Demons, Ghosts and Spirits? Do they exist...

Rollo Tomassi

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ElStud said:
Well since you're so confident ghost DON'T exist, do this for me, go f*ck around with a ouija board. Play around for it for a few hours and tell me what happens.
You do of course realize you can buy a Ouija board in the game section of any Toys R Us, right?

Considering that Parker Brothers has been producing these since the 60's, wouldn't it stand to reason (there I went and said it) that the entire world would be plagued with millions of unchained spooks by now? Yet somehow the media keeps missing these stories hmmm,..

heh
 

ElStud

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A REAL Ouija board.
 

Obsidian

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Considering that Parker Brothers has been producing these since the 60's, wouldn't it stand to reason (there I went and said it) that the entire world would be plagued with millions of unchained spooks by now?
Not that many people buy those things. But out of a country of 300 million people and a world of 6 billion people, who says there aren't millions of spooks plaguing people who mess with the occult? It's sold as a board game because it uses a board. If they marketed it as what it really is (a tool of divination), do you really think many people would go to New Age stores to buy it?

In America alone, about 7+ million people claim to have had experiences with UFOs (which are often unpleasant)...Imo, these things are all the same type of deal.
 

ElStud

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I actually think UFO's are advanced Government technology or something, it's hard to believe that there's any other life out there that would want something to do with humans. And digging deeper into the paranormal there's psychic powers. Yeah, I bet you thought psychic powers was all Sci-Fi stuff right? Wrong. There's actually been a lot of research done on it and scientist do admit that humans don't use 100% of their brain power(Infact they believe we only use 7%, ONLY 7%). There have also been several people who have been able to successfully use these powers and there are also several sites out there that actually "teach" you the steps to using them. Heck, we shouldn't even call them "Powers" because it's something any human can naturally do, but it's just the majority of the human race doesn't know how to do it and more of the human race simply thinks that the whole idea of psychic powers is fiction. Psychic powers aren't just fiction, they're real. Telekinesis, being able to create energy balls, moving things with your mind, all that X-Men sh*t can actually be done in reality. Atleast do some "research" on the thing before you disprove me as wrong. It's digging really deep into the whole paranormal thing. The basic point is there's alot more to the world than you really know.
 

Nighthawk

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ElStud you have yet to address the fact that the ouija board effect is adequately explained by the ideometer effect, as mentioned above. If you don't want to believe this explanation that's your choice, but clearly it's more reasonable than the idea that 'spirits' are choosing to spend eternity telling teenage girls who fancies who.

As to your 'we use less than 10% of our brains' statement, a little research would show you that this 'fact' is widely discredited and meaningless. Try this

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

In other words, the statement, "We use only 10% of our brains" is false; it's a myth. We use all of our brain. Let's look at the possible origins of this myth and the evidence that we use all of our brain.


Where Did the 10% Myth Begin?

The 10% statement may have been started with a misquote of Albert Einstein or the misinterpretation of the work of Pierre Flourens in the 1800s. Etc
Finally don't assume that those who scoff at ghosts or telekinesis are ignorant and need to research the area. The truth is that just a little research will show that none of this paranormal guff can be replicated under laboratory conditions, the US and Russia wasted billions trying to make this magic work and finally gave up, and the X-Men is not real.

When I was your age I was 'open-minded' about these issues, so I investigated and found the evidence is just a load of hooey. The best argument I can give is that if these things were real, the world would be a very different place. There would be (good, solid, replicatable) evidence everywhere. Instead there is almost exactly the amount of second-hand scary stories and misinterpreted data we might expect from our superstitious and wishful species.
 

ElStud

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And you believe everything scientist and the government tells you, which is your problem. But scientists and the government NEVER lie. A simple search on YouTube reveals several videos of actual Telekinesis. I don't care for your official research, because you know what, the officials probably don't want you to know. By believing everything that is spoonfed to you by the government, you become ignorant. There have been people filmed on video, manipulating objects that are inside glass. Yes, inside glass, no strings attached. Why don't you actually do some actual research before trying to talk to me about something that you know nothing about. If you don't know anything about the subject, don't try and act like you do.

There's even a topic on these forums about "Psychic Seduction" and more than one of the posters reveals that they've tried it and it works:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25992&highlight=psychic+seduction

But oh, the government and scientists never said anything about it, so it must not be true despite people having actually proven them wrong.
 

