Goals - Overrated?

[Señor Fingers]

In a recent thread, brother Mistic raised an interesting idea I think we can milk a good discussion out of.

Does setting goals in your personal life rob you of the irreplaceable present moment you are experiencing right now?

At what point should we simply BE, instead of chasing the giant carrot of happiness beyond our grasp? How much should we be willing to suffer to get what we want? Is desire itself an obstacle to our fulfillment?

These are pressing questions and while I have my own ideas on the subject, I am truly curious to hear your opinions.

 

[Gubby]

I don't set goals. I dream.

Goals are bossing yourself about.

Dreaming is revelling in love.

If I plan for something, then I dream of what I want and enjoy the process of getting there. I throw my energy into the dissonance between want and have to make the change, grinning at the thought of triumph.

I've been struggling with this for a while but I realise that as I child I had it right, and the ideas I picked up since then were wrong. If you can't enjoy something in your head as you make it real, what do you want it to be real for?

Life is play!

 

[joekerr31]

should we eat healthy or should we just eat?

its all about balance. if all you eat is rice and chicken breasts, day in and day out, year after year, eating will become extremely unfun.

but if you just eat mcdonalds day in and day out, you'll die at 45.

so its about balance. eat chicken and rice a lot of the time, but have a treat now and then as well.

when you create balance it becomes a lifestyle. when you force yourself into one of the extremes it becomes a punishment.

same thing with goals. if you have no goals you'll wonder through life accomplishing nothing. but if your goals rule your life, then you'll have no life (just a never ending pursuit of some goal).

the key is to have goals - ie. for your compass to be pointing in one direction or another - but then at the same time to forget your goals while you are in the process of achieving them and simply enjoy the journey.

this is the great crux of life - to engage in an activity while not worrying about the outcome.

the goals will set you in motion, but where the journey takes you is the fun of life. be open to changing paths when life presents you with a better path to follow. and always maintain balance.

save for retirement, but don't stop living just to save for the last few days of your life

 

[romangod]

Does setting goals in your personal life rob you of the irreplaceable present moment you are experiencing right now?

At what point should we simply BE, instead of chasing the giant carrot of happiness beyond our grasp? How much should we be willing to suffer to get what we want? Is desire itself an obstacle to our fulfillment?

These are pressing questions and while I have my own ideas on the subject, I am truly curious to hear your opinions.

Interesting.................. My goal is to live in the present moment without sentiment to the past or worrying about the future. This is what Jung called the "Modern Man".

Happiness is within our grasp. The key is to wade through all the crap and meaningless pursuits to come to the realization that the happiness is dependant on ourselves as apposed to the hot babe or new leisure suit.

If one is too dependant or obsessed by the "rat race" the eventual outcome is that they may lead for a while but still end up being a rat.

Cheers!

 

[RedPill]

Does setting goals in your personal life rob you of the irreplaceable present moment you are experiencing right now?

No.

Goals are parameters to gauge success and failure of a given objective. Without them, we become directionless, and that's a bad thing.

We're robbed of the present moment when we choose to focus on the outcome of our objectives. Outcome dependency reeks of fear and desperation; it's an unattractive quality. It's premature ejaculation of the ego.

With women - focusing on getting laid later that evening robs one of both the arts of seduction and creating memorable social experiences. Creating a bank of viable options is a much more sound strategy for procuring a steady stream of ass than aiming for one-off lays with women who barely know or trust you.

In business - focusing on the profitability of a successful deal robs one of the art of forming winning business relationships, and it's unattractive to the other party. Trying to force the other party into hasty decisions will kill a deal faster than you can say "frustrated chump."

In sports - focusing on dominating the opponent at all times robs one of their present opportunities to exercise the process of performance which they've practiced so hard to perfect. You'll win far more often with a superior set of well-rehearsed strategies and tactics than by trying to bulldoze your competition into submission.

------

Certainly it's challenging if one is driven primarily by their ego, but focusing on the art and process of a given endeavor will go much further in helping someone realize their goals than will focusing on the outcome. Value in life is driven largely by the qualitative aspects of things, since humans are emotional beings.

I hate to use this cliché because I think people tend to use clichés as fodder to sit around and masturbate instead of taking action, but one has to BE before they can consistently DO, and DO before they can repeatedly HAVE.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...
Goals are parameters to gauge success and failure of a given objective. Without them, we become directionless, and that's a bad thing....

