Hatred for AFCs

[zekko]

There's an expression "Don't Hate the Player, Hate the Game".

But I've never understood why the men on this forum hate the AFC so much. Especially considering that most of the members came here as AFCs. You hate your past self that much? I'm ashamed of some of my past actions with women, but they were a necessary step I had to take to learn.

I know many here blame the AFC for the inflated value of women (they suck up to them). I've never really bought into that, I think the PUAs are just as much to blame for constantly seeking sex from them, but that's getting off my point.

My impression of being AFC is that it is simply an immature state, like being an adolescent. I don't see how men can remain AFC after repeated interactions/relationships with women. Being that close with women should teach you clearly that the AFC approach is the wrong one to take - it simply doesn't work. Maybe most AFCs just don't have that much experience with women - I could understand that. I don't understand men who remain AFC after repeated failed relationships.

It's like when you first start playing golf or whatever. You learn what works, what doesn't. What a good risk is to take, what isn't. You have to learn through experience. If being AFC is an immature state, hating the AFC is like hating the beginner golfer. Maybe they're a nuisance on the course, but we were all beginners once, and should be given some consideration.

 

[st_99]

My impression of being AFC is that it is simply an immature state, like being an adolescent..

I would agree with that. When i think back to my AFC reactions to females, they were basically no different than acting like a child who simply needs to grow.

 

[Mike32ct]

I also agree that AFCs aren't that big a cause of womens' inflated value.

Most AFCs don't even approach. They get into relationships by "accident" via a social circle.

It's the guys doing lots of approaches that give women so much power. I can't knock these guys because I've been one of them, but it's true.

In the online world, it's also caused by guys trying to mass contact females.

But for many guys, myself included, a numbers game is all there is.

But anyway, I have no hate towards AFCs. They are harmless from my perspective and I try to help them when I can.

 

[The Duke]

I can't stand puss bag chumps......they constantly allow women to get away with schitty behavior. They are so afraid to put them in their place or heaven forbid lose them so they bow down to them and let them get away with things they shouldn't. The majority of the male population is AFC. That has led to the epidemic we have these days.

Sure every guy is entitled to his "immature AFC" stage of life, however the majority of the men have no clue and don't try to learn either so it just keeps getting worse.

 

[Burroughs]

Annoyance at AFCs is as follows:

AFCs represent the spare tire in a woman's life..or as Chris Rock put it a 'd!ck in glass' she can break in case of emergency lol

AFCs are what allow women to PLAY GAME TO THE HILT BRUTALLY AND SHREWDLY knowing that she has a strong fallback position who will meekly pay for the rest of her life, wear khakis, drive an SUV and be thrilled about it.

WOMEN SHOULD NOT HAVE THIS FALLBACK POSITION IN THE FORM OF AFCS CONDONING HER HYPOCRISY....

an AFCs problem in relation to alpha is not that he sucks up to women, its hid presence as a financial and emotional tampon fallback....a soft landing spot for women after they have raged through the cawk carousel....were afcs not around....well THEN WOMEN WOULD BE FORCED TO DO MORE TO KEEP ALPHAS IN HER LIFE....more than good BJS and anal....they might have to cook

 

[Findog]

There's an expression "Don't Hate the Player, Hate the Game".

But I've never understood why the men on this forum hate the AFC so much. Especially considering that most of the members came here as AFCs. You hate your past self that much? I'm ashamed of some of my past actions with women, but they were a necessary step I had to take to learn.

I know many here blame the AFC for the inflated value of women (they suck up to them). I've never really bought into that, I think the PUAs are just as much to blame for constantly seeking sex from them, but that's getting off my point.

My impression of being AFC is that it is simply an immature state, like being an adolescent. I don't see how men can remain AFC after repeated interactions/relationships with women. Being that close with women should teach you clearly that the AFC approach is the wrong one to take - it simply doesn't work. Maybe most AFCs just don't have that much experience with women - I could understand that. I don't understand men who remain AFC after repeated failed relationships.

It's like when you first start playing golf or whatever. You learn what works, what doesn't. What a good risk is to take, what isn't. You have to learn through experience. If being AFC is an immature state, hating the AFC is like hating the beginner golfer. Maybe they're a nuisance on the course, but we were all beginners once, and should be given some consideration.

