For Latinoman: Setting Expectations

[DJCT]

In a couple posts you talked about setting expectations with a woman. You wrote that you were careful to set them in such a way as you weren't trying to control a woman's behavior or tell her how you wanted her to act but simply letting her know your standards/expectations and the consequences for her actions.

I looked through a bunch of your posts but was hoping you could write about that specifically in more detail.

Thx,

- CT

 

[Latinoman]

Keeping in mind that as of today this is how I see things (I can always change my mind in the future).

One thing I have learned is that there are two things that are not illegal, but can still destroy a man’s life. That is alcohol and women.

I have seen a lot of men concerned about their long term relationship partners cheating or flirting way too much (leaving the impression, correct or not, that they are open to cheat). And I came to the realization that those men tend to neglect other important areas of their lives because their minds are too occupied on their women unacceptable behavior.


Therefore, I came to the realization that the best way to deal with this is to set expectations and standards from the beginning.

When I date a woman…I always have fun. But once that woman transforms into a relationship (which later will become a Long Term Relationship), I start covertly telling that woman (and eventually overtly telling her) the following message: that I live by a code of RESPECT.

Therefore, here are my expectations:

1- I expect her to respect me.
2- I expect her to not contribute toward others disrespecting me


I don’t try to control them. I don’t even tell them what to do. I simply tell them that in order for me to take this relationship serious then those two things must take place.

#1 is pretty straight forward. But #2…is not. And that’s the reason I tell them.

Several examples (Note: I don't provide examples to my woman, I am providing them to you):

a) If a male that works with her or is her friend…start hitting on her, knowing well that she has a boyfriend…she (not me) has to put a stop to that. If she doesn’t, then she is contributing toward that man disrespecting me and the relationship.
b) If a stranger on the street hits on her (not knowing she is with me), and she ignores him…that is NOT disrespect. Now if he hits on her in front of my face knowing she is with me...then I put a stop to that as he is clearly disrespecting me.
c) If she starts flirting with a man…she is doing #2, because she is contributing toward him disrespecting me (by potentially make him think he can hit on her).
d) If she goes to lunch with co-workers, etc., that is not disrespect.
e) If a co-worker that does not know she has a boyfriend hits on her and she simply ignores him…that’s not disrespect.
f) If her friend has the hots for her knowing that she is with me, and she continues going out with him because she just see him as a friend (lot of women simply like the attention), she is clearly contributing toward him disrespecting me.

Those are examples that illustrate that you cannot call everything “disrespect”.

Now…many men in here will say: “Wow…Latinoman is too controlling”

My answer is…I am not. I simply have certain expectations from the woman I have in a committed relationship with me. I don’t prohibit them from doing whatever they want (unless impact me financially or my health). I simply tell them what I consider #1 or #2 in that list. It is up to them to do it or not do it. And it is up to me to either finish the relationship or start taking the relationship less serious.

Some men will say: “Latinoman is naïve. Women will do whatever…”

And here is when I say that if you choose a woman for a committed relationship and
1- You have knowledge about her past (which is important)
and
2- You apply the “Blitz State Theorem” that I shared with you in another link

Then the likelihood of being in a healthy relationship with a woman that respects you and adores you and at the same time is strong enough to tell you she disagrees with some of your stuff without disrespecting you are very high. Those odds are very high.

And what does that do for you as a DJ? It allows you to focus on your career…your health…your hobbies…it keeps you from getting some weird sexual disease…it keeps your stress level in check…it keeps you relax. As you don’t have to worry about her whereabouts. You don’t have to worry about another man trying to take her away from you. You don’t have to worry about jealousy. You don’t have to worry about having to find your next laid as you already have a woman that will give you that laid. And you will start producing more at work and your career.

That’s how I see things.

EDIT: Many men in here would say, "A DJ should not worry about how his woman behaves". My answer is, in the professional word, a man's judgement is what typically open the doors for trust, etc. A man that has poor judgement in picking his wife or a woman for a committed relationship, is also a man that will exercise poor judgement in other areas of his life. A man that cannot be trusted and many times...sadly...a man that lacks self-respect. How can another man respect a man that lacks self-respect?

