Female Friends

[scrouds]

We tend to do what we want done to us. We tend to see in others what we want ourselves. This is what I like to call the mirror fallacy.

For example if we want someone to be nice to us, we try and be nice to them. If we want people to hold the door open for us when we’re a few steps behind, we will do the same for others. You will see this in people that like you. They will mirror your actions, even drinking from their glass at the same time you do.

One of the bigger problems happens because we set up expectations. So called “pay it forward.” When the other person doesn’t reciprocate, we get pissed. We think they should do something. You’ll see this idea embodied in oral sex a lot. A guy will go down on a girl so that she reciprocates.


In this case, we project our male friendship model onto women, and wonder why they don’t measure up as friends. We then say they can never be friends. We actually are expecting them to act like us. And in that sense, no, women and men cannot be friends.

The AFC is actually the same thing coming from the other side. A woman treats him like a female friend, giving him attentions that he then misinterprets as interest and grows attached. She doesn’t treat him like a male friend would, so he doesn’t see her actions as friendship.

These 2 cases are male centric. There is of course the opposite side to both situations. I feel those still need to be explored. Then role reversal can be added to make a more complicated model. To take Str8up’s post, he’s playing with a goal that is different then the normal model of the female friendship. But it requires playing by the female friendship rules, not the male.

 

[Colossus]

I don't see how it's possible to have a platonic friendship with a woman you find, not even attractive, but simply f-ckable. Do you some how turn off your hormones when she bends over in front of you? If you're a guy (straight) you're going to look, and you're going to be sexually curious. It will also color the relationship you have with them even if you're not conscious of it.

I've had great conversations with women whom I didn't even think about having sex with, I was genuinely interested in the discussion and their point of view. The main reason I could relate to them was because they were either lesbian (on the butch side) or masculine in appearance and/or thought process. Feminine women don't think like men, nor do they care to understand why.

I'll admit that if I'm engaging in conversation with a woman I'm trying to have sex with, or already am, I pretend I care about what they're saying. I do it to the point where I've almost convinced myself I care, but I know in the back of my mind what the true motivation is.

Refreshing honesty.

I totally agree, I know I do it. Half the time I am thinking about something totally unrelated to what she is saying, just saying "yeah" and "really?" periodically. And to an extent I think they do it as well. When I talk to my gf about strongman or weight training, I am genuinely excited about what I'm telling her and it shows. But I know damn well she doesn't give a hoot about that stuff, she is more engaged my own excitement and how I tell the story.

If a girl is really into you, the subject doesnt matter. It's YOU and your emotions she is interested in. You could be talking about World's Strongest Man or stamp collecting, she just likes to see your eyes light up when you talk about your passions.


Also, I have never had a truly platonic friendship with a girl I found fvckable. No doubt most of them desired me in some way, but that's kind of the glue that kept the early friendship together. Later on you become buds and just enjoy hanging out.

 

[Tazman]

We tend to do what we want done to us. We tend to see in others what we want ourselves. This is what I like to call the mirror fallacy.

For example if we want someone to be nice to us, we try and be nice to them. If we want people to hold the door open for us when we’re a few steps behind, we will do the same for others. You will see this in people that like you. They will mirror your actions, even drinking from their glass at the same time you do.

One of the bigger problems happens because we set up expectations. So called “pay it forward.” When the other person doesn’t reciprocate, we get pissed. We think they should do something. You’ll see this idea embodied in oral sex a lot. A guy will go down on a girl so that she reciprocates.


In this case, we project our male friendship model onto women, and wonder why they don’t measure up as friends. We then say they can never be friends. We actually are expecting them to act like us. And in that sense, no, women and men cannot be friends.

The AFC is actually the same thing coming from the other side. A woman treats him like a female friend, giving him attentions that he then misinterprets as interest and grows attached. She doesn’t treat him like a male friend would, so he doesn’t see her actions as friendship.

