Does game produce difficulties?

[Plateonics]

You engage in 'game', which is a soft word for 'manipulation', as your primary mode of interacting with women, as your mindset whenever you encounter a woman, and then you wonder why women are difficult & *****y? Maybe game causes this outcome. Why not just drop game and be authentic? Talk to the woman and if you find her attractive, tell her. If she responds positively, ask her out. If she games you, just end it and move on.

What's the problem with dropping game?

 

[Die Hard]

Game and manipulation eventually become authentic behavior.

 

[scrouds]

You engage in 'game', which is a soft word for 'manipulation', as your primary mode of interacting with women, as your mindset whenever you encounter a woman, and then you wonder why women are difficult & *****y? Maybe game causes this outcome. Why not just drop game and be authentic? Talk to the woman and if you find her attractive, tell her. If she responds positively, ask her out. If she games you, just end it and move on.

What's the problem with dropping game?

You have a premise worth considering. Does game cause modern woman to act the way she does. Modern woman is a hypergamous creature without any restraint on their genetic natural disposition to bang the alpha and make the beta raise her spawn.

I would first have to reject the premise that game causes female hypergamy. It is natural and hard wired into homo sapien's genetic code.

The question then becomes: Did game unlock modern woman's hypergamy restrictions. I would have to say no. Game is a response to hypergamy. It is a methodology to take advantage of the current sexual marketplace climate.

Would a removal of game put the genie back in the bottle? No, it won't. We would need to have a wholesale return to our more conservative past. That past favored the beta. If the climate were to change, game will be less useful, and will dwindle and die naturally.

 

[zekko]

Women can be awfully *****y and difficult without game..

Are women like that really worth messing with?

This thread is honestly a pathetic shaming attempt aimed at game.

I don't agree with the OP that game is the cause of women's behavior. But I don't care for playing games, I don't have the patience for it. At my age, I feel it's a waste of my time. If you keep an honest dominant frame, you shouldn't need the more dishonest and manipulative tricks to enjoy women.

 

[Jitterbug]

Personality changes (game or not), it's just slower and harder to notice (because your brain fools you) than other things. This "authentic" BS shaming of Game relies on a false premise that personality does not and should not change.

Rollo wrote a long ass blog post on this over at his Rational Male blog.

 

[zekko]

If that is not manipulative, then why is changing your personality in any way manipulative (naturally negging, dhving, telling good stories, etc,...)?

I'm not trying to say that game is manipulative, I said some aspects of game are manipulative and dishonest.

For instance, I don't like to be fake. I have no problem with DHV stories, but they have to be true (for me). I'm not going to make something up to look more valuable. If I'm not good enough the way I am, she can move on.

I'm not going to ask "Hey, did you see those two girls fighting outside?" when there was no fight outside.

That's just for me. I know other guys who have had a good deal of success lying to girls, so I'm not saying it won't work. It's just not something I would use personally. If someone else wants to do it, I'm not judging you.

 

[Colossus]

You engage in 'game', which is a soft word for 'manipulation', as your primary mode of interacting with women, as your mindset whenever you encounter a woman, and then you wonder why women are difficult & *****y? Maybe game causes this outcome. Why not just drop game and be authentic? Talk to the woman and if you find her attractive, tell her. If she responds positively, ask her out. If she games you, just end it and move on.

What's the problem with dropping game?

This is a common newbie question. "Why cant I just be myself?" Well, if being yourself has worked so well, then what brought you here?

Just because you dont want to learn game doesnt mean that game ceases to exist. It never ends. Here are what I think are the CENTRAL elements of game:

-Leadership. YOU are responsible for your own happiness. In any relationship with a woman, your needs are most important. That sounds selfish, but think about it: If you put her needs over yours, yours go unmet. Then YOU arent happy, and she probably is. She isnt going to make sure your needs are met automatically. You have to take the lead. That doesnt mean ignore hers, or trounce all over them, but you need to be the strong leader in the relationship. Because if you dont, she will fill that void, 9/10. And in my experience and observation, women simply are not capable of being the leader of the relationship and keeping both parties generally happy. Women will almost NEVER admit that they respond to and NEED strong male leadership in a relationship, but you gotta look at their actions.

