Gunman opens fire on lecture hall at Northern Illinois U

[Francisco d'Anconia]

People just can't cope anymore, and it's not only men either. They're frustrated and bitter and have an "me against the world" attitude. Instead of getting real help they just sit and stew until they boil over. Did someone say that this place was a breeding ground guys like this?

 

[Aboleo]

Um, the kid wanted to die, as most of these gunman who do this type of thing do. Putting more guns into peoples hands will only feed the problem.

So, let me get this straight... because some guy wants to kill himself, me, my girlfriend, a few of our friends and maybe even my dog... I'm just supposed to lay down and die like a ****ing animal to keep from 'feeding the problem'?!

Just an example there...

Your logic really doesn't make any sense. If someone like this who feels strongly about what they are doing, (you know,willing to die for it) then they are going to get weapons. It doesn't really matter what the law says. Bad guys will always have the ability to obtain and use firearms... even if they have to make them. If they can't, they will just use knives, swords, clubs, screwdrivers... whatever. you get the idea.

Stop acting like mindless sheep! The police can't always protect you (sometimes they are actually out to hurt you, if they even care about you at all). Buy a gun if you care about protecting yourself and your loved ones. Incidents involving violence like this are only going to escalate. At the very least, it is better to have a gun and not need it, than to need one and not have it.

My 2 cents.

 

[Pimp101]

Guns for everyone then. That'll work, people are basically good and trustworthy and won't use them when they're drunk or anything. Do the homeless get to have guns too?

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin

Your train of thought is the same one used to justify imprisoning people with no fair trial to prevent terrorism. Its the same one used to justify warrantless wiretapping and trusting authority without question. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? What ever happened to personal responsibility and free will? More importantly who is anyone to tell a person what they can and can't do?

I agree with some of the other posters here that theres a deeper issue at hand - society is rotten at its core. Give a gun to a sane person - will he kill? No. Give a gun or a knife or a fist to an insane person and he will do damage. We should be concentrating on the difference between those two people, i.e. sanity and insanity, and what causes it rather than trading freedom for "peace of mind." Honestly, I feel more secure when I know that nobody around me WANTS to act violently than when everyone around is SUPPRESSING their violent desires. Gun control will only give you the latter.

 

[Nighthawk]

We should be concentrating on the difference between those two people, i.e. sanity and insanity, and what causes it

Good luck with that. In the meantime am I allowed a tactical nuclear weapon? Or are there limits to my freedom?

 

[Aboleo]

...am I allowed a tactical nuclear weapon? Or are there limits to my freedom?

I fail to see the correlation between a weapon of mass destruction and a personal firearm.:kick:

Wow, this thread went way off topic... Anyways, I feel bad for the students and their families (sick f*cking head-case aside). Perhaps more high schools and universities will look into providing armed security in the near future to help prevent this from happening.

 

[bigjohnson]

For what it's worth *I* feel safer if I know a few of the people around me are also carrying firearms.

In the bigger picture, why does an event like this inevitably turn into an excuse to revisit gun banning arguments? When terrorists flew into the WTS I don't recall a huge debate on banning commercial aircraft. When Timmy blew up the IRS in Oklahoma I don't recall a huge cry to ban rental vans.

Maybe we could just once talk about the actual event? Or has that moment already passed?

 

[Nighthawk]

I fail to see the correlation between a weapon of mass destruction and a personal firearm.:kick:

They both kill people. So do screwdrivers and Boeing 747s in the wrong hands. My question is (clearly) what are the limits of owning a weapon for self defence. Sorry if raising this question annoys gun enthusiasts so much, please don't shoot me.

 

[bigjohnson]

They both kill people. So do screwdrivers and Boeing 747s in the wrong hands. My question is (clearly) what are the limits of owning a weapon for self defence. Sorry if raising this question annoys gun enthusiasts so much, please don't shoot me.

The intrinsic problem with your apparent mindset is the concept that although virtually anything can be used as a weapon you appear to assume guns are in some special class of object that are only useful as a weapon.

This is a common emotional reaction and is not true. Once you can start to think outside that big-city-boy box you will see where so called 'gun enthusiasts' are hailing from.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Nighthawk, suppose you had been in New Orleans after Katrina, I wasn't, but suppose you were. When there was no police force to protect you and there were bands of looters roaming the city, would your views on gun control change? A 12-gauge is barbaric in the wrong hands, but it is your best friend when someone is trying to harm you. We are very rarely in these situations, but they do happen.

I am no gun nut; I prefer big dogs. I don't even keep the guns I own at my own house, but I don't see the US ever banning firearms. Australia did an outright ban, seize, and destroy for all firearms in the 90's, but that is just never going to happen in the US. We like guns too much.

 

[Nighthawk]

I guess they are useful for non-weaponry tasks such as paper-weights and hat-movers, but could you maybe forgive my 'big-city-boy emotional reaction' and answer the perfectly reasonable question as to what limits, if any, you think people should have on weapon-owning. Grenades - in or out? Iron Man suit - do I need a licence? Tasers - suitable for children?