 

[guru1000]

Therefore, here are my expectations:

1- I expect her to respect me.
2- I expect her to not contribute toward others disrespecting me

This is the FOUNDATION for any successful relationship.

Respect for each other's boundaries.

A woman must know what boundaries are in place; else she will have no accountability for her conduct. In other words, if she can DISRESPECT you with no consequence, she will do it again.

IF she UNDERSTANDS the consequence is LOSING you, she will ALWAYS respect your EXPECTATIONS as long as she finds VALUE in you.

The problem with many MEN, is because they lack a criteria of STANDARDS for themselves, they are unable to set BOUNDARIES for their woman.

After all, how could you expect another to respect you when you do not respect yourself.

This is where INTEGRITY sets the difference between HIGH CHARACTER and men with low self esteem.

What are you willing to SACRIFICE for your CHARACTER?

The answer to this question shows what kind of woman you will accept.

 

[The Bat]

Excellent post. If your woman has no respect for you, then you can bet that she's going to start wearing the pants in the relationship.

Again, wonderful post.

 

[lookyoung]

If she goes to lunch with co-workers, etc., that is not disrespect

Great list Latinoman and I agree with everything you have to say. However I think that her going out to lunch with a male companian one on one is disrespect. (especially if they are in the same age range) If they go out in a group than thats ok.

I would add 1 more thing to that list.

If your LTR or a girl you want to get serious with chooses to be a bartender, work at hooters, or work in a nightclub setting I find that to be disrespect.

 

[Latinoman]

Great list Latinoman and I agree with everything you have to say. However I think that her going out to lunch with a male companian one on one is disrespect. (especially if they are in the same age range) If they go out in a group than thats ok.

I would add 1 more thing to that list.

If your LTR or a girl you want to get serious with chooses to be a bartender, work at hooters, or work in a nightclub setting I find that to be disrespect.

I go to lunch many times with co-workers (married or not) and the likes in the cafeteria in our building. So, it would have to be in a case by case basis.

I don't even consider for a serious relationship any woman that works in the places I listed below. In fact, that's more than enough reason to disqualify them. I would still probably bang them or make them FWB. But not LTR.

 

[Mr. Me]

I came to the realization that the best way to deal with this is to set expectations and standards from the beginning.

That's what you think you realize, I get something else from your post.

I get that you, first and foremost, select the right person to be with. A woman who doesn't have that inordinate need to flirt with other men, the woman who doesn't need to get undue male attention, a woman who knows to proactively nip another man's flirtation in the bud, a woman of integrity who understands what respect means and intends to honor that. Without that in place, all it would do is put the wrong woman on notice for that probably inevitable day when her nature gives in.

Maybe it's more important to stress primarily the making of good choices in partners, rather than say it's about setting expectations. Otherwise, I think guys may deem from your post that the strong point is to tell your partners what's expected of them, and we'll have a bunch of guys tonight reading their S.O's the riot act thinking that's all there is to it.

What you call "setting expectations" I think could more aptly be called "setting your boundaries": the things you will not tolerate and what the consequences of those deal breakers will be.

But once that woman transforms into a relationship (which later will become a Long Term Relationship), I start covertly telling that woman (and eventually overtly telling her) the following message: that I live by a code of RESPECT.

A lot of that boundary setting occurs in the dating stage, which is when a guy is supposed to be evaluating the woman for her long term potential *before* getting into a relationship with her.

A small example: Does she answer her cell phone when on a date? If she does, does she get off the phone promptly after finding out what it's about or does she continue to chit chat with her friend for a bit? If so, the man then needs to ask her to put her phone away during the date, and does she readily comply, or does she give him an argument about it? That's when you're seeing evidence of if she's going to give you the respect and courtesy you're looking for in someone and if she'll honor your boundaries.

 

[ketostix]

Latinoman, I actually agree with everything you said. The thing is, and this is along the lines of what Mr. ME said, setting expectations is but one necessary part of the eqaution. The biggest factor is how much she in to you to begin with. If she's into you she'll be setting those same expectations on you. I guess what I'm getting at is if you find yourself having to set expectations frequently, you don't have the attraction with her that's necessary. I also think women rarely fall into faithful good women and bad women. Most are in the middle and act either way depending on their attraction to the guy and the expectations he's set. Also attraction doesn't always last indefinitely and can be outside the total control of the man.

