Eliminate desire or not?

[bp1974]

Bump. This is a good thread.

Pook and Deep Dish, I read what you've written and I can almost see what you're trying to say. It feels like it's hidden in mist at the moment, so I catch small glimpses, then lose it again.

I want to break down what you've said as I've understood it:

- Do guy things: climb mountains etc.

- Create a man's body, not too thin, not too fat, dressed in your own style

- Deal with any emotional baggage you have in order to have a more satisfying experience of life. Desperation will naturally fall away and you will also be going down the 'more human' path.

- Allow your masculine sexuality to have it's natural place in yourself (also part of becoming more human). When you do this you will no longer be seen as androgynous.

I think that last one for me is the hazy part. That's why this discussion has inevitably turned towards the difference between a perv and a sexual man. It's more than just overt sexual behaviour though - I think it's that doing the things you want to do is sexual in itself.

So, becoming someone who will fulfil his own desires and satisfy himself in life, whether it be looking lustfully into some girl's eyes, or hiring a Harley and learning to ride it standing up, will naturally be seen as a sexual and attractive man because he's being all of who he can be AS A MAN. He's living his life his own way.

And yet, at the beginning Pook you said that you no longer kino because the extra muscles you've got automatically give you that sexual appearance, whereas nice guys can use kino to change a girl's perception fo them from 'brother' to 'sexual'. That confuses me because it then disregards most of what I've written above, and makes the 'how to look more sexual' secret seem much more simple and appearance-based. Was your new bulky body all it took for you to be seen as more sexual, or was it just the outside evidence of some internal changes that were happening for you at the time? ie, you were becoming more accepting of your own sexuality, and this prompted you to then work towards a more masculine body, and it was the combination of these traits that created the new, sexual Pook.

These questions are pretty much rhetorical - like I said, I'm hazy, and just chewing it over here. Because I've got the bod - could lose a few pounds, but I'm working on that. I've been described as looking powerful, macho, strong, etc. I do the guy things, always have done. I'm not desperate, as far as I can tell. It's the sexual part that I'm stuck on, and it seem that that's common for all Nice Guys.

I think I see part of how to be seen as more sexual in Deep Dish's observation that 'lust turns on lust'. When I think of that, the first think I think of is "Is it ok to be lustful at work??", so I guess I don't think it is. That fine line between lustiness and perving, what's acceptable, what isn't. The more the girls see you as sexual and attractive, the more your lust will be acceptable.. not just at work, but everywhere. Which sounds like a frustrating vicious circle if you're not seen as sexual in the first place, but I think it's all tied in together somehow.

Oh well, food for thought. Interesting discussion.

bp1974

 

[Imbrondir]

Nice read. Hope this discuission won't die just yet. Anyway, I want to adress the original topic. Sortof something I've thought about a long time.

I've been using the eliminate desire approach for a few months. It took a while to get used to the thought, but it felt great. I said and did almost everything I wanted, without giving the consequenses further thought. I could talk to girls and try to rather 'focus on my game' then attempting to get the girl.

The interesting part is, in all these month, I only got one girl. And this one girls, was in the beginning, when my desire could come flowing back after speaking with her.

Desireless as in, not needy is great, but completly desireless is walking in the wrong direction. The correct way imo is appearing desireless, while really knowing you want her from the start. Requires alot of disipline but is in the end, worth it.

'Want her' might be rewritten to "Want to know more about her".

 

[Pook]

And yet, at the beginning Pook you said that you no longer kino because the extra muscles you've got automatically give you that sexual appearance, whereas nice guys can use kino to change a girl's perception fo them from 'brother' to 'sexual'. That confuses me because it then disregards most of what I've written above, and makes the 'how to look more sexual' secret seem much more simple and appearance-based. Was your new bulky body all it took for you to be seen as more sexual, or was it just the outside evidence of some internal changes that were happening for you at the time? ie, you were becoming more accepting of your own sexuality, and this prompted you to then work towards a more masculine body, and it was the combination of these traits that created the new, sexual Pook.

This is why I tend to speak more in general terms then in the exacts about how it affects me. You aren't me. Your concern is with bp1974, not with how anyone else does it. If I said, "I do A, then B, followed by C..." in a story, some people will try to copy the routine and go, "What is wrong? Why doesn't / does it work?" You don't need my sexuality. Go create your own. (Some guys do the bad boy look, others something more sophisticated. Experiment and find what you enjoy best.)