I've never understood it either. My guess is internal insecurity on the part of the self-styled "PUA" that takes the form of projection, because a lot of guys here are either former AFCs, recovering AFCs, or still have some AFC habits or tendencies. I don't see how AFCs make things harder for the "players" and the "winners" from getting women in the dating market. The investment bankers, doctors, lawyers, successful actors, male models, they get their pick of the litter regardless of what else is out there for women to choose from in the dating market. And the stark relief between a guy who has some combination of money, looks, charm and social status and the guy who doesn't makes the former look all the more attractive in comparison.

I think the inflated egos and entitlement mentality women have today come mainly from:

A) Popular culture that tells them they can have it all, that they can delay marriage and kids and not worry about The Wall while they work on establishing their careers, and they don't need a man for survival. So they shift their criteria for what they want in men. Popular culture tells them that they deserve the Tom Bradys, Brad Pitts and George Clooneys and anything less is settling. So you have 5's that think they're 8's and that they deserve nothing less than a 10. And strangely enough, you would think that a woman approaching The Wall would start to get more realistic about her options and what sort of qualities she should prioritize in finding a man, but in practice from what I've seen, it's the opposite. The smart women understand the value and importance of finding a good man in their prime fertility and sexual market value years, because the only thing an older woman has to offer over a younger woman with a tighter and hotter body is her loyalty, maturity and devotion to her man. The ones that ride the **** carousel in their twenties and then find themselves approaching The Wall seem to have even more hangups and are even pickier about who is worthy of them. They think that because they stuck it out this long they should get their payoff instead of realizing that the 6'5 investment banker making $500,000 a year is probably not walking through that door and prefers the 25 year old. Invariably the 25-30 year olds I date are more fun to be around, seem less beaten down by life, are more positive and optimistic, whereas the 30+ women I'm rapidly losing patience with, because they invariably have either Princess Complexes or some other kind of hangups related to their lives not quite turning out quite the way they wanted. We men want women in our lives, but women HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE being single. They are by far the needier sex when it comes to emotional and physical companionship. The ones that are well into their thirties, single and never married are usually that way for a reason.

B) There's a strain of feminism that tells women it's okay to be convenient feminists, i.e. they can be feminists when it's to their advantage and when it's not they can fall back on the traditional patriarchal model. Men are still expected to fulfill their obligations under the old patriarchal contact but for women it's optional. They can do it if it works for them and disregard it if it doesn't.

C) Some double standards in life work to the advantage of men, some double standards in life work to the advantage of women. Some (a lot in fact) work to the advantage of white males, while some (a lot fewer) work to the advantage of minorities. We all know the one about how men can sleep around and be players while women who do the same are considered sluts. And whereas while a tiny minority of women will be actively turned off by the stud/player, most will not penalize him for it and will actively consider him a prize. Double standards that don't work in favor of men are the fact that an unemployed man that lives with his parents, women will not consider him for dating/relationships, whereas an unemployed woman who lives with her parents will not have that held against her by men as long as she's hot. Women wanted equality when it comes to feminism, and by all means I support equal pay for equal work and for people to be able to pursue their passions and dreams regardless of what equipment they're lugging between their legs, but it seems like the way it's worked out is that women are getting all of the perks, rights and advantages of equality without the same responsibilities and accountability.

I'm also willing to bet that back in the day there were far fewer AFCs around, or at least far fewer unhappy AFCs around, because finding a mate wasn't that hard. Under the old system women needed men more for financial security and therefore unless you were a criminal or some kind of lazy deadbeat, it wasn't hard to convince some woman to be with you and marry you. No society or civilization has ever been wholly virtuous, so this shouldn't read as an ode to the good ol' days when they consisted of slavery, Jim Crow or whatnot, but in some ways it seems like relations between the sexes were more harmonious back then. Men were men and women were women. I have no problem with women being in the workplace in equal numbers to men, but that changes the model for traditional male-female relations and expectations and behaviors need to be adjusted on both sides. AFCs today are guys that I think are not equipped to navigate this new sexual landscape. Back in the day you could be a beta AFC and still get a woman to marry you or enter into a LTR with you. These days the sexual market place is just much more unforgiving. Don't wish that it were easier, just wish that you were better, or whatever the saying is.

As men we have it pretty tough in some ways and we should be each other's allies.

 

[Findog]

Annoyance at AFCs is as follows:

AFCs represent the spare tire in a woman's life..or as Chris Rock put it a 'd!ck in glass' she can break in case of emergency lol

AFCs are what allow women to PLAY GAME TO THE HILT BRUTALLY AND SHREWDLY knowing that she has a strong fallback position who will meekly pay for the rest of her life, wear khakis, drive an SUV and be thrilled about it.

