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[Knockout King]

Re: NTF TKD

I'll address the questions/comments in ascending chronological order

Originally posted by Don Wannabe
I don't know anywhere near as much about martial arts as you, but just thought I'd add my 2 cents. I used to (read: USED TO, it's recently gone to hell) be in the NTF (National Tae Kwon Do Federation) (Canada only) headed by Mr. Wilfred Ho (in Sherwood Park/Edmonton, Alberta) and found that he taught a fair bit of grappling. I've since quit because what he teaches is useless on the street, he doesn't teach any timing or anything against an unwilling target. Just thought I'd say that some of the instructors of the styles you say don't have any grappling, have added some grappling in to compensate. In a usual class we'd do 25 min warmup, 25 min patterns, 30 min technique, 30 min sparring, 10 min grappling. That was a while ago so it may have changed since then, but I imagine other instructors have added/modified to compensate for their art's failings. (just wish he woulda done timing and overcoming someone who's resisting)

Many of today's instructors have wised up and seen how ineffective the traditional style of their art is and modernized it to fit better in today's field, I didn't mention that in my post, I only intended to give you the low down on the styles. Thanks for bringing that up though, I prolly should have said something about it in my post.

Originally posted by livin large
As for Sexual Thing, maybe I could get your input. I've always been athletic but never a fighter. I weight train and cardio, so I'm in pretty good shape. I would like to take up a martial art (just one, at least for now). I'm 6'3, 190. Primarily I want to be able to defend myself, but also I have a lot of jackass friends who like to get in fights, and I'd like to be able to help bail them out. Mostly in bars or places like that. Any suggestions for a MA for me to take up? If I eventually cross-train, what could I cross-train with? Any input would be appreciated.

You mean my post didn't help you decide? Well, I'm gonna go ahead and trust that you read it and honestly couldn't decide over the thought that you're a prick that's too damn lazy to go out of his way to avoid wasting my time

Anywayz, Vale Tudo is the first thing that comes to my mind. It's great for bar fighting, and because of your size it's perfect, and if your style is the rough and tumble type who likes to get in there and rip em to shreds, then vale tudo is great for you.

Since I neglected to mention what you can cross train vale tudo with I'll tell you, but for the others you're gonna have to look in my post

Vale tudo/Bjj is a great combo, an all brazilian feel that's great for the streets and any other scene. That's all I can think of though, because Vale tudo isn't something many people cross train with.

BJJ or Shootfighting are good for any situation, due to your size I think Shootfighting would be an excellent art for you to take up.

Muay Thai would also be good, very effective on the street, in competition, and i would imagine great in bars.

Originally posted by Demon
Has anyone here taken Ninjutsu or Brazilian Jiujitsu? Experiences? Tips?

Hrm. The only Ninjutsu training center is in Tulare, California which around 200 miles away from me. I did find a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu training center which is only 18 miles away. When I have the time, I'll look into it.

Ya, ninjutsu is VERY hard to find in the U.S. but definitely check out the bjj, you won't regret it, trust me (unless the instructors just utterly suck ass ).

Tips? Learn striking. Bjj is amazing on it's own, but with a striking art it's just that much better. I've already been over what you can cross train it with. Even if you train only lightly in the striking art, it will be very beneficial.

Originally posted by Soshyopathe

I'm a shaolin fanatic, I think it's the greatest thing since masturbating, so I'd like to argue a point for it. You said it isn't a great grappling art, but if you've been around any shaolin masters, you know not to get in close, because if you do, it often means paralysis or death. If you are close enough for them to strike or grab a chi point, it's over.

We have 2 of the world's greatest martial artists right here in Lexington Kentucky: Sin Thé and Hiang Thé. I've read Sin's books, and I'd honestly be afraid to get within 20 feet of the guy. He could kill you in one strike with a blindfold on, no hyperbole. If you ever try to shoot in or spear a shaolin master, you wouldn't even get your shoulder to him.