I don't mean to put Lookyoung out there on this, but I solidly agree with him in that most women of today aren't exactly quality. Most quality women get married when they're young. I tend to think there's more "quality" women under the age 25 than over 25.

 

[Latinoman]

Latinoman, I actually agree with everything you said. The thing is, and this is along the lines of what Mr. ME said, setting expectations is but one necessary part of the eqaution. The biggest factor is how much she in to you to begin with. If she's into you she'll be setting those same expectations on you. I guess what I'm getting at is if you find yourself having to set expectations frequently, you don't have the attraction with her that's necessary. I also think women rarely fall into faithful good women and bad women. Most are in the middle and act either way depending on their attraction to the guy and the expectations he's set. Also attraction doesn't always last indefinitely and can be outside the total control of the man.

Let me start by saying that I would NEVER advice anyone to get in a relationship with a woman that did not originally found him attractive as attraction is non-negotiable as is in fact some kind of chemical reaction.


Anyway, I set expectations based on a concept that define my own values. That concept is self-respect. And consequently, I expect

1- Her Respect for me

and

2- Her not contributing toward others disrespecting me

Those two are non-negotiable qualities in the woman that I choose as my partner. They help define my values (self-respect).

If you follow my "Blitz State" theorem then your chances of keeping her attraction alive throughtout the years are higher. Having said that...if a woman loses attraction...then instead of disrespecting me or contributing toward others disrespecting me...instead she should leave me.

I don't mean to put Lookyoung out there on this, but I solidly agree with him in that most women of today aren't exactly quality. [/Quality]

I would say that there are more quality women out there than there are DJ men. If this Country was full of DJ men...you can rest assure that we would have more "quality women" out there.

Most quality women get married when they're young. I tend to think there's more "quality" women under the age 25 than over 25.

Quite possibly. Quite possibly.

 

[Latinoman]

That's what you think you realize, I get something else from your post.

I get that you, first and foremost, select the right person to be with. A woman who doesn't have that inordinate need to flirt with other men, the woman who doesn't need to get undue male attention, a woman who knows to proactively nip another man's flirtation in the bud, a woman of integrity who understands what respect means and intends to honor that. Without that in place, all it would do is put the wrong woman on notice for that probably inevitable day when her nature gives in.

Maybe it's more important to stress primarily the making of good choices in partners, rather than say it's about setting expectations. Otherwise, I think guys may deem from your post that the strong point is to tell your partners what's expected of them, and we'll have a bunch of guys tonight reading their S.O's the riot act thinking that's all there is to it.

What you call "setting expectations" I think could more aptly be called "setting your boundaries": the things you will not tolerate and what the consequences of those deal breakers will be.

I totally agree with you.

But there is always the "bait and switch" . And as women get older, they get better at luring men into relationships by hiding their bad qualities. So I make sure all of them understand where I stand when it comes to respect.

A lot of that boundary setting occurs in the dating stage, which is when a guy is supposed to be evaluating the woman for her long term potential *before* getting into a relationship with her.

A small example: Does she answer her cell phone when on a date? If she does, does she get off the phone promptly after finding out what it's about or does she continue to chit chat with her friend for a bit? If so, the man then needs to ask her to put her phone away during the date, and does she readily comply, or does she give him an argument about it? That's when you're seeing evidence of if she's going to give you the respect and courtesy you're looking for in someone and if she'll honor your boundaries.

I don't disagree. However, there are a LOT of AFCs out there. And many women are used to be with AFCs, so those women have not learned how to behave around real men. That is, until a Man (DJ) comes and lead her. Many times women don't know better. And it is up to us to educate them on the little things such as her answering her cell phone in a date is kind of wrong.

 

[MacAvoy]

I agree wholeheartedly with your OP LatinoMan. I also like the perspective that Keto brought in about high enough IL and it won't be an issue. At first I was perplexed because I agreed with both.

However I think where the problem comes in is that most men end up doing something or a chain of things that causes a women to decrease her IL. Which then leads to her disrespecting, by then, the man has fallen into the AFC tendencies and starts to allow the disrespect in a feeble attempt to keep her.

