Help me bring him around

[Seizing The Day]

make him swallow about 3 or 4 viagras, then watch a Jenna Jameson flick.

If he reacts favorably, youre cooking.

If he's still unsure what to do, drop him off at a local monastery.

 

[Crank_It_Up]

Originally posted by PuertoRican_Lover
...Don't pursue him, let him pursue you!!!! He is the man and not you!! He may see your constant forcefulness as less than feminine!...

I have to agree with this part... as some actress put it "if you want your man to come on strong, you have to come on soft"... can't remember her name...grr.

 

[dietzcoi]

Well, PR_L, I am not sure what you are trying to say, but this guy is seriously screwed up and I am sure his religion played a big, big part in it.

It is really a shame and a waste of a life.

Dietzcoi

 

[James Olmstead]

Originally posted by SheDevil
WHAT ENTERED HIS MIND AT THIS POINT!!! God I want to know this SO BADLY!!! I might as well get up and open the door because I know he is going to bolt. I have tried backing down, but it is too late.

Maybe Im being incredibly naive here since I've never dealt with someone with problems this severe, but why don't you sit him down and discuss this with him just like you have here with us? Tell him exactly how you feel. Tell him what you want and you don't care about anything else but being with him and this problem your having is a serious obstacle for you in your relationship with him. Just be honest with him about it.

I don't understand why people feel the need to keep these huge problems to themselves without ever bringing it out into the open with the person that needs to hear it the most. I've always been a firm believer in honesty and when it needs to be, I put everything right out in the open, maybe Im just blunt, but at least talk to him about it for Christ's sake. If its this big of a deal, force the issue with him. What's the worst that could happen?

 

[dietzcoi]

James

The guys is probably too fukked up to even discuss this.

She needs to move on or ruin her life with him. Only two possibilities, but she does not want to hear it

Dietzcoi

 

[SheDevil]

The three of us finally had our chat. (Him, Me and a bottle of Jameson).

His best description: When things become fanatical, you know past the petting, skin is becoming damp, breath and sight beginning to blur he gets an alarming or frightening feeling in his head and chest. He feels as if he needs to protect me from harm or pain. Pain he is cabable of causing. He careS too much and doesn't want to hurt me. That's it.

He defined the pain he has caused:

1. Seems molestation was a hobby for some in the old home town. He wasn't raped, he was grabbed by several men once. They pinned him face down and started pulling at his clothes. He fought hard, got one arm free and grabbed a wooden thing called a scotch. He started swinging blindly and gouged out one the the guys eyes. HE WAS punished. This was called Shunning. He could have no communication w/ anyone. He did chores and resided to him room. He shared a room so he was relocated to a shed in the backyard. He met with a council of men once a week where he was told how evil he was, how bad he was, how his parents were ashamed, etc... He was 12 f*cking years old. This went on for 1 year. Then all is forgiven.
2. He hung himself in his second year of marriage. He was discovered during his fall by some children sent in to clean. Some men cut him down, unconscious, but not dead. This time he was punished by 'house arrest'. Again weekly he had to meet and was told things like - your father's health is failing becuase he is having to labor harder in your absense, your mother (who was frail) may have to be punished for bearing such evil offspring, his parents hate him, he causing his wife great suffering... After a year of this he secured her position ther and left.
***************

What he is doing during sex is called "self-punishment" - he is convinced he is bad/evil so he deprives himself of pleasure. Why it doesn't effect other areas of enjoyment (i.e. golf, job, simple sexual pleasure, etc...) is because the deprevation of these things don't carry the physical pain as stopping when he's "on the edge".

I don't know what the hell to do for him. He needs professional help. I can suggest some literature, work through some exercises I do w/ molested kids, but I will not cheat him and go where I am not trained.

We are not responsible when acts of violence happen to us - but we are responsible to handle it!!

