Femininity

SW15

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giving woman....They can end up divorced if the husband was selfish, didn't realize what he has & cheats (for example). My sister is divorcing in such a situation after a 27 year marriage. She took the vows very seriously, he thought he could make exceptions to them as he pleased. She found out (unsurprisingly) and is divorcing him on principle. So she will be on the market once the divorce is final & she has had time to adjust. She has no idea what a shjt show dating is, she is not shallow or materialistic, etc. She also doesn't color her hair or do her nails or wear makeup. She never did those things (only for game day as a college cheerleader).

I think she is in for a shock when she starts dating. She is not going to be a sex right away or sex in 3 dates woman either. I'm curious how it will go for her. She was the classic feminine archetype as a young woman.

I'm not sure the average guy in singledom is going to have the patience required to build a relationship with my sister. I worry most will bolt when they find out she's not going to jump into bed right away. I hope I'm wrong.
I think your sister is going to have a rough time adjusting to dating in the 2020s. She is coming out of a 27 year marriage and likely the same relationship for 29-30 years. The fact that she hasn't dated since the mid-1990s is going to be a massive adjustment. Also, in the mid-1990s when she last dated, she was either a college cheerleader or a newly graduated college cheerleader. Now, she'll be dating as a roughly 50-52 year old likely with 2 adult children.

Dating is a far bigger shiit show than it was in the mid-1990s.

If she can primarily date men from real world interactions, then that's her best option. This depends on the strength of her social circle. If she's lived in the same city for the past 30 years, that will help with her social circle.

There are plenty of betas who are 50-65 who would be interested in an LTR with your sister. In the case that something works out longer term, it will be somewhat messier with her having grown children and him likely having grown children. The 2 sets of grown children will likely resent the parent's new relationship and spending time around a parent's new romantic partner and adult children from past relationships. They might begrudgingly tolerate it (better case scenario) but some grown children can be hostile. Family holiday gatherings will be perpetually uncomfortable.

I am more optimistic about the average 50s-60s single guy than you are. They aren't that sex obsessed as hormone levels have dropped.

It would be advisable for her to start coloring her hair and wearing more makeup.
 

Dr.Suave

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I worry most will bolt when they find out she's not going to jump into bed right away. I hope I'm wrong.
I cant say that I blame them. They will think she is playing them
 
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Interesting article on feminine energy/nature.

To me, femininity is a woman's "essence," how she carries herself (like a lady), her look (soft), her style (classy/not trashy), her voice (soft-spoken), her poise, how she reacts to others and the world. Her inner beauty and being. Her softness. Her kindness.

She doesn't necessarily have to be religious or cook well, want children or stay at home.

Plenty of loud, abrasive, dominant, overbearing 'masculine' women who want that too.

Anyway here's the article, which is in line with my thinking and how I define femininity.

 
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BadBoy89

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If you were to tell a guy to seek a feminine woman and he asked, where do I find such a thing, and what does that look like....What would you tell him?

Do they fall into certain careers? What are the markers you look for?
Any women under 30, 0 divorces and 0 kids.

She can be a bit of a floozy, that’s ok, society doesn't mind that. But she has to be in her 20s and never committed legally or been pregnant.

If she hits 30, nature hits her but she can still be a little feminine if she has 0 kids. Society will accept a divorce, but 0 kids. The kids kills her femininity like nothing else.
 

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Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

pipeman84

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Anyway here's the article, which is in line with my thinking and how I define femininity.

Did you look up the author? Woman of +40yrs old making money selling woo woo BS manifestation courses is as qualified to talk about femininity as the Talibans are to speak about women's rights.
http://instagr.am/p/Cyi13fCsd6v/ From the above linked IG post:
I was DONE being in relationships where I didn’t feel fully claimed and chosen.⁠
⁠I was in my 40s and it was TIME.⁠
Translation: I was done being a hoe for +20 years, now let me write about femininity. :D
 

BeExcellent

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At @Dr.Suave and @SW15 I agree. Her kids are younger (16 and 12) because my brother in law really didn't want kids and put it off as long as possible within the marriage. My sister was always very clear about her desire to be a mother & she was going to leave him when they were college sweethearts over the issue. He didn't want to lose THE COLLEGE CHEERLEADER so he lied and said he wanted kids after all, but he didn't really.

