Do men exalt the morals of monogamy because they can't get a harem?

Stagger Lee

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zekko said:
I don't know about harems, per se, but I don't see polygamy as being immoral. I don't even understand why it's illegal. In ancient times, the patriarchs had wives and concubines and had relations with them, but they also took care of these women and took responsibility for them. I don't see that as an immoral arrangement.

Polygamy and harems are the exact same thing really, or maybe polygamy is more extreme because I think it suggests multi-wives whereas harems can also mean just multiple GFs.

It's immoral to me because for one man to have more than one wife or GF, another man or men generally has none. This causes men needless suffering and loss of their ability to pass on their genes. It's immoral to cause others to suffer. It's also essentially and potential aborting his children, wiping out his genetic line. I consider it passive-agressiveness, selfishness, causing suffering and so immoral. Not to mention it reduces genetic variety having one man impregnant multiple women vs multiple men. Also it may be harmful to some of the children of the less favored wife.


As far as wanting something or not vs ability to acquier it: I might want to keep the cash I found in a lost wallet and know i'm perfectly able to do so, but following my morals won't allow me. I might want to fvck a married chick throwing herself at me but my morals won't allow me. On the other hand, I might sometimes do things against my morals. But the ability to do xyz or not has little bearing on what my morals are.
 
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backbreaker

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zekko said:
I don't know about harems, per se, but I don't see polygamy as being immoral. I don't even understand why it's illegal. In ancient times, the patriarchs had wives and concubines and had relations with them, but they also took care of these women and took responsibility for them. I don't see that as an immoral arrangement.


What you're missing is that many older guys seek out relationships because they are tired of the shallowness of the endless string of one-nighters, not because their future options are dwindling. Maybe I'm completely delusional, but I feel that I have more options right now at 52 than at any other point in my life.

But you're right that it's a tradeoff. It's not that I would never want to bang some other girls now and then, it's that my relationship is more important to me than the one night stands. I don't feel it is fair to ask my woman to stay faithful to me if I am not willing to be faithful myself. And don't say men are different, women don't want to fvck around, because the same guys who say that are the same guys who will tell you that your girlfriend is always cheating on you.

To me, monogamy is a practical choice - a preference - I'm not "exalting the morals of monogamy". Roissy can take that sh!t and stick it.
the way i see it taiyuu_otoko is correct in the sense, that no making a **** load of money / + million dollars / whatever is not very practical.

I make the choice to devote myself to my businesses/making money over gaming women and running plates.. some my choice the exact opposite and that's perfectly fine. But as Fairshake pointed out you don't see business owners ripping players for plate spinners for not having the drive to want to run a company or start a new business, yet all over the mansaphere you see guys who rip any and everyone who does not bid by their set of morals to the ground. guys getting called chumps for simply having a wife and a family.

i look at it.. running my company and making money / trying to achieve the personal goals i set are more important to me than trying to run game and spin 5 plates at a time. There is some out there that want the exact opposite. The purpose of this.. this entire genre of sites and information is to be able to actively have the choice, not be forced down the business /career path beucase you hope thats the only way you can get a woman to notice you. it's about choices, not right and wrong


I just don't like it when guys say (or imply) "I don't WANT that" when they really mean "I'm not willing to put in the effort to GET that."
I understand what you are saying. However, you are painting this black and white. there are things out there, I just don't particularly want. If my wife came to me and sat me down and told me she wants to try a new lifestyle and wanted me to go get 3 more wives and she woudl be perfectly happy and content with that, i still would not go do so beucase it's not something i desire to have. If i did not have to put any additional effort at all into getting 3 more wives, i still not desire to have them. women just aren't ThAT big of a deal to me. This may seem counterproductive with being on a site for men to get women but they just aren't. My entire reason for coming and staying on this site is to manage the ones that are in my life correctly, not to get / obtain more of them.
 

zekko

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Boilermaker said:
Whenever this topic comes up, practically ALL the older guys who are in some monogamous relationship shout at the top of their lungs: I chose this! I want this! It was my choice!
First off, I wasn't aware that I was shouting. And second, why is it so hard to believe that it actually is my choice? Why is that so impossible? There is a biological urge to pair bond just as there is a biological urge to spread your seed. Human beings are wonderfully flexible and adaptive creatures. The fact is, it IS my choice. I'm not hassling you about whatever you want to do, why are you hassling me?