These 2 cases are male centric. There is of course the opposite side to both situations. I feel those still need to be explored. Then role reversal can be added to make a more complicated model. To take Str8up’s post, he’s playing with a goal that is different then the normal model of the female friendship. But it requires playing by the female friendship rules, not the male.

This is good, I actually read it a couple times because it definitely makes sense. I consider "friends" as the people I enjoy having "platonic" relationships with that reflect more of a masculine point of view on various things. I just flat out have no interests in the things women find interesting as a whole. There are always going to be some commonalities, but most times women are a bore unless you've got a goal in mind when interacting with them.

Also, I have never had a truly platonic friendship with a girl I found fvckable. No doubt most of them desired me in some way, but that's kind of the glue that kept the early friendship together. Later on you become buds and just enjoy hanging out.

In order for me to become buds with a woman on a platonic level I'd have to be castrated, seriously. It's not that I can't control myself, but the only reason I'd hang out with a woman outside my family would be because she's easy on the eyes, atleast enough for some sort of "accident" that might coincidentally happen because we both got a little "carried away". I just can't turn it off, unless she's unattractive, but then I wouldn't be motivated to hang out with her in the first place.

 

[backbreaker]

Here is a classic quote which I often use when faced with this discussion:



I found the above quote to be true for most women I dealt with.

Backbreaker even though you are enjoying being chummy with her now, it probably won't last in the long haul. Which is why you only have 1 girl you consider a 'true friend' and why until now all the girls in the past you did consider 'close female friends without fvcking' aren't really around anymore.

Who knows maybe she is that 1%.

I got it!

know what i"m trying to say now.

every post I've read in this thread, and the general theme of this site dealig with femae friends, is we hold the stanard of female friends higher than we would for male friends.

YOu just said it we are friends now but it probably won't last in the long haul

****, of my MALE friends, when I was 18, I dont have any of them now. So using the logic above, i should not talk to males becuase although we are firends nw, it won't last in the ong haul?

hell no. She's my friend now. if she's not my firend tomororw, damnit she's not y friend tomorrow.

If you are fvcking someone and just because you are fvcking them today, the fact that you might not fvck them tomrrow does not stop you from trying to establish a relatioship

we hold the standard of female frinds to tis high unrealistic standard that none of our other healthy relationships are held to.

Is she attracted to me? I'm sure if i were talking to her i could get her to go out on a date with m, but I am pretty sure i'm no her type. we talk about fvcking other people around each oher like i were talking to you guys here, it does nothing for neither of us, I preseume.

even if she became attracted to me, that just means our relatioship changed and I would have to move on. that does not mean not try to make the best of what's there now. that's silly IMHO.

I'm not defending myself. i is what it is, and i'm quite happy with all the relationships I have in my life. I just think you are really selling youself short by cutting off an entire sex just beuase. assuming your motives are in order, wich mine in this rare instance, are.

star8up hit the nail ont he head. if I do not want to **** her, why the hell am I going out of my way NOT to be a friend if she would make a good one. as long as my m otives are in order and i'm not lying to myself I don't see the issue.

hell in fact the more i look at her the more i really don't want to **** her.. she's cute but she's not THAT cute. she' doable.

 

[zekko]

we hold the standard of female frinds to tis high unrealistic standard that none of our other healthy relationships are held to.

You make some good points. If it's working out for you and your lady doesn't care, great for you. I had some female friends when I was your age, although I wasn't in a LTR at the time. If a guy is comfortable with his girlfriend or wife having male friends, then it's only he fair he can have female friends, and vice versa.

I know there are two sides to this argument. However, for myself, I don't think it's a good idea. Just because you are on the up and up doesn't mean eveyone is. I've seen too many cases where this whole "friendship" thing gets abused, and the trusting spouse or whoever gets screwed over. There is a current situation close to me where three different marriages are being damaged over just such a "friendship".

 

[backbreaker]

Hmmm I'm on the fence with this one.... the girls that my gf called friends were cool with me when we were all hanging out but given the chance any one of them would have fvcked me at a pin drop. My GF was aware of this aswell, suffice to say their friendships only last when I'm not around.

