Demons, Ghosts and Spirits? Do they exist...

[Rebound Material]

I'm feeling mean. But I've had enough of this superstitious mumbo-jumbo. Your mom might be lovely, but your dead grandfather is not crossing the eternal divide to nudge some video-tapes off a shelf. It doesn't make any sense, and it's an insult to the rest of us who have lost relatives without inventing or exaggerating some spooky coincidence with its implication that we must not be *special* enough to get such a ghostly message.

Nothing personal Rebound, I just like arguing. I really try to tone it down on this board though.

its all good man, I think everyone tends to go and vent on this site now and then.

 

[Big-J]

I just got ahold of this video tape that my friends say if I watch it I'll die in 7 days. Gonna sit down with some popcorn and watch it tonight,..

1 Day to go! :crackup:

 

[Augie]

I think what happens is old buildings or places where something occurred which is remembered can give you a feel of other things like Ghost, but in saying that I question if they actually exist, sure there are some strange things in this world.

 

[azanon]

What I believe is that people minds create these things because they are scared. You get scared and see things that are not there. Since I can not get scared I do not have that problem.

Regarding my story about the orb as stated earlier, I saw it when I was 18 in the bedroom I grew up in and slept in since I was 6. I saw it approximately 2 am when I just happen to wake up from what I remember was a peaceful sleep; waking up probably from the emitted light. That works out to ~ 4380 nights in the same room, then this one event. Thus, unfortunately I have to reject your theory.

The best theory I came up with would be that I never woke up. Unfortunately, the experience was a full 2 minutes long and I had a good hour at least afterwards to realize I was very much awake before I finally calmed down enough to try to go asleep again.

I slept in that room many nights afterwards and told the story to relatives who now sometimes sleep there. It hasn't been seen since by anyone, myself included.

 

[ViciousDADogg]

There is some old castle in britain, a tourist attraction. They do tours into a room, and some folks come out with bruses and sh1t. Scrary.

 

[Big-J]

Did it work?

Alright Rollo, did the video perform as advertised?

 

[Bonhomme]

Let's look at this in a scientific way:

Everybody and everything are composed of tiny, rapidly moving bits of energy that have particle and wave characteristics, according to our current understanding.

When someone dies, there is definitely some sort of change in their energy. That implies the energy has to go somewhere.

I've experienced what I would consider "paranormal" phenomena, but such occurrences were always spontaneous, unpredictable, and so improbable that the "skeptics'" catch-all of "mere coincidence" appears more far-fetched than the possibility of some sort of wave energy transmission. Sh1t like picking up my land line to call someone and that very person is on the phone: essentially answering their call before the phone rang. This has happened way too frequently -- and with the same people -- for coincidence to seem as reasonable an explanation as thought transmission. Remember that transmission at the speed of light is for all intents and purposes instantaneous, even on a global scale.

It's even possible that the conscious energy that would go into an attempt to test such phenomena would affect the energy field too much in and of itself for the test to have any validity: sort of like testing the effect of gravity on an iron plate with an extremely powerful magnet overhead.

At the particle level, matter does weird sh1t. It seems reasonable that the energy that leaves a person as they die could possibly "hang together," at least for a bit.

Sure, there are lots of hoaxes. But anyone who has the slightest grasp of "if/then" logic knows damn well that hoaxes don't disprove anything any more than they prove anything.

I'm convinced that telepathic signals exist, but I'm equally convinced that testing such phenomena is well beyond our current level of scientific development, and "skeptics" should be more skeptical of their own assumptions.

 

[Deep Dish]

Let's look at this in a scientific way:

But your post wasn't scientific.

Everybody and everything are composed of tiny, rapidly moving bits of energy that have particle and wave characteristics, according to our current understanding.

When someone dies, there is definitely some sort of change in their energy. That implies the energy has to go somewhere.

That is where your science ends.

