Evolutionary Logic

[timerare2]

I've read many times, from gurus and other DJ's, 'Attraction is not logical' and other observations to that effect.

I *beg* to differ.

Attraction makes PERFECT sense-- when you look at it in the right way.

The first realization you must make is that we are living in a highly artificial environment. The modern world is not the world in which humans evolved to live.

Furthermore, all great societies rise and fall, and eventually, the world will take a huge technological leap BACKWORDS.... this is a trend in history, empires rise and fall.

As members of society, we realize that eventually, this society WILL come to an end. The world will be a much more difficult place to live, afterwords.

In our art and our folk-lore, the end of our society is represented as the 'apocalypse'. I don't mean in the biblical sense, I just mean in the sense of a catastrophic, compounding, breakdown of modern society. I don't know how it will happen, when it will happen, or even why it has to happen. I only know, that it WILL happen.

And girls/women do too. It's just a sub-conscious realization. So, when a girl looks at you, she isn't asking herself 'How succesful is this man in modern society?'

She is asking herself 'How well is this man going to do, AFTER the apocalypse?'

And more importantly 'How well are this man's descendants going to do after the apocalypse?'

She wants to know, not whether or not you can survive and prosper in today's society, but whether you can survive, and prosper, under the most extreme of conditions.

The 'Adventurer'. He is attractive. Why? Because he has DEMONSTRATED his ability to survive under extreme conditions.

The very charismatic man will be a good deal maker-- today, or AFTER the apocalypse.

Osama Bin Laden. Look at the man. He would be the MARVEL of the post-apocalyptic world. And you'd be surprised to discover that a lot of women do say, 'well, don't take this the wrong way, but there is something sexy about him.'

Now, after I realized this, I started looking around at the men that I know who are particularly succesful with women. And I realized that they would all THRIVE after the apocalypse. Other men whom I thought might have a fighting chance... they do alright. The men who are hopeless... they don't have any luck.

Rugged. Adventurous. Charismatic. Cunning. Quick. Strong. Able. Capable. Powerful. This man will do well after the apocalypse.

Computer Expert, shy, few friends, 160 pounds, makes $150,000 a year at microsoft.
He is THRIVING (in many respects) in today's artificial environment, but how's he going to do after the apocalypse? Not very well.

Just a handful of thoughts. Attraction makes perfect sense. We just aren't used to looking at it the right way.

Now, how can we use this to our advantage?

We can demonstrate an ability to survive independently, while, at the same time demonstrating a willingness to enter into social contracts and partnerships of mutual benefit. We can demonstrate physical rigor and ability, by engaging in adventurous and physically taxing activities. We can demonstrate a willingness to walk away from a deal if we aren't liking what is happening... a willingness to complain and fight for what we think is fair. To bicker over minor technicalities (not too minor though) and haggle succesfully over prices.
An ability to make friends and form succesful partnerships is good. An entrepeneurial spirit and some initiative never hurt anyone.

Q: What do you like to do?
Bad Answer: Sit at home an watch television. Go to movies.

Good Answer: I like to go on 25 mile hikes through the wilderness, naked, alone, on the coldest night of the year.

Alright, a little more. I'm sure you've had enough already, but...

There is an aspect of human personality which is difficult to quantify. It is the time lapse between when you have a thought, and when you act on that thought. For example, maybe you think 'I should get a new job.'

I hypothesize that the LESS time it takes you, from the moment you are sure about the decision to the moment you act, the more attractive a woman is going to perceive you as.

She says: 'Shelly quit today at work.'
You say: '(Blah blah blah). Speaking of that, I was thinking of going out and getting a new job.' (As you get up and put your coat on.)
She says: 'Where are you going?'
You: 'I just told you I was thinking about getting a new job.'
She: 'Now?!'
You: 'What better time?'

That's better than sitting around for twenty years *****ing about how much your job sucks (and I'm not exagerating, those are realistic extremes... the man who waits 10 seconds and the man who waits 20 years both are friends of mine.). From an attractiveness perspective.

Eh. That's all I've got to say about that, anyone disagree? Comments?

 

[Donjuanpablo]

Interesting Point.

I think that women do have a similar attitude as what you say, but it is more a subconcious effort, hence the inability to pinpoint it. Naturally they may look for these 'post apocolypse' qualities, but I don't think it's anything they dwell on extensively or would talk about, in terms of attraction.

PS. Bin Laden sexy? I wouldn't b too certain

 

[Turbobird]

Damn interesting post! It really make sence!