He has to take this responsiblity or I have to leave. (That hurt just typing it)

The lighter side, with considerable more booze:

 

[SheDevil]

The three of us finally had our chat. (Him, Me and a bottle of Jameson).

His best description: When things become fanatical, you know past the petting, skin is becoming damp, breath and sight beginning to blur he gets an alarming or frightening feeling in his head and chest. He feels as if he needs to protect me from harm or pain. Pain he is cabable of causing. He careS too much and doesn't want to hurt me. That's it.

He defined the pain he has caused:

1. Seems molestation was a hobby for some in the old home town. He wasn't raped, he was grabbed by several men once. They pinned him face down and started pulling at his clothes. He fought hard, got one arm free and grabbed a wooden thing called a scotch. He started swinging blindly and gouged out one the the guys eyes. HE WAS punished. This was called Shunning. He could have no communication w/ anyone. He did chores and resided to him room. He shared a room so he was relocated to a shed in the backyard. He met with a council of men once a week where he was told how evil he was, how bad he was, how his parents were ashamed, etc... He was 12 f*cking years old. This went on for 1 year. Then all is forgiven.
2. He hung himself in his second year of marriage. He was discovered during his fall by some children sent in to clean. Some men cut him down, unconscious, but not dead. This time he was punished by 'house arrest'. Again weekly he had to meet and was told things like - your father's health is failing becuase he is having to labor harder in your absense, your mother (who was frail) may have to be punished for bearing such evil offspring, his parents hate him, he causing his wife great suffering... After a year of this he secured her position ther and left.
***************

What he is doing during sex is called "self-punishment" - he is convinced he is bad/evil so he deprives himself of pleasure. Why it doesn't effect other areas of enjoyment (i.e. golf, job, simple sexual pleasure, etc...) is because the deprevation of these things don't carry the physical pain as stopping when he's "on the edge".

I don't know what the hell to do for him. He needs professional help. I can suggest some literature, work through some exercises I do w/ molested kids, but I will not cheat him and go where I am not trained.

We are not responsible when acts of violence happen to us - but we are responsible to handle it!!

He has to take this responsiblity or I have to leave. (That hurt just typing it)

The lighter side, with considerable more booze:

 

[SheDevil]

The three of us finally had our chat. (Him, Me and a bottle of Jameson).

His best description: When things become fanatical, you know past the petting, skin is becoming damp, breath and sight beginning to blur he gets an alarming or frightening feeling in his head and chest. He feels as if he needs to protect me from harm or pain. Pain he is cabable of causing. He cares too much and doesn't want to hurt me. That's it.

He defined the pain he has caused:

1. Seems molestation was a hobby for some in the old home town. He wasn't raped, he was grabbed by several men once. They pinned him face down and started pulling at his clothes. He fought hard, got one arm free and grabbed a wooden thing called a scotch. He started swinging blindly and gouged out one the the guys eyes. HE WAS punished, not them. This was called Shunning. He could have no communication w/ anyone. He did chores and resided to him room. He shared a room so he was relocated to a shed in the backyard. He met with a council of men once a week where he was told how evil he was, how bad he was, how his parents were ashamed, etc... He was 12 f*cking years old. This went on for 1 year. Then all is forgiven.
2. He hung himself in his second year of marriage. He was discovered during his fall by some children sent in to clean. Some men cut him down, unconscious, but not dead. This time he was punished by 'house arrest'. Again weekly he had to meet and was told things like - your father's health is failing because he is having to labor harder in your absense, your mother (who was frail) may have to be punished for bearing such evil offspring, his parents hate him and his sin, he causing his wife great suffering... After a year of this he secured her position there and left.
***************

What he is doing during sex is called "self-punishment" - he is convinced he is bad/evil so he deprives himself of pleasure. Why it doesn't effect other areas of enjoyment (i.e. golf, job, simple sexual pleasure, etc...) is because the deprevation of these things don't carry the physical pain as stopping when he's "on the edge".

