Chaos in LTR: Why a serene LTR will end?

[BaronOfHair]

Why an LTR(Serene or otherwise)will end... Because impermance is the only constant in life

 

[BaronOfHair]

https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/2m72x0
Why is it that the more women are treated badly, then immediately well, then badly again, then well again, in short in a loop, they feel better rather than in a state in which they are treated serenely and well by a healthy man?

If by "treated well" you mean "Dude was a real life Ted Mosby ", this is the equivalent of mistaking Derek Chauvin for a stalwart champion of civil rights

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

So you trust a women when she talks? If she says "A". usually it's "A" and not "B"?

Trust? What does trust have to do with anything?

I may have mentioned this already several times on this forum: "Never take what women/anyone says at face value." Don't focus on the words, focus on the meaning.



Language is rarely used in the literal sense. Most of what people say is figurative. "That kills me, haha." No, it's not killing you.

When a woman tells you, "I love you till the ends of the earth" both of you know she speaking figuratively, since the earth is a globe, so there are no ends to the earth. Only idiots/flat-earthers take what a woman says literally.

Some men call this 'w0manese', but I just call it 'reading people'. If you stop listening to the words and listen to the tone and someone's non-verbal cues, you can see that their words are often unrelated or even contradicting what they mean to say.

Women tend to avoid confrontation. One way of conflict avoidance is to speak indirectly. Like using innuendo / double entendres to signal that she wants to have sex with you without telling you directly 'Hey, let's have sex'. Experienced men have no trouble reading the indirect speech correctly and act on it.

And that's what you should focus on, if you want to be a 'Don Juan'.

 

[jhonny9546]

Trust? What does trust have to do with anything?

I may have mentioned this already several times on this forum: "Never take what women/anyone says at face value." Don't focus on the words, focus on the meaning.

View attachment 12465

Language is rarely used in the literal sense. Most of what people say is figurative. "That kills me, haha." No, it's not killing you.

When a woman tells you, "I love you till the ends of the earth" both of you know she speaking figuratively, since the earth is a globe, so there are no ends to the earth. Only idiots/flat-earthers take what a woman says literally.

Some men call this 'w0manese', but I just call it 'reading people'. If you stop listening to the words and listen to the tone and someone's non-verbal cues, you can see that their words are often unrelated or even contradicting what they mean to say.

Women tend to avoid confrontation. One way of conflict avoidance is to speak indirectly. Like using innuendo / double entendres to signal that she wants to have sex with you without telling you directly 'Hey, let's have sex'. Experienced men have no trouble reading the indirect speech correctly and act on it.

And that's what you should focus on, if you want to be a 'Don Juan'.

Don't touch me with those topics... I love this things!
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Do men learn this through real experience, or do they need to know the theory first?
So they tell you to be a good and deep listener, but in reality, do you need to mute your ear and pay attention to what's happening on the other side of communication?
What I mean is, if a woman or just a human being comes to you saying something, how do you dare to read the nonverbal cues while understanding the meaning of their verbal request simultaneously?
-
Btw, this is an approach style you should have as default with anyone right?
In the meanwhile you're ready to read people, you should also present yourself as non "autistic", so you should also be in a good posture, frame, and blabla everything else.

How do you reach this level? Are there any activities or professional fields which would help to forge this behaviour? (maybe "acting", or "tourist guide", or ?)

This is a very interesting topic, thanks for mentioning

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Do men learn this through real experience, or do they need to know the theory first?

Mostly through actual experience talking with women, but I'm sure there are plenty of books on communication that could help you.

So they tell you to be a good and deep listener, but in reality, do you need to mute your ear and pay attention to what's happening on the other side of communication?

No, you need to become an active listener. Like a therapist or an interviewer.
Her: "I got really confused about that."
You: "What was it that confused you?"
Her: "I just didn't think she'd react that way, you know?"
You: "How did you expect her to react?"
You get them to talk about themselves by not answering their questions but by getting them to answer why they pose the question.

What I mean is, if a woman or just a human being comes to you saying something, how do you dare to read the nonverbal cues while understanding the meaning of their verbal request simultaneously?