/Turbobird

 

[MrNasty]

Osama Bin Laden. Look at the man. He would be the MARVEL of the post-apocalyptic world. And you'd be surprised to discover that a lot of women do say, 'well, don't take this the wrong way, but there is something sexy about him.'


maybe you got some interesting point, but oh well i cannot think a single lady that i know who would find that ape or lets say caveman sexy..

 

[timerare2]

Hey, I'm not sayin' it's a good thing, I'm not sayin' it's a bad thing... I'm just sayin'.

Note the subtle, yet very significant difference between what someone FEELS and what someone admits to feeling.

.

Plenty of girls think there is 'something' sexy about him. It's just an issue of getting them to admit it.

I JUST NOW asked a chick on AOL-

" Me: Osama Bin Laden-- Sexy, or not sexy?
Jen: damn sexy
Me: Seriously?
Jen: yeah
Jen: i mean, in a totally psychological way"

I've heard no less than 5 girls say there is 'something' sexy about him. Not his physical appearance, mind you.

 

[raven_82]

Good points. But I think the reason people say 'Attraction is not logical' is because is not logical to your current thinking. You have to understand how they (women) operate and then it all becomes logical to you.

 

[timerare2]

It is like, they are trying to imply that it would 'make more sense' for women to be with a nice guy... and really, no, it wouldn't make sense.

But, really, what sense would it make, in the grand scheme of things, for an evolving organism to select as it's mate a weak person who is only succesful/alive due to the ease of life in modern society?

Girls don't exist to be happy, they exist to exist... and if it is unhappiness that benefits our continued existence, so be it.
And oftentimes it is.

It's basic sense that we don't REALLY *strive* for things to be 100% smooth easy and happy. That's readily apparent in the lack of television shows, movies, books, and plays, out, that have plots along the lines of
'Joe and Steve get together for pool. Everything goes well. Joe says 'See you next week steve'. Goes home. Goes to bed. the end.'

 

[Rebel Leader]

You are right on. That's why it is such a turn-off for me when I find out that a guy can't do household or car repairs, like basic carpentry or changing out an alternator. And it is such a turn-on when I find out that they overhaul their motorcycles themselves.

Actually, the post-apocolypse survival trait was one of my conscious tests for marriage.

 

[Chicken-Hawk]

Very interesting post. However, I think a lot of your conclusions are overly simplistic (no insult intended). What you are engaging in is called context switching; the assumption that psychology or skills that are relevant in one set of circumstances can be directly transferred to a totally different set. It's not true.

I've spent most of my adult life watching people work under extreme pressure. I have training in both urban and rural forms of guerilla warfare, both modern and traditional. Survival training, nuclear, biological and chemical warfare, etc, etc. I've also participated in many of the events you've seen on the news. Lot's of first hand experience in this sort of thing.

Bottom line? The first several months of a post apocalyptic world will be h*ll on earth. Energetic, cunning, active, etc - sheesh, that's EVERYONE when there's limited resources. Looters are generally shot, either by surviving police/paramilitary groups or by other competitors for resources. Not exactly an ideal situation to care for a wife and family. Most self centered "jerks" will not fullfill their commitments. The woman usually ends up holding the bag.

You're going to be hurting if you didn't plan in advance. The trick to surviving this particular type of situation is to be low key and quiet. Again, the name of the game is to survive and you don't do that by engaging in any "energetic" activities, ESPECIALLY with a wife and kids. Believe me, I've watched and I know.

How many men who engage in this type of planning or activities are considered "sexy"? Not many. Most are called alarmists or nuts. However, these types have the greatest probability of surviving and keeping their families intact.

A limited collapse? Same thing, but the people who are in charge now are still in charge afterwards; community/church leaders, politicians, etc. A lot of weirdos running around - but they get dealt with one way or another.

Then there is the Great Man Theory; the people which society needs in a given set of circumstances are always with us. The question is if their psychology is relevant to the situation at hand? Sometimes a person who has the mindset for disaster can spend other periods of history in obscurity. You never know until the "match is lit".

People are never what they seem. Let's take your Microsoft nerd as an example; he has endured a LOT of education and he competes in a ruthless industry. Produce or die. What would happen if that intellect was refocused in another direction? Oh yes, I live very close to these people and they are not to be underestimated. Most of them can do whatever they put their minds to. Their creativity and knowledge of science makes them very useful - or dangerous.

Another example is the greatest (true) warrior I have ever met. He looked like a nerdy college professor. I would have NEVER guessed in a million years! He is still the greatest man I've ever known.

Even myself, I was a pale, skinny kid who looked like a 14 year old boy. I never asked for or WANTED what was thrust upon me. But life doesn't care what a person wants, it sometimes just hands you something and you stand and deliver. I didn't BELONG there and I hated every minute of it. Most people said I couldn't handle it, I just didn't look or act like the type who could.