I don't know what the hell to do for him. He needs professional help. I can suggest some literature, work through some exercises I do w/ molested kids, but I will not cheat him and go where I am not trained.

We are not responsible when acts of violence happen to us - but we are responsible to handle it!!

He has to take this responsiblity or I have to leave. (That hurt just typing it)

The lighter side, with considerable more booze:

He has a fear of failure to perform. They didn't do much lap dancing back in the day.

He isn't circumsised, thought this may be weird for me.

Lastly, I scare him spineless. I am not the quite, downcast eye woman he is used to. He loves me, but my colorful ways take him off guard.

So the new rules will soon be:

1.) He wants/seeks help.
2.) I will hold back until he is ready to unleash.

He doesn't do #1 - I have to leave.

Thank you, all my dear manly men, for letting me play on your playground. A women will stop at no means to help their man. Now, resume play, follow the rules and be nice.

Love and hugs, SheDevil

 

[Lost In Translation]

A woman who wants to help a down-trodden man get his rocks off to become a better man is always welcome on this forum.

I wish you all the best

yours sincerely,

Lost In Translation

***AUSTRALIAN STREET PIMP***

 

[icehot]

Ok. I hate to break this to you sweetheart, but maybe he's just not attracted to you physically.

Ever thought of that?


iceH

 

[SheDevil]

Ok, I have thought of that SUGAR, asked him many times, he boldly states it has nothing to do with me.

You have to have trust, ever thought of that, BABE!

Ms. SheDevil

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Sorry, but I had to jump in on this one.

DEVIL: You'll have to trust me when I tell you I'm a 6th year behavioral psych student and I can see what's going on here. Your guy is confronting, for the first time in his life, a resetting of a deeply conditioned response. When you get him buzzed it loosens his inhibitions with you verbally, but even intoxicated he reverts to his conditioned response to your (at least to him) conditioned stimulus (i.e. sexual contact). This conditioning has been cemented in him for the past 17 years. I think it's fairly obvious from your posts how he paired this conditioning with physical arousal (unconditioned stimuli) regarding his marriage history.

The behavior (as far as you've described) is that he removes himself from the stimulus when he is aroused. Stop labeling his mental conditions as 'self-punishment' or as understood as 'bad' or 'evil', you cannot know what he thinks, only what he does. Sexual deprivation has become standardized for him so this deprivation is no longer an establishing operation to him. You cannot approach it this way.

You know the antecedent stimulus that caused the conditioned response, now how do you pair it with a new response? How do you reinforce this pairing? Sex is a fundimental unconditioned stimulus (a survival value stimulus) it takes a lot of conditioning to extinguish sexual behavior. I don't know the guy or his habits - you do. You'll have to answer these questions. It's not a hopeless situation, but it is a bad one to say the least. I think you might reconsider your own motivations in involving yourself in this, but as others have attempted to dissuade you, I think you should at least take a realistic stock of what you're committing yourself to and why you're willing to do so.

 

[SheDevil]

Rollo, your thoughts are brilliant and appreciated!! I want to make one thing very clear, I CANNOT HELP HIM. The psyshe is extremely fragile and must be treated as such. This weekend I did give him resources, however, he chose to read some Maltz literature. She is a sex therapist specializing in sexually abused adults. I find it interesting that he told me he was NOT abused, just "grabbed" but he chose her work to study. Last week I spoke to several therapist I know and ran what facts I have by them. I did not label him; they came up with the "self-punishment" theory, not me. They put more wieght on his "shunning" experiences rather than his marriages, so did he. When we spoke he rarely mentioned his marriages.

1. At 12, he was placed in sort of solitary confinement. The only contact he had were MEN telling him weekly of his "evil"ness and that he was "bad". (Note: 12 is a big year for sexual development.)
2. At 22ish, he was in a house arrest confinement again weekly he was told he was "harming" his parents health. A form of mental torture.

It was drawn out for me this way:

Evil + Bad + Harm = Him

3. I won't speak for him but HE said, "I feel like I need to protect you from me. I care too much and don't want to hurt you."