I think you feel like you have to answer her questions. It's better to make her understand the futility of her questions by getting down to why she's asking the question.
Take one of those ubiquitous questions:
Her: "So, how many girlfriends have you had?"
You: "What do you hope my answer will tell you?"
Her: "You're being evasive. Why don't you just answer the question?"
You: "Because the answer is irrelevant if the question seeks irrelevant information. Are you really interested in the quantity or in the quality? You should ask better questions. What are you looking for?"
Et cetera.

Btw, this is an approach style you should have as default with anyone right?

No, this is how I am. Whenever someone asks me a question, I wonder why and what they want to know.
But it depends on the question. If a woman asks me for directions to the railway station, I don't question why. I just tell her how to get there.

How do you reach this level? Are there any activities or professional fields which would help to forge this behaviour? (maybe "acting", or "tourist guide", or ?)

Any work that brings you in contact with 'the public' will provide ample opportunity to learn human psychology if you care to pay attention. Tourist guide would be better than acting, although performing with a small theatre group will teach you a lot about the audience (and how to hold their attention).

 

[Divorced w 3]

I can tell you that any time you’re dealing with a woman that has daddy issues, anxiety or whatever else, they outwardly don’t want you to be upset and difficult but their wiring wants it, which is obviously a shame but it keeps them coming back. The woman I am seeing now has a screw loose like all my former women do, which is why I can say this… because obviously I do too and like attracts like.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

All women try to emote men, they want your attention and they want to form an emotional connection.

The damaged/wild/passionate/bat****crazy ones just have a different way to go about getting what they want. Once you figured out how to handle their drama, they can be quite fun and not exhausting at all.

You have to be a genuine tease though.

 

[jhonny9546]

Mostly through actual experience talking with women, but I'm sure there are plenty of books on communication that could help you.


No, you need to become an active listener. Like a therapist or an interviewer.
Her: "I got really confused about that."
You: "What was it that confused you?"
Her: "I just didn't think she'd react that way, you know?"
You: "How did you expect her to react?"
You get them to talk about themselves by not answering their questions but by getting them to answer why they pose the question.


I think you feel like you have to answer her questions. It's better to make her understand the futility of her questions by getting down to why she's asking the question.
Take one of those ubiquitous questions:
Her: "So, how many girlfriends have you had?"
You: "What do you hope my answer will tell you?"
Her: "You're being evasive. Why don't you just answer the question?"
You: "Because the answer is irrelevant if the question seeks irrelevant information. Are you really interested in the quantity or in the quality? You should ask better questions. What are you looking for?"
Et cetera.


No, this is how I am. Whenever someone asks me a question, I wonder why and what they want to know.
But it depends on the question. If a woman asks me for directions to the railway station, I don't question why. I just tell her how to get there.


Any work that brings you in contact with 'the public' will provide ample opportunity to learn human psychology if you care to pay attention. Tourist guide would be better than acting, although performing with a small theatre group will teach you a lot about the audience (and how to hold their attention).

Thanks! May would it be possible to know books and resources that will actually help this?
I know understand what you mean, I always have people ask me question, and me to give an answer to them, just because I am more of a "technical" person.
A friend I have, always make the girl asking the question, another question, but chaning/pitching his voice tone to make it look like "playfull" or like talking to a little girl.
I always thought that too be very childish behaviour, but I never understood how he kept so many women around him. He have this from default.

 

[jhonny9546]

All women try to emote men, they want your attention and they want to form an emotional connection.

The damaged/wild/passionate/bat****crazy ones just have a different way to go about getting what they want. Once you figured out how to handle their drama, they can be quite fun and not exhausting at all.

You have to be a genuine tease though.

Man.. i wish I've learn and applied this!!
(Not only for profit, but just to see how I can make another human being comfortable, happy to be in my presence)

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Don't touch me with those topics... I love this things!
-
Do men learn this through real experience, or do they need to know the theory first?
So they tell you to be a good and deep listener, but in reality, do you need to mute your ear and pay attention to what's happening on the other side of communication?
What I mean is, if a woman or just a human being comes to you saying something, how do you dare to read the nonverbal cues while understanding the meaning of their verbal request simultaneously?
-
Btw, this is an approach style you should have as default with anyone right?
In the meanwhile you're ready to read people, you should also present yourself as non "autistic", so you should also be in a good posture, frame, and blabla everything else.