WOMEN SHOULD NOT HAVE THIS FALLBACK POSITION IN THE FORM OF AFCS CONDONING HER HYPOCRISY....

an AFCs problem in relation to alpha is not that he sucks up to women, its hid presence as a financial and emotional tampon fallback....a soft landing spot for women after they have raged through the cawk carousel....were afcs not around....well THEN WOMEN WOULD BE FORCED TO DO MORE TO KEEP ALPHAS IN HER LIFE....more than good BJS and anal....they might have to cook

But if you're an Alpha, or the top 10-20 percent of guys that 80 percent of women fall all over themselves chasing and clamoring to be with, then you get all of the good stuff that women have to offer and none of the crap that they dole out to AFCs. What does it matter to you if she's banging you and waiting on you hand and foot, and then when you tire of her and send her on her way, she's using other beta orbiters as emotional tampons? I'm not defending AFCs, they make things hard on themselves already without other people crapping on them. Alphas never have to deal with or put up with the sh*tty behavior of modern females, either because they do not tolerate it when it appears since they always have options, or the women are so happy to be with them that they behave themselves to begin with.

I would think that more men ridding themselves of AFC tendencies would "level out the playing field" so to speak, and raise their sexual market value in relation to the guys that sit at the top of the food chain. It might not necessarily be a good thing for the top 10-20 percent of males benefiting from the current status quo.

And just because you're an Alpha (which is by definition I think a guy who is only as loyal as his options and most women I think intuitively on some level understand is not a good long-term bet for monogamy and fidelity, Jesse James comes to mind, he's Alpha as all get-out) doesn't make you necessarily high status. Paul Newman was a high-status male with money, looks, charm and social status, but by all accounts he was completely faithful to Joanne Woodward and never cheated on her. He settled down and never bothered to play the field like a man in his position could. Whereas a guy like Derek Jeter is a high-status alpha because he's never gotten married and whenever he gets tired of whatever actress or model he's boning, he cuts them loose for another one.

 

[Boilermaker]

The problem is, Mr. Zekko,

is you can easily confront/scold an adult for behaving like an adolescent, if he starts playing hide-and-seek in his workplace.

but when you talk about a man's more shocking behavior when it comes to his "private life" , you risk being an a-hole yourself.


What a lot of people hate is not the AFC itself, rather, it is our inability to point out the obvious to the masses of AFCs because of the tightly knit modern dogmas, playing to the hand of the feminists, especially during our times.

 

[origin138]

Boilermaker is spot on.

My distaste for AFCs lies solely in the fact that they are huge enablers. Many AFCs will persist in the delusion that being a white knight/nice guy/doormat will get them laid even when faced with mounting evidence to the contrary. They let women run things just to keep the peace, let women behave badly, let them manipulate, and will defend a woman at all costs even when she's in the wrong, etc. They buy into the feminist agenda which is the biggest heresy in my book. Their passive acceptance of the pervasive feminist bullsh!t is really where my distaste for AFCs lies.

 

[Findog]

Boilermaker is spot on.

My distaste for AFCs lies solely in the fact that they are huge enablers. Many AFCs will persist in the delusion that being a white knight/nice guy/doormat will get them laid even when faced with mounting evidence to the contrary. They let women run things just to keep the peace, let women behave badly, let them manipulate, and will defend a woman at all costs even when she's in the wrong, etc. They buy into the feminist agenda which is the biggest heresy in my book. Their passive acceptance of the pervasive feminist bullsh!t is really where my distaste for AFCs lies.

But I think the question Zekko is asking is who are AFCs making life difficult for besides themselves? Alphas almost by definition do not have problems with getting what they want from women, so who are AFCs hurting besides themselves? AFCs operate out of a scarcity mindset, so they think that they must "go along to get along" in order to have success with women. How is that selling out their Alpha brothers? Alphas get to succeed where AFCs fail.

 

[Who Dares Win]

Nobody really hates genuine AFCs but its almost impossible to dont blame raging AFCs for what they do, here is the difference:

1)genuine AFC, he is a guy who simply got sucked up in the mainstream society, absent or weak father figure and a controlling oppressive mother/teachers/aunties whatever.
He simply despite the sufference see no alternative and despite his gut giving him vibes, cant really see what it the problem.