So her kids are young and she will be in her 60s before they are both in their 20s.

Most men will not put up with someone else's teenagers in the home unless the woman really is attractive & brings a tremendous amount to the table (which my sister is a great woman but she's plain looking now alongside other women who prioritize and understand the importance of appearance.)

My teen daughter lives with my childless second husband and I but I was the exception in myriad ways.

I am hoping the opportunity arises for me to be frank about what men expect these days and how she needs to spruce up in the appearance department. She still has a great smile, beautiful skin, and healthy hair. There is a positive brightness about her. She is active (skis every other weekend), and poised. She could stand to lose 25 lbs. but she isn't that far off, BUT the children at home will be a turn off and everything will need to be on point.

Shes in the Pacific NW so its a bit more "granola" than many other places but the best men will have the most options. She has a robust social circle and lives in an exclusive historic area with a popular bakery/cafe a block from her home. She perhaps should get a cup of coffee over there & put herself in a target rich environment at times but until the divorce is final she's not looking at all.

She's in for a shock in a number of ways. I think she'll reach out when she starts that journey. Hopefully I can help her find her way. We shall see.
 
M

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Did you look up the author?
No I did not look up the author and don't care. The article resonated with me, that's all.

If it didn't for you and you want to trash the author, that's perfectly fine, no skin off my nose mate. :D
 
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SW15

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She's in for a shock in a number of ways. I think she'll reach out when she starts that journey. Hopefully I can help her find her way. We shall see.
I am hoping the opportunity arises for me to be frank about what men expect these days and how she needs to spruce up in the appearance department. She still has a great smile, beautiful skin, and healthy hair. There is a positive brightness about her. She is active (skis every other weekend), and poised. She could stand to lose 25 lbs. but she isn't that far off, BUT the children at home will be a turn off and everything will need to be on point.
It would be beneficial for her to have a discussion with you about dating in the 2010s-2020s. Her experience of dating in the mid-1990s is outdated. She's changed a lot and the overall market has shifted. It will be a difficult adjustment. It will be more difficult than I first imagined it would be because her children are not 18+. That's her biggest disadvantage right now and the thing that will make the experience the most difficult. The market isn't kind to women in her age range whose children are not legal adults and independent. I'll get into that more below.

I am able to understand why you bring her up as someone who has a good degree of innate, traditional femininity. She was not a high notch count woman. She took her marriage vows seriously. The most glaring behavioral error was not realizing that her boyfriend/husband was not really into having kids as much as she was. The ideal time for her to leave him would have been in senior year of college or very shortly into the marriage as a childless woman. A childless divorcee in her 20s doesn't take that much of a hit in the sexual marketplace in terms of her overall value.

Right now, there are some points she has going for her. The positive brightness and the femininity have some value. Losing 25 pounds is a must and that's not too easy to do.

her kids are young and she will be in her 60s before they are both in their 20s.

Most men will not put up with someone else's teenagers in the home unless the woman really is attractive & brings a tremendous amount to the table (which my sister is a great woman but she's plain looking now alongside other women who prioritize and understand the importance of appearance.)
I have long believed that "The Wall" is softer than many in the Manosphere think that it is.

There are plenty of examples of women in 35-65 generating a lot of interest from men on the open market. Most of the time, this massive amount of interest is as a result of using a swipe app or online dating website. The typical 35+ woman isn't getting approached regularly in person and her day-to-day routines are not conducive to getting approached in real life. A lot of 35+ women dont like to hear that they'd have to alter their day-to-day routines to meet more men organically. They would rather waste time fielding virtual approaches behind an electronic screen.

