionary biologist at Harvard, proposed in his book ?Moral Minds? that the brain has a genetically shaped mechanism for acquiring moral rules, a universal moral grammar similar to the neural machinery for learning language. In another recent book, ?Primates and Philosophers,? the primatologist Frans de Waal defends against philosopher critics his view that the roots of morality can be seen in the social behavior of monkeys and apes.

Dr. de Waal, who is director of the Living Links Center at Emory University, argues that all social animals have had to constrain or alter their behavior in various ways for group living to be worthwhile. These constraints, evident in monkeys and even more so in chimpanzees, are part of human inheritance, too, and in his view form the set of behaviors from which human morality has been shaped.

Many philosophers find it hard to think of animals as moral beings, and indeed Dr. de Waal does not contend that even chimpanzees possess morality. But he argues that human morality would be impossible without certain emotional building blocks that are clearly at work in chimp and monkey societies.

Dr. de Waal?s views are based on years of observing nonhuman primates, starting with work on aggression in the 1960s. He noticed then that after fights between two combatants, other chimpanzees would console the loser. But he was waylaid in battles with psychologists over imputing emotional states to animals, and it took him 20 years to come back to the subject.

He found that consolation was universal among the great apes but generally absent from monkeys ? among macaques, mothers will not even reassure an injured infant. To console another, Dr. de Waal argues, requires empathy and a level of self-awareness that only apes and humans seem to possess. And consideration of empathy quickly led him to explore the conditions for morality.

Though human morality may end in notions of rights and justice and fine ethical distinctions, it begins, Dr. de Waal says, in concern for others and the understanding of social rules as to how they should be treated. At this lower level, primatologists have shown, there is what they consider to be a sizable overlap between the behavior of people and other social primates.

Social living requires empathy, which is especially evident in chimpanzees, as well as ways of bringing internal hostilities to an end. Every species of ape and monkey has its own protocol for reconciliation after fights, Dr. de Waal has found. If two males fail to make up, female chimpanzees will often bring the rivals together, as if sensing that discord makes their community worse off and more vulnerable to attack by neighbors. Or they will head off a fight by taking stones out of the males? hands.

Dr. de Waal believes that these actions are undertaken for the greater good of the community, as distinct from person-to-person relationships, and are a significant precursor of morality in human societies.

Macaques and chimpanzees have a sense of social order and rules of expected behavior, mostly to do with the hierarchical natures of their societies, in which each member knows its own place. Young rhesus monkeys learn quickly how to behave, and occasionally get a finger or toe bitten off as punishment. Other primates also have a sense of reciprocity and fairness. They remember who did them favors and who did them wrong. Chimps are more likely to share food with those who have groomed them. Capuchin monkeys show their displeasure if given a smaller reward than a partner receives for performing the same task, like a piece of cucumber instead of a grape.

The Beginnings of Morality? These four kinds of behavior ? empathy, the ability to learn and follow social rules, reciprocity and peacemaking ? are the basis of sociality.

Dr. de Waal sees human morality as having grown out of primate sociality, but with two extra levels of sophistication. People enforce their society?s moral codes much more rigorously with rewards, punishments and reputation building. They also apply a degree of judgment and reason, for which there are no parallels in animals.

Religion can be seen as another special ingredient of human societies, though one that emerged thousands of years after morality, in Dr. de Waal?s view. There are clear precursors of morality in nonhuman primates, but no precursors of religion. So it seems reasonable to assume that as humans evolved away from chimps, morality emerged first, followed by religion. ?I look at religions as recent additions,? he said. ?Their function may have to do with social life, and enforcement of rules and giving a narrative to them, which is what religions really do.?

As Dr. de Waal sees it, human morality may be severely limited by having evolved as a way of banding together against adversaries, with moral restraints being observed only toward the in group, not toward outsiders. ?The profound irony is that our noblest achievement ? morality ? has evolutionary ties to our basest behavior ? warfare,? he writes. ?The sense of community required by the former was provided by the latter.?

Dr. de Waal has faced down many critics in evolutionary biology and psychology in developing his views. The evolutionary biologist George Williams dismissed morality as merely an accidental byproduct of evolution, and psychologists objected to attributing any emotional state to animals. Dr. de Waal convinced his colleagues over many years that the ban on inferring emotional states was an unreasonable restriction, given the expected evolutionary continuity between humans and other primates.