-Defense. Women are naturally great manipulators. They learn these techniques from childhood. As the weaker sex, they learn to use relational expertise and manipulation to get what they want. Men learn to use their physical power, aggression, and rationality. BUT---men neglect relationship game, and usually get schooled by women's superior social manipulation. We are defenseless unless we learn actively. Women know how to back men into corners. Rational arguments almost never are the best course of action in defending yourself from getting played. You need to fight fire with fire. LEARN how they communicate, think, and feel. There are consistent differences.

-Offense. Game is instrumental in successfully picking up women. Can you get women without game? Of course. But not nearly as many and not nearly as easily. You are more or less relying on luck, and setting yourself up to get played. YOU have to be the active leader in getting what it is you want from women. This requires game and the subtle social skills needed to level the playing field. Remember, the social world is WOMEN'S natural playing field. You need to know how to circumvent various shaming conventions, walk through your fears, and use fluid conversation to get the women who arent going to approach you. Not every interested woman will approach you.


Game is really about getting what you want with women and relationships. It's a mindset, a collection of skills you develop over time. Is it manipulation? yes, in a sense, but not all manipulation is inherently bad. Remember women are naturally manipulating men every single day to get what THEY want. You gotta get what you want and not get tooled on. How is that malicious?

 

[Aaron B]

You engage in 'game', which is a soft word for 'manipulation', as your primary mode of interacting with women, as your mindset whenever you encounter a woman, and then you wonder why women are difficult & *****y? Maybe game causes this outcome. Why not just drop game and be authentic? Talk to the woman and if you find her attractive, tell her. If she responds positively, ask her out. If she games you, just end it and move on.

What's the problem with dropping game?

you display a fundamental lack of understanding of women, dating and relationships

your idealism will get you nowhere

here's the reality:

ALL WOMEN PLAY GAMES BY DEFAULT WITH RESPECT TO THEIR ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS

The only way for you to avoid her games is to no longer desire to have sex with women.

Since that probably isn't going to happen, why not quit your whining and deal with reality?

Additionally, I reject the notion that games and manipulation of women are inherently dishonest. If I need to manipulate her into getting what I want from her and what I want is also what she wants, who is the injured party? She wants to be penetrated by a powerful man so that she can bear his offspring and ensure that her genes are spread as far as possible. That's the whole reason for our sexual urges.

 

[guru1000]

Your authenticity is a contrivance insofar as there is not one detail you have incorporated into your identity that has not been indoctrinated by social, parental, or educational convention. The man who preaches a tenacious loyalty to a damaged identity is also the man who finds himself stagnant in a world replete with other men who are willing to push into new paradigms; to push through their authentic comfort and onto greener pastures. Ironically, this same man by virtue of his stagnation is most manipulated, as he fails to unlearn, and remains fettered by, his imbued, manipulated conditioning.

 

[sodbuster]

Is learning indications of interest manipulative? Speaking Spanish is a good idea if you are going into interior Mexico[away from tourist towns]. Just so, learning how women communicate their desires to you is necessary to ever be successful in dating them[it's not like I can be "genuine",grab her by the hair and drag her back to my cave anymore]

 

[Atom Smasher]

Game is the development of infuence, a positive trait. Distilled down, women are required to look good in the game, hence their artificial, store-bought faces. Men are required to be infuential, hence their study of game.

Our problem is that society has been so massively corrupted that normal levels of game don't work anymore. Men and women have to almost become characatures of the ideals of manhood and womanhood. Hence the plastic surgery on their part, and the amplified, "Alpha" male that so many strive for.