Now talking about having chicks as friends??? I don't know why you'd want to? The only women friends I have are pushing 60+.. they are out of the game completely. My girlfriend had a male friend she met also who was 75+ up until a few weeks ago when he gave her a book of pornographic poetry... that was the end of that. Can men and women really be friends... I would say, only if there is no way in hell you are going to end up in any shape or form falling in love.

Brothers, Sisters, Mothers and Fathers.... good for friends. Dogs and Cats and Robots too

Girls as friends... boring... can you really explain to a girl your intense love of the m1a1 pulse rifle... or the super cool action sequence from the latest movie... or playing the latest game... I mean really? And if she is... then I would look at her like a dysfunctional girl. I don't really understand your motivation for keeping a relationship up with a girl 'friend' anyway... seems like alot of work for a little ROI.

that's a pretty shallow view of women.

Let me ask you a better quesiton. whatis my motiviation for NOT keeping her as friend.. beucase she's doing a very good job so far.

1. we dont' want to **** each other. that's been pretty well established
2. We have a ****load in common
3. She's there when I need her, and visa versa
4. My GF loves her to death

the fact that my GF has no probelm with her should tell you everything you need to know there. women know when women want to **** other men.

My only real motiviation for losing her as a friend would be becuase sosuave says it's worng.. and that's just plain silly, when she has done nothing wrong, and it's not like I have to maintence her.

the problem i see is that some of you think that just beucase she's a woman, the relationship requires more mintenence and upkeep as any other relationship, just beucase she has a **** and not a ****. if i had to treat her any differently than I do any other friend, she would not be a friend. come on guys, it's not that hard.

 

[Stagger Lee]

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but about the only time a female makes a good friend is if she has an interest in hooking up with you.

 

[Julian]

every girl ive been friends with ends up trying to fukk me. I just cant have a friendship with a female, it always turns into something more.Maybe its not possible for me to give out that "friend" vibe...i dunno..im a private person and dont let people into my life easily. My FRIENDS are guys ive known for years and i dont even live near any of them yet I still consider them my best friends.

Ive never been able to keep a female friend. The friendship turns to flirting turns to attraction turns to sex. Its the inevitable cycle. I cant be friends with an ugly broad either maybe thats another reason. If a female enters my life on the basis of friendship im fine with that, but I know for a fact it will always end up being more no matter what.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Once again, and almost on cue I should add, the Onion gets it right:

http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/but_if_we_started_dating_it

 

[zekko]

. My girlfriend had a male friend she met also who was 75+ up until a few weeks ago when he gave her a book of pornographic poetry... that was the end of that.

Lol, see, maybe there is something to the idea that one of the two are always attracted.

I cant be friends with an ugly broad either maybe thats another reason. If a female enters my life on the basis of friendship im fine with that, but I know for a fact it will always end up being more no matter what.

I kind of feel that way too. If I'm going to be friends with a female, I'd like her to look good on my arm. But then that pushes things into the beyond friendship area, doesn't it? I've had female friends who were not very good looking, but it turned out they were attracted to me.

Anyway, here's another danger with the opposite sex friend (if you're married, or in a LTR). Let's say the friendship really IS on the level and it's all cool and everything. This encourages you to explore other female friendships. And oops, maybe this one ends up being something else, and things don't turn out so okay. It's a little bit like playing with a stick of dynamite.

 

[backbreaker]

Lol, see, maybe there is something to the idea that one of the two are always attracted.


I kind of feel that way too. If I'm going to be friends with a female, I'd like her to look good on my arm. But then that pushes things into the beyond friendship area, doesn't it? I've had female friends who were not very good looking, but it turned out they were attracted to me.

Anyway, here's another danger with the opposite sex friend (if you're married, or in a LTR). Let's say the friendship really IS on the level and it's all cool and everything. This encourages you to explore other female friendships. And oops, maybe this one ends up being something else, and things don't turn out so okay. It's a little bit like playing with a stick of dynamite.

it all goes back to holding womn relaionships to a higher standard than you hold that of your male counterparts.

about what...5 years ago, I was dating a woman and what I thought was my best friend of 12 years, tried to **** wth her behind my back while i was dating her. caught him red handed.

should I not go get male friends beucase I could be playing with a stick of dynamite?