It's not just muscles. I do admit, the muscles are helpful. But muscles also depend on what you wear. I don't wear tight shirts usually.

This is the power of sexuality. Imagine a nice guy and put him through a DJ boot training. He has no PHYSICAL changes within in, only mental. He understands and sees the subtleness that wasn't there before. He can sense sexuality. This ALONE will change how women percieve him. (Why? Because women sense guys not on a physical, mental, or even emotional realm. It is something more quasi. The only word can describe it is 'sexuality' but that word doesn't fulfill it either. I think we men do the same with women.)

If you mean kino by 'touching her sexually' (and I don't mean in the perverted way) I still do that but not usually with my hands. With my EYES, with my VOICE, and with my STANCE. I would only kino her if she looked really sad (sometimes they just seem sad but aren't and can BLOSSOM in happiness).

"It is because they sense you can satisfy them."

I don't think so. There are virgins I've trained and they get more successful reactions from women then male sluts. No, there is something else that is a factor that isn't raw carnality.

Years and years ago, I was a super Mega Dork. The change wasn't a loser to Don Juan, as if I gained 'skills' (or how do some people pronounce it, SkILz? haha). It was a dork (thinking himself so smart, so 'above' people in intelligence) almost android-like sexuality, to become more Human. It was a major dose of humility. I still don't think I know really anything about this and am in awe of these... mysteries? of sexuality. I suppose that is the reason why I am still learning new things.

Yeah, be a guy. If you do not like guy things (everyone has their own tastes), find guy things you do like. If you do not like any guy things, re-examine yourself. I used to think sports was 'stupid'. Now I enjoy sports (playing in them. I don't have the patience to sit there and watch it on TV.) This weekend, I'll be doing some backpacking and sailing. It's fun stuff and I feel more like a guy doing it.

What are other guys doing?

Exactly.

 

[Oscar Wilde]

Simplified, this comes down to

a) inexperienced guys following the rules (e.g. use kino), and

b) experienced DJs letting go of the rules and playing by intuition (e.g. don't need kino anymore).

 

[Pook]

Originally posted by Oscar Wilde
Simplified, this comes down to

a) inexperienced guys following the rules (e.g. use kino), and

b) experienced DJs letting go of the rules and playing by intuition (e.g. don't need kino anymore).

No, you're b@stardizing it all by formulating it. "It's either A or B. It is either 1 or 2. It is either Alpha or Omega." It's not binary.

Once, I wanted to 'formulate' everything. The formulas then blossom into philosophies. This became a big problem for me.

Kino is over-the-top for me because I am communicating sexuality through other ways. If I didn't do these other ways, I would kino.

Why do I do these other ways? Because they fit myself. I did not re-define myself so women will like me. I just let my old self grow into a more and more sexual (a more human) being).

Some people try to artificially be '****y and funny'. With me, I'm more sarcastic then anything. I'm also very quiet. So when I speak, everyone listens. And usually I say something odd, sarcastic, or almost insightful, and I become 'mysterious' in their girly eyes.

Some people wear a masculine dress. You know who I'm talking about: gym rats wearing tight shirts all the time. Girls will look but eventually make fun of these guys. For myself, my muscles were never about girls. It was really fulfilling my own self-image. Some people see themselves as wimps so they always remain that way. They do not think, so they do not become. They let the material world define their spirit rather then the spirit define their material world.

All I do now is that I do what I want to do. Many guys go about spitting words and spinning actions at what they think will get the 'reaction' from the girl. The problem with doing this is that you divide yourself from your emotions, from your own internal self. When you Don Juan from the heart, YOU and the WOMEN are much much more animated and happy. You want to fulfill your desires, not the women's.

Go ahead and say whatever you've wanted to say. Do what you've wanted to do. The problems in your world are extensions of yourself. For example, when people cannot control their own life or have artistic frustrations, they believe in 'world conspiracies' from corporations to super secret world governments. When you have problems with women, generally the problem will be with you. Is your soul longing to do one thing but you refuse to act? Why is this? Do you find yourself going silent when you want to be talking? Why is this? Do you want to get to know that hot girl there but cannot ask her out? Perhaps you need to look at your own social life.