You undoubtedly are alluding to quantum physics but quantum physics has been proven (I'm certainly prepared to back up this assertion with citations) simply too small to possibly affect classical Newtonian physics. Quantum physics is the panacea of paranormal claims, cited by everyone believing in telepathy, ghosts, UFOs, and even Bigfoot! to hopefully validate their claim. But the claim is demonstratably wrong and if it's wrong for quantum physics it's wrong for string theory as well. There's good reason why the scientific establishment is the establishment and why the paranormal fringe is flatout ignored--disagreement is free but counter-arguments must be convincing.

People invariably say "We don't know what we don't know" and that line of reasoning is bullsh!t. If parapsychologists assert telepathy is true then quantum physics has it all wrong and thereby they the parapyschologists are in the unenviable position of having to prove Planck, Einstein, and many other scientists wrong; point by bloody point. All the science books would have to be rewritten well beyond quantum physics; including astronomy, astrophysics, classical physics, biology. All science as we know it would collapse. Besides, "we don't know what we don't know" is a logical fallacy, de l'argument par l'ignorance.

I've experienced what I would consider "paranormal" phenomena, but such occurrences were always spontaneous, unpredictable, and so improbable that the "skeptics'" catch-all of "mere coincidence" appears more far-fetched than the possibility of some sort of wave energy transmission. Sh1t like picking up my land line to call someone and that very person is on the phone: essentially answering their call before the phone rang. This has happened way too frequently -- and with the same people -- for coincidence to seem as reasonable an explanation as thought transmission.

No, most people including yourself don't have a firm grasp on calculating statistical probabilities. Your example is so ridiculously poor that all anyone must say is: think about all the times no one called. Better yet, conduct double-blind controlled experiments. Oh but wait, no, it "cannot be forced" and the presence of a "skeptic" affects your results, I bet.

 

[Bonhomme]

I've done the probability calculations of simultaneous phone calls, but they're on a CD of files I took off my computer when I reformatted the hard drive. I do not have time to redo them, but will see if I can find the file. The odds came out quite staggeringly against 5 such occurrences in a 14 year period. Way longer than winning the lottery. And many people have discussed experiencing the same sort of thing with me. I've never met anyone who's won a big lottery prize.

You undoubtedly are alluding to quantum physics but quantum physics has been proven (I'm certainly prepared to back up this assertion with citations) simply too small to possibly affect classical Newtonian physics.

No... I'm not alluding to quantum physics, beyond the simplified description of matter as bits of energy with particle and wave characteristics. I'm alluding to physics that's as well understood now as quantum physics was in the Stone Age.

And just where did I mention anything that "affects classical Newtonian physics"? (As if it were some separate thing, and not just an approximation that is so close our senses can't discern the difference). I knew there would be a very high probability of an orthodox "skeptic" trying to twist any mention of not-yet-understood phenomena into spoon-bending.

Oh well. People who lived to watch TV were laughing at Tesla for saying pictures could be transmitted to distant lands. Go ahead and believe what you like... I believe nothing, but am open to possibilities. The more things change, the more they stay the same...

All the science books would have to be rewritten well beyond quantum physics; including astronomy, astrophysics, classical physics, biology.

And they shall. The physics is not up to it yet, but history's message is loud and clear. I'm absolutely certain in the year 2300 (if the human race still exists) our current "scientific" orthodoxy will be regarded every bit as absurd as spontaneous generation is now.

 

[Bonhomme]

For people to call simultaneously, they have to call within an interval of each other that is typically less than a second. Let's be conservative and call it one second.

One of the people with whom I experienced this was my brother. It happened at least twice, within 9 years of calls. I called him about once a week. He called less often, but again let's be ultra-conservative and say he called as often. Let's also conservatively restrict the calling window to 2 optimum hours each day. That's 468 calls for each of us in 9*52*7*2*60*60=23,587,200 seconds very conservatively estimated. And we hit the same one second interval at least twice.

For my real estate broker in 4 years, 4 calls per week, in a very conservatively restricted 4 hours per day, 5 days per week, it comes to 832 calls for each of us in 4*52*5*4*60*60=14,976,000 seconds, again very conservatively estimated. And we hit the same one second interval at least 3 times.