That doesn't mean I never think about banging another girl, but all else being equal, I still choose my relationship. I would like to sit around watching TV all day while downing steaks and ice cream - the human body has a biological urge to store fat for the winter - but that wouldn't be the best choice, would it?

Boilermaker said:
What you never see is an older guy saying " Hey , it's true that my options aren't as good as what they were when I was 35; and I don't think I can sustain a multi-LTR lifestyle at this time.
I see older guys complaining about their options all the time. That's why I am so often on here telling them they have self limiting beliefs (of course you have to have built up some value). Shoot, I can't count how many times guys who are 30 have come on here complaining that they are too old to pick up chicks.

I realize this is difficult to understand for a guy in his 20s, but I genuinely do think my options are better now than they ever have been. A girl told me just the other day "I have to have an older man, the guys my age are all too immature".

FairShake said:
In fact I would say the hate and disbelief comes from single men more than the other way around. Put it like this...sites for married men and fathers rarely talk about how horrible and immoral single men are, but PUA and manosphere sites constantly talk about who pvssywhipped and pathetic married fathers are.
This is exactly right. I don't see a bunch of old guys here telling the younger guys not to spin their plates, quite the opposite. So don't call me a chump for living my life the way I want to. And I find the idea of telling me I don't really know what I want quite insulting. I've spun my plates. You think one day all the women ran out so I was forced to settle down and be monogamous? That's ridiculous.

Stagger Lee said:
It's immoral to me because for one man to have more than one wife or GF, another man or men generally has none. This causes men needless suffering and loss of their ability to pass on their genes. It's immoral to cause others to suffer.
That's pretty much a socialistic view of dating. I won't say you're right or wrong, but it's an interesting philosophy.

Backbreaker said:
i look at it.. running my company and making money / trying to achieve the personal goals i set are more important to me than trying to run game and spin 5 plates at a time.
Right, it's also a matter of priorities. I know at my age, I have accumulated a lot of things going on in my life. Women are on my list, but as you say, they're just not that big a deal. There are other things going on in the world besides screwing women. Do you really want to make that the focus of your life?
 

Boilermaker

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zekko said:
First off, I wasn't aware that I was shouting. And second, why is it so hard to believe that it actually is my choice? Why is that so impossible? There is a biological urge to pair bond just as there is a biological urge to spread your seed. Human beings are wonderfully flexible and adaptive creatures. The fact is, it IS my choice. I'm not hassling you about whatever you want to do, why are you hassling me?
Hassling you? Hmm, maybe another question to ask yourself is, why do you feel hassled? You can do whatever you want, after all, I don't have any control over at your side, right? I wasn't specifically talking about you anyway. I am making an observation here, in case you missed it. That is, people like to believe (or make themselves believe) that whatever life situation they end up with is their rightful choice.

And when they are reminded of the possibilities, they feel insulted.

I see older guys complaining about their options all the time. That's why I am so often on here telling them they have self limiting beliefs (of course you have to have built up some value). Shoot, I can't count how many times guys who are 30 have come on here complaining that they are too old to pick up chicks.
Exactly my point. Self-limiting beliefs, and when they can't take it anymore, self-delusioning.

Right, it's also a matter of priorities. I know at my age, I have accumulated a lot of things going on in my life. Women are on my list, but as you say, they're just not that big a deal. There are other things going on in the world besides screwing women. Do you really want to make that the focus of your life?
Not really. It's not about women actually. It's about a much more widespread phenomenon. I can't expect you to see it from the perspective of women because it will shatter your emotional investments. So I'll try this way,
I have tried to get better at chess for some time. I ended up with a rating that is around 1600 USCF. Whether it's good or bad is irrelevant. I couldn't improve it much, I am just stuck at that. Now, when I am confronted with the fact that there are thousands of players who can kick my ass, I bring up the following : I really believe chess is stupid board game, and there are other things in life. Chess isn't life. I choose to stick to 1600. I really do. It's my choice. It's insulting to remind me that I didn't break 2000. I "could" if I wanted to.