I used to think the world was cruel, evil, and unhappy. But that was because I was cruel, evil, and unhappy. Alter yourself and your world alters with you.

 

[Oscar Wilde]

No, you're b@stardizing it all by formulating it. "It's either A or B. It is either 1 or 2. It is either Alpha or Omega." It's not binary.

Once, I wanted to 'formulate' everything. The formulas then blossom into philosophies. This became a big problem for me.

No, I don't agree that simplifying something like this is a bad thing to do - it's making information more accessible and not altering or removing the ultimate message. This is vital because it helps spread the information to more people who would not have understood it otherwise.

It's like a powerpoint presentation - you can look at the bullets and be reminded of the key points of what you already know. Of course, if you don't already know anything about the topic, you'll be lost.

What was the problem that it became for you?

Nothing in your post contradicts my simplification (or "abstraction" if you prefer).

Oscar.

 

[Kodiac]

Go ahead and say whatever you've wanted to say. Do what you've wanted to do. The problems in your world are extensions of yourself. For example, when people cannot control their own life or have artistic frustrations, they believe in 'world conspiracies' from corporations to super secret world governments. When you have problems with women, generally the problem will be with you. Is your soul longing to do one thing but you refuse to act? Why is this? Do you find yourself going silent when you want to be talking? Why is this? Do you want to get to know that hot girl there but cannot ask her out? Perhaps you need to look at your own social life.

That's a keeper, great advice.

In regards to self imagine - dressing etc.
I now like wearing 'tighter' shirts, it makes me feel good - ME and to hell with what anyone else thinks. But on the flip side I now like the tight (black) shirt / jeans look for clubbing - it makes me STAND OUT and hell, i know i have a good body - so may as well use it to my advantage.
Be your own person the rest falls in place.

As for me and my "male" hobbies - i LOVE boxing, apart from that i do the usual - gym. Boxing has given me a lot of confidence in many area's and it is definately a GUY thing.

I do what i want, when i want. I am a MAN, i have desires - i don't need you, you want...you need, ME.

 

[DjDreamer]

Pervs embrace their sexuality with no limits/no ethics...
Honorable men embrace their sexuality with tact...
Bodybuilding guiness book record breakers embrace their sexuality with no weight moderation...

What you want out of life will determine how you express your sexuality. If a man wants to have the possibility of being a paraplegic then he will walk on a tight rope without a safety net. If a man wants to have the possibility of not obtaining future success due to instantaneous gratification then he will climb a tree in his birthday suit at the time of a lightning storm so he can masturbate while peeping through the bathroom window of his neighbor.

Being desireless with sex has to do with being at ease when sex is not obtained. It's obtaining pleasure with other things (hobbies) resulting in the importance of sex being deflated. It's having a good mood not be terminated when a beautiful woman doesn't allow you to slide between her thighs the first time you meet her. It's not getting upset when there is no "hump hump" after meet. It's not setting sex as the #1 priority in life...

Those who desire sex sometimes try to get it by any means necessary, that usually results in crimninal prosecution for them so it's best when their interest in sex is LOWERED or ELIMINATED. Now those who seek to elimnate sex wouldn't be on this site, they would probably be at a monastery chanting and reading some ancient manuscripts.

When a guy drinks an alcoholic beverage he obtains pleasure. That pleasure lowers his inhibitions when dealing with women. His wantiness becomes less so he freely speaks his mind. If the woman leaves him he doesn't frustrate himself due to the wine giving him comfort. Rejection is no biggy for him, he has no pressure to perform. Now if that guy sets alcohol as his #1 priority, he's an alcoholic. He perceives greatness to be external of him. When the alcohol is out of his system and he enters a coffee shop he's not as eloquent as he once was.

Giovanni Cassanova wrote an interesting thread dealing with the idea of success. Meeting, talking, caressing and sexing are all successes, it's just that people put different value on them.

When taking a piss after a long journey I feel extremely relieved but I don't drink and delay the time of relieving myself just so that I can have an increase feeling of well being. I don't live with the purpose of feeling euphoric at a urinal. That would just be unnatural just like a woman bodybuilder. Wanting to have happiness dependant on releasing sperm is like fantasizing about standing over a urinal

When a guy stops "obsessing" about sex the importance of sex will be less but at least his decrease desire will make him obtain what he once highly desired (or make him save money on hookers). He'll get sex because his time wasn't wasted on reading and re-reading hundreds of sosuave.com threads dealing with sex.