What also bolsters the possibility that this was not due to mere chance was the fact that these only occurred with 2 people, among many with whom I frequently was in contact. One would expect a more random distribution of who was on the other end if it were just coincidental.

One has to make a lot of crude assumptions and approximations just to make the probability calculation manageable. All the approximate calculations I've made came out to about 1 in 50 to 100 million odds of all these events having occurred among calls to these people, not even taking into account the absence of such simultaneous phone calls among everybody else, which, as I pointed out, goes against the "coincidence" theory by the results being too "concentrated". But you're the probability expert, Deep Dish, so I invite you to have a go at the math ...

 

[Bonhomme]

Better yet, conduct double-blind controlled experiments. Oh but wait, no, it "cannot be forced" and the presence of a "skeptic" affects your results, I bet.

There's nothing unusual at all about maintaining as clean a "background" as possible in any scientific experiment. A microbiologist uses sterile agar plates, do they not?

For all we know, the conscious efforts of the subjects themselves could create too much "noise" for the "signal" to come through.

I have no knowledge of any double-blind, controlled experiment that was even remotely relevant to anything I've experienced that could reasonably be attributed to "paranormal" phenomena. They're all about spoon-bending, levitating objects, zener card reading, and such circus sideshow bullsh1t.

An example of a better sort of experiment would be to involve 2 subjects who think they have experienced such phenomena, but are living far away from each other and have not been in touch in years. Call them "A" and "B".

Have "A" take a journal of thoughts, with particular attention to who and what past experiences they are thinking about over a specified period, not telling them why. At some point involve "B" by discussing matters pertaining to A with B and/or bringing B into very close to the physical location of A (as one might expect an inverse-square relationship of such phenomena with distance), all without either party being informed of the nature of the experiment. See if thoughts about B begin to proliferate in A's journal when B is devoting more mental energy and/or is in closer physical proximity to A. See how the variance, if any, relates to B's mental activity pertaining to A vs. how it relates to proximity (preferably without B knowing they are near A, otherwise isolating the effect of proximity would not be possible). Time of day could also be a factor, as the nature of people's mental activity varies with time of day.

The sudden proliferation of such thoughts wouldn't necessarily prove anything, but would certainly suggest that some sort of thought transmission was going on between A and B, as would the absence of any thoughts of B on the part of A suggest that no such transmission was going on. Not a perfect experiment, but a hell of a lot more relevant to the sort of phenomena I think could be attributed to psychic activity than trying to read zener cards.

 

[Mr. Unique]

Please gimme a break! the mind is powerful but its NOT that powerful to create a concrete image of an orb or person. Unless you suffer from schizophrenia it cannot fool a sane person.

My sister saw a ****ing ORB! My mom when she had me in the hospital saw a ****ing kid lying on her bed! Even though there are times where I can't stand them, My sister and my mom are the sanest most humble people I know.

Ive seen things turn on by themselves, Ive felt my leg being pulled when lying on bed many times. This happened at an apartment when I was living in with bad vibes to it also around the time when my sister lost her baby due to a miscarriage. I am not a religious person but I believe in this ****, its the only thing I cannot explain.

Try to explain How my sister has seen a kid running through the next door at the house that we used to live in.

Try to explain how people see big bright round lights float around.

Try to explain how switches turn on, Cookie jars open, and things move by themselves.

There are otther things that ive had not mentioned but its something that has to be felt in order to believe in.

Until science, Dawkins or whoever comes up with a concrete explanation, Im a believer.

Explain that deep dish

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Azanon have you ever heard of ball lightning? It's real and associated with storms but sometimes they just float around for no reason. A lot of people mistake them for "glowing orbs" and "UFOs."