Personally I've done the same thing. My question is, do you have any suggestions on how guys can ingrain this so that it becomes habit and not to something that ends up being a catalyst for the AFC tendancies.

The reason I use AFC tendancies is because I've even seen alpha males who've bedded hundreds of women have this happen to them and I wouldn't call them AFC but I would say that there is always those underlying tendancies that we were taught our whole lives.

Habbits are very difficult to overcome. I was just thinking about that this morning. I moved into my grandparents place with my cousin & her husband 4 months ago. I lived here about 10 years ago for a couple years with my grandparents, my cousins have moved the drawyers where we keep the utensils, I still try go to the old place even after 4 months of knowing its in the new place.

My point is, we were taught since birth to be supplicating AFC's, its not easy kill those habits.

 

[DJCT]

Latinoman -- awesome responses. I'm still working through this thread. Wanted to say thanks though.

 

[Mr. Me]

And as women get older, they get better at luring men into relationships by hiding their bad qualities.

That's true. They learn what things about them turn the men off and hide them.

The answer is for the man to go s-l-o-w. Not enter relationships after a few dates, but to give a good amount of time for the guard to come down when she draws closer and feels freer to be herself and see how she treats you and watch for those flags.

But regardless if they've been hiding bad qualities, if you've been dating them for some time she should already be aware of what your boundaries are.

So I make sure all of them understand where I stand when it comes to respect.

So being that they should already be aware what your boundaries are before that point, again, wouldn't they already know by your prior actions up to that moment that you'll walk if needed? That you won't subject yourself to abuse, disrespect or drama? That it's not even going to be a discussion but an immediate termination? What's left to understand?

To me, explaining boundaries verbally seems to be needed when and if any such boundary is being encroached upon or close to it, in order to make it known that it's not acceptable and that there will be consequences. That's when you have to speak up and give fair warning. Otherwise, to sit someone down, without cause, to have to explain these boundaries seems a bit macho or domineering to me, and being macho or domineering is not a good way to keep a good woman.

If you're with a woman who's disrespecting you all of a sudden, if you're having to tell her to respect you, maybe you also have to take a step back and figure out what the hell's going on for that to happen. My guess is you'd have bigger problems then a talk would cover.

 

[Latinoman]

So being that they should already be aware what your boundaries are before that point, again, wouldn't they already know by your prior actions up to that moment that you'll walk if needed? That you won't subject yourself to abuse, disrespect or drama? That it's not even going to be a discussion but an immediate termination? What's left to understand?

To me, explaining boundaries verbally

I did not say verbally. Depending of the maturity/intelligence level of the woman...you might not have to explain to her anything verbally. But you still have to make her aware (covertly or overtly).

I had a woman in a committed relationship with me. Early in our relatitonship...an ex-boyfriend called her from time to time. I personally didn't care, because

1- he did not know she was in a relationship with me
2- she actually tried very hard to ignore his calls

But one day she was complaining about how he continued to call...and I told her that in my opinion the best solution was to simply tell him she was involved with another man. She did. He stopped calling.

But one day he called...and she answered. And told me he was saying how much he missed her. And I simply told her..."Listen, NOW he is disrespecting me and our relationship. I won't tell you what to do."

And do you know what? The drama stopped there. She understood that I was not jealous...but more importantly...she understood that I was not going to tolerate disrespect. She understood that I was not going to try and control her or even tell her what to do. She knew based on my past actions that I lived in a code of respect and once I told her that last statement, she came to the realization that I was going to disregard our relationship if she contributed toward this guy disrespecting me and the relationship.

Sometimes women need to be reminded in a subtle way of how we think about certain things. They have dealt with so many "m"en in their lives that when they finally deal with a "M"an, they truly don't know how to react. I made some things clear by either the way I act or the tone of my voice. I do spell out what is a deal breaker for me (cheating and is over) so there is not mistake.

I mean, women are like little kids...they will try to push a little bit the boundaries. It is up to you to make sure they understand the boundaries before they totally go past them.

 

[ketostix]

I did not say verbally. Depending of the maturity/intelligence level of the woman...you might not have to explain to her anything verbally. But you still have to make her aware (covertly or overtly).