You never know what a person is REALLY like until the pressure is on. You'll be shocked by what you see when it does happen.

The choices women and men make in comfortable times have unpredicatable results when times are bad.

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Chicken Hawk is right on this one, to a point.

But let me say something here... when you're looking at attraction from an evolutionary standpoint, you're looking in the wrong direction if you're looking to survival in the FUTURE (i.e., events which have not yet happened and may not for some time, if ever).

Evolution is based on the past. It is the sequence of events and adaptations and mutations that make one organism's survival more assured than another. Men and women's "evolutionary attraction" is based on events of the distant and not-so-distant past. Women are attracted to men who have traits that will help them survive in the PRESENT or traits that have helped humans survive in the PAST. Evolutionary attraction is not based on probable future events because no one knows what the next systematic shock to our society will look like. In a world becoming ever more computerized, those who have the best chances for survival in the PRESENT and the near and foreseeable future are those with some technical prowess, while robotics and machinery begin slowly but steadily causing a decline in the necessity of brute strength to do much of anything. The need for killing animals with bare hands for food is all but gone in our society, the need for being able to fight off animals for survival or to brave wilderness and nature, elements and weather to live is no longer a necessity.

Eventually, through a form of Darwinism, the intelligent will have more of a chance to survive and thrive, a trend which has actually been steadily growing for some time.

An event of apocolyptic nature is not assured, despite previous incidents and warnings in religious texts such as the Bible. This is like saying that, in the past, I have broken up with girls, therefore the next girl I date I will break up with. Yes, of course it's possible, but not assured. As society evolves, the civilizations with notable weaknesses die out, while the strong continue in some form or another. For the most part, society has been steadily making positive progress and may continue to do this for millenia to come.

When and IF this apocolyptic event happens, no one knows what it will look like. Will it be a nuclear war, wherein those who survive have a natural resistance to radiation? Will it be a viral outbreak similar to the plague, where biological immunity to disease will determine the survivors? Will it be famine, or lack of water, or an asteroid hitting the earth a la Armageddon? An alien attack a la Independence Day... remember, in that movie, the ones who survived were not only those who were strong (think Will Smith's character) but also those who were smart (i.e. Jeff Goldblum).

The fact that women are attracted to physically strong men capable of surviving harsh conditions is not evidence of a evolutionary viewpoint toward the future, but an evolutionary viewpoint toward the PAST. I hypothesize that future evolutionary viewpoints will make intelligence a key trait for attraction in women.



------------------
CASANOVA

"Always love thy enemies, just in case all your friends turn out to be a bunch of bastards."

"Whenever evil befalls us, we ought to ask ourselves, after the first suffering, how we can turn it into good. So shall we take occasion, from one bitter root, to raise perhaps many flowers."
Leigh Hunt

"Before we set our hearts too much upon anything, let us examine how happy those are who already possess it."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

 

[Chicken-Hawk]

Great posts. Casanova's points are probably the most realistic/probable. In spite of everything, I still think that the man with the highest intelligence and the best heart wins in the end. It's based on what I've actually seen.

Interested in human behavior and relationships during high stress events? Check out a movie called The Trigger Effect (Kyle MacLachlan/Elisabeth Shue).

The relationship between husband and wife is particularly interesting.

 

[SoSuave.com]

Tips forum.

 

[stuartSan]

bump.

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i'd rather die than give you control

 

[Odysseus]

This is plagurism!! I posted a very similar article MONTHS AGO!!! Click here!!
http://www.sosuave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000806.html

What - three replies to that post, MONTHS AGO, October! Three months later somebody realizes this all over again. Not fair!

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

I just followed your link and looked at your post, Ody, but although you have a similar topic I can't see where anyone on this thread said anything that you did that wasn't common knowledge.

Plaigurism is using someone else's work without giving them credit. It's a very serious charge and no one here did that. Your topic is similar, fine. I've only joined this site a couple months ago (well after your topic had taken it's last breath) and only started posting less than a month ago, but I've already seen plenty of topics that were similar.



------------------
CASANOVA

"Always love thy enemies, just in case all your friends turn out to be a bunch of bastards."

"Whenever evil befalls us, we ought to ask ourselves, after the first suffering, how we can turn it into good. So shall we take occasion, from one bitter root, to raise perhaps many flowers."
Leigh Hunt

"Before we set our hearts too much upon anything, let us examine how happy those are who already possess it."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

 

[Odysseus]

awwwww.

actually, even if it was copied word for word, on a public board, it is LEGAL. So there was nothing wrong in what timerare2 did, and yes it is common knowledge once it is on the internet or has been written down - what? - 3 times?