I did ask him if he had these feeling with his wives and he said no. His thoughts: Maybe because he didn't care for them very much or they didn't care for him.

Again, four months ago, when I felt his sexual issues ran pretty deep I stopped making moves, he always makes the first move, I participate but he sets the pace. I do let him lead, it about kills me but I keep my actions pretty harnessed.

I don't jump him. I want to, but I don't.

He not down-trodded. He is not depressed.

I fell in love with him the night he dedicated a song to me at a Kareoke bar, he had our friends distract me so he could get w/ the DJ and set me up good. When he got up to sing, he spoke about the dedication to the "love of his life" they started playing the intro to "You Light Up My Life", I could not believe he would sing such a sappy song. Then they cut over to "All My Rowdy Friends" now THAT"S MY MAN. The whole place loved him, but me more. We had been going out for three months.

I have not had much time to rethink my stand now that the picture is clearer. We were together all weekend, we talked about thinks in more detail. I havn't mentioned actual therapy to him yet. I am trying to find therapists to suggest that I don't know.

I don't want to leave him.

I want him to WANT to get help.

We have spoke more this weekend, and he has asked more questions then in the last 10 months. I have to give him credit. I have to see his actions as hope. He chose reading over football. This was a HUGE step. Thanks!!

 

[Player_Supreme]

1. men grabbed him and attempted to sexually abuse him. Whether this actually did occur he probably doesn't even remember. But the key thing is that men grabbed him for sex. The key word is MEN.

2. Men put him on punishment cause he didn't deliver the goods and acted in a way they ( the men) found evil.

3. He spent a year being shunned and his only contact (pleasure) came from men telling him what to do.

4. I don't need to hear anymore. Your right you can't save him. Only he can save himself. He needs to look within and start healing.

And you still want to stick this out just because of a Karoke song? That is very noble of you. No wonder you chose your line of work...fighting the good fight!.

What happened in YOUR life that makes you need this kind of nobility and noble gestures...why do you need to feel good about yourself?

You know this guy is fawked up beyond simple repair. Instead of backing away and telling him to lets just be friends you put up with NO SEX? For a woman who is highly sexual and can *** just cause her underwear are riding a bit tight...this is self punishment also.


What you need to do is get a plane ticket to Sacramento California. Hit up my email address at Zenmack@Yahoo.com. I will even pick you up and we will take you to levels you never thought were sexually possible. I will taste your soul and then put a dazed version of you back on a plane to your home town.

You will find the healing that you need.

By the way nobody is going to think badly of you if you back out...even he won't. He knows he fawked up and not giving you what a real man should give to his woman.

If he did then he is a self serving prick to try to drag you into it. Infact I'm pissed of at him for letting it get this far with you. He shoulda not even opened the door in the first place until he had healed himself.

Stop using you for his whipping belt to beat himself up with is what he needs to do.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Can I add this? As tactfully as I can put it, you will not change this man's behavior through psychoanalysis. Stop suggesting psychoanalytic therapies. You may make him more aware of his generalizing sexual arousal with his conditioning, but you wont alter the previous molding of this behavior. In other words, he's probably completely cognizant that he has difficulty in sexual situations and he also understands why he has this difficulty. What he's unable to do is change this behavior, and no amount of telling him to change it or attempting make him more aware of it will do this.

From your description, he's obviously paired sexual arousal with the emotional response of guilt and/or shame of previously conditioned responses. To remove these feelings he removes himself from the arousal situation.

What do you think his response would be if you were more sexually agressive with him? This could possibly set him in a different conditioned response. In his antecedent stimulus situation he was the initiator with his previous wives. Their response was in effect a form of punishment to him and he paired this with feelings of regret, guilt (possibly shame), and general uncomfortableness. No adult male with a normal amount of testosterone in his bloodstream can easily repress sexual desire - this is a herculean feat to condition this for the length of time you've described for him so the conditioning had to be extreme. The one angle I can see that you might explore is to be more assertive sexually since his pairing seems to have been contigent on his initiation of sexual activity resulting in arousal. I wonder if you were the initiator, if this might give you a foothold (so to speak) of trust, not to mention be satisfying for yourself.