Your sister would interact with the most men behind an electronic screen but that's probably not best for her. That's also going to result in a loss of positive brightness. Her best bet for reducing mental anguish is focusing on meeting men that will be a quality fit for her rather than quantity. On a swipe app, dating website, or social media platform, there will be plenty of thirsty betas in their 50s/60s who will be interested in her.

Even though she can get quantity, these thirsty betas have a limit. A lot of these 50+ men will be divorced men whose children are already independent. These betas have no desire to put up with someone else's teenagers unless everything else is on point. You and I agree with that. That's not even mentioning possible alpha and sigma males. The most desired women between 45-59 are women with independent, adult children or women who are childless. Even to a beta, it's a tough sell to start a new relationship with a 50+ woman with children many years away from independent adulthood.

Her kids are younger (16 and 12) because my brother in law really didn't want kids and put it off as long as possible within the marriage. My sister was always very clear about her desire to be a mother & she was going to leave him when they were college sweethearts over the issue. He didn't want to lose THE COLLEGE CHEERLEADER so he lied and said he wanted kids after all, but he didn't really.
This is a complicated issue. I am able to identify with the way your brother in law has perceived having children. At the same time, I don't think he handled that issue well and I also don't think your sister handled it well.

The ideal length of this relationship would have been something like 1-5 years, with or without a marriage. It would have been better without the marriage. Instead, what happened was a 27 year long marriage and around 29-30 years of total relationship time. A lot of time was wasted. I think both partners would have liked to have had 25 years back where they could have had more freedom to pursue partners that would have been a better longer term fit. In considering the relationship as a whole, they had longevity but that longevity wasn't quality longevity.

I observe a bit of scarcity mentality in not wanting to lose THE COLLEGE CHEERLEADER. I have had sex and relationships with attractive women that are the same type of women that would have been college cheerleaders. I have enjoyed the sex and the relationships. I want to be in situations where relationships benefit both sides. For the longest time, I doubt that was the case for your sister and that's why it eventually ended.

While I never ruled out having children, I was never motivated to have them either. Since turning 35, I've wanted them even less than when I was 18-34. I have tended to have longer term relationships with women who were also ambivalent about children or did not want them. I don't often state my viewpoint on children. In my 20s, it was easy to have relationships with women in their 20s who weren't in any rush to have children. My point of view was never an issue and things ended before children could become an issue. In my 30s and now into my 40s, it has been more of a issue, but a minor one. If a woman really wants children and she's 30+, I'm not going to waste her time. It's better for me to date someone closer to my own age who is ambivalent/doesn't want any or someone under 30 who sees having children as a long way off. If the interaction is a casual sex/situationship interaction, the topic of children isn't really discussed. I don't know about her desires for children and she doesn't know mine.

The men who actually have it the worst in the mating environment are the ones who are open about not wanting kids and/or have a vasectomy already. Stating a desire to not want kids often costs men sexual options and having a vasectomy also does as well. Even if a 20s/30s woman doesn't want kids in the near term, she's often not going to want to get sexual with a man that can't give her kids at some point in the future.

Shes in the Pacific NW so its a bit more "granola" than many other places but the best men will have the most options. She has a robust social circle and lives in an exclusive historic area with a popular bakery/cafe a block from her home. She perhaps should get a cup of coffee over there & put herself in a target rich environment at times but until the divorce is final she's not looking at all.
The robust social circle is going to help her when she's ready to date. She might get approached at that bakery/cafe, she might not. It would be best her to get introductions through her circle. I doubt she's going to be excited to go to bars. Meetup.com events are somewhat effective for older people seeking other older people but generally useless in younger age groups.
 

SW15

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If you were to tell a guy to seek a feminine woman and he asked, where do I find such a thing, and what does that look like....What would you tell him?

Do they fall into certain careers? What are the markers you look for?

What are your experiences?

