Doesn't Marriage go Completely against Nature?

[NickBe]

Alright let's not make this personal. I see this not as an argument, but merely as a discussion.

The thing is, we already have the world you say we should have today. Marriage is dieing. Cheating is done like it's almost acceptable. Sex has become more primal. But where are the improvements? You say people are more happy unmarried, but tell me, where are these happy people? Look at the new generation of youngsters raised by single parents. It may be more primal (and by your view, more natural), but how is it improving things?

This is a broad topic and I would love to see more discussion on it.

Again a flawed point you are saying that in a society in which most people marry single parents are worse off. Of course they are since society is built around the idea of a family with two parents. You can argue something like that in our society they are worse off sure but that is because we created our society like that.

 

[Last Man Standing]

Again a flawed point you are saying that in a society in which most people marry single parents are worse off. Of course they are since society is built around the idea of a family with two parents. You can argue something like that in our society they are worse off sure but that is because we created our society like that.

Your logic is flawed - I'll forgive you because you are young!

Besides the tangible benefits of a normal family upbringing, there are intangibles that affect our spiritual and psychological selves!! Marriage merely equals commitment to what he produces through marriage - how is this bad?

 

[Obsidian]

NickBe, you obviously don't understand economics very well. It's not people's "prejudice" in favor of marriage that keeps hors down. It's because they have kids and they can't produce income.

 

[Kev07]

1. Unless you would like your kid to be raised with split parents (which is not usually a good thing), you should never have kids.

There goes a possible nice aspect/experience of life

2. Good luck finding people to hang out with you when you're 65+

3. I've heard that if you get past the midlife crisis, you accept each other and it's supposedly very awesome.

 

[NickBe]

NickBe, you obviously don't understand economics very well. It's not people's "prejudice" in favor of marriage that keeps hors down. It's because they have kids and they can't produce income.

I understand economic more than anybody here, economics is my business. As far as what you said..... I got no idea what you are talking about.

 

[NickBe]

Your logic is flawed - I'll forgive you because you are young!

Besides the tangible benefits of a normal family upbringing, there are intangibles that affect our spiritual and psychological selves!! Marriage merely equals commitment to what he produces through marriage - how is this bad?

I didn't say marriage is bad I said it is not in our nature. I didn't say that a child is better off raised by a single parent all I said is that our society is built around the modern family a mother, a father and kids. Everything fits that way, economical, socially and mentally. I don't suggest that single parents are better off and I never said that so your logic is flawed not mine.

What if like lions women grouped together and all took care of each others young but of course paid special attention to their own? Would that be bad? The child is raised by a group of people and its father but the father is not locked down to the mother he can have children with other women. What is wrong with that? The child would be raised well maybe even better than a child is raised in a modern family.

Monogamy/marriage is not in human nature and that is the bottom line. It has its benefits it has its draw backs but is it in our nature? No

 

[Obsidian]

What if like lions women grouped together and all took care of each others young but of course paid special attention to their own? Would that be bad?...The child would be raised well maybe even better than a child is raised in a modern family.

Without a father, any male children would probably turn out to be total chumps. Then they would have to come to a website like this to have any hope of success in life.

If not chumps, they would likely turn into over-"masculinized" criminals. Meanwhile, the single women would STILL be low-income earners so the children wouldn't have much money to subsidize their growth.

 

[Falcon]

I didn't say marriage is bad I said it is not in our nature. I didn't say that a child is better off raised by a single parent all I said is that our society is built around the modern family a mother, a father and kids. Everything fits that way, economical, socially and mentally. I don't suggest that single parents are better off and I never said that so your logic is flawed not mine.

What if like lions women grouped together and all took care of each others young but of course paid special attention to their own? Would that be bad? The child is raised by a group of people and its father but the father is not locked down to the mother he can have children with other women. What is wrong with that? The child would be raised well maybe even better than a child is raised in a modern family.

Monogamy/marriage is not in human nature and that is the bottom line. It has its benefits it has its draw backs but is it in our nature? No

Addressing your lion example... As good an idea as that may sound, a large population can't be sustained by that kind of behavior. Luthor Rex made a great point in this thread. He said that when polygamy becomes dominant, or rather the elimination of monogamy, war and rape occurs. That's why you only see this kind of behavior in small groups. In a large population it would be chaos.

Really the difference in our perspectives is you tend to think that society is artificial. Artificial, the exact opposite of natural. That everything is molded like clay by us humans. But I believe it is the other way around. Monogamy remained dominant because it was the best and only way to sustain a large population without everyone turning on each other.