His latest audience is moral philosophers, many of whom are interested in his work and that of other biologists. ?In departments of philosophy, an increasing number of people are influenced by what they have to say,? said Gilbert Harman, a Princeton University philosopher.

Dr. Philip Kitcher, a philosopher at Columbia University, likes Dr. de Waal?s empirical approach. ?I have no doubt there are patterns of behavior we share with our primate relatives that are relevant to our ethical decisions,? he said. ?Philosophers have always been beguiled by the dream of a system of ethics which is complete and finished, like mathematics. I don?t think it?s like that at all.?

But human ethics are considerably more complicated than the sympathy Dr. de Waal has described in chimps. ?Sympathy is the raw material out of which a more complicated set of ethics may get fashioned,? he said. ?In the actual world, we are confronted with different people who might be targets of our sympathy. And the business of ethics is deciding who to help and why and when.?

Many philosophers believe that conscious reasoning plays a large part in governing human ethical behavior and are therefore unwilling to let everything proceed from emotions, like sympathy, which may be evident in chimpanzees. The impartial element of morality comes from a capacity to reason, writes Peter Singer, a moral philosopher at Princeton, in ?Primates and Philosophers.? He says, ?Reason is like an escalator ? once we step on it, we cannot get off until we have gone where it takes us.?

That was the view of Immanuel Kant, Dr. Singer noted, who believed morality must be based on reason, whereas the Scottish philosopher David Hume, followed by Dr. de Waal, argued that moral judgments proceed from the emotions.

But biologists like Dr. de Waal believe reason is generally brought to bear only after a moral decision has been reached. They argue that morality evolved at a time when people lived in small foraging societies and often had to make instant life-or-death decisions, with no time for conscious evaluation of moral choices. The reasoning came afterward as a post hoc justification. “Human behavior derives above all from fast, automated, emotional judgments, and only secondarily from slower conscious processes,” Dr. de Waal writes.
 

dirtyvibe

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However much we may celebrate rationality, emotions are our compass, probably because they have been shaped by evolution, in Dr. de Waal’s view. For example, he says: “People object to moral solutions that involve hands-on harm to one another. This may be because hands-on violence has been subject to natural selection whereas utilitarian deliberations have not.”


The Beginnings of Morality? Philosophers have another reason biologists cannot, in their view, reach to the heart of morality, and that is that biological analyses cannot cross the gap between “is” and “ought,” between the description of some behavior and the issue of why it is right or wrong. “You can identify some value we hold, and tell an evolutionary story about why we hold it, but there is always that radically different question of whether we ought to hold it,” said Sharon Street, a moral philosopher at New York University. “That’s not to discount the importance of what biologists are doing, but it does show why centuries of moral philosophy are incredibly relevant, too.”

Biologists are allowed an even smaller piece of the action by Jesse Prinz, a philosopher at the University of North Carolina. He believes morality developed after human evolution was finished and that moral sentiments are shaped by culture, not genetics. “It would be a fallacy to assume a single true morality could be identified by what we do instinctively, rather than by what we ought to do,” he said. “One of the principles that might guide a single true morality might be recognition of equal dignity for all human beings, and that seems to be unprecedented in the animal world.”

Dr. de Waal does not accept the philosophers’ view that biologists cannot step from “is” to “ought.” “I’m not sure how realistic the distinction is,” he said. “Animals do have ‘oughts.’ If a juvenile is in a fight, the mother must get up and defend her. Or in food sharing, animals do put pressure on each other, which is the first kind of ‘ought’ situation.”

Dr. de Waal’s definition of morality is more down to earth than Dr. Prinz’s. Morality, he writes, is “a sense of right and wrong that is born out of groupwide systems of conflict management based on shared values.” The building blocks of morality are not nice or good behaviors but rather mental and social capacities for constructing societies “in which shared values constrain individual behavior through a system of approval and disapproval.” By this definition chimpanzees in his view do possess some of the behavioral capacities built in our moral systems.

“Morality is as firmly grounded in neurobiology as anything else we do or are,” Dr. de Waal wrote in his 1996 book “Good Natured.” Biologists ignored this possibility for many years, believing that because natural selection was cruel and pitiless it could only produce people with the same qualities. But this is a fallacy, in Dr. de Waal’s view. Natural selection favors organisms that survive and reproduce, by whatever means. And it has provided people, he writes in “Primates and Philosophers,” with “a compass for life’s choices that takes the interests of the entire community into account, which is the essence of human morality.”
 

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