Women like to be treated like sh!t (another extreme amplification of what was once normal attraction to strength). Game helps us to get rid of the nice guy that I'm convinced most of us wanted to be, but at what cost?

 

[Die Hard]

Game helps us to get rid of the nice guy that I'm convinced most of us wanted to be, but at what cost?

I'm curious, what are you getting at? In asking that question "at what cost?", you seem to be implying that there's a big downside to developing game.

 

[EvilAgenda]

Plateonics,

What you wrote is part of the game. The game never ends.

Why not just drop game and be authentic? Talk to the woman and if you find her attractive, tell her. If she responds positively, ask her out. If she games you, just end it and move on.

Being authentic, direct, and congruent is still part of the game. That's your game. You don't bullsht around, which is way more attractive that what a lot of guys are doing such as "convince" a girl to like them and go out with them.

 

[SgtSplacker]

Represent yourself

I have always said the best thing a man can do for himself is learn to represent himself properly. This is true not just in relationships but everywhere in life too.

I learned this in a fight. I was in a group of people arguing back and fourth and one of my friends just came out, stated the problem, stated what he thought was wrong about it, and why it was their fault and just proceeded to try everyone that didnt agree with him. He addressed his point with an element of respect and honesty nobody could debate, everyone knew his agenda, and he stood behind it to the death. Nobody on either side could tell that man he was wrong because we all knew he was'nt and was just for feeling the way he did. Nobody wanted to fight after that, when just before we had been sh1t talking amping each other up for a big fight like animals do. I learned a valuable lesson that day and was very proud of my friend too for teaching me that. That lesson was to always properly represent yourself no matter what.

This site teaches me the dymanics of doing just that, but with women. This site teaches me how to let a woman know what I want and how I want it. This site gives me the conviction to do the right things for the right reasons not because of some emotional reaction. Sometimes I don't know when to quit, this site lets me know when it's right to walk away and when i'm just dealing with something that just needs to be overcome.

On the manipulative aspect of game:
These sites have teachings that have to be internalized and made yours for you to get the most from them. If you are not a manipulative person then by all means don't become one against your will. If you are then you are now armed and dangerous. I make my game work for me. I dont work for my game. Remember pretending you are something you are not can get old fast.

 

[Aaron B]

Women like to be treated like sh!t

this is what it all comes down to

give the people what they want

 

[DonGorgon]

women are 2xs as picky about you r looks in the day cause they can see you more clearly and they know other people are watching and judging they dude she is talking to so she goes more for the pretty boys in the day...

also at night she feels as though people she knows will be less likely to see her hoing around with random dudes which is why dark night clubs are far more freaky than bright ones..

 

[floydb25]

Much like anything else, game can be used for both good and bad purposes. It all depends on the person's intentions. The reason its required is by the way of how attraction works, and what triggers it. Things like being a challenge, maintaining mystery, not coming on too strong, etc. It's not "bad" when you're attracting the person, and not wearing your heart on a sleeve. In fact, by doing this, you can see things more clearly. It's a win-win for everyone involved. No one is getting hurt. You're not really being dishonest, either. And, they like you, which is a benefit for them.

You could argue that this is being selfish, but what about her? Is it bad that you're attracting her, and she likes you? Is that being selfish? So, you're supposed to have her NOT like you - by doing nothing to attract her? Is it better to have her not like you - for her? What if she wants to like you, but can't feel the attraction? Hmmm?

I'd also like to add that women don't like to be treated like ****. Why do people keep saying this? It's not the jerk they like - its his traits. They HATE the jerk as a person, but he has so many attractive traits about him that the nice guy doesn't possess. That's why she chooses him over the nice guy.

What I view as having game is adapting jerk-like traits - without actually being a jerk. You're still a good person, but are also attractive and exciting. That's what its all about. And most women want this anyway, so what's the problem? Are we supposed to give women what they're not attracted to? Who does this benefit? Not them - and not you.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I'm curious, what are you getting at? In asking that question "at what cost?", you seem to be implying that there's a big downside to developing game.