But still, ya know...

 

[WildThang]

Originally posted by Chicken-Hawk:

Very interesting post. However, I think a lot of your conclusions are overly simplistic (no insult intended). What you are engaging in is called context switching; the assumption that psychology or skills that are relevant in one set of circumstances can be directly transferred to a totally different set. It's not true.

Chicken, uh, Hawk, uh, whatever

- you're missing the point.

The point isn't that certain types really would survive an apocalypse better than others. The point is that chicks automatically head for the guys who *they believe* would survive. It's an instinctive thing. It doesn't have to make sense, or match up with reality in any way. All that matters is that that's what they feel and believe.

And there's a lot of truth to it. The best sex I ever had was with a chick who came right out and said 'You'd have no problems if the bomb dropped, would you?'

My house isn't survival central, and I don't have AK47s and six months of beans and diesel stored in my basement. So what she meant was that I was a guy who could cope with a challenge without flinching, wilting, or running home to find my comfort blanket.

And now that I think of it, my last ex said the same when we were talking about Y2K one time.

But it's not a physical thing. It's a combination of grit, persistence, confidence, physical strength and brainpower. If you can *give the impression* that you have those (whether you do or not) then a lot of chicks will get turned on just being around you.

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by WildThang:
Chicken, uh, Hawk, uh, whatever

- you're missing the point.

The point isn't that certain types really would survive an apocalypse better than others. The point is that chicks automatically head for the guys who *they believe* would survive. It's an instinctive thing. It doesn't have to make sense, or match up with reality in any way. All that matters is that that's what they feel and believe.

And there's a lot of truth to it. The best sex I ever had was with a chick who came right out and said 'You'd have no problems if the bomb dropped, would you?'

My house isn't survival central, and I don't have AK47s and six months of beans and diesel stored in my basement. So what she meant was that I was a guy who could cope with a challenge without flinching, wilting, or running home to find my comfort blanket.

And now that I think of it, my last ex said the same when we were talking about Y2K one time.

But it's not a physical thing. It's a combination of grit, persistence, confidence, physical strength and brainpower. If you can *give the impression* that you have those (whether you do or not) then a lot of chicks will get turned on just being around you.

There may be girls out there who actually think about who they want to be with at the Armageddon, but I guarantee it's not a major issue pressing on most girls' minds. And that point certainly has nothing to do with evolution. What ChickenHawk was saying (which I agree with) is that women look to guys who can survive present conditions (with intelligence, charisma, etc.) or guys who could survive past situations. Girls may like guys who can deal with adversity, but most aren't looking at a guy wondering (consciously or subconsciously) if he could survive Armageddon. They just want a guy who could cope with a major change in his job, or their house burning down, or some other personal "crisis." Not necessarily Armageddon. By the way, the end of the world is NOT near.



------------------
CASANOVA

"Always love thy enemies, just in case all your friends turn out to be a bunch of bastards."

"Whenever evil befalls us, we ought to ask ourselves, after the first suffering, how we can turn it into good. So shall we take occasion, from one bitter root, to raise perhaps many flowers."
Leigh Hunt

"Before we set our hearts too much upon anything, let us examine how happy those are who already possess it."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by Odysseus:
awwwww.

actually, even if it was copied word for word, on a public board, it is LEGAL. So there was nothing wrong in what timerare2 did, and yes it is common knowledge once it is on the internet or has been written down - what? - 3 times?

But still, ya know...

I wasn't talking about legalities... I was just talking about honor. If timerare2 had copied your post word for word and tried to pass it off as his own, it would certainly be a big dishonor to him on this board. That wasn't the case. Not only did he not do anything illegal but he didn't do anything dishonorable either.



------------------
CASANOVA

"Always love thy enemies, just in case all your friends turn out to be a bunch of bastards."

"Whenever evil befalls us, we ought to ask ourselves, after the first suffering, how we can turn it into good. So shall we take occasion, from one bitter root, to raise perhaps many flowers."
Leigh Hunt

"Before we set our hearts too much upon anything, let us examine how happy those are who already possess it."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

 

[IntermediateDonJuaner]

This is a nice post here.

But there is one thing I disagree with timerare.

Timerare,
How could you say this statement is logic? "Computer Expert, shy, few friends, 160 pounds, makes $150,000 a year at microsoft.
He is THRIVING (in many respects) in today's artificial environment, but how's he going to do after the apocalypse? Not very well."

What do these people have to do with apocalypse? And btw, what do you actually mean by apocalypse? If these people face problems to survive after the apocalypse, how are they going to help themselves?

Have a nice day!