2)raging AFC is the typical male cvnt who reproach you after you treat a woman the way she should be treated, those are the fvckers sitting in the european parliament on the leftist parties making double standards favouring women their life battle.
They simply fail to measure themselves with other men so instead of competing for being better men, they simply try to put down other men and tru to manipulate women into liking them, common for them to rely on "morality" to qualify themselves and "shame" as a main tools, they are no different that the black men who willingly put chains on other black men to get approval from their masters during the slavery time.

The first one is a faultless victim, the second one is a willing one...the first one congrats you when u nail a chick while the second one try to shame you.

An other example, the genuine afc is the guy who is victim of the "why dont u buy me a drink scum" from women at the club while the raging afc is that butthurt guy ready to attack you because you dared to put your step down in front a woman who provoked you.

Women feel pity for both but are more than happy to feed some attention to the raging one even more than the genuine one to suck their life.

 

[Burroughs]

2)raging AFC is the typical male cvnt who reproach you after you treat a woman the way she should be treated, those are the fvckers sitting in the european parliament on the leftist parties making double standards favouring women their life battle.
They simply fail to measure themselves with other men so instead of competing for being better men, they simply try to put down other men and tru to manipulate women into liking them, common for them to rely on "morality" to qualify themselves and "shame" as a main tools, they are no different that the black men who willingly put chains on other black men to get approval from their masters during the slavery time.

excellent point.

there are lots of these benedict arnold faggots in the higher echelons of media and academia...they love to cut men off at the knees using feminine tactics like shaming and passive aggression.

 

[Findog]

Nobody really hates genuine AFCs but its almost impossible to dont blame raging AFCs for what they do, here is the difference:

1)genuine AFC, he is a guy who simply got sucked up in the mainstream society, absent or weak father figure and a controlling oppressive mother/teachers/aunties whatever.
He simply despite the sufference see no alternative and despite his gut giving him vibes, cant really see what it the problem.

2)raging AFC is the typical male cvnt who reproach you after you treat a woman the way she should be treated, those are the fvckers sitting in the european parliament on the leftist parties making double standards favouring women their life battle.
They simply fail to measure themselves with other men so instead of competing for being better men, they simply try to put down other men and tru to manipulate women into liking them, common for them to rely on "morality" to qualify themselves and "shame" as a main tools, they are no different that the black men who willingly put chains on other black men to get approval from their masters during the slavery time.

The first one is a faultless victim, the second one is a willing one...the first one congrats you when u nail a chick while the second one try to shame you.

An other example, the genuine afc is the guy who is victim of the "why dont u buy me a drink scum" from women at the club while the raging afc is that butthurt guy ready to attack you because you dared to put your step down in front a woman who provoked you.

Women feel pity for both but are more than happy to feed some attention to the raging one even more than the genuine one to suck their life.

Okay, that makes more sense. The first one should be nothing more than an object of sympathy and pity. The second one, the type that sucks up to people like Amanda Marcotte, I can't stand those guys.

 

[origin138]

But I think the question Zekko is asking is who are AFCs making life difficult for besides themselves? Alphas almost by definition do not have problems with getting what they want from women, so who are AFCs hurting besides themselves? AFCs operate out of a scarcity mindset, so they think that they must "go along to get along" in order to have success with women. How is that selling out their Alpha brothers? Alphas get to succeed where AFCs fail.

Good questions. I don't think they're selling out their alpha brothers at all in any way that is obvious, but there are other alphas out there who aren't "natural alphas" and have to actively work at "learning to be alpha" through discipline, suppression of AFC tendencies, and undoing lots of bad habits they acquired while growing up in an overly feminized environment.

AFC attitudes/white knighting can create unnecessary tension in areas other than dating/fvcking. In the workplace for example, I continually get slammed by a few important people in the company because there is a cluster B girl there who has it in for me. I don't kiss her ass, I walk away when she starts her bull****, and I generally draw firm boundaries around her.

In response, she'll throw temper tantrums to the higher ups who are major AFCs because she knows they'll defend her, even if the allegations are completely made up. I would venture to say that at least twice a week, I'm being called out on something because she had a hissy fit and they're just trying be the heroes. The reality is, all I've ever done is simply deprive this wh0re of the attention she feels she deserves and draw boundaries against her bloated sense of entitlement. If my position were not one of key importance in the company, I'd probably be gone.

My point is, AFCs in this case listen to this cluster B moron with no marketable skills other than her hot looks and take what she says as complete fact....because she's a physically attractive, not because her stories actually point toward any truth.