I completely agree but with that I challenge the quality of goals that are typically set. More times than not its more about quantity as if the more of a certain thing that I have the better. For example, guys could meet a ton of women yet the quality of the women makes them bounce off the walls with all of the drama these women bring into their lives. They want to attract more women but they seldom specify the type of women so even though they're getting more attention, it's the dregs that are in abundance.

 

[comic_relief]

Same goes for goal setting, which seems to have value on the surface. But the reality about goal setting is that is is an effort made by a person to control an outcome. It is a control freaks method for trying to get results. It is not based in being present in the moment. It is a fear based effort dressed up in a positive skin. Did Yoda, or Neo, or Indians Jones, or James Bond, or whoever people hear aspire to set goals? No, they believed in themselves and there ability to respond to each moment life brings. That is all

WHAT!!! Each one of the people had a definite goal even if they didn't say it.

* "Indians Jones" - Get the prize before the bad guys gets it
* Yoda - make Luke Skywalker a jedi/preserve and teach the jedi order
* Neo - Unplug people from the Matrix


I personally have one hundred goals to keep my mind on the prize of becoming a motivational speaker.

The purpose of goals is to give you an idea of what you want to do. It's the framework of how you want to do in your life, but it doesn't control my life (and is subject to change as situation warrants it).

The importance is to have a goal to reach, without one you shuffle through life without an aim or meaning to it. These are the people that are easily controllable.

With a goal, a person will at least have something to strive for.

Out of curiousity, what are you here for?

comic_relief

Let me first say that you are dealing with a person who's business is to help retail stores and other businesses set goals. I fully understand what the purpose of goal setting is about.

But you also need to understand that I speak from a Zen mindset. In Zen the goal is NOW. Any goals set for outcomes in the future are future orientated. The future is an illusion, hence goals have little value to someone like me.

It is only when I dont set goals that the real magic of life happens. But this life style takes absolute trust. Goals bring security. You know where you are, where you're headed, and how you are tracking. This is not trust in life, this is control.

Goals make sense for a business, but not for a person.

Why am I here? To bring a fresh perspective perhaps.

Peace

in reference to Mystic's post

Interesting. There is no place for goal setting for a person? What do you mean goals for now? Trusting life? Do you mean you let life take you? Or do you mean something else? For me, goal setting is part of the central thinking to reaching dreams. Perhaps you are defining goals as a different thing (we'll find out when you respond), but to me, goals are setting an aim to reach dreams (which are the ultimate goals). I remember a speaker a long time ago who advocated goal setting to a weekend retreat of Rotarians and that have became one of my standards to how I want to live. Hard to imagine following an ambition or achieving a dream without setting it as a goal to reach. Can you elaborate on this zen?

exactly TheHumanist, please elaborate Mystic.

Perhaps we are going under a different idea of goals.

Personally, I like having an internal locus of control. The idea that I have control of my own life and nothing and nobody else has control of me. It leads to high self-esteem because of the freeing aspect that we are where we are because of the decisions that we made. I'm also a follower of soft determinism as well. Call me a control freak if you will, I don't really care because I know where I want to be going.

It seems that you are advocating an internal locus of control, which means that a persons life is controlled by external things such as fate or other people. I dislike that idea.

comic_relief

P.S. so not to bring this out of control, I will copy and repaste the posts over to the other post that senor made. This will insure that we will not hijack this thread with a different idea.

I have no want to destroy senor's old post with this discussion. Let the discussion continue.

comic_relief

 

[ChrizZ]

The only goal you should have is to live life to the fullest and then take the required action.

This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time.

Might as well enjoy it and fvck what everybody else thinks.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

happiness IS the pursuit of worthy goals. (for man, evolved to chase after food that was running away)

worthy depends on you.


the road is better than the inn.

if you focus goals too much, you fall into the "I want" which means "I don't have" mentality which leads to scarcity thinking.

you need to both "have" in the NOW and "have direction" for the FUTURE.

to only live in the NOW, you'd crap your pants without planning to get up to go to the toilet.

to only live in the FUTURE would suck a$$.

balance. equilibrium. (of the non-stable variety)

best way to achieve goals?

imagine what you would feel like if you already HAD it, and FEEL it, as if you already HAVE it and let that guide you.

except don't FEEL like you have it too much, when you are looking at that HB9.7 across the room, or else you'll CUMM IN YOUR PANTS, and then you will have a sticky mess on your hands. gross!