I had a woman in a committed relationship with me. Early in our relatitonship...an ex-boyfriend called her from time to time. I personally didn't care, because

1- he did not know she was in a relationship with me
2- she actually tried very hard to ignore his calls

But one day she was complaining about how he continued to call...and I told her that in my opinion the best solution was to simply tell him she was involved with another man. She did. He stopped calling.

But one day he called...and she answered. And told me he was saying how much he missed her. And I simply told her..."Listen, NOW he is disrespecting me and our relationship. I won't tell you what to do."

And do you know what? The drama stopped there. She understood that I was not jealous...but more importantly...she understood that I was not going to tolerate disrespect. She understood that I was not going to try and control her or even tell her what to do. She knew based on my past actions that I lived in a code of respect and once I told her that last statement, she came to the realization that I was going to disregard our relationship if she contributed toward this guy disrespecting me and the relationship.

Sometimes women need to be reminded in a subtle way of how we think about certain things. They have dealt with so many "m"en in their lives that when they finally deal with a "M"an, they truly don't know how to react. I made some things clear by either the way I act or the tone of my voice. I do spell out what is a deal breaker for me (cheating and is over) so there is not mistake.

I mean, women are like little kids...they will try to push a little bit the boundaries. It is up to you to make sure they understand the boundaries before they totally go past them.

This is good stuff. Don't take this the wrong way but as a reference the summary of this woman's actions is what I'd call "Lower integrity+high interest level". The reason I say that is she didn't really need you to tell her to stop for her to stop the drama. Had you not told her what the boundaries are, there's no telling what she might've resorted to doing.

 

[mrRuckus]

And do you know what? The drama stopped there.

Did she just stop telling you about the calls or actually stop answering them?

 

[Latinoman]

Did she just stop telling you about the calls or actually stop answering them?

The dude stopped calling. He was older than me...so he knew better. She had a way of scaring people away (the type of woman that if you approached her, she will shut you down in the spot if she sensed you were a stranger trying to hit on her).

Honestly, I did not care if the dude called her. She had no control over that. And I knew she had no interest on him (if she did, she would have been with him). Besides, he was several States away. Sh-it she was getting tired of him calling her...but she thought she could give him advice about his marriage, etc. She dumped him about 3 or so years before meeting me. And when I met her...he kind of started calling her several days before she and I met. Once again, he was already married so she didn't see anything wrong with the calls. But she was getting tired about he whinning about his marriage. Now...once she told him that she was with me...he started to say how much she missed her, etc. In essence, he kind of panicked and started to make a move (I already knew that was his intention since the begining). And I made it clear to her...that the fact she was entertaining him (by taking his calls) was making her a contributor toward he disrespecting our relationship. I did not tell her directly like that. She understood what I meant covertly.

I did not make a threat. I simply made it clear he was disrespecting me and the relationship. She understood.

You will be surprised how scared a woman that is seriously into you get when she senses she can lose you. The dynamics change too. They start paying a LOT more attention to you and your needs. Of course, you try to create a balance not to abuse that "power".

 

[Mr. Me]

the summary of this woman's actions is what I'd call "Lower integrity+high interest level". The reason I say that is she didn't really need you to tell her to stop for her to stop the drama.

Something like that. I mean, if she had the right stuff, she doesn't need anyone telling her ""Listen, NOW he is disrespecting me and our relationship. I won't tell you what to do." Which, in a way, is inferring to her what you'd like her to do.

Not that I disagree with voicing your boundary. I think, in that case, you had to say something. And I think that because I have to wonder WHY she'd mention that guy's calling her to you and telling you what he said in the first place instead of taking care of it herself and being done with it and not disturbing your peace with this third party's bullsh1t and expressing her helplessness. By accepting his call and not doing anything about it, she was encroaching on your boundaries, which calls for giving fair warning.

I can't blame a guy for having the same good tastes in women that I have and trying for it, even though that does show me his disregard for my relationship. But they're not the ones in a relationship with me. So I would like to see that the person I've chosen to be with me knows what to do and does it. When they don't, they're the ones disrespecting me, not the other man.