 

[Nighthawk]

Nighthawk, suppose you had been in New Orleans after Katrina, I wasn't, but suppose you were. When there was no police force to protect you and there were bands of looters roaming the city, would your views on gun control change? A 12-gauge is barbaric in the wrong hands, but it is your best friend when someone is trying to harm you. We are very rarely in these situations, but they do happen.

I am no gun nut; I prefer big dogs. I don't even keep the guns I own at my own house, but I don't see the US ever banning firearms. Australia did an outright ban, seize, and destroy for all firearms in the 90's, but that is just never going to happen in the US. We like guns too much.

Yeah I'm in the UK, we have practically no gun ownership. I understand that the US is nowhere close to banning guns or restricting their usage any further, and it really isn't my business. But I am interested in what restrictions, if any, pro-gunners think are reasonable and I'm always amused by the suggestion that if everyone had a gun things would be a lot safer.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I am scared of people who want to ban anything.

I bet a lot of anti-gun people think motorcycles should be banned, too. I ride an R1 that will go 170 mph. It's a traffic-law breaking machine. Being legal is about impossible. And these things are dangerous, something like 100 times the risk of dying just to get on one. But I ride every chance I get. If we banned everything dangerous that did not make a lot of sense, then it would be a very boring world.

 

[Nighthawk]

I don't think many anti-gun people want to ban motorcycles.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I say ban the idiots who misuse the tools, we shouldn't need to shield people from being responsible.

 

[bigjohnson]

.... answer the perfectly reasonable question as to what limits, if any, you think people should have on weapon-owning.

The fact that you want to discuss the limits of weapon ownership as opposed to gun ownership is pretty much all I need to know about you and your level of expertise on the subject matter. Weapon ownership and gun ownership are related but different discussions in much the same way that all Salmon are fish but not all fish are Salmon.

More to the point, when you ask about restrictions on owning weapons, are you really talking about ALL weapons, or just firearms? Once you decide that, please post your views to start us off.

I ride an R1 that will go 170 mph. It's a traffic-law breaking machine. Being legal is about impossible.

No it's not. I ride a liter sportbike (CBR) and being legal is a matter of self control and competence.

 

[Trinitron]

All I know is if I was American, I'd carry a gun with me every where it was legal for me to do so!

 

[bigjohnson]

Having a gun isn't available to 'all', and guns are not just useful for self defense. People often try to treat guns as some special magical class of device when in fact they are just objects like everything else man creates.

When discussing banning guns we would do well to remember that the same process we use to arrive at our conclusion should be applicable to ALL manmade objects. For instance, why are screwdrivers (the tool, not the drink) permitted?

Beer bottles?
Baseball bats?
Swimming pools?
Cars?
Kitchen knives?
Chainsaws?
....

Guns are easy to demonize because a relative minority of the world actually has any significant first hand experience using them. The vast majority of most peoples gun experience is via media exposure. Would you trust the entertainment industry to teach you how to do anything really useful?

 

[meitenesrigas]

Travel to Switzerland on a weekend. Tons of young guys with hair riding the trains with machine guns. Those guns end up back home in their rooms. Daddy probably has one as well. Switzerland is bursting with guns. Never quite figured out who they are afraid of? The biggest threat to Switzerland is probably America. Uncle Sam doesn't like large banks that he can't control. Switzerland is loaded with just such banks.

 

[Pimp101]

@Nighthawk For the record people do have guns in the UK. Guess who those people are... thats right, the wrong people. So if a criminal can get his hands on a gun with or without breaking the law then who exactly is the law protecting? The law ends up taking away protection from citizens and doing nothing to curb gun crime.

Need evidence that gun control does nothing to reduce crime rates?

Violent crime (including gun crime) in the UK is up:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4700575.stm

and violent crime in the US is down:

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

How can you explain this without admitting that guns don't cause crime?

 

[thehexman]

Well, since 26-OCT-2007 large parts of the Swiss Army's actives have to return their personal ammunition to storage. It is in fact somewhat difficult to steal these guns, as they are usually kept locked up.

It is true by the way that in many European countries getting a firearms license is not too difficult, but certain restriction may apply. Where I live, guns have to kept locked up in a certified safe and law enforcement officials can enter any home to which a firearm is registered without obtaining a warrant first to make sure that they are kept locked up. You cannot transport a gun in any way except to hunt and to the firing range, guns and ammo must be kept seperate even when travelling, must be kept in a locked case, etc etc etc. Police do check when hunting season starts. It is almost impossible to obtain permission to carry a weapon, concealed or not.

Stupid as this may sound to Americans, but it seems to work. About 98% of all crimes, including burglary, are carried out by unarmed criminals. The most common weapons are knives, followed closely by sticks and steel-toed boots.

Hell, in some countries police go around unarmed to a large degree, such as the UK or Japan. They don't seem to have such a large problem with that, and crime rates do show.

And to all the people who are for having a gun for personal safety: If you are not trained to use one professionally, odds are about greater than 50% that your weapon will be used against you.

Sure, where there's a will there's a way, but the average joe will have a hard time finding a gun if there's sufficient control. Guns are, btw, not a really lucrative business in smuggling, as they are made of metal, thus easy to detect, require ammo, are heavy, large and cheap. Drugs are much more profitable, a policeman told me.