Is the desire to have children a marker of femininity?
I think a large desire to have children is feminine. I think a woman who isn't obsessed with a white collar corporate career is more feminine.

One marker that a woman is not going to value her femininity is the presence of some sort of advanced degree. Women with an advanced degree are far more likely to possess feminist and careerist traits. When a woman gets an advanced degree, she has to become careerist to pay off the debt accumulated for the advanced degree and turn a positive return on investment in terms of salary growth over time for pursuing that degree. That's likely going to force her to lean into her career more.

A woman with solely a bachelor's degree may or may not value her femininity and may or may not be career oriented. With women with only a bachelor's degree, it's important to pay attention to where she went to school, how much debt she has, and try to observe her level of ambition. The more feminine women with bachelor's degree's tended to get them from in-state, inexpensive public schools and aren't pursuing a big time white collar career or eventual graduate school.

Women without bachelor's degrees or higher would be the most feminine but some have too little ambition and offer nothing. When looking at women without a bachelor's degree, it's best to see a useful trade certification that keeps them out of the worst McJobs. Some useful certifications are usually in the medical area (medical assistant, dental hygienist, some nurses), paralegals, and personal trainer certifications. Women working in lower wage areas can be good, feminine options, but a lot end up making bad decisions with their lives, including early pregnancy from a sketch baby daddy.
 

Hamurabimbi

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The downside of feminine women is they are often truly ‘damsels in distress’. So you have to be Conan or Indiana Jones all the time. As an example, we were 4WD in the Colorado Desert in CA recently. We had some trouble with the traction & route finding. She was near panicky. Which meant I had to calm her, myself & find a solution.
We went to the ocean, I had to carry her piggyback style to some offshore rocks so she wouldn’t get all wet (fortunately she weighs about 115 Lbs.).
I had a previous GF who shot and rode motorcycles and could give me a solid run for my money drinking. Think Karen Allen’s character in the first Indiana Jones.
 

BeExcellent

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The robust social circle is going to help her when she's ready to date. She might get approached at that bakery/cafe, she might not. It would be best her to get introductions through her circle. I doubt she's going to be excited to go to bars. Meetup.com events are somewhat effective for older people seeking other older people but generally useless in younger age groups.
Appreciate your view.

She never was a bar or nightclub girl. Ever. She does not drink and never has. She mer her husband in a biology class years ago.

Adding further to things is that my brother in law is very good looking, very trim & fit & athletic. He's only 5'8" or so but he remains very handsome, very fit and now makes about 450K. He's considered a catch & a top tier guy. He went on a moutain biking Meetup about a year ago and met the single mom he is now dating. He thought he deserved an upgrade (and a girl who keeps up her looks.)

So my sister is in for a cold splash of water to her face. She has always had this pious attitude and sneered at me for getting nails done, the occassional botox and the occassional hair highlights. What I consider routine maintanence she looks down on as "having work done." Oh boy.

She is going to learn the hard way that she might be invisible. I don't want to see her jaded, but the type men she will want are going to want a woman who maintains herself.

Perhaps she can meet someone skiing. That is an upper crust sport that requires means to be serious about....but if she won't tweak the looks thing she's not going to like her choices. I hope we chat about it. I really do.

She is otherwise the epitome of feminine and has all the character traits a man would be wise to value. But she is likely to get overlooked by men she fancies. They will select flashier models.

She's kinda square honestly.
 
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CountSuavula

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That artificial alterations of Botox and hair highlights are not fooling me. They are fake and phony. We know what you all look like waking up. And most hair highlights are so cringe. Yuck

There is nothing wrong with all natural Plain Girls. If they remain slim and petite or otherwise sexy most guys will stick around for that.
 

Black Widow Void

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Man, I think that you're on to something, @The Duke

I've always considered myself a master at connecting the dots and correlating, but this observation slipped by me.