How am I sounding now?

I am not claiming that this is true for anything and everything and we never get to choose, but all I am saying is this happens MUCH MORE than we think; and we need to do an honest introspection every single time; when we think we "believe" something or we "chose" something. Chances are, circumstances outside us, pushed us to our beliefs and convictions.

Here's a remarkable TED talk that touches the sort of things we are discussing here:
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html
 

zekko

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And when they are reminded of the possibilities, they feel insulted.
That's because it is insulting. Do you really think I am not aware of the possibilities? How could I not be?

Your chess analogy is interesting, but it doesn't apply to me. I did not fail at plate spinning. I got bored with that and wanted a girlfriend instead. There are guys that come on here a lot younger than you are wanting a monogamous relationship. A lot of guys. They just want to have somebody that cares about them. Maybe they are rushing the gun a bit - they're better off dating around and learning about women and their options first. But ultimately, that's a lot more satisfying than a string of one night stands - at least to me.

What I'm saying is you and Roissy are free to do with your life whatever you want to. Don't be putting me (and other guys who seek monogamous relationships) down because I'm not looking for the same things you are. I'm not on here putting down your lifestyle and saying how self deluded you are because you're at a place I was 25 years ago.

I could just as easily say that what you really want is a LTR and a woman who really cares about you. But you failed at that, so you say "That's a stupid game anyway", and are forced to seek random sex partners when you can get them instead. Then you delude yourself into thinking that's what you want when you really want the LTR instead. That's the equivalent to what you're saying to me.
 

Boilermaker

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No I wasn't trying to put anybody down. But if I was brash, I apologize.

This was the summary of my thinking on this:
Boilermaker said:
but all I am saying is this happens MUCH MORE than we think; and we need to do an honest introspection every single time; when we think we "believe" something or we "chose" something. Chances are, circumstances outside us, pushed us to our beliefs and convictions.
I could well be at a place where you were 25 years ago. Fair enough. I am younger than you, you could be thinking, a young guy, what the hell does he know anyway and dismiss it, and you may be right. I am interested in being wrong.

It could also be true that all I really want is an LTR; but at this stage, I'd rather say, all the girls I have around are sort of LTR-ing me, so maybe I want the opposite of it so badly that it looks appealing to me. It is also not directly about me, I may be fooling myself even more than everyone I talk about. But knowing that possibility, or pitfall rather, is important, and this is what I have been trying to bring up.
 
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zekko said:
I could just as easily say that what you really want is a LTR and a woman who really cares about you. But you failed at that, so you say "That's a stupid game anyway", and are forced to seek random sex partners when you can get them instead. Then you delude yourself into thinking that's what you want when you really want the LTR instead. That's the equivalent to what you're saying to me.

You just blew my fvcking mind. Now I don't know what to think.
 

backbreaker

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TyTe`EyEz said:
You just blew my fvcking mind. Now I don't know what to think.
i was going to say the same thing. that was a really good point. a point that has a lot of truth to it.

some guys who just suck ass at LTR's and can't keep a woman happy are all too happy to soop up the idea of not being committed to long term relationships, not beucse of any real morality issue but beucase they just aren't good at it.
 
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backbreaker said:
some guys who just suck ass at LTR's and can't keep a woman happy are all too happy to soop up the idea of not being committed to long term relationships, not beucse of any real morality issue but beucase they just aren't good at it.

I was thinking more along the lines of most guys want an LTR with an attractive, caring and faithful woman who will love them for who they are, not what they can provide. After learning about the game and female hypergamy, they realize that this just isn't possible. So instead of going around feeling depressed and whining about it, they go out and bang as many women as possible, all the while telling themselves that it's what they really wanted in the first place.