Nighthawk

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No one has less trust in the authorities than me. That you believe that thousands (millions?) of non-governmental scientists around the world would keep secret evidence we had super-powers does not prove they exist. I just want some evidence. Please link me to a video that proves telekinesis exists in a way a magician couldn't do the exact same trick. In fact anyone with an interest in magic can see how most psychics fool people, which is why none have ever claimed James Randi's million dollar prize. Do some research.

You present yourself as a seeker of truth and harangue others for ignorance, but when presented with solid arguments you ignore them. Do we use only 7% of our brain, as you claim? Prove it.
 

ElStud

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Nighthawk said:
No one has less trust in the authorities than me. That you believe that thousands (millions?) of non-governmental scientists around the world would keep secret evidence we had super-powers does not prove they exist. I just want some evidence. Please link me to a video that proves telekinesis exists in a way a magician couldn't do the exact same trick. In fact anyone with an interest in magic can see how most psychics fool people, which is why none have ever claimed James Randi's million dollar prize. Do some research.

You present yourself as a seeker of truth and harangue others for ignorance, but when presented with solid arguments you ignore them. Do we use only 7% of our brain, as you claim? Prove it.
You think they would really want us to know? This to the governments eyes is in the same vein as UFO's and they covered up Area 51.

Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jgMzcRxxEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbSepH8hnGg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyWcYTUNV0w&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mSd90RTB5M

It's not even a big deal dude. The way I see it there's a lot more proof out there that it's real and I'm personally not concerned with what you believe in because it's not right.

If you want to be like everyone else think that the world is really that simple, it's personally not my concern. I bet you think Dragons are fictional, however, they've found actual skeletons of real dragons.
 

Nighthawk

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I watched your videos and they are magic tricks as expected. I was with a magician friend the other day and he did the exact same dancing matchstick trick. Does he have super-powers?

It's pointless arguing with you because you believe whatever makes you feel excited and anti-authority. When your claims are disproven (7% of the brain) you ignore it and throw in a new claim as if that proves your last. Your riposte to this will presumably be along the lines 'yeah, but you are a sheep who believes what he's told, and what about Bigfoot he's real too.'

Do 'the authorities' cover up dragons too because of some reason or another?
 

ElStud

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Hey like I said man if you want to be a typical non believer of the paranormal like everyone else be my guest. You want to dismiss clear no strings proof as magic tricks? Not my problem.

Even I can't explain this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7EK7WxJilo&mode=related&search=

And I'd love to hear your explanation. What'd he do, clone himself? Hah. I'd like to figure out this illusion.
 

Nighthawk

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Dude, it's just another magic trick, by someone called Criss Angel, who like David Blaine and Uri Gellar use centuries old conjuring tricks (plus modern camera tricks) to fool you. And you are being fooled, as you will learn if you do the slightest bit of research.

I ask again - back up your claim we only use 7% of our brains. You can't, can you? And saying you no longer care doesn't fool anyone. We all know you went looking on the internet for proof only to find out that it was a myth spread by the fakers to the gullible.

Oh and I predicted your response pretty well, eh? I must be psychic.
 

Nighthawk

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Here's Criss Angel's website where you can buy a DVD explaining how to perform his 'street magic.' Or are you suggesting the man can teleport, but only when encased in a bin?

http://www.magical-tricks.com/criss_angelmindfreakseasonone.htm

A cursory search of the guy, from the comments in the YouTube you posted, got me his name and plenty of explanations (paid audience, editing) as to how he tricked you, and that he is an illusionist selling magic tricks. Why can't you manage the same?
 

ElStud

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Nice job double posting.
 

Deep Dish

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ElStud:
And you believe everything scientist and the government tells you, which is your problem. But scientists and the government NEVER lie. A simple search on YouTube reveals several videos of actual Telekinesis. I don't care for your official research, because you know what, the officials probably don't want you to know. By believing everything that is spoonfed to you by the government, you become ignorant. There have been people filmed on video, manipulating objects that are inside glass. Yes, inside glass, no strings attached. Why don't you actually do some actual research before trying to talk to me about something that you know nothing about. If you don't know anything about the subject, don't try and act like you do.

There's even a topic on these forums about "Psychic Seduction" and more than one of the posters reveals that they've tried it and it works:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthr...chic+seduction

But oh, the government and scientists never said anything about it, so it must not be true despite people having actually proven them wrong.
What an illuminating entry, but for all the wrong reasons. I delight in bludgeoning your entry with my machete into a bloody pulp.