Of course, these guys are the .01% of Kung Fu masters that you brought up. They are absolutely too deadly to compete. Just showing that the art doesn't need a lot of intensive grappling to be effective against grappling.

I remember the old days of no holds barred combat. There were a couple of guys similar to what you described. I heard their descriptions, about how they are capable of killing a man with a single strike or other technique. People that knew anything about them said that they'd sh1t themselves if they were anywhere near them when they were provoked. These were supposed masters of shaolin. Come time for them to fight not only did they get beaten by the skilled grapplers, they got flat out embarrased!

I don't know who the guys you're describing are and I don't know how much better they are than the shaolin fighters I described, but just so you know, it HAS competed and when it did it didn't fare too well against the best fighters.

The greatest shaolin fighters have refrained from competition not because they thought they were too dangerous, but because they didn't want to make a spectacle out of their art.

Originally posted by Demon
I noticed you never mentioned anything about discipline and the things you learn for your mind and conscious.

Discipline is the most important thing to learn in any self-defense art so I'm told my mom. She is a third degree black belt in Judo from the Philippines.

If you have any ideas on inspiring people on a message board with discipline and focus, I'd love to hear them

Thanks for the replies! And sorry about the sig, I didn't realize it until now but it does kinda get in the way.

 

[Soshyopathe]

Well, the TRUE shaolin masters wouldn't compete because it would disgarce them. Any master would disown his own student for competing as well. Shaolin is not for competition.

 

[Knockout King]

Originally posted by Soshyopathe
Well, the TRUE shaolin masters wouldn't compete because it would disgarce them. Any master would disown his own student for competing as well. Shaolin is not for competition.

I'm just saying, to actually be too deadly for competition, the gap b/w the shaolin competitors and the shaolin masters would have to be nearly inconcievable.

 

[Demon]

I found a Ninjitsu training center in California.

Central Valley Ninjutsu
1147 S Blackstone St
Tulare, CA 93274
559-684-9263

Membership Level: Affiliate
Martial Arts Style(s): Ninjutsu

It's 200 miles away from me. Too far.


I found a Brazilian Jie-jitus training center in California.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Fabio
4780 Mission Gorge Pl No. F
San Diego, CA 92120
619-229-0022

Membership Level: Affiliate
Martial Arts Style(s): Jiu-Jitsu

It's only 18 miles away. Like I said, I might go there when I have the time.

 

[GQ]

I have a gym upstairs from where I live. One group of instructors teaches Muay Thai, another teaches BJJ. They are serious fighters, at least the Muay Thair people anyway, whom I know. The top guy competes and wins or places in competions around the world. He invited the BJJ people to join him, to allow complete cross training.

I want your advice on whether you would advise me to train to become a fighter in the schools upstairs. It would be free (I don't complain about the noise, so they have no legal probs with the landlord, unlike with the last tenant in my studio apt).

I am 41 years old. I don't get in fights, and don't avoid them either...I'm just not ever in situations where it comes up. I would take training in Muary Thai and BJJ for the purpose of adding mental discipline to physical training, and to give physical training some purpose other than having nice abs for girls to admire. Why spend all those hours in the gym if there is no practical use to the training?

I am 6'2" and about 185 lbs. I am not natually physically quick and coordinated. Quite inflexible as well. I have had back and neck problems, but these have dissapeared almost completely since I lost 65 lbs over the past 5 years, slowly and steadily with a healthier diet. I have no interest in getting injured, and injuries are common, I have noticed, with the Muay Thai guys.

Can I do it? Or am I too old to train now as a fighter?

 

[GQ]

Actually, it is Brazilian Submission Wrestling they teach upstairs (in addtion to Muay Thai)...don't know if that is the same thing as BJJ.

 

[Demon]

Try it and find out.

 

[livin large]

Sexual thing - yeah, I read your post. Actually read the whole thing! I was just looking for input, since you seem to know your sh*t. Thanks.