If she has to mention it, I'd like to hear her say something like: "Ugh. The ex called! Says he misses me. I told him in no uncertain terms to stop calling and move on and throw away my number or I'm going to get a restraining order against him. Then I said goodbye and hung up. Hopefully, that should do it."

Again, it comes down to making the right choice of who to be with in the first place, and expressing boundaries making sure the other person understands when they're getting crossed.

 

[Latinoman]

Something like that. I mean, if she had the right stuff, she doesn't need anyone telling her ""Listen, NOW he is disrespecting me and our relationship. I won't tell you what to do." Which, in a way, is inferring to her what you'd like her to do.

I disagree.

Here is why...over 90% of men out there are either AFCs or recovering AFCs. Women grew up around those type of men. So...women see a lot of things as acceptable. In essence, her boundaries have been define after years of dealing with probably an AFC father or brother or former spouses/boyfriends/friends.

When a woman finally meets a DJ...she does that with a lifetime of ill-defined boundaries. As a DJ with have to lead.

Now, I am not talking here about cheating or engaging in low quality behavior. And I am not talking here about direct disrespect eitehr. Those are very clear concepts that ANY person should know.

What I am talking here is something that is foreign to many men and women.

And that is concept #2:

2- Her not contributing toward others disrespecting me

How foreign is that concept? When I first came to this board...I read dozens of advice given by man to other men on similar issue. The advice was literally the same: "If you are the prize...you should not worry about her flirting with another man." Or "If you are the prize...you won't tell her that allowing her friend to hit on her is wrong. That would make you seem weak or jealous".

Now...if men (men that post in Sosuave) give that kind of advice to another man...what they are truly doing is encouraging those men to allow their women to CONTRIBUTE toward others disrespecting them. Which mean that women have been given the green light to allow this to happen and consequently view nothing wrong with that.

Until they meet a man like Latinoman. A man that logically explain either overtly or covertly (depending of the woman and case) that allowing another man to disrespect me makes her as guilty as that man. That her role as MY woman is to protect me...the same way I will protect her from physical harm, her role is to safeguard my respect as a man.

I literally trumped the "I know he wants me, but you can rest assure I have no interest on him." by teaching her that the fact she is entertaining him, she is literally contributing toward him disrespecting me (especially if he knows she is with me). And a man that lives by a code of Respect...a man in which his values revolve around self-respect...this kind of behavior will lead to deterioration and ending of the relationship.

Not that I disagree with voicing your boundary. I think, in that case, you had to say something. And I think that because I have to wonder WHY she'd mention that guy's calling her to you and telling you what he said in the first place instead of taking care of it herself and being done with it and not disturbing your peace with this third party's bullsh1t and expressing her helplessness. By accepting his call and not doing anything about it, she was encroaching on your boundaries, which calls for giving fair warning.

Sh_it test. Some women (well most women) very early in a relationship will try to give you a sh_it test to gauge your interest level. I don't play those games...but I realize that's what women do.

I can't blame a guy for having the same good tastes in women that I have and trying for it, even though that does show me his disregard for my relationship. But they're not the ones in a relationship with me. So I would like to see that the person I've chosen to be with me knows what to do and does it. When they don't, they're the ones disrespecting me, not the other man.

I totally agree.

If she has to mention it, I'd like to hear her say something like: "Ugh. The ex called! Says he misses me. I told him in no uncertain terms to stop calling and move on and throw away my number or I'm going to get a restraining order against him. Then I said goodbye and hung up. Hopefully, that should do it."

Hahaha. Incidentally...she had to enventually say something to that effect. Actually, once she learned about my boundaries...she was very good at this kind of things. Very good at stopping men in their tracks. I liked that very much about her. Our relationship did not work at the end, because she eventually became a little too needy and whinny...but that's another story.

 

[The Bat]

Very good at stopping men in their tracks. I liked that very much about her. Our relationship did not work at the end, because she eventually became a little too needy and whinny...but that's another story.

That seems to be the theme with women who are so good at shooting down other guys. They get to the point where they think they "possess" you (hence the shooting down other guys part) and you just need to run from that train wreck. I wasn't exclusive with the woman I'm describing (just a plate...had been seeing her for three months) but she got to the point of "I own you". Maybe we just picked bad apples.