Governments sometimes are untruthful and scientists sometimes are frauds. BUT...

During the Cold War, when Russian fighter jets penetrated our airspace and flew up the Mississippi River, the government honestly denied it was their aircraft. It was better for the general public to whimsically imagine they were witnessing alien UFOs, so relatively innocuous and silly, than to panic. Going back in history, when Roswell occurred, the government initially truthfully reported a downed weather balloon but then retracted the story; it was better for the public imagination to run amock and think "UFOs! UFOs! UFOs!" than for the Russians to know we were testing nuclear detonation detection devices. Groom Lake was kept secret not because the government cared about the general public not knowing what aircraft were being developed, but to prevent other countries from knowing. When documents are declassified and released under the Freedom of Information Act, they often are heavily redacted which can very easily misleadingly stir suspicions of a grander government cover-up. The mundane explanation behind the redactions is the government cannot afford to tip off other countries as to our agents, sources, and methodologies of foreign espionage. These are examples of actual legitimate conspiracies. Of course, sometimes there are actual illegitimate conspiracies, either to cover-up mistakes and embarassments--e.g. the intergalactic waste of time, money, and resources of the CIA's Stargate "remote viewing" project--or government misdeeds such as what was the syphillis experiment in Tuskegee, Alabama.

However, be all that as it may, those actual conspiracies leads people to falsely believe in imaginary conspiracies where none actually exists. The problem with conspiracy theories is there is a falsely placed burden of proof. The burden of proof is falsely placed upon the respondent (e.g. government officials) to prove there is not a conspiracy rather than the claimant (the theorist) to prove the conspiracy. The problem is you cannot prove a negative. Regardless how forthcoming is the respondent, the claimant can always contort a post hoc hypothesis and contend the denial is in continuation of the conspiracy. Thus, really, conspiracy theories have no burden of proof and thus are bad thinking. Conspiracy theories are better described as "conspiracy guesses." Notably, conspiracy theorists are characteristically full of questions but short on providing their own solid, accurate, reliable answers.

Science is the greatest invention in human history. One great tenant is a built-in bullsh*t detector to correct mistakes and eliminate snake oil frauds. When some scientists had claimed to accomplish cold fusion, the international scientific community exposed them as frauds by failing to reproduce the results under controlled conditions. Parapsychologists who "investigate" the paranormal love to denounce science as "limiting" and "political". In science, anyone is free to disagree but the disagreement must be convincing, thus why the scientific establishment is the establishment and why the fringe is ignored. After countless centuries, parapsychology still miserably fails to obtain any convincing results which are repeatable under controlled conditions where the possibility of cheating is eliminated. Sometimes genuine scientists are tricked by con artists--as the morally irreprehensible magician Uri Geller did to scientists back in the 1970's--but the system inevitably catches frauds and invalidates the results. Thus, parapsychology always has and always will be plagued by starting over from scratch.

Just listen to Vladimir Kryuchkov, the retired chief of the KGB of 17 years...
We have never received any proof whatsoever that UFOs or other supernatural phenomena actually exist.

The authorities asked me many times to prove or refute reports of this or that inexplicable incident on the planet. Most frequently I received requests concerning UFOs and yetis, the "snow people". I would commission our best specialists and agents to find out where the reports that worried society so much came from. In the end it always turned out to be pure imagination. Sometimes an ignorant observer would interpret an unfamiliar phenomenon in a mystical way, sometimes a perfectly ordinary event would be called supernatural to make news. Often the people would add the KGB knew about the supernatural phenomenon, but wanted to keep it secret.

With full responsibility I have to state never ever during the long period of my work with the intelligence service was anything really supernatural spotted, either in Russia or in any other country. When I say "other country", I rely on the information from the highest officials, military, research and of course the intelligence agencies of foreign states.

The point is, in every "important" country presidents, prime ministers and secret service chiefs requested investigations into resonant abnormal incidents. And in every case, in each country, competent people would give one and the same answer—no. I have personally read copies of these reports.

I finally came to the conclusion that, for better or for worse, there is nothing supernatural on the Earth.

....

By the way, the Americans tried conducting so-called "parapsychology experiments", but made no progress. Neither did our own research institutes in this respect, although we also conducted some research. There are more exaggerations than achievements here.
Finally...
There's actually been a lot of research done on it and scientist do admit that humans don't use 100% of their brain power(Infact they believe we only use 7%, ONLY 7%).
Bullshiiiiiiiit...
 
