dateline NBC - sexless marriages

[Delta]

fri jul 14 2006 - nbc

there was a story on tonight about sexless marriages and what happens when marriages disintegrate.

interesting in that it is a very VERY UNROMANTIC VIEW of the mundane aspect of the relationship between men and women... the aspect of relationships that you lose sight of when you're thinking of pornographic sex but you catch glimpses of now and then in married couples young and old when men and women RESENT EACH OTHER.

interesting - more than an explanation of why the sex ain't hot, it became a neat little expose on the NATURE OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF MAN WITH WOMEN.

sex became almost a byproduct - and as most therapists would agree, a mere barometer of the relationship.
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GENERAL PROBLEM:

1. men become dependent on their wives and the men expose and share weakness, self doubt and insecurity, expecting understanding and VALIDATION from their wives. in essence, asking the women to make them feel better about themselves.

sometimes, they even look at the getting of sex as a sign and validation of their own masculinity.

2. women are perhaps NATURALLY UNCOMMUNICATIVE when they become disappointed with their man. instead of telling him or anyone what is wrong, they simply become emotionally and sexually unavailable.

women do not want to tell their men to 'be a man' or 'suck it up'... this is NOT THEIR JOB! they don't want to tell their man, the man should ALREADY KNOW. women do not want to EDUCATE their men...

and while it seems extremely frustrating that women don't just pipe up, i can imagine it is precisely because they know that NO MAN WANTS TO HEAR SUCH THINGS FROM HIS WOMAN!

the women then are put in UNTENABLE POSITIONS and so they just clam up, freeze up and build a wall around themselves.
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ANALYSIS

1. there are a lot of men out there who are not very experienced with women and they come to a relationship (particularly marriage) with very idealistic ideas... ideas like "she's my best friend".

IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT WE UNDERSTAND THAT THAT IS COMPLETE BS.

NO SHE IS NOT!

you can share weakness and vulnerability with your best friend and expect him to give you advice, prop you up, give you a pep talk, encourage you and be a crutch to lean on from time to time (though hopefully not often).

THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH A WOMAN.

the "EROS" relationship is not the UNCONDITIONAL love of god or parent (in greek, "AGAPE"). she is JUDGING YOU constantly as a man. (just as you are constantly judging her appearance - especially if she starts letting herself go). again, the love between man and woman is NEVER EVER COMPLETELY UNCONDITIONAL.

she CANNOT be your strength. that is LITERALLY NOT HER JOB and sooner or later, it will be as irksome for the man to receive such support from his woman as it is for her to give it.

you can NEVER EVER ask a woman for HELP or SUPPORT or VALIDATION to make you feel better about YOURSELF!

this is the biggest problem of men with women even in the dating scene: when a man approaches a woman with hat in hand, he is asking her, begging her to help him feel better about himself. he is failing to understand that not only will she rebuff him, the arrangement he is seeking is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE.

it does not work for her and sooner or later (sooner if the guy is not just completely whupped), it will not work for the guy and he WILL begin to resent her.

even during HARD TIMES, you NEVER share your vulnerabilities, doubts and insecurities with your woman. that's what friends are for.

EVEN if she thinks you're an idiot, even if you don't believe it in your heart in the SLIGHTEST your attitude is ALWAYS, "this is fine. we're good. everything's gonna work out."

i have a feeling she'll sense your weaknesses and vulnerabilities anyway... but i also have a sense that she'll love you more for NOT SHARING THEM. and appreciate not having to be a man's mother.

i think vince vaugn... your attitude is always like that. putting and keeping on a facade - FRONTING - with your woman is impossible to avoid.

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side note: this is why a man always has a plan for the date instead of asking "what do you want to do?".... that is ASKING FOR HER HELP TO WIN HER. seen in the bright light of day, that is just patently LAME!

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of course, most of this information has been posted in bits and pieces before... but the tv program really helped articulate for me the whys and wherefores of all the things that we believe and teach. i really kinda understand it better now.

neat.

delta

 

[Hitman10000]

*bump*

 

[Delta]

oh yeah,

it also reminds me that most of us (recovering)afcs that are desperate for some taint have SIMPLIFIED matters substantially... the women in our heads are CARICATURES.

real life women can end up being an unbelievable thorn in your side and pain in your ass....

few things are as vexing for a man than to have a woman RESENT you! yeeeeuuugh....

one thing to think of to maybe tame our desire.... as in all things, the reality can be pretty fing ugly.

delta

 

[Blusher]

even during HARD TIMES, you NEVER share your vulnerabilities, doubts and insecurities with your woman. that's what friends are for.