Edit - As would be the case with myself.
 

Boilermaker

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I am glad that all of us producing more and more profound examples of rationalization now. It is entirely possible that those who can't manage LTR's are more willing to support polygamy for men. That's a very good counter delusion-jab from the "monogamy" department I might add!

I'd go with Occam and his razor and believe the simplest explanation though. George Clooney just likes to bang hot chicks!...
 

muscleman

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If you offered a guy one woman or multiple, no questions asked, he would default to multiple at all times.

It's just like if you offered a guy a 50k job or a 100k job, same hours, same effort. Of course he'd take the higher paying job.

The disconnect happens, as you say, when men can't or choose not to expend the effort to build a harem, so they rationalize it away. Very typical.

Law #36 - Disdain the things you cannot have.

I'll take a quick stab at backbreaker - I remember when he was 'out and about', then got hitched and now of course his entire viewpoint has changed. This is only natural, to justify you own situation based on your circumstances.
 

sodbuster

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You offer me multiples...in today's society...not interested. NOW, make me Emperor...incredibly wealthy, just have to manage the managers of the country,eunuch's to manage the women, and the absolute right to chop off the heads of the complainers.... yeah, could live with that
 

taiyuu_otoko

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Zekko said:
I could just as easily say that what you really want is a LTR and a woman who really cares about you. But you failed at that, so you say "That's a stupid game anyway",
Very true, and very defensible. Also, there's more and more evidence that one of the purposes of the conscious mind is to make up stories as go through life reacting pretty much on instinct.

Take this as an example.

Somebody's got five choices, A, B, C, D, and E.

If they can equally get each one, with the same amount of effort, they'll choose one, and then say they don't like the others because they don't "want" them.

But we all know that life doesn't work like that. Often times we fool ourselves into thinking that we don't "want" something because we simply can't get it.

It's the heart of the "sour grapes" excuse. We go through life, being lazy humans, choosing the maximum amount of pleasure for the least amount of work. Since admitting to ourselves that we suck at getting something that other people are enjoying, we trick ourselves into thinking that we really don't want it.

To give a specific example, I don't like golf much. I suck at it. I could easily tell myself, and tell others that I don't play golf because I don't like it. It's boring, it's expensive, and I could think of better things to do with my time.

To further make myself feel better, I could "put down" people who play golf. Of course, I don't put them down directly. I don't say, "Golfers are idiots. I'm better than them."

I structure my language that it "presupposes" that golfers are inferior. I would say something like "I would rather spend my money on something worthwhile."

This implies that golf is not worthwhile. That would mean that golfers are spending time on an unworthy pursuit. This is a linguistic judo method of putting down golfers indirectly is very common, and very easy to spot once you know what you're looking for.

For example, take this statement:
"guys want monogamous relationship. They don't want to be womanizers."
Now, on the surface, it sounds like an innocuous statement. However, the two choices are "monogamous relationship" and "womanizer." The word "womanizer" even in seduction circles, has negative connotations. So in that statement, the writer has indirectly put down those who have chosen to pursue a path of different relationships with different women.

Now, that raises an interesting question.

Is a monogamous relationship as inherently desirable among men as a string of extremely satisfying one-nighters?

Are the two choices REALLY the same as choosing a hamburger or a chicken sandwich when they both cost a dollar and you've got a dollar?

Given skills in achieving both a successful string of one nighters, AND the skills to create a rewarding monogamous relationship, which would men choose?

Very few men alive that have had the skills to get pretty much any women they wanted have settled down with one woman, for the rest of their lives. At best, they were serial monogamists.

As I have said before, the depths with which humans can deceive ourselves knows no limits.

My thing is this: There's no shame in not choosing something because you can't be bothered to put in the effort, or you suck at getting it.

Everybody does it. Every day. I do it. You do it.

But you're only fooling yourself when you look to somebody who has more skills than you do, and can therefore make more desirable choices with their life, and then somehow put them down as being beneath you.