One last thing, you may be an expert on economy like you mentioned, but what makes you an expert on nature? A lot of times on this forum, you get a bunch of people that think they know everything about nature or human nature just because they read a couple of pop psychology books. I used to be one of those people, and now I realized how wrong I was. We think we know everything but we really have only scratched the surface. Human nature is infinitely more complex because our mind is so complex. Unlike other animals, we have the ability to make very intelligent choices. Basing the whole idea of human mating just on the way of how a male produces sperm is a slap in the face of the human race, because it ignores what's in your head, what makes everyone unique and not just a sack of sperm or eggs. I'm no expert on human nature (really, no one is), but our natural intelligence lets us rise above primal activity and polygamy.

 

[Last Man Standing]

Lets make this simple - would a man take care of a child if he doesn't know it's his? NO!!! If 30 guys are pumping a woman with sperm then who is going to lay claim to the child? No one!!! Chaos is the result!!

Woman know this - a child increases her security if the father is known, otherwise the child becomes a burden! This is what is happening today - hors are having babies and my taxes are paying for their lusts!!! We have chaos in America!!!

 

[NickBe]

Addressing your lion example... As good an idea as that may sound, a large population can't be sustained by that kind of behavior. Luthor Rex made a great point in this thread. He said that when polygamy becomes dominant, or rather the elimination of monogamy, war and rape occurs. That's why you only see this kind of behavior in small groups. In a large population it would be chaos.

Really the difference in our perspectives is you tend to think that society is artificial. Artificial, the exact opposite of natural. That everything is molded like clay by us humans. But I believe it is the other way around. Monogamy remained dominant because it was the best and only way to sustain a large population without everyone turning on each other.

One last thing, you may be an expert on economy like you mentioned, but what makes you an expert on nature? A lot of times on this forum, you get a bunch of people that think they know everything about nature or human nature just because they read a couple of pop psychology books. I used to be one of those people, and now I realized how wrong I was. We think we know everything but we really have only scratched the surface. Human nature is infinitely more complex because our mind is so complex. Unlike other animals, we have the ability to make very intelligent choices. Basing the whole idea of human mating just on the way of how a male produces sperm is a slap in the face of the human race, because it ignores what's in your head, what makes everyone unique and not just a sack of sperm or eggs. I'm no expert on human nature (really, no one is), but our natural intelligence lets us rise above primal activity and polygamy.

I wont bother, all I know is that I enjoy sleeping with different women. I get bored of any one woman after a few times of sleeping with her. I also know that if monogamy was in our nature 80% of married couples would not have a spouse that has cheated or is actively cheating.

Also call me crazy but it seems to me like the tribesmen I was referring to are generally more content overall than Americans are overall. They do not have suicide and depression. Also they do not engage in warfare too often. I am not arguing that we should all live like them I am just saying that to me it seems like America has more war and depression than they have.

The evidence I have is that ever since marriage was introduced into popular culture people have been cheating. If it was in our nature we would all be happily married but the fact is that most marriages are not happy and the ones that do not end in divorce more often than not have a spouse that has or is cheating. 50% get divorced 80% cheat ....

 

[bigjohnson]

I didn't say marriage is bad I said it is not in our nature.

That's why every human civilization that got past the stone age has the concept of long term male-female pairings.

 

[Falcon]

I wont bother, all I know is that I enjoy sleeping with different women. I get bored of any one woman after a few times of sleeping with her. I also know that if monogamy was in our nature 80% of married couples would not have a spouse that has cheated or is actively cheating.

Also call me crazy but it seems to me like the tribesmen I was referring to are generally more content overall than Americans are overall. They do not have suicide and depression. Also they do not engage in warfare too often. I am not arguing that we should all live like them I am just saying that to me it seems like America has more war and depression than they have.

The evidence I have is that ever since marriage was introduced into popular culture people have been cheating. If it was in our nature we would all be happily married but the fact is that most marriages are not happy and the ones that do not end in divorce more often than not have a spouse that has or is cheating. 50% get divorced 80% cheat ....

Forgive me on my last post, the last half was more of an argument against extreme darwinist, which may not necessarily pertain to you.

You are correct that the divorce and cheating statistics are through the roof. But these statistics were no where near what they were a century or two ago. Like I mentioned earlier, we are living in the selfish age. It's sad. We only think in terms of ourselves. We aren't being taught anymore that our actions leads to consequences. For example, have you seen the movie Unfaithful? It's a favorite with women. The woman in the movie ends up cheating on her husband. In the process, her husband kills the other man that she cheated with. By the end, the husband and wife move along with life like nothing ever happened. The point is the woman was able to cheat and get away with it untouched. Never mind the trail of disaster and wreckage she left behind. This is the selfish mindset at its best, and it permeates everywhere in the media today.

So I believe if you want everyone to revert to polygamy, we will have to accept the consequences that it brings, which may be very brutal. Some of these consequences are already showing their face today. But because of our natural intelligence, we have the power of choice. We have the choice of not being driven by pure emotion. It is natural to think just as much as it is natural to feel. Don't you think so? So I see polygamy AND monogamy as natural. Isn't it great to live a life where you can choose and not be driven by one entity?