 

[zekko]

it all goes back to holding womn relaionships to a higher standard than you hold that of your male counterparts

Backbreaker, by all means enjoy your friendship if that's what you want to do. No one should do something because people on a forum think they shouldn't.

You make a good point about holding the female relationships to a higher standard. There's always a potential for failure in friendships and that shouldn't be a reason not to have them.

But I still think it's a dangerous practice. Like it or not, there is a different dynamic at play when the opposite sex is involved. If it works for you, great. For me, I'm leery of it. But we are very different ages, like I said when I was your age I had female friends (although I was not in a LTR at the time).
I know I don't want my lady hanging around with a bunch of guy friends, in fact I won't have it. Not that I don't trust her, but I have my territory and I don't like other males sniffing around it. But again, if it works for you and your woman, great. Everybody's different.

 

[Tazman]

Once again, and almost on cue I should add, the Onion gets it right:

http://www.theonion.com/content/opin...rted_dating_it

That was an excellent find, and I'll be damned if it ain't the truth!

I finally convinced a good friend to let go of this broad who would go out to dinner/movies with him but would leave him hanging all the time. When he first told me about her (like 6 years ago) I told him to ask her out, he did, she hit him with an LJBF and that's the way it's been ever since. She would outright flirt with him, like suggesting he wipe something off her ass, etc.

I told him she was a tease and he needs to stop wasting his time. Later he told me he wasn't trying to get into her pants and that they were just "friends". Straight up denial, but you know how that goes....

Recently he finally listened to me and cut her off, but it took 6 f-ckin years to get it through his head...

I think most guys who pursue friendships with attractive (or atleast f-ckable) women "subconsciously" see them as potential place holders, if not something more immediate.

 

[DJDamage]

Once again, and almost on cue I should add, the Onion gets it right:

http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/but_if_we_started_dating_it

Oh man that was hilarious Rollo, I especially enjoyed this part:

No. We are just destined to be really, really good friends who only hang out when I don't have a boyfriend, but still need male attention to boost my fragile and all-consuming ego.

I think I am just going to send this link via email to any future woman who decides to drop the LJBF's line on me.

 

[backbreaker]

um...yeah..about this thread......um..yeah..nevermind.

 

[DJDamage]

um...yeah..about this thread......um..yeah..nevermind.

um.. did something... happen between you and your "lady friend"? are you still (what girls say today) "BFF"?!

 

[backbreaker]

funny sory.. for the longest thought BFF stood for Boy Friend Forever.. my GF texted me one day about a year ago and said she was with her BFF and I when she came home we got into an arguement and she was like what's rong, I told her why i was mad, and she started crying laughing.

learn how to read text code. please.


but yes, something happened to say the least. she went female and i'll just leav it at that.

okay well... she doesn't really work. doesn't have to actually. spoiled rotten and she has a very nice inheritence. enough to drive a new range rover and live in a paid for house.

anyway, her mom has her on allowence and really doesn't give her alot of money, so she would do things for me like take my clothes to the cleaners and check my po boxes and I would throw her 20 bucks here, 20 bucks there... we both win.

So she calls me Sunda night, asks me do I want to go to the meeting on monday morning at 6:30. i say sure. well I didn't know my 2 year old was going to not want to go to sleep and my GF was knocked out so I had to stay up with him.. which was pretty fun actuallyb ut that's not the point. by 3am when i went to sleep came i was knocked out. she doesn't call in the moning, she just stops by the house and when he does I was knocked out and told her there was no wy I can get out of bed.

Oky.... I had some lanundry that needed to e taken to the cleaners as well. so she came back AFTER the meeting to pick up the lanundy.. again.. this is **** i can do but she wants the money so she did it.. and again.. it didn't have to be done at 8am either. regardless.. she takes the lanudry and does about 50 trying to get out of my drive way, visuablly hot at something. I'm like okay.. you need to talk about something?