How do you reach this level? Are there any activities or professional fields which would help to forge this behaviour? (maybe "acting", or "tourist guide", or ?)

This is a very interesting topic, thanks for mentioning

Without experience you have no idea how to apply theories you read about and so you will apply these wrongly then get frustrated because they don't work the way you expect.

This is half of the issues guys on the forum post about...

Misapplied concepts due to lack of understanding context or when/how to apply them properly.

They actually end up hurting your chances more than if you simply didn't apply them to begin with when applied wrongly and can send you down many years of not understanding why "doing things the right way" in your mind don't work...

Unless you actually learn to adjust and take the live and valuable feedback you are getting you will end up jaded and angry and blame women for all of these issues when they are really your own you created thru misapplication of principles.

That describes 50% of guys on this forum.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

... like talking to a little girl.
I always thought that too be very childish behaviour, but I never understood how he kept so many women around him. He have this from default.

He's a 'Daddy', which attracts a certain kind of (young) woman, often called 'babygirl' or 'little'. Women probably enjoy being around him because they can shirk responsibility and act like teenagers around him.

 

[member162951]

Why is it that the more women are treated badly, then immediately well, then badly again, then well again, in short in a loop, they feel better rather than in a state in which they are treated serenely and well by a healthy man?

^^It's called intermittent reinforcement and when utilized properly, it can keep a relationship fresh and exciting.

In my opinion, but keep in mind, I DO have "issues" which I fully admit and own. I can’t think of one person who doesn't, at least on some level, and if they say they don't they're lying.

Anyway, It's like playing the slot machine at Vegas, you never know when you're gonna get the good stuff! It's keeps you on your toes and your adrenaline pumping. It can be addictive which is why it's difficult to break away and if they do, why they return.

I agree with @Divorced w 3 , like attracts like. And I admire him for owning his role, that he has his own 'screw loose' (his words) which is why he attracts such girls.

Most men here don't own their part, they just blame the woman calling her 'damaged' or whatever. It takes two, and it's important to look in the mirror at yourself too.

For me, it's gotten to the point where I don't hide my issues anymore, I've taken the time to understand where they stem from and yes it was my childhood which was quite chaotic, that's actually a good word for it!

It is part of my wiring and not sure that will ever change or tbh if I even want it to!

I just accept it and deal with it best I can.

There is another female member here who has also admitted her attraction to "difficult," albeit for different reasons. Or possibly the same reasons, only she knows and I won't speak for her.

It's the women who pretend to like the nice, stable guy but then ultimately reject him for not being more challenging/difficult, that you need to be careful of.

She will never tell you this but you'll learn through experience if you're paying attention.

 

[saige]

Almost all couples in which the man treated the woman well, because the man is healthy and not psychopathic, or even beta, have broken up due to lack of "desire" or because "the love is over".

This is one of those things I can't explain or rationalize. As I'm maturing I'm trying to learn more about myself and where these behaviors stem from, because I don't think it's actually good for me or my attraction. I used to think there was something wrong with me (and maybe there is, I'm not sure what the root cause is) because the "thrill of the chase" or the "bad boy" is what really enthralled me.

I created a thread about this one guy I used to pine over (and literally be obsessed with!) because he used techniques I now recognize as push/pull. Intermittent reinforcement. He was definitely a player, but it was intriguing because he was also a gentleman, very soft spoken, he had a lot of female friends who wanted to be in a relationship with him. I couldn't categorize him into one archetype of guys I usually come across. At first he gave off a frat boy aura, but was also mysterious and not very talkative. He was also very into music and the arts and had ear piercings (which I find really hot) and a really good fashion sense.

I've also realized that this attraction is what they call "infatuation." It's neither healthy or really reciprocal, and is almost limerent in nature. So yes, if you're attractive to women physically and mentally foremost and use these sort of techniques, you may get her infatuated with you. But this involves playing a game where neither party is happy. She may MISTAKE her feelings for love, but it's almost a sick type of love that's dependent in nature. She needs your validation to be happy. It's not a healthy mindset on her end and even if you get her "hooked" it won't be a stable relationship. I might sound like a hypocrite since I used to (and still do) be attracted to this kind of man, and honestly, I'm trying to work through my own issues.