Looking back, I have to agree. It's not that motherless women I've dated were "butch" or "tom-boy" ... but there was indeed a certain lacking in the femininity department. The plus side to these women was less headaches (more logical, less mood swings, less drama etc...) . At least half would try fill their void with me (more eager to prepare good home-cooked meals, ironing my clothes etc...). The girlie girls will usually do this too, but not as eagerly. However given the choice, I also prefer women more on the feminine side.
 

BeExcellent

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That artificial alterations of Botox and hair highlights are not fooling me. They are fake and phony. We know what you all look like waking up. And most hair highlights are so cringe. Yuck

There is nothing wrong with all natural Plain Girls. If they remain slim and petite or otherwise sexy most guys will stick around for that.
Well make up and Spanx and push up bras are not real either are they? I don't need Spanx or a push up bra (God help the women with breast implants and hair extensions, lol).

So a light highlight at the salon twice a year to emphasize the brightness of the locks from my youth and a little wrinkle & migraine prevention is an enhancement and as I said maintenance.

I suppose we should all just stop working out too...it's sooooo fake. Orthodontics are fake too right? No braces to straighten your teeth! Your grandmother should stop going to the beauty parlor.

Why don't we all wear burlap bags & call it good. Right. I didn't think so.....

Let's not be ridiculous.
 

Millard Fillmore

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The more women I've dated / older I've gotten the more I realize it's all mating strategy.

A "feminine" woman (this is in the eye of the beholder) is just consciously or subconsciously employing a strategy. Same with the strong independent type, the slvt, the innocent, the geek, the seductress, the funny girl, etc. Our egos are stroked when we seduce our "type" (it can be said, our type seduces us).

Yes it's based on personality and disposition but these things can be changed with effort. Life is performative and women position themselves as different types. Men do this too. You can't have all the same. It is as Shakespeare said, all the world's a stage and each must play a part.
 

The Duke

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Man, I think that you're on to something, @The Duke

I've always considered myself a master at connecting the dots and correlating, but this observation slipped by me.

Looking back, I have to agree. It's not that motherless women I've dated were "butch" or "tom-boy" ... but there was indeed a certain lacking in the femininity department. The plus side to these women was less headaches (more logical, less mood swings, less drama etc...) . At least half would try fill their void with me (more eager to prepare good home-cooked meals, ironing my clothes etc...). The girlie girls will usually do this too, but not as eagerly. However given the choice, I also prefer women more on the feminine side.
Exactly what I have experienced as well in regards to their level of being logical/dramatic.
 

The Duke

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The more women I've dated / older I've gotten the more I realize it's all mating strategy.

A "feminine" woman (this is in the eye of the beholder) is just consciously or subconsciously employing a strategy. Same with the strong independent type, the slvt, the innocent, the geek, the seductress, the funny girl, etc. Our egos are stroked when we seduce our "type" (it can be said, our type seduces us).

Yes it's based on personality and disposition but these things can be changed with effort. Life is performative and women position themselves as different types. Men do this too. You can't have all the same. It is as Shakespeare said, all the world's a stage and each must play a part.
Sure its strategy, but you can't keep an act up forever. Its about her "natural" state, whatever that may be. Its what she reverts back to over time.
 

CountSuavula

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Well make up and Spanx and push up bras are not real either are they? I don't need Spanx or a push up bra (God help the women with breast implants and hair extensions, lol).

So a light highlight at the salon twice a year to emphasize the brightness of the locks from my youth and a little wrinkle & migraine prevention is an enhancement and as I said maintenance.

I suppose we should all just stop working out too...it's sooooo fake. Orthodontics are fake too right? No braces to straighten your teeth! Your grandmother should stop going to the beauty parlor.

Why don't we all wear burlap bags & call it good. Right. I didn't think so.....

Let's not be ridiculous.
Just being honest, hair coloring is usually noticeably fake to me. Especially with streaks in the hair.

In my opinion a beautiful woman’s hair is long, healthy, clean, well balanced and properly moisturized. Naturally as possible. It is done by diet and other mindful health activities but not with that many chemicals.