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Mr.Positive

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Nighthawk said:
ElStud you have yet to address the fact that the ouija board effect is adequately explained by the ideometer effect....
Did you mean idiotmeter effect?
 

ElStud

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Deep Dish said:
What an illuminating entry, but for all the wrong reasons. I delight in bludgeoning your entry with my machete into a bloody pulp.

Governments sometimes are untruthful and scientists sometimes are frauds. BUT...

During the Cold War, when Russian fighter jets penetrated our airspace and flew up the Mississippi River, the government honestly denied it was their aircraft. It was better for the general public to whimsically imagine they were witnessing alien UFOs, so relatively innocuous and silly, than to panic. Going back in history, when Roswell occurred, the government initially truthfully reported a downed weather balloon but then retracted the story; it was better for the public imagination to run amock and think "UFOs! UFOs! UFOs!" than for the Russians to know we were testing nuclear detonation detection devices. Groom Lake was kept secret not because the government cared about the general public not knowing what aircraft were being developed, but to prevent other countries from knowing. When documents are declassified and released under the Freedom of Information Act, they often are heavily redacted which can very easily misleadingly stir suspicions of a grander government cover-up. The mundane explanation behind the redactions is the government cannot afford to tip off other countries as to our agents, sources, and methodologies of foreign espionage. These are examples of actual legitimate conspiracies. Of course, sometimes there are actual illegitimate conspiracies, either to cover-up mistakes and embarassments--e.g. the intergalactic waste of time, money, and resources of the CIA's Stargate "remote viewing" project--or government misdeeds such as what was the syphillis experiment in Tuskegee, Alabama.

However, be all that as it may, those actual conspiracies leads people to falsely believe in imaginary conspiracies where none actually exists. The problem with conspiracy theories is there is a falsely placed burden of proof. The burden of proof is falsely placed upon the respondent (e.g. government officials) to prove there is not a conspiracy rather than the claimant (the theorist) to prove the conspiracy. The problem is you cannot prove a negative. Regardless how forthcoming is the respondent, the claimant can always contort a post hoc hypothesis and contend the denial is in continuation of the conspiracy. Thus, really, conspiracy theories have no burden of proof and thus are bad thinking. Conspiracy theories are better described as "conspiracy guesses." Notably, conspiracy theorists are characteristically full of questions but short on providing their own solid, accurate, reliable answers.

Science is the greatest invention in human history. One great tenant is a built-in bullsh*t detector to correct mistakes and eliminate snake oil frauds. When some scientists had claimed to accomplish cold fusion, the international scientific community exposed them as frauds by failing to reproduce the results under controlled conditions. Parapsychologists who "investigate" the paranormal love to denounce science as "limiting" and "political". In science, anyone is free to disagree but the disagreement must be convincing, thus why the scientific establishment is the establishment and why the fringe is ignored. After countless centuries, parapsychology still miserably fails to obtain any convincing results which are repeatable under controlled conditions where the possibility of cheating is eliminated. Sometimes genuine scientists are tricked by con artists--as the morally irreprehensible magician Uri Geller did to scientists back in the 1970's--but the system inevitably catches frauds and invalidates the results. Thus, parapsychology always has and always will be plagued by starting over from scratch.

Just listen to Vladimir Kryuchkov, the retired chief of the KGB of 17 years...Finally...Bullshiiiiiiiit...
You're dodging the fact that their is tons of sh*t out there to back up the fact that this sh*t is real. There's not one page, not 100 pages, not 100,000 pages, but millions of pages out there that have proof of the existance of psychic energy. Most of the people who will tell you it's wrong, never even TRIED doing the stuff and that's why they can just simply pass it off as an illusion, they haven't actually tried it. It's like saying "Track sucks" when you haven't even played track before. They try to dismiss it as fake, without even trying to see if it works. And the people who HAVE tried to see if it works, have gotten it to work. There are millions of sites out there with proof that the psychic thing is real and a good number of sites out there that will teach you psychic techniques. I find it hard to believe that millions of sites are lying. Besides, there's VIDEO evidence. Ever heard of Nina Kulagina? She was a Russian psychic who was able to move things with her mind. Scientist TRIED to explain the phenomena but COULDN'T explain it. Scientist did a test and noted that at the time she was using those powers she used 4 times the brain power that the mind usually uses. There were no strings attached.