NOW is the best time for happiness

Once again...

Having fun is the way
Thinking about delayed fun is the problem

 

[Kodiac]

Eliminating desire is NOT being a Don Juan.

I looked up the meaning of a DJ for the purpose of another thread but came onto something worth posting about here also.

Don Juan

1. A libertine; a profligate. (see below for meaning)
2. A man who is an obsessive seducer of women.
n: A successful womanizer (after a profligate Spanish nobleman)

Libertin - One free from restraint; one who acts according to his impulses and DESIRES ; now, specifically, one who gives rein to lust; a rake; a debauchee.

Don't be afraid of your desires.
You are man, make no excuses for yourself - you have needs.

 

[DjDreamer]

Showing individuality is nice.

Being apart of a personality cult is not a good thing...

 

[A1SteakSauce]

In other words . . .

There are ways but the Way is uncharted;
There are names but not nature in words;
Nameless indeed is the source of creation
But things have a mother and she has a name.

The secret waits for the insight
Of eyes unclouded by longing;
Those who are bound by desire
See only the ******d container.

These two come paired but distinct
By their names.
Of all things profound,
Say that their pairing is deepest,
The gate to the root of the world.

-- Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu

 

[bp1974]

You aren't me. Your concern is with bp1974, not with how anyone else does it

You nailed it. This is what I do - look for answers outside myself. A very old habit, and it's a hard one to break.

Sexuality is such a basic part of humanity that in becoming more human you cannot but help become more naturally sexual. So I guess the question in many people's minds would be "What does becoming more human mean?". I want to reframe it. Rather than say "become more human", I would say "experience more of yourself". What I mean by that is hard to explain in words, as it's something that can only be truly learned through personal experience, but I will try to explain what it has meant for me so far.

Each person grows up with a set of beliefs and attitudes, taken from the environment they grew up in and their perception of it. Those beliefs and attitudes cover a wide complex range of areas, including which emotions are good to have, which are bad, is the world a good place or not, etc. These beliefs and attitudes then become a mental and emotional map, which that person uses as their guide through the territory of their life.

They've made this map from all their experiences up to that point, so it is as accurate as it can be for them, as it's what they know about themselves and the world. New experiences may show inaccuracies in their map, so the map gets revised. The stronger the initial experiences that created a certain portion of the map, the harder it is for any new experiences to change that part of the map later - it becomes a very fixed belief or attitude.

All of those experiences that each person has created his map from is unique to him, and will be more or less objectively accurate depending on the experience. For example, if a person grows up in a household where academic achievement is praised but expressions of anger are condemned as shameful and the person is rejected, a person's map will include those attitudes, and that person will strive to be academically successful, and never angry, because his belief is that the world smiles on academic achievement, and rejects angry people. In someone else's map, exactly the reverse may be true. Academic achievement was frowned upon, but anger was expressed freely.

For a large number of people, the maps they created to cope with their childhood/adolescent territories are the maps that they are still using today in adulthood. Some parts, the most fixed parts, are completely out of date - the territory has changed, the person is no longer in the family home, no longer subject to the territory of his childhood, but he is still using the same map which served him to some degree in the past.

Taking the first example above, this person's map, to all intents and purposes, contains no satisfying way of expressing anger. He's a whole person, he's definitely himself, but he has areas of his own experience that he no longer acknowledges (in this case anger).

So the statement "experience more of yourself" or "become more human" means to learn to bring all aspects of your own experience into your awareness, where you can see them, explore them, and choose for yourself what beliefs and attitudes you wish to have about that aspect of your experience. In so doing, you change your map to fit the territory of your life as it is now, free of the past. You become free to choose how you want to see yourself and the world, rather than being bound by past limitations that you have internalised and are imposing on yourself. You become more human - when you're angry, you're angry, when you're happy, you're happy - you no longer deny any of who you are for fear of disapproval, rejection or any of those other fears that keep people from enjoying the full range of human experience. I don't think anybody ever achieves this completely - there will be times and situations when old attitudes and feelings rear up, but if you work towards this goal, those times will become less frequent and more manageable. How you work towards it, is up to you.

bp1974

 

[Fishbone]

Bump