So she sends me this email, telling me she isn't going to the gym with me and she doesn't want to go to meetings with me now and how I am always asking for her time and she enables me (to do what i don't know)and how i dont' care about her feelings, blah blah blah. where all this sht came froma nd for what i don't know.

the nly thing i could think about is the people here..

i saw her this mornign in group.. i'm always formall... how you doing.. no response. **** it than. i'm not a kd. i tried.

o she goes out of her way to tell everyone how she just got out of this smothering relationship an how she feels so free now and hwo at peace she is.

I'm like yeah.. she just went female

so lesson learned. **** it or duck it.

 

[speed dawg]

I never met a woman, friend or no, of at least reasonable attractiveness, that I didn't want to fvck.

Me either. Everytime I see a just moderately attractive woman, I think about what it would be like to fvck them or how their pvssy would taste. I don't really know if men can have female friends or not, and I don't really care. But I know the only real platonic female friend I could ever have is an ugly fat woman who doesn't register in my head as 'I wonder how her pvssy tastes' when I see her.

But hey that's just me.

I'm friends with lots of girls I guess. But if we were ever alone together I know what I'd be thinking about.

 

[DJDamage]

funny sory.. for the longest thought BFF stood for Boy Friend Forever.. my GF texted me one day about a year ago and said she was with her BFF and I when she came home we got into an arguement and she was like what's rong, I told her why i was mad, and she started crying laughing.

learn how to read text code. please.


but yes, something happened to say the least. she went female and i'll just leav it at that.

okay well... she doesn't really work. doesn't have to actually. spoiled rotten and she has a very nice inheritence. enough to drive a new range rover and live in a paid for house.

anyway, her mom has her on allowence and really doesn't give her alot of money, so she would do things for me like take my clothes to the cleaners and check my po boxes and I would throw her 20 bucks here, 20 bucks there... we both win.

So she calls me Sunda night, asks me do I want to go to the meeting on monday morning at 6:30. i say sure. well I didn't know my 2 year old was going to not want to go to sleep and my GF was knocked out so I had to stay up with him.. which was pretty fun actuallyb ut that's not the point. by 3am when i went to sleep came i was knocked out. she doesn't call in the moning, she just stops by the house and when he does I was knocked out and told her there was no wy I can get out of bed.

Oky.... I had some lanundry that needed to e taken to the cleaners as well. so she came back AFTER the meeting to pick up the lanundy.. again.. this is **** i can do but she wants the money so she did it.. and again.. it didn't have to be done at 8am either. regardless.. she takes the lanudry and does about 50 trying to get out of my drive way, visuablly hot at something. I'm like okay.. you need to talk about something?

So she sends me this email, telling me she isn't going to the gym with me and she doesn't want to go to meetings with me now and how I am always asking for her time and she enables me (to do what i don't know)and how i dont' care about her feelings, blah blah blah. where all this sht came froma nd for what i don't know.

the nly thing i could think about is the people here..

i saw her this mornign in group.. i'm always formall... how you doing.. no response. **** it than. i'm not a kd. i tried.

o she goes out of her way to tell everyone how she just got out of this smothering relationship an how she feels so free now and hwo at peace she is.

I'm like yeah.. she just went female

so lesson learned. **** it or duck it.

Thanks for the feedback bb.

Sorry to hear things did not work out with your female friend. Every time in the past I have tried to be friends with chicks it ended up feeling like you are stuck in a fvcking relationship with them but without the sex and the added drama they like to throw in from time to time, which you need to put up with (they expect you too!) because you are a friend.

The best female friend is the one you fvck with . This way the friendship comes with the relationship but when the relationship's is gone so does the friendship.

 

[zekko]

Sorry things aren't going well, backbreaker.
Maybe Aunt Flo stopped by to visit her?
And/or sounds like maybe she did have feelings for you after all and built up resentment. Sounds like she has some passion coming from somewhere.