Uri Gellar is what we call a fake, a fraud, a phony, he is NOT a real psychic. But that doesn't automatically mean that everyone else who claims to be a Psychic is. Yeah, there are illusionist who can fool you, but there are also people doing the real thing. There are people out there who can truly levitate, truly move things with their minds and all that stuff. Ever heard of Taoism? Chinese Monks have the ability to meditate in mid air. Even the fact that several average people have the ability to see stuff in there dreams before it happens in real life is a bit psychic. So only 10%, maybe not, but definitely not 100%.
 

Deep Dish

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Yes, all psychics who have ever lived and are ever to live are either criminal frauds or self-delusional. Sylvia Browne, John Edward, James van Praagh, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and every obscure psychic in China, Japan, Russia, the US, ad infinitum. None are The Real McCoy. There are scientists like Gary Schwartz of the University of Arizona and Rupert Sheldrake whose "research" supports the paranormal but are not taken seriously by the scientific community for good reasons.
Ever heard of Nina Kulagina? She was a Russian psychic who was able to move things with her mind. Scientist TRIED to explain the phenomena but COULDN'T explain it. Scientist did a test and noted that at the time she was using those powers she used 4 times the brain power that the mind usually uses. There were no strings attached.
...except she used "a very fine nylon thread." She also pulled the stunt of reading letters on a wall behind her while she was blindfolded, but peeking through blindfolds is an easy conjuring trick and she would place her hand before her eyes for long periods of time. "To a conjuror, the method is obvious: She brings her right hand up before her eyes, then it dips into her pocket, emerges and is casually shown empty. This suggests that she was peeking into a small mirror held in that hand, then the mirror was dumped when she'd had her glance. As if to verify this theory, she read off the cards——and even one two-digit number——in reverse order. Certainly there was no reason for her to have held her hand before her eyes, except to accomplish the trick as described."

This is a real problem for parapsychology.
Excerpt from Wikipedia:

Many skeptical individuals and organizations, such as the James Randi Educational Foundation and the Italian Committee for the Investigation of Claims on the Paranormal(CICAP) express strong skepticism regarding the truth of these claims. It is noted that the long preparation times and uncontrolled environments (such as hotel rooms) in which the experiments took place left much potential for trickery. Skeptics have argued that many of Kulagina's feats could easily be performed by one practiced in sleight of hand, through means such as cleverly concealed or disguised threads, small pieces of magnetic metal, or mirrors. They further point to the fact that no sleight of hand experts appear to have ever been present during experiments, and that the Cold War-era Soviet Union had an obvious motive for falsifying or exaggerating results in the potential propaganda value in appearing to win a "Psi Race" analogous to the concurrent Space Race or arms race.
As Vladimir Kryuchkov said, more exaggeration than achievements.
There are people out there who can truly levitate, truly move things with their minds and all that stuff. Ever heard of Taoism? Chinese Monks have the ability to meditate in mid air.
Get them into a controlled environment under a testing protocol which eliminates the possibilty of cheating and they will be awarded with $1 million and a permanent place in the history books. But yet, no one wants to take the test. Hmmm.
Even the fact that several average people have the ability to see stuff in there dreams before it happens in real life is a bit psychic. So only 10%, maybe not, but definitely not 100%.
The Law of Large Numbers. Statistically rare events become likely when done often enough. There are 6 billion people on earth who each dream about 5-6 dreams a night; even the United States alone has 300 million people. On any given night, every possible event is dreamt by millions of people, just by the laws of statistics. So many individual events happen in our daily lives that it would be a miracle if people DIDN'T dream of events before they happened. Plus, there's also the shoehorning of events into what "counts," molding and contorting events into fitting the prophecy. You also remember the hits and forget all misses when it never happens. I once dreamt a terrorist planted a bomb in the sewer in front of my house, and the next morning there was the subway/bus terrorist attacks in London. It was merely a coincidence. After all, I never had preminitions about the Indian Ocean tsunami, September 11th, the Columbia space shuttle disaster, or any other horrific major event. But all it takes is a few delusional people with a poor sense of statistics to get onto Oprah for this inane and mundane event to take on supernatural proportions.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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I just got ahold of this video tape that my friends say if I watch it I'll die in 7 days. Gonna sit down with some popcorn and watch it tonight,..

:whistle:
 
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