Wait a minute... If you start getting serious about starting a family with a woman, you'd better ask yourself if she's gonna "part of the crew or the cargo" as Doc Love would put it.

If you find, she bails out as soon as you're going through a difficult professional situation or if you have health concerns and you have to keep a smiling face through it all so that she doesn't start resenting you... well, bro you'd better off alone anyway...

The way you describe it is pretty much my definition of "fair weather friends" not that of a woman in love. A woman in love would do just about anything for her man even when the going gets rough.

But, I do agree that whining, complaining constantly, being undecisive and bitter are major turn-offs. It's alright to share and explain to her what kind of challenge you have to face as long you also explain what solution you have in mind and how you want to work it out. If she's truly cares, she'll offer her help and support wether it's going down the street to copy some documents, get your suit a the dry cleaner while you prepare for an interview etc.

The support of your wife/GF can be very helpful but always bear in mind that she's not your shrink or your mother.

 

[Delta]

seriously though, i think that's what friends are for.

and your analogy that in this formulation, women are nothing but "FAIR WEATHER FRIENDS" is absolutely APT!

and i'm beginning to think that the one of the PRIMARY DIFFERENCES between a DJ and an AFC is that the DJ NEVER LETS HIS GUARD DOWN with women - they are always the "enemy", the "adversary", the "object of the game" whereas the AFC actually CONFIDES in the woman, improperly humanizes her and expects her to understand and hold his hand.

DJs understand that women must be CONQUERED to an extent. AFCs humanize too much and expect to come to an agreement. DJs WAGE WAR while AFCs are trying to come to a DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION.

there is indeed a WAR OF THE SEXES. all out, no holds barred, take no prisoners, scorch their earth WAR.

in a big way, WOMEN ARE THE ENEMY. why do you think we f them? (wow, i love that! i might add it to my signature!) women are truly the alien and the other. we objectify them perhaps because to men, they will always somewhat BE OBJECTS... objects of the game to be won and kept. but never to relate to completely TRANSPARENTLY and OPENLY.

they are NOT ON OUR SIDE!!! and the moment we let them in, the moment they start resenting how imperfect we are or rejecting us entirely.

i think what you're saying is right blusher... but i think the line between confiding in your woman properly and making her your shrink is a fine line that most men cannot navigate correctly.

GIVEN THAT, it might be better to never let them in.... never be as open to them as you would with a friend.

but gdamnit, she better not gain a motherfing OUNCE!

delta

 

[Ace of Flames]

This thread is very detailed, and I'm sure I'd have a better response if I thought about it, but all I can think of is this:

A sexless marriage, as the title says, would be very boring. Its all the annoying parts of having a woman in your life, without the biggest benefit. I'm never gonna drop my DJ front when I get married.

I think another big problem is, most people, not just guys, see marriage as the end. Its like they reached the goal, they're in the endzone! No more hard work, now we get to sit back and enjoy the rewards. WRONG! Marriage is just the beginning. Its the biggest challenge there is in a relationship, and maintaining it is a full-time job. You haven't "won" the preverbial war by getting married, its just another battlefield. A battlefield with more landmines. Watch your step.

 

[Steg]

In a nutshell they think their wife is thier new mom and go to being pansies.

 

[Blusher]

Delta, I am at loss for words there. Your post is apalling.

Did you seek help for your paranoia problem or maybe you were raised in violent family, I don't know. Whatever the case, I feel for you, I am serious, it must be terrible living in a world of fear and antagonism like you do. I am not everything is all rosy and nice out there but you push the war analogy way too far.

In your comments you alienate no less than 50% percent of the human population on this planet. You may also make the picture even a bit bleaker, after all the remaining 50% are males competing for the same women, the same jobs and material possessions, they not on your side either. They're competition.

Man, Life is a war and you fighting it alone.

Lighten up, for God's sake! :flowers:

Why are you so afraid of a pretty girl? Is she going to shred you to pieces?
Is she going to eat you alive? Are you so afraid of rejection?

I mean, we know it wroooooong to mistake your woman for your shrink but if you have to keep every ****ing thing bottled up inside, you're creating frustration. Hence the need to come to a forum to spill your guts like you did.

 

[Delta]

well,

it might sound extreme for someone who's internalized the dynamics already. but if you REALLY take apart all the aspects of that, it might be more like the war analogy than it seemed.