 

[azanon]

It unfortunately wasn't until I was 21 or 22, or so, before I decided I'd be satisfied and happy right where I was at in life. Sure, I was still moving forward, so-to-speak, still going to school getting a Masters, but I decided that was for tomorrow. I think before 21, I was always thinking, if I could just make it to *****, I'll be happy.

You have to be happy in the moment; every moment. As they are fond of saying in churches, you aren't promised tomorrow. Live every day like it's your last!

 

[ketostix]

It unfortunately wasn't until I was 21 or 22, or so, before I decided I'd be satisfied and happy right where I was at in life. Sure, I was still moving forward, so-to-speak, still going to school getting a Masters, but I decided that was for tomorrow. I think before 21, I was always thinking, if I could just make it to *****, I'll be happy.

You have to be happy in the moment; every moment. As they are fond of saying in churches, you aren't promised tomorrow. Live every day like it's your last!

I think that's a good point. You have long-term goals and short-term goals. In the short-term or present you want to be happy with where you're at. Add to that what Joekerr said about balance and it's a matter of balancing the present with your long-term goals.

 

[Mistic]

if you have no goals you'll wonder through life accomplishing nothing.

I have accomplished great things without goals by simply responding to opportunities that present themselves. Believe me, it would be so much easier to work with goals and plans. But for me, every time I set a goal or make a plan life laughs at me and twists sh!t so far the other way that what I end up doing has nothing to do with my original intention. I have had to learn only to respond to what is in front of me. Especially in these times of radical change and wordly instability.

 

[Mistic]

Without them, we become directionless, and that's a bad thing.

Let me explain something that may help. If you are of a Zen/Buddhist/Taoist mindset, then directionlessness is a good thing. It is the only way.

If you are of the Christian/Hindu/Mohommedian mindset then goals are the path.

There are two paths in life, Via Affirmativa, and Via Negativa. This is the active vs. the inactive mindset.

For the Christian and Hindu heaven is the goal. To get to heaven you need to do much work. You need to have goals and a direction to gauge your progress. For the Buddhists and Taoists, right NOW is the goal. There is no future heaven and happiness to attain to. It is within you grasp NOW and here.

The Christian path is for followers. You follow the lead of the Father and strive to become more like him. The Zen path is for true seekers. You are 100% responsible for yourself and you dont know where you will end up. It is an open book. Christianity, Hindu is a closed book.

Goal setting is creating a closed book. You know where you want go, and when you get there you have succeeded. That journey ends. The mistic journey never ends, thus it is truly a living path, wher as the goal path is a dead mechanical process waiting to complete itself. Then you will need a new goal or you will stagnate.

 

[Mistic]

And this last incite I posted in the other thread.

I look at it this way. To set a goal is to say that you are not content with your current situation or your current self. Rather than setting goals to get you where your ego wants to be, why not spend some time investigating what it is about yourself that thinks you need to be any different than you are right now.

 

[Latinoman]

Goals are important because they give you direction and a clean the path to the longer term goals in your life. Long term goals are not set in stone. There are just some sort of “vision”.

Let’s use career as an example. Let’s say I have a long term goal for my career. I determine my strengths and my weaknesses. I set the goal in the 5+year goals (long term), the 2-3 year goals (mid term), and less than 18 months goals (short term). The 18 month goals are there for the purpose of helping me improve in the weaknesses that are stopping me from achieving the main goal. The mid term goals are there to allow me to reach certain things that will enable me to reach the long term goal (which by then, that long term goal would become a mid term goal for another long term goal).

Perhaps a person wants to become an engineer. Well, you cannot just become an engineer. You need an education. So, your short term goals could be to search and apply for the appropriate engineering program. Your mid term goal could be to complete x number of classes by the 2 or 3 year mark. And the long term goal could be graduation and looking for a prospective employer. Having said that, you might change your path and completely change your mind. There is nothing wrong with that. Life experiences can allow us to see thing differently, the environment can make us change too. That’s perfectly fine.

If you live life by the day…you will die the same way. You cannot live life without direction. Direction will help you prepare for the time you need to react to anything unexpected.

 

[TheHumanist]

As I thought, you are speaking from the taoist mindset. Lao Tzu's idea in "action by inaction" which mean doing the stuff without conscious effort.