So in the dating game, AFCs can make us look great and give us plenty of room to be who we are and pull tail left and right. The alpha simply stands out in this case as the better option to women. In other areas, AFCs can really wreak havoc by being tools for dangerous women to use against us. An AFC in a position of power can be a rough situation for an alpha.

 

[Findog]

So in the dating game, AFCs can make us look great and give us plenty of room to be who we are and pull tail left and right. The alpha simply stands out in this case as the clear best option for women. In other areas, AFCs can really wreak havoc by being tools for dangerous women to use against us.

Okay, that's fair. At least where dating is concerned, I would think the studs and players would be delighted at AFC "competition."

 

[origin138]

Okay, that's fair. At least where dating is concerned, I would think the studs and players would be delighted at AFC "competition."

Absolutely. I enjoy having them around. The more of them there are, the more we stand out.

 

[Danton1975]

Personally...I am OK with the fact there are many AFCs there because it makes the rest stand out more.

Of course, at times, it is hard to tolerate the AFC through all the snivelling, groveling, supplication they do. If we didn't get repelled by such features it would mean we would be AFCs ourselves.

My take on the AFC is not Hatred but Pity. You hear them hit "ALL the WRONG Notes" with the women and you close your eyes and go: "Man, you couldn't have possibly F*cked that up more." and yet, they DO and MANAGE to F*ck it up even more.

An AFC is simply a less evolved form of a man in courtship of a woman...hence the comparison to them of children is very valid. Just like kids they stumble all over, but you don't hate them...instead you tell yourself: "They are immature...what would you expect from them.?"

An AFC may be a great physician, a soldier, a salesperson, an IT guy, and a customer service rep...but when it comes to women their knowledge is very limited. They simply do not know women and for this they pay the penalty of solitude.

I have a brother in law who's possibly the most AFC person alive. He bakes pies for the women at work, talks to them about their problems and they love him...love him...but would never see him in a million years as dating material. They simply see him as another woman in their circle. I feel sorry for him because he is 20 and has yet to even kiss a girl...but his knowledge of women is so unbelievably low It would be an incredible investment of time to teach him. And in the end...I would have still make no progress.

It is very hard to change people. I want to help him but for him to become an alpha male would simply be nothing short of a revolution.

 

[Jitterbug]

There's only one type of AFCs I have what could be called hatred for: the type who would throw you under the bus just for a whiff of pvssy.

who are AFCs making life difficult for besides themselves?

Their white knighting affects other men directly and indirectly.

The unjust female-biased laws get passed.

Workplace policies that punish men for any masculine behaviour.

AFC bosses that promote / give jobs to females over more competent males.

AFC bosses fire males instead of females when budget cuts are imposed.

Scholarships, grants going to females over males.

Lots of male on male violence are started because of a woman.

You can blame AFCs for enabling all of those.

Sheesh, do you guys even have any awareness of what's going on in your society other than how to game a woman?

 

[Desdinova]

Jitterbug really hit the spot.

There are some AFCs who seem to have this idea that THEY are the ones the girl should be with. The problem is they know nothing about attraction, so they start interfering with the relationship to try and 'win her over' with gifts, meals, phone calls, and trying to c0ckblock you. They just become a constant irritation. These are the men that cause a lose-lose situation in your relationship. You can't tell her to get rid of the wanker because it shows you're insecure and controlling. You can't put up with him because he annoys the 5hit out of you.

The only other direct problem I have with AFCs is when they're my guy friends, and they b1tch about not being able to get a woman. When you try to show them stuff, they cast doubt upon themselves and say "I can't do that".

But yes, there are a lot of things that AFCs have done (or not done) to make this world a much more difficult place for the confident man.

 

[Jitterbug]

Those same AFC guy friends will get preachy real fast if they ever get a chick to stick around. One of mine landed some ugly chick (who hit on me before she went for him btw) and now is getting all smug and criticizing every girl he sees me with.

The other problem you may have is that once they're under the pvssy spell, they are no longer your friends. You will get dropped like a hot potato if some chick winks at them. I had one who drove me and the boys out for drinks after I broke up with my ex, to cheer me up obviously. My ex happened to show up, threw some pvssy dust his way, and he left us all there to drive her home. Of course he got nothing from her, she just wanted to piss me off. I had to thank her for showing me what kind of friend I got.

My male friends who don't have such a scarcity mindset with women will have my back, and I have theirs. I can't trust the pvssy beggars.

Yes those orbiter male "friends" are also a major annoyance.

There are guys who are clueless with women but are nothing like the ones mentioned above though.