(eros love is SELFISH, we mercilessly next, we mercilessly use women as stepping stones, they use us in the same way to fight boredom and kill time, we both create emotions in others without too much care of what we do, and none of us show any mercy to ugs and afcs that we deem shouldn't even be on the field of battle to begin with... i dunno what world you live in but this relationship stuff feels pretty cutthroat to me)

and for the afcs who HAVE NOT LEARNED not to open up to women or why, i think it is just as adamant as it needs to be. it is NOT that they're just not your therapist or your mother.

NOT THAT EASY. honestly, it's that THEY CAN NEVER BE YOUR CLOSEST FRIEND... you can never be as open and honest to them as you could to even a close male friend. and THAT'S the thing afcs have gotta get a handle on... all the ones who are looking for the girl that will be their best friend....

if you find that life is easier and everything drops in your lap, i'm really happy for you and i wish i could have your life for a while.

on this side of the trenches though, it's pretty tooth and nail.
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but i think what i wrote is more accurate than it might seem... kinda like those mosaic pictures. it might not make sense to scrutinize everything literally, but if you kinda blur your eyes and get a sense of it...

i stand by it... it's pretty apt.

delta

p.s. you're not being honest. YES - beautiful women WILL SHRED YOU TO PIECES.... there are few things more traumatic in life than bad break ups. and i don't care how much of a dj you are, if you let yourself care for someone, they have the potential to do TREMENDOUS damage. he!! yes they will rip you apart.

the burden of the dj is to become inured to it. but let's not be disingenuous or frivolous and misleading.... it can all be DEADLY SERIOUS.

i'm not that afraid of a rejection from a stranger but i gotta admit, rejection from someone who you've formed a strong bond with... man, that's stuff that'll thin the hair of the toughest men.

the point is NOT that there is no danger. danger is EVERYWHERE... the point is that despite the danger, it's worth playing.

 

[Ace of Flames]

This relationship stuff IS cutthroat. Divorce rates just get higher all the time, successful marriages past 10 years are harder and harder to find. Kids get caught in the middle and families are torn apart. Husbands beat their wives, wives chop off their man's manhood (lol). Its insane.

That stuff is kind of over our heads here though. We deal with the process waaaay before that. And even here at the basic levels, its still cutthroat. You get boring to your girl, she cheats on you. That's your fault, but its still sucks.

Even with all this, its still worth it. And I'm sure you'd agree with me on that.

 

[Blusher]

Sorry folks, This looooong!

I dunno what world you live in but this relationship stuff feels pretty cutthroat to me

I guess we're talking abour the same world but our perceptions differ. Unless something major happens, I'd say Life is only as hard as you make it.

and for the afcs who HAVE NOT LEARNED not to open up to women or why, i think it is just as adamant as it needs to be. it is NOT that they're just not your therapist or your mother

They have to learn here what fathers used to teach by example in previous generations. But there's always the risk of going overboard and just living with that constant nagging fear in back of their mind: "Am I being too AFC?, Am I a wuss? Is she going to respect me less because I said 'I love you'?"

I say: once you know the dating-survival basics , now go out there, try to find a nice girl and have some fun.

NOT THAT EASY. honestly, it's that THEY CAN NEVER BE YOUR CLOSEST FRIEND... you can never be as open and honest to them as you could to even a close male friend. and THAT'S the thing afcs have gotta get a handle on... all the ones who are looking for the girl that will be their best friend....

My father and mother are more than just good friends, they just couldn't live without that bond they've created. They know each other like no one else on this planet and they've loved each other for 35 years now... Same goes for the parents of my girlfriend. It's not Walt Disney everyday but they sure do make each other happy.

on this side of the trenches though, it's pretty tooth and nail.

Look around you and try to see it for what it is: Life really is just a passing moment, so pick your battles carefully. The way I see it, you run around shooting round after round til you run out of ammo. Then something really tragic happens in your Life, God forbid, and then you'll start thinking
you wasted a lot of your precious youth and energy looking at the world as a battlezone. People only become trustworthy when you start trusting them.

p.s. you're not being honest. YES - beautiful women WILL SHRED YOU TO PIECES.... there are few things more traumatic in life than bad break ups. and i don't care how much of a dj you are, if you let yourself care for someone, they have the potential to do TREMENDOUS damage. he!! yes they will rip you apart.

There are way more traumatic things in life. One trip to the ER can fill you with images that will remain with you for the rest of your life. It also puts things into perspective a bit.

But OK, I agree with you. I have been there myself, I got dumped, lost a few pounds, picked up smoking again, ordered pizzas every night. It sucked. It really sucked, I even cried like I hadn't cried since someone close to me had passed away.

But then it goes away.

You heal, you open up again and you start enjoying your freedom.