Also, I should add that I'm concerned that his sexual unavailability to you may be a source of your own attraction. We only chase what runs from us. Beware that once this guy does come around that you don't find it's not all that you built it up to be. This same unavailability could be his agency to keep you around as well. It could very well be that he's not physically attracted to you, but enjoys your affirmation of him and his 'problem', and your reinforcing of it with positive attention.

 

[SheDevil]

Hello, sir, you should work for Hallmark, you have gotten me all stirred up, rattled and wet in one breif text. Behave yourself.

I grew up the underdog of sorts, I was always smaller, had a mass of dark curls and knew how to curse in Italian, still do. I never really got picked on but I saw it happen, I could not stand by and see bullies hurt people. It's always been in my blood to help people. It didn't matter who they were, I wanted to be there if they could not speak for themselves. As I do now w/ children. What can I say, I am part Italian and part French. That makes me a tempermental, passionate, horny woman, to the core.

$.50 lesson for the day. Nature and Nurture, two things that weigh heavy on our developement to adulthood. The nature in which we were brought up and the nurturing we received. Know this about your lover and you will see what makes them tick.

My lover grew up in a sheltered nature. Grow, make or build all you have or do w/ out. It's not his nature to seek help from others. Maybe he is playing me, but not the way you suggested, but for help he doesn't know how to find.

He was nutured well, he had loving parents, they raised him to be independant. It's unfortunate that they did not contradict all he was told during this time of shunning.

It was things outside his nature and nurture that has screwed him up. That gives me hope. Now don't say "dumb bytch" - hear me out!!! I am still thinking about the flight and frolic you have promised me.

You said that no one would think badly of me if I knocked things back to be friends. I WOULD, what I think of myself is the most important to me. I treat myself well, I run, I eat right, I buy the lady fru-fru stuff for my skin and hair. I do feel good about myself. I don't think you can be good to others if you are not first good to yourself.

Henry Ford once fired an associate because his shoes where well shined but the soles had holes in them. He saw a front in this.

My sole must be complete and I have to be right with me. I'll tell me when and if I must leave. I do back down from things I can't save. It just takes me a longer time to get there.

You would want me behind you, (not just a top ). You would want me on your team.

I am working on this, planning new steps, I fill you in when I have my game pieces positioned.

I am so thankful - you are all my little Yoda's.

xoxo, Devil

 

[SheDevil]

Rollo, With all the resources I offered him he selected the study involving psychoanalytic studies. Something drew him to Maltz's studies. I did not. Right now we are taking very soft baby steps toward him developing the idea of him seeking help. I want him to be the one to decide. If he brings me back my literature in a box with a big "Thanks but no thanks" it will be his choice.

As a six year student you are telling me "he is unable to change his behavior". Maybe I am taking it incorrect but you stated there is no amount of help or direction that can help him change areas of his life HE WANTS TO CHANGE. Please do not go into practice until you stop herding people, lumping them together and branding them as hopeless.

Case in point: A black male child, sold and hored for four years (8-12) by his mother for crack money has a chance. I saw that happen. I didn't say "no amount of telling him to change or attempting to make him more aware will do this." Yes it will, I see red when people generalize the way you are. This child now is an instructor in 911 training. He handles his past, he doesn't bury it, he has every right any other adult does to have a chance to make it. His experiences was "extreme conditioning" and he overcame. Not by accepting who he was, not by hiding what he was handed, but by dealing with it and placing it proplerly in his life.