 

[Soshyopathe]

Originally posted by Sexual Thing
I'm just saying, to actually be too deadly for competition, the gap b/w the shaolin competitors and the shaolin masters would have to be nearly inconcievable.

And it is. Seriously, you should have your shaolin badge stripped if you even think about competing. These Kung Fu fighters in UFC don't deserve to call their style Shaolin.

 

[Soshyopathe]

Originally posted by GQ

Can I do it? Or am I too old to train now as a fighter?

You got 40 years or so. Make it a reality.

 

[Knockout King]

GQ:

In Abhu Dhabi the world submission wrestling tournament is held and BJJ and brazilian submission wrestling alike perform very well there. I'm pretty sure the two arts are similar.

And muay thai prolly isn't for you, I brazilian submission wrestling will be much better for you.


Soshyopathe:

Sounds like you're pretty serious, but let me just say this much.

Rickson Gracie ranks among the best grapplers to have ever walked the earth, his skill was legendary. He has fought the best fighters from every style of martial art. However, no one considered him too deadly for competition (because he's had well over 400 fights in competition). But if the 2 shaolin fighters you're talking about are too deadly for today's competition then I would like to congratulate them. Sin the and Hiang the are the two greatest fighters in history of the world.

There is no need to go on about how real shaolin fighters would not compete, I've already agreed to that when I responded to you the first time

 

[livin large]

If anybody wants to see some of this stuff in action, there are some good videos on Kazaa.

Here are a few I found that were pretty good:
"throwdown-in-tokyo-town"
"UFC - Hayoto Sakurai"
"UFC - Royce Gracie" - my personal favorite. This guy's awesome.
"UFC Pride19 - Newton vs Pele" - no sound, but good.

There are some more, too, but they're downloading pretty slow.

 

[Polaris]

Originally posted by Soshyopathe
And it is. Seriously, you should have your shaolin badge stripped if you even think about competing. These Kung Fu fighters in UFC don't deserve to call their style Shaolin.

Yeah ironic that many of the masters of yesteryear competed often in challenge matches, and some still do today. Philosophies like your's are the reason that traditional styles are considered (and often times are) a joke. Why train a skill if you never are going to apply it?

Also, I'm sure that had these "Shaolin" guys performed well that you would be singing a whole different tune.

 

[Wuzzup]

good article

 

[Glassjaw]

You forgot to mention Aikido

I would like to know more about Aikido. I've heard that Stephen Segal is an Aikido master.

 

[Soshyopathe]

Sin Thé is one of the best, but you know out in the chinese forests, the budhist temples are spawning the deadliest in the world.

 

[Pulsar]

Originally posted by Soshyopathe
And it is. Seriously, you should have your shaolin badge stripped if you even think about competing. These Kung Fu fighters in UFC don't deserve to call their style Shaolin.

Have a read of this article and see if it makes sense to you

It is an article that has a lot in common with what "Sexual Thing" has said in his posts

 

[Soshyopathe]

Originally posted by Polaris
Why train a skill if you never are going to apply it?

Also, I'm sure that had these "Shaolin" guys performed well that you would be singing a whole different tune.

You call Competition applying it? How about the real world, jackass. Self defense it what it is, not physical competition.

I can't defend those shaolin losers. There's no way to know who would win if the true shaolin competed.

 

[Knockout King]

Originally posted by Soshyopathe
You call Competition applying it? How about the real world, jackass. Self defense it what it is, not physical competition.

I can't defend those shaolin losers. There's no way to know who would win if the true shaolin competed.

Competition is applying it. The ring and the street are not the exact same, but in competition, you are still applying what you learned to an opponent who is resisting you with all his force and fighting back at you. You are still 2 people giving it your all and fighting ruthlessly until one cannot go on any longer.