 

[Soupar]

Well hey, if you guys choose to stay ignorant and deny the evidence right infront of you, be my guest. Meanwhile I remain educated about the world and you remain ignorant denying that anything paranormal exists in this world, because that's what the government told you. Yeah, the government also told you the twin towers was brought down fire, but if you do a little nongovernmental research you'll find tons of proof that it was a controlled demolition. Not only was the twin towers supposedly the first time a building has ever completely collapsed by fire, but the twin towers were built to withstand that kind of plane crash. First building ever to be completely totaled by fire? I don't know think so. The fact that smaller buildings have set on fire and still stand today makes the whole thing a little iffy. Hell, I even remember Bush admitting to there being explosives in the world trade center.

You're retarded. every single one of your conspiracy arguements for 9-11 can be easily explained

 

[blinkwatt]

Regarding my story about the orb as stated earlier, I saw it when I was 18 in the bedroom I grew up in and slept in since I was 6. I saw it approximately 2 am when I just happen to wake up from what I remember was a peaceful sleep; waking up probably from the emitted light. That works out to ~ 4380 nights in the same room, then this one event.

Did you ever consider some variables?

Could it have been lights from outside shining threw your blinds or such?

Could it have been those stupid circle/lines that you see after you shut your eyes really hard and reopen them?

Not trying to shot down your idea,just asking.

 

[Deep Dish]

Bonhomme,

I have typed up quite a response, but I will post it tomorrow and in its separate thread. It's too long and too interesting (in my opinion) to get lost in this long thread. While I spend time tomorrow finishing it up, may I warn you I gave the subject my fullest attention.

 

[Nighthawk]

Funnily enough, my gf tells me that she has also seen one of these floating orbs of light, in her bedroom when she was 13. In Taiwan these are said to be ghosts (if they are green) or gods (if they are red, like the one she saw).

Ball lightning was my suggestion too. There are some images on the internet, but it's very rare. But making the jump from unexplained ball of light or unexplained noise in the night to 'ghost' and everything that implies, is where people go wrong.

Looking forward to your post on confirmation bias Deep Dish.

 

[Bonhomme]

Deep Dish, it appears you totally misunderstand my position on this.

I'm not a "believer" who's trying to convince anyone that paranormal phenomena exist.

I am an individual who despises any sort of dogma, be it religious, pseudo-scientific, or what have you.

I find most "skeptics" not to be skeptics at all, but "true believers" in a dogma that does not acknowledge the possibility of there being of any phenomena that cannot be detected with our senses, understood a priori from one's own thoughts and experiences (i.e., emotions), or measured with instruments.

I have proposed an experiment that could be a much better test of the presence or absence of psychic phenomena than any other I know of. I'd love to see that done, although it certainly would be very difficult to control the experiment, to say the least, and even very difficult to find subjects who would meet the criteria without having to compromise the experiment in doing so. The inability of people to read minds also places the experiment at the mercy of the diligence and honesty of the subject. Very difficult to set up, to say the least.

This is an interesting discussion. I look forward to your dissertation, Deep Dish, although it really belongs in this thread.

 

[azanon]

Did you ever consider some variables?

Could it have been lights from outside shining threw your blinds or such?

Could it have been those stupid circle/lines that you see after you shut your eyes really hard and reopen them?

Not trying to shot down your idea,just asking.

I definitely tried to consider all variables and the only thing that falls in the column of "didn't really see what I think I saw" is the fact that I've never seen it again, and "time" slowing fading the experience in my mind.

Here's the ace in the hole; The bedroom I saw it in was on the second floor of a house, with a second floor arranged in an "I" shape; the ends of the "I" being two bedrooms joined by a long hall with no windows. The path the orb flew was 1. foot of my bed (when I awoke) 2. To me when I sat up in the bed 3. back down the length of the bed THEN 4. down the hall, lighting the walls as it floated down. I remember it providing enough light as to make the hall wall light visible as it passed by it. 5. Finally, it went into my sister's room (her door was ajar and it manuvered to float through the opening, meaning it didn't just go through the door).

It was a full 2 minute experience; I had too much time to know i was awake and to rub my eyes.

Its 17 years ago now, so time seems to have made it a distant memory now..

I tend to lean on the alien side/explanation. I think it'd be arrogant of us to assume we're the highest technology in the Universe. Its easier for me to believe in alien life than ghosts.