Of course I tend to like your posts but I have different opinions. I like your avatar photo but in my opinion you probably look better not all dolled up like that, and not in a fame style photo shoot. It’s not as hot as you think.

How about the same clothes but doing The Girl Next Door look? I think that’s what most men actually like: the hottie next door who looks more natural. More relaxed. Less unrealistic. More obtainable.

I live around tons of women and fashion When a woman is made up too much and acting famously, I can tell which ones are accustomed to high luxuries, clothes and accessories that are really just for very affluent.

So to dress glamorous or to sort of overdo it in too many ways, sorry to say it is not congruent. In many ways dressing more glamorous than it fits you it’s easy to repel men, including guys from affluent backgrounds. They can probably spot the difference faster than I can.

I am not rich but I can see the real thing from a mile away.
 

BeExcellent

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Just being honest, hair coloring is usually noticeably fake to me. Especially with streaks in the hair.

In my opinion a beautiful woman’s hair is long, healthy, clean, well balanced and properly moisturized. Naturally as possible. It is done by diet and other mindful health activities but not with that many chemicals.

Of course I tend to like your posts but I have different opinions. I like your avatar photo but in my opinion you probably look better not all dolled up like that, and not in a fame style photo shoot. It’s not as hot as you think.

How about the same clothes but doing The Girl Next Door look? I think that’s what most men actually like: the hottie next door who looks more natural. More relaxed. Less unrealistic. More obtainable.

I live around tons of women and fashion When a woman is made up too much and acting famously, I can tell which ones are accustomed to high luxuries, clothes and accessories that are really just for very affluent.

So to dress glamorous or to sort of overdo it in too many ways, sorry to say it is not congruent. In many ways dressing more glamorous than it fits you it’s easy to repel men, including guys from affluent backgrounds. They can probably spot the difference faster than I can.

I am not rich but I can see the real thing from a mile away.
Why do you think your opinion matters? Do you routinely go about critiquing other men's wives about how they should look and dress in random public places?

Opinions are like ass holes darling. Everyone has one. Yours does not matter to me.

I find it so stunningly ridiculous as to find it amusing.

Reserve your opinion for your woman (or women).

That is, of course, my real hair. I get about 10 light highlights to frame my face, and in summer I don't need them as much due to lightening by the sun. My hair is long nearly to my waist, very thick, soft & healthy and I do not use heat appliances on it. Ever. I do not own heat appliances other than a blow dryer and I use that only enough to get the strands around my face to lie correctly as I have cowlicks over each temple otherwise, which I'm not crazy about.

The outfit is one I routinely wear, my hair is straight as I routinely wear it, and the jewelry and heels are things I've had and worn for a long time.

If you think a plain white top with a modest neckline & white jeans with embroidery is too fancy and over done? Sheesh. I'd hate to see what you think casual is. I'm a girl who wears heels almost every day. That is a casual look for me. A bit more makeup for the camera, sure. But surely if you understand fashion & photography then you are well aware natural blondes can look washed out in a professional shoot. Fair skin, blonde hair, blonde eyebrows, blonde eye lashes etc. A dentist I dated in NYC loved when I'd go out with him in just mascara and lip gloss. He thought I looked as good as any fashion model (and he had dated several).

So that photo is my avatar because it's accurate. Its what I look like on a normal day.

I honestly don't care if its not your taste. I'm not here to impress you individually but I have that as an avatar because its accurate & also so people can see for themselves that I am, in fact, as I represent myself. It is also a photo that isn't elsewhere on the internet. I wish to accurately represent what I look like for credibility but I also wish to preserve privacy.

I think thats reasonable.

The photo is also entirely unfiltered. Again for accuracy.

My husband thinks I look incredible. He loves my style & heels & how I dress, how heads turn when I enter a room, how I walk, etc. And his opinion is the only one that counts at the end of the day.

Cheers
 
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