A couple months ago, I dated this guy who checked off all the boxes: he would text me daily words of affirmation, treat me really good, was emotionally available and said he wanted to "give me the world." I found this amazing in the beginning (I guess what you'd define as a 'serene' ltr) but overtime I found that he was starting to bog me down. Everyday he'd text me things like "you're my queen" "you're my world" and if I didn't want to hang out with him because I was too tired for that day, he would ask me what's wrong and apologize for being a bad boyfriend. So yes, there's such a thing as being TOO available. Too nice. In fact, when I cut him off and told him I was too busy for a relationship he went completely off the rails and his personality did a 180. I thought he was nice, but he just was a nice guy pretending to be nice so he could stay in a relationship with me. I'm done rambling, in fact I don't think this was even an example of a serene LTR it wasn't balanced (he was way too invested) but also I just wanted to give the counterpoint of the player to show the opposite extreme of the scale.

I'd like to think there's such thing as "balance" but that works differently for everyone and you just need to see what works best for you and your partner.

 

[Divorced w 3]

Behaviors that are counterproductive almost always seem to be around ones severe lack of emotional intelligence.

 

[member162951]

Behaviors that are counterproductive almost always seem to be around ones severe lack of emotional intelligence.

Unless I'm misinterpreting, counterproductive to what? The way I see it, at least in some cases, the person is getting exactly what they want, what works for them, individually and as a couple.

It may seem counterproductive to those who seek certainty, calmness and stability in their relationships 24/7 but not everyone does.

And it's important to be honest with ourselves about that and those we choose.to have relationships with.

I'm not talking abusive, not at all. Just a different way of relating and interacting with each other than the conventional mode of spending all your free time together, no arguing and seeking peace and harmony 24/7.

 

[member162951]

OP, check out Esther Perel's TED talk videos.

One a highly recommend is "The Secret to Desire in a Long Term Relationship." She discusses among other things, distance!

How a bit of distance and uncertainty can add to your desire and passion for each other and maintain it, long term.

This is right up my alley, I've realized it's what I need to maintain my attraction, long term, even in a marriage.

So many couples mistakenly believe "togetherness" and certainty is the key to happiness, it's the opposite! Too much togetherness kills it.

When I read about a couple experiencing issues, loss of passion and attraction, the typical advice is spend more time together!

Ugh, no that's what's killing it!

It's why as @SW15 talked about, most relationships have a shelf life of 5 years of being in love and happy anyway.

Anyway I've learned a ton from reading her books/articles and watching her videos.

 

[Divorced w 3]

Unless I'm misinterpreting, counterproductive to what? The way I see it, at least in some cases, the person is getting exactly what they want, what works for them, individually and as a couple.

It may seem counterproductive to those who seek certainty, calmness and stability in their relationships 24/7 but not everyone does.

And it's important to be honest with ourselves about that and those we choose.to have relationships with.

I'm not talking abusive, not at all. Just a different way of relating and interacting with each other than the conventional mode of spending all your free time together, no arguing and seeking peace and harmony 24/7.

I personally think antisocial behavior is poor form no matter what. It’s a broad term but basically it’s a different darker beast than being intriguing.

 

[member162951]

I personally think antisocial behavior is poor form no matter what. It’s a broad term but basically it’s a different darker beast than being intriguing.

Fair enough. But sense we're referring to two different things.

I dont have time to elaborate but what I'm referring to I don't consider antisocial, to some it may be, it's subjective. But I don't.

The "darker beast" you're referring to is something different? Perhaps, perhaps not.

Without further explanation from you, it's impossible to say.

But I'm open to listening if you're ever inclined to want to. You may be surprised by my response.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

How a bit of distance and uncertainty can add to your desire and passion for each other and maintain it, long term.

Stormy weather, stormy weather
Since my man and I, me and my daddy ain't together
Keeps raining all of the time
Oh, oh, keeps raining all of the time
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah raining all of the time
Stormy stormy
Stormy weather

 

[jhonny9546]

Behaviors that are counterproductive almost always seem to be around ones severe lack of emotional intelligence.

I've always hear about this term but never understood it in real life.