Anywayz, Pulsar, you found a very nice post, it IS all about the training. Afterall, howcome karate has never beaten bjj in competition? Because in karate, you are trained in linear punches, linear kicks, and circular attacks. There is NO defense learend against a grappler, the training consists of NONE OF THIS.

In bjj, however, you learn how to attack with your skills and you learn how to defend against a skilled striker. Your trainign is much more efficient because while your karate friend is wasting his time doing a kata (which bruce lee and most successful martial artists since have considered worthless) you are preparing for serious confrontation.

This is also why the ninjas and the samurais were 2 of the strongest hand to hand fighters of all time. They weren't concerned about their styles or tradition, there is no secret to their art. The secret behind their art is the training, they trained harder than the other fighters of that time and that's why they were the strongest of that time.

Now Soshy, let's look at these shaolin dudes, I've seen them train, and yes, I am impressed by what I see, I can imagine how great the strongest among them must be. The training provided in shaolin temples is grueling, but becasue of that it will make it's people strong. But compare what you know about shaolin fighters to what I know about Modern cage fighters.

Tito Ortiz is the current UFC light heavyweight champion. Would you like to know why?

Tito Ortiz trains for 8 hours a day, every day. And he trains in every dimension of fighting known to man. To become a better boxer, he boxes with people who will dominate him in boxing. To become a better kickboxer, he trains with people who will dominate him in kickboxing. To become a better grappler, he trains with people who will dominate him in grappling. He does the same for everything else as far as fighting goes and he does it for 8 hours every day.

I have seen these shaolin fighters in training, I saw one part on a documentary where they had to walk up and down an enormous flight of stone stairs from an ancient temple, and they had to do it ON THEIR HANDS. This is hardcore, but with proper training, I can assure you that one much weaker than tito ortiz can perform a similar feat.

This brings up the question, what would happen if Tito Ortiz fought the strongest shaolin fighter? That all coems donw to one question, what kind of training has the shaolin fighter had? What kind of training does he put himself through? How many times has he applied his training against a strong opponent who resisted him with all he had?

Tito Ortiz has fought some of the worlds greatest fighters and each one made him a better fighter. What about the best shaolin fighters? It can't be said for certain who would win, but it can be accurately predicted by comparing their training and their experience (and if fighting/sparring with other shaolin fighters is all they have done, then they are behind in the experience category).

AND one other thing. I'm going to have to disagree with you about shaolin fighters competing. Experience will make any fighter better. If a shaolin trainee competed in full contact events, all it would do is make him a better fighter, think of it as a part of his training.

 

[Soshyopathe]

Yeah, I have to agree that some of the Shaolin training consists of what looks like stupid crap. The kata and balance/mind excersizes may seem useless, and they are for the more experiences practitioners.

What the kata is for is concentration, chi control, and becoming comfortable with the moves. Maybe a master wouldn't need kata, but how else do you practice specific moves? The mind excersizes may be generally useless, but do you think Tito Ortiz could fight blindfolded? In the streets where you may get eyegouged or dirt or pepper in your eyes.

Sure, hand-walking and balance may seem retarded, but a shaolin master does not fight in a ring. What if he is in a forest, hopping trees, or on a sandy beach, or atop a ledge where footing is hard to come by. Maybe instead of fighting, you need to escape. Your shoes are hard, so you use your hands to quietly travel. You tread lightly over terrain, whereas caged fighters have no choice but to fight. An art may teach how to avoid a fight.

Shaolin trains for every situation, every single possibility. Tito trains for the ring only, and damnit he sounds pretty hard core. But to me a martial art is more than physical skills, and one-on-one assraping. You must strengthen the spirit as well, so you will be as strong at 80 as you were at 20. You kick ass with style, and inflict only as much damage as was attempted on you.

True, it takes forever to become a shaolin master, and unless you are one, you'll probably get mopped by someone of equal effort put into something like BJJ. Maybe it's not the best fighting system, but it's the best martial art.