It takes a very brave man to look himself in the mirror and say:

"I suck at X, Y, and Z. Do I want to put in the effort to improve my skills so I can get better things? Or do I accept what I can get today, and be cool with that?"
 

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TyTe`EyEz said:
I was thinking more along the lines of most guys want an LTR with an attractive, caring and faithful woman who will love them for who they are, not what they can provide. After learning about the game and female hypergamy, they realize that this just isn't possible. So instead of going around feeling depressed and whining about it, they go out and bang as many women as possible, all the while telling themselves that it's what they really wanted in the first place.


Edit - As would be the case with myself.
You're missing the part AFTER which they go out and bang multiple women. They convince themselves (again) they want a girlfriend (maybe even a wife), stay in a relationship for a little while, realize they're unable to stay faithful because that angel faced cashier with the shoulder length hair and big round tits at the store or the females at the gym with near perfect asses are becoming really tempting. Not only are they tempting but he KNOWS he can have them. Now all of a sudden he may think he made a mistake committing to one woman and possibly (not always) wants out of the relationship without hurting her feelings. I know many here will claim "Oh, but I can have any woman I want and never cheated on my wife/gf" as if it holds any justification to their opinions but the truth is anyone can claim anything through the anonymity of the internet. From real world experiences however, the saying that "men are only as faithful as their options" cannot be denied.
 

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FairShake said:
In fact I would say the hate and disbelief comes from single men more than the other way around. Put it like this...sites for married men and fathers rarely talk about how horrible and immoral single men are, but PUA and manosphere sites constantly talk about who pvssywhipped and pathetic married fathers are.
Maybe it's because PUA and manosphere sites aren't looking at things through rose colored lenses. Married men on the other are generally (not all but most of them) have their heads way up in the clouds thinking that what they "share" with their wives is somehow... "different" or "special" lol :crackup:

When they get slapped with a good dose of reality a very small number will jump off the chick crack bandwagon and start seeing things logically. A larger number of them are doomed to repeating the same mistakes.
 
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C-quenced said:
You're missing the part AFTER which they go out and bang multiple women. They convince themselves (again) they want a girlfriend (maybe even a wife), stay in a relationship for a little while, realize they're unable to stay faithful because that angel faced cashier with the shoulder length hair and big round tits at the store or the females at the gym with near perfect asses are becoming really tempting. Not only are they tempting but he KNOWS he can have them. Now all of a sudden he may think he made a mistake committing to one woman and possibly (not always) wants out of the relationship without hurting her feelings. I know many here will claim "Oh, but I can have any woman I want and never cheated on my wife/gf" as if it holds any justification to their opinions but the truth is anyone can claim anything through the anonymity of the internet. From real world experiences however, the saying that "men are only as faithful as their options" cannot be denied.

Right on. Lately I've been feeling like I should settle down. I see couples that appear to be doing well and I think, why can't I have that? This is most certainly self-delusion. Deep down, I know that an LTR wouldn't make me happy; I just want what I don't have.
 
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Unless, of course, the LTR girl was cool with me banging other chicks.
 

mrRuckus

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You don't know who is rationalizing and who isn't. You can only guess.

They may legitimately just hate something. They may have just legitimately changed their mind after a new experience. They may just be lying to you and rationalizing out loud, but not actually to themselves in their own head.
 

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Most guys would rather have a relationship with one faithful, loving, easy to get along with HB9+. They can't get that or find that so they rationalize what they can get, having one night stands with HB1-5's who aren't suitable for a relationship is what they really want :yes: .

But seriously it cuts both ways, people tend to make their necessity a virtue. Let's be honest here. Sowing wild oats or being promiscuous is a valid natural drive as is monogamy. And people have all kinds of drives but that doesn't necessarily make it moral or one superior to the other.

Realistically, and that's all that matters, playing the field is not very rewarding for most guys. My rule of thumb is the fact that most women today aren't any good for having a relationship with also makes them not any good for even a ONS. They're entitled pain in the a$$ no matter the situation.
 
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