 

[NickBe]

That's why every human civilization that got past the stone age has the concept of long term male-female pairings.

How can you possibly link marriage to advancement in civilization? There is no link it is just wishful thinking. The reasons that we advanced whilst others didn't are completely different and not related to marriage.

 

[azanon]

Hence the reason we where clothes, azanon.

In fact, there are two reasons:
1. Some humans are too beautiful for everyone to lay eyes on without morals breaking down.
2. Other humans are too ugly.

Two contradictory reasons, with one solution.

Who's morals? You're speaking generally about a word and associated definition that's 100% subjective.

In any event, only you are responsible for your actions. If you do something "amoral" (by whomever's definition you use), you alone are responsible.

 

[azanon]

Lets make this simple - would a man take care of a child if he doesn't know it's his? NO!!! If 30 guys are pumping a woman with sperm then who is going to lay claim to the child? No one!!! Chaos is the result!!

Lets make this simple for LMS; men often marry women with children all the time, and many end up being good fathers to these children. Maybe these men are AFC, but many actually do that. Words like forgiveness, compassion, love (when it isn't deserved), are foreign to LMS. Instead, LMS dreams of wars where hors are murdered (see his post #41 above).

Surely you must find it ironic that one of the most evil posters (if there is such a thing as evil) on this forum is, without a doubt, you LMS.

 

[blueguy]

FOOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!! You misunderstand the reality of the underground hor matrix conspiracy!!! Marriage is Doomed!!!

You see - It was JFK who ruined marriage. He funded the pharmaceutical companies millions of dollars for better contraceptives to fuel the HOR/HOMO MATRIX REVOLUTION!!!!!!!

America will fall to ruins!!! You will see!!! It is predicted in the Bible. The natural order has been destroyed!!! Do not get married or you will DIE!!!!!!!!!!!! FLEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, mate? :rock:

 

[bigjohnson]

How can you possibly link marriage to advancement in civilization?

The correlation is there, I didn't make it up. Sorry if the facts get in the way of how you think things should be.

 

[NickBe]

Where? there are plenty of underdeveloped civilizations that promote monogamy and their a plenty well developed that promote polygamy. There is no correlation but the one you created to convince yourself that life is all candy and butterflies.

The facts are most married people cheat and if they do not they are swingers or at the very least flirt with people of the opposite sex. This all goes to show that monogamy is not in our nature, if it was we would not all be getting divorced, cheating, flirting and *****ng. By the way it has nothing to do with living in selfish times your experience of the 50's is what you see on television. The truth is in the 50's women and men were just as horny as we are, they flirted and cheated it was just no as commonly know as it is now. Try passing around a survey in the 50's saying "do you cheat on your spouse" you would be arrested. Actually you know what I think in the 50's it was still illegal in America to sleep with a married person or maybe that was a decade earlier who can remember.

Live with it monogamy is not in our nature it has benefits that is for sure, the economic benefits to a country are enormous. However it is not in our nature to be with one person that why after a few years of marriage we end up straying.... Personally I have slept with many married women so I have first hand experience people are not built for monogamy.

Another fun fact a mans sperm is programed to kill other mens sperm. If we are meant to be monogamous why bother with being programed to kill other sperm? Not much point. You can argue it all you want with the logic you acquire from all advertising, movies and society in general but the truth is we are not meant to be monogamous.

 

[bigjohnson]

Every human civilization that pulled itself past the stone age also had the societal concept of durable pair bonds. Argue about what this does or doesn't mean all you want. Doesn't mean I like it, I'm just a neutral observer here.

PS - for an emotionless guy you sure seem to get all fired up over nothing.

PPS - I'll be happy to be proved wrong, after all I'm no history geek, I could well be off on this. Name a few, say, 5, civilizations that advanced from stone-age to let's say, pre-industrial without aid of the concept of something very like marriage. Go.

 

[Falcon]

Ah Nickbe, from the last comment from your last post, it seems you have read some pop psychology books. Good for you because I have too. I used to think just like you. That is until I realized there is more to this world then what's between our legs. That's the problem with most of those books. They define the human being by their sperm or egg. That is one mistake I'm not going to make again. I believe what makes us human originates from the mind, since it is so unlike anything else on this world. If you want to define yourself solely by your sperm and how it acts, then fine, go ahead. Be driven by it with no control. Explore your sperm and how it works, and then try to live your life by that. I choose the other route, where the mind actually means something. Where I can make choices. I choose to explore my mind. Extreme-darwinist tend to reject the mind and focus on smaller things, like mating habits, instincts, or the function of your feelings. Even when they know darn well that your feelings and instincts originates from and is just one facet of your mind! To me, rejecting the rest of the mind is trying to reject being human, and that is the most unnatural thing a human can do.