I'll say you know your stuff, you have knowledge, now get wisdom. Before you meet you final goal, GET WISDOM. Knowledge doesn't mean sh*t until it can be applied w/ a sheperding heart not a herder. Find the compassion to break up your herd and classifications and see the uniquness of people, INDIVIUALLY. Would you tell this, now young man, to his face you can't change, back to the slums with you. Your conditionaning was to extreme. God I hope not.

EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE. LABEL NO ONE.

I don't want to be a tool for him to hurt himself any longer. I don't want him to go to that primal edge anymore because it's a step toward destruction. I will protect myself and needs, somehow. I am still positioning my players.

I want him to meet his desire first. He has said, and I have to take his word, he wants have a successful sexual life. Maybe he wants less then me, maybe I do scare him spineless, we will decide that in time. I have to take what he says at this time as truth. He says he wants/love me. He says he wants/needs a sexual relationship with me. His actions will speak louder than words, we are moving forward, it may end up that we move apart, but for God sake I appreciate the fact that we are moving.

Please, if you do nothing else with your education as great as it is, never see anyone as hopeless. I hope you very first case gets so far under your skin that you learn this from start. People are extremely fragile. Warm your ways Rollo, don't put the books between you are peoples lives. You must SEE them. They are not textbooks, there living breathing people.

Now, I feel I want my guy more than I want my own next breathe. Your words did that. Don't do this to people that are not strong.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

DEVIL: You took my meaning wrong. What I meant was the psychoanalytic approach would probably not be much help to a problem that is behavioral in nature. I didn't mean to imply the situation was hopeless, far from it, just that while psychoanalysis may be helpful in understanding the nature of his problem, he's already aware of what his difficulty is. A process needs to started to change his conditioning and if he's motivated to change it, all the better.

My concern is still determining if what he's exhibiting is a genuine respondent behavior or an operative behavior with no anxiety component. I'd tend to lean toward a respondent behavior considering his history, but this is why I suggested that you approach him more agressively when you get intimate.

And yes, I do intern work and no, I don't believe anyone is hopeless. Your man's problems pale in comparisson to what I've encountered just this last week.

 

[Player_Supreme]

Hello, sir, you should work for Hallmark, you have gotten me all stirred up, rattled and wet in one breif text. Behave yourself.

Getting you stirred up and wet is what I do best. I can sense things in your words...you know how to belong to a man completely and totally...that is what attracted me to your post...you know how to give yourself and that giving makes you whole and completely 100% woman.

To bad your denying yourself this deep nature of yours. Even though you obviously have power in your job...you still know the old ways of woman and man.

You and I could talk a language that few on this site would even understand....too bad you don't live closer and I would show you what I ment....deeply so...you feel me.

I am so thankful - you are all my little Yoda's.

There is nothing little about me Shedevil. Trust me. As for being on your shelf...no babygirl. My women call me daddy or big daddy.

Which is what you need, instead of trying to be the heroine and savior. You need to allow a man to be a man and take care of you...and be your healer and savior...to take the load off your shoulders for only a moment...cause that is what men do.

Interesting combo of genes also. I can almost see you in my head.

 

[SheDevil]

Rollo - I'll begin by apologizing, I read your text over several times and saw many references to what would not work and things that would not help. I reacted, as I easily do. Thanks for the clarity and I do appreciate you candor and thoughts. Thanks for the input on respondent behavior, I am just not sure yet, on retrying intimate contact.

I won't be a tool for him to hurt himself further.

Selfishly, it is getting too hard for me to get taken to these points and dropped on my tush. I am freying a little around the edges to keep this up right now and now that I have caution toward his well being I really don't know what to do.

Intimacy comes very natural for me, I don't plan or stage these moments, I become fluid and elevate past much thought at all. It's a feel good thing, yes, but also a mental thing. If I think about my actions and try to plan moves, etc... I'll fumble big time. I don't want to fumble w/ him even if it is toward ecstasy.

To me it is sort of like breathing - if you over think it, you can't do it. I need to simmer down my frustrations first and regain a little control.

Thanks again, Devil