So if anything, it makes you stronger. Of course it takes a few months, but even these months of solitude and sadness are a blessing in disguise in that they teach you so much about yourself. You allow yourself time for introspection, you allow yourself to feel sad and explore that gloomy part of your personnality until you get sick of it.

i'm not that afraid of a rejection from a stranger but i gotta admit, rejection from someone who you've formed a strong bond with... man, that's stuff that'll thin the hair of the toughest men.

Yes, it is bloody tough when that happens. The world you had created suddenly doesn't quite makes sense anymore and you have to readjust to that new reality. Just writing about it right now sends a chill down my spine. :nervous:

But are you telling me that you gonna make your life miserable now and live in constant paranoia out of fear of getting dumped? Live what you have to live, go out there and meet girls, pick one that will respect you and if she doesn't you'll bite the bullet and take it like a man. It will suck but it won't kill you.

the point is NOT that there is no danger. danger is EVERYWHERE... the point is that despite the danger, it's worth playing.

Agreed. Just don't ruin precious things by thinking every girl is your enemy and all they want is to use you. Has any woman ever done something nice just to make you happy? Did you ever wake up and found her looking at you with a tender smile on her face? Didn't that make you feel good?

Now, that's why it's worth playing!

This relationship stuff IS cutthroat. Divorce rates just get higher all the time, successful marriages past 10 years are harder and harder to find. Kids get caught in the middle and families are torn apart. .

Yeah, the world's a bad place to be. Just this morning I heard of more casualties in Irak. It sucks but I don't live in Bagdad so I don't let it bring me down more than it should. I go my way the best I can without carrying the weight of the world on my shoulder.

I am positive about my ability to start a happy family at some point. Just for the kick of proving statistics wrong.

Husbands beat their wives, wives chop off their man's manhood (lol). Its insane

I can't even start to think that I will ever beat my wife or have my penis chopped off by my gf. Come on they are some psycho running free but let's not generalize too much! :crazy:

You get boring to your girl, she cheats on you. That's your fault, but its still sucks.

Yeah, they are a lot of unfaithful girls out there and it's priceless wisdom to
be aware that they're not angels. YET, you cannot let yourselves be obsessed by that fear of becoming boring to her and/or being cheated on.

Fear is a debilitating feeling and one that can ruin a relationship in no time.

 

[Rondavu]

Delta, you were right to a certain extent. For the most part you're insane, and way out of touch with the human condition.

Confiding in a woman doesn't exclude her opinion of you as a real man. You can have both. Maybe you're not aware of how complex humans are. You can do, say, want, expect anything from a woman who you make feel like a woman. That includes everything.

 

[Delta]

oh, another thing that a lot of AFCs have a tendency to feel is:

"tell me how i should be and i'll be like that."

and basically, they express that to the woman. that's death. to women, the attitude is basically, "you should already know."

that is a recurring and constant motif.

and that is why rituals like the one we're participating in here in this forum, of men conspiring together against the wiles and whims of women, will, should, MUST be a lifelong endeavor....

delta

 

[KarmaSutra]

Confiding in a woman doesn't exclude her opinion of you as a real man.

No, but what it does is strip away at the fabric of mystery which she clings so tightly. You can't be a blubbering idiot and expect a women to feel anything but apathetic towards you.

 

[everywomanshero]

I'm mostly staying out of this one, this stuff is really high level and easy for anything I say to be misinterpreted. If asked whether guys are better off risking being seen as weak or strong, I'm leaning towards strong. I've overdone both at times, but you really have to in order to learn the boundries.

One thing that I constantely see men doing is giving away all the power hoping it will swoon the women. I estimate that this works about 0.00001% of the time in the long run. An example would be marrying without a prenup in a state that recognizes them. This just doesn't make sense for a guy with a good financial record marrying a woman that does not work. It's definitely giving up power hoping to buy loyalty in exchange. I find this to be a very bad belief system. Money is a big deal to most people. If she leaves, you're a lot better off being able to buy yourself a big phatty trip to get over her than broke and working 2 jobs to support her for the next 18 years. Don't think women don't know this. OTOH, I think guys need to be really generous, giving souls that add value to womens' lives and don't think all women are out to get them all the time. Women are very loving creatures, they are great to be around in a way that guy buddies just can't replace. They are our travel companions, our lovers, our babies mommas, and they take damn good care of us most of the time. However, I think it is wise to take precautions, because the court system is very biased against men and women know this. The worse belief system of all is one that treats women as suspects or constantely anticipates a sneak attack. I've been around guys like this and it's obvious even to another guy. OTOH, most "nice guys" are suckers and always let scarcity mentality push them into things that leave them broke and lonely while paying the woman big bucks