However, I interpreted the here and now thinking closer to the Enlightenment thought that we should not be putting off life until we reach the destination (which in context, living to reach heaven, then be happy).

For me, I think setting goals is a dream to reach much less a destination that I have to gauge if I'm still on track. I think of NASA's strategy in sending statelites to another planet, instead of perfect calculating how to bring that orbiter to another planet and guaging its progress, take an aim to the destination and recalculate as opportunity and obstatcles in the travels.

In my readings then and this discussion now, I believe that the Western view of regid goal setting and the Eastern view of going with the flow are not mutally exclusive as it looks. It means putting on flexiblity and understanding that many times the original goal is actually a McGruffin (wiki it, I will have a hard time explaining it.... I'm having a hard time right now, actually part of Taoism is I only gain wisdom by age, unlike other philosophies, in many ways, I know really nothing)

 

[Latinoman]

Using the NASA example...

The goal was to set man to the moon before Russians did.

The goal was accomplished...but as a by-product of that goal...other nice things were also discovered such as advances in computers and medicine.
And that created other paths and goals.

 

[Squiggly Sponge]

Very interesting discussion...

If you live life by the day…you will die the same way. You cannot live life without direction. Direction will help you prepare for the time you need to react to anything unexpected.

I agree with what you say, but isn't creating goals what leads to one having expectations in the first place? If one has no goals, then there's nothing to expect. Then if something happens, then one can react regardless of whether the it 'planned' or not. I guess I would advocate growth rather than goal-setting. But the latter definitely does have its place, as Joekerr said, balance is integral.

If you're perpetually creating goals, then at what point do you enjoy yourself? By creating goals and looking toward outcomes, you are engaging in a never ending loop. It seems when you complete a goal, there always has to be another one following, you simply cannot be happy where you're at. Life becomes an obstacle course of sorts.

I have a question for Mistic though. If you don't set goals, then how do you avoid becoming complacent?

 

[Latinoman]

I agree with what you say, but isn't creating goals what leads to one having expectations in the first place? If one has no goals, then there's nothing to expect.

It is not about expectations...I mean...you have not experienced it yet...you should not know what to expect. If my goal is to become a CEO in my company...I don't know what to expect as I have never been a CEO. All I know is that I want to become a CEO because ____. Once you reach a certain goal...then and only then you know how it FEELS to be a Gold Medallist (if that was the goal).

It is about knowing where you want to go and what path you should follow in order to get there.

Then if something happen, then one can react regardless of whether the it 'planned' or not. I guess I would advocate growth rather than goal-setting. But the latter definitely does have its place, as Joekerr said, balance is integral.

If you have direction in life and something out of the ordinary presents...you will be better prepare to react because you understand that you did an adjustment. Heck, if you fail trying to reach a goal...you get up and regroup. THAT is what brings growth. Overcoming failure. Overcoming the fact we have to change paths. THAT is what brings growth. But if you never had a path...then...

If you're perpetually creating goals, then at what point do you enjoy yourself? By creating goals and looking toward outcomes, you are engaging in a never ending loop.

You enjoy yourself EVERYTIME you reach your goal. And you enjoy yourself everytime you realize you have GROWN as a Man everytime you had to change paths.

It seems when you complete a goal, there always has to be another one following, you simply cannot be happy where you're at. Life becomes an obstacle course of sorts.

Actually...life HAS meaning for those that are always trying to find something to do or reach.

I have a question for Mistic though. If you don't set goals, then how do you avoid becoming complacent?

Be ready for some Tao or crazy Chinesse philosophy.

 

[Latinoman]

Here is the thing…

When the U.S. created NASA with the goal of sending man to space and the Moon, new discoveries in the computers and medical field came as a by-product. Appreciation for these things were greater because they came as a by-product of a path that was created for the original goal. In fact, some people changed careers in order to pursue a different path toward medicine or computers.


Maybe I want to be the CEO of my company. And as I prepare setting the path (by creating short term and mid term goals) …I might find along the way some things that might come as a by-product of this path. And those things are the ones that can make me adjust my goals my long term goals.

That’s what life is all about.

Those with direction (and discipline) tend to adjust a lot better than those without direction. Those with the desire to succeed tend to adjust better than those that live life without anything to live for. Don’t be lazy.