It's the necessity of "game" that is the cost.

Since the dawn of man, mating played out according to nature, and only the dweebiest of dweebs coulnd't find a mate. Women were happy to find a man and love him andserve him for life. She would consider herself fortunate.

Cut to 2011, and we have clueless, desperate guys by the thousands subscribing to sites like this this because they literally have no idea how to attract a woman. I'm not putting these men down; most of us were clueless before finding this and other similar sites.

We need to learn routines to use as training wheels until we acheive congruence. We need to learn how to counter feminism and all the rudeness and entitled thinking that goes along with that. We are, after all, in an age where even fat, ugly war pigs think they deserve a hot guy.

Essentially we are forced to learn how to manipulate our encounters and employ methodologies in order to even have a fighting chance.

So I would say that "Game", as we know it today, is a symptom of an incredibly sick and twisted society. I think that future generations will look back on ours with a certain disbelief that society could have gotten so unnatural and twisted, because I believe that in the future nature will restore a degree of sanity to male/female relationships.

Having been born in 1957 and lived through many societal changes (I was in high school in the 70s), I have seen the entirety of feminism's birth and propagation. I have witnessed men's declination from leaders and captains of business and industry down to snivelling chumps who are desperately afraid to offend women. I'm starting to sound like that robot in Blade Runner. "I have seen..."

To bottom-line it, we have been forced into an incredibly contrived social climate, and we men are therefore forced to contrive counter-measures. That is the cost. Most of us want to be decent, friendly, giving and kind men. But we find that these admirable traits are repulsive to women. When we step outside the arena that we find ourselves in and look at the world in ther perspective of human nature and history, we can really see how strange it is that men are tapping away at their keyboards trying to figure out how to get girls to like them.

 

[Aaron B]

I'd also like to add that women don't like to be treated like ****.

perhaps "like" isn't the correct term.

women respond to treatment that is considered "poor" by many people

they respond by becoming more attracted and interested and generally treating her man better

"treat her like a queen and you will be treated like a servant"

from my experience, my wife of 6 years treats me the worst after a period of me being too nice to her

i take note and adjust accordingly in order to provide her with what she responds favorably to, which in many peoples' eyes is poor treatment. my goal is to have a successful committed relationship, not to please those people.

in my opinion, if she responds favorably to this treatment, it means she wants it. but she's not free to express that verbally.

It's not the jerk they like - its his traits. They HATE the jerk as a person, but he has so many attractive traits about him that the nice guy doesn't possess. That's why she chooses him over the nice guy.

Absolutely

its the nice guy's fault that she gets stuck with those losers. she would prefer to be sexually attracted to the nice guy, but unfortunately (for her and him) she isn't able to choose to be attracted to a nice guy

and the nice guy thinks she is choosing the other guy over him but in reality she isn't, because the nice guy simply isn't an option for her

additionally, most women in relationships at various times will behave in a way that warrants being "put in her place"

again, perhaps they don't LIKE this in that they may experience negative emotions (and liking something is associated with positive emotions). what men don't understand much of the time is that women have a desire to experience a broad range of emotions

also, people aren't static. most of us aren't always nice or always jerks. i'm sure lots of guys consider me a jerk to my woman. she knows the truth that i'm thoughtful and charming and all that when its appropriate. again, the broad range of emotions.

 

[Alex DeLarge]

ma·nip·u·late (m-npy-lt)
tr.v. ma·nip·u·lat·ed, ma·nip·u·lat·ing, ma·nip·u·lates

2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor.
3. To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: tried to manipulate stock prices.

With these definitions, I would not call true game manipulation. If you have strong inner confidence you don't need to falsify anything. This is why a lot of PUAs can manage to bed a girl, but cannot manage to keep them.

I strongly suggest working your inner game out before going into the field, unless you're just looking for an NSA lay.