Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Real Life Applications?

[moveup]

Interesting story. Did this guy outmatch you physically? What is your size compared to his? Did you fall on your back naturally? I hear there's a proper way to fall in jiu jitsu...

Honestly I don't really remember how it ended up on the ground, I was really drunk. He was a much bigger guy than me (think fat, not muscle), so I assume he just charged me and knocked me down. I have no idea how I fell, but I didn't have any injuries to my back or skull so I must have done something right.

One of the things that concerns me about with jiu jitsu is that when I watch ufc and see some of them on the ground it seems like they are getting their ass kicked while staying in that same guard position. Now that you have some real experience, is being in that guard position with your legs up really safer than covering up your face or curling up on the ground?

I would say it's safer than either of those things, because you can keep yourself away from flailing arms and legs pretty easily. It's hard to punch someone well when you're in their guard. I assume that if you're any good with it, it's pretty simple to end a fight quickly against an untrained person from the guard position; however, I definitely don't have that kind of skill. If I had to choose, I'd prefer standing up and running away over the guard.

 

[armadon]

Arma sounds like you may be the most knowledgable at all since you practice this art the most. Can you explain a little of the specifics on your street encounter. When you say you "pulled guard" does that mean you fell down on your back with your feet up? What did you then do? You got up to your feet but I'm not picturing the whole shoulder submission. I appreciate your feedback because you have real experience proving that this work

I should have said jump guard. Jumping guard is an aggresive way of pulling guard. It will leave the other guy kinda going wtf for a second. Ok as soon as the guy was brought down I had his arm in the position to start the oma platta. It's kinda like throwing a 1 2 combo. your moves should flow into the next. to finish the oma platta scoot your hip out to the side of the arm you have in position. It's hard to explain through text. the one thing about an oma platta is if you stand up the shoulder will break but when i say that its the tendons getting ripped apart. It's just you never stand when practicing the manuver in the gym for obvious reasons.

I don't recommend any submission that leaves easy access to a knife or gun. I wont do chokes because your hands are tied up and his are free. arm triangle would be one i would do because you can secure both arms. normal triangle is a no no because he has access to your tendons on the back of your knee and one of his arms are free to grab a knife.

Arm locks from the crucifiction position is a good one but watch out cause they will bite you. arm bars from top or bottom are also good although I do not recommend going guard in a street fight if you are not good at getting back out.

 

[Kerpal]

One of the things that concerns me about with jiu jitsu is that when I watch ufc and see some of them on the ground it seems like they are getting their ass kicked while staying in that same guard position. Now that you have some real experience, is being in that guard position with your legs up really safer than covering up your face or curling up on the ground?

The guard is a form of "damage control". If you have to be on the bottom, it's much better than being in a knee ride (knee on stomach), side control (opponent on top perpendicular to you), mount (opponent straddling your chest), or rear mount (opponent on your back with legs wrapped over your waist). I would NEVER purposely go to the guard in a real self defense situation but if I had to be on the bottom, the guard is the best position to be in.

From the guard, you have some control over your opponent's body and you have sweeps, submissions, you can transition to a better position (ie going around to the guy's back and choking him or just getting away) and it's a lot easier to get to your feet because you can use your legs to push the guy away and make space. You also have a much easier time defending against punches. From all other positions, your only option is to try to escape, and it's a lot harder and the other guy has a dominant position on you where he can go for submissions (unlikely in a self defense situation I think) or strikes.

The guard is only 1 part of BJJ though. Like Workerouter said, if you just want to train for self defense purposes you don't need to learn a lot of the "fancier" moves because those are mostly for use against people who have some training in BJJ, I highly doubt you're gonna run into a BJJ guy in a dark alley though. You would be amazed how well it works against someone who doesn't have any training though.

 

[WORKEROUTER]

The guard is a form of "damage control". If you have to be on the bottom, it's much better than being in a knee ride (knee on stomach), side control (opponent on top perpendicular to you), mount (opponent straddling your chest), or rear mount (opponent on your back with legs wrapped over your waist). I would NEVER purposely go to the guard in a real self defense situation but if I had to be on the bottom, the guard is the best position to be in.

From the guard, you have some control over your opponent's body and you have sweeps, submissions, you can transition to a better position (ie going around to the guy's back and choking him or just getting away) and it's a lot easier to get to your feet because you can use your legs to push the guy away and make space. You also have a much easier time defending against punches. From all other positions, your only option is to try to escape, and it's a lot harder and the other guy has a dominant position on you where he can go for submissions (unlikely in a self defense situation I think) or strikes.

The guard is only 1 part of BJJ though. Like Workerouter said, if you just want to train for self defense purposes you don't need to learn a lot of the "fancier" moves because those are mostly for use against people who have some training in BJJ, I highly doubt you're gonna run into a BJJ guy in a dark alley though. You would be amazed how well it works against someone who doesn't have any training though.

Probably the best things to study would be:

-escapes from the bottom
-controlling the opponent from the top (knee on stomach, mount)
-escaping the common chokes and holds (guillotine, bear hug, etc)
-throwing simple, quick, effective submissions from all angles

I've used BJJ on a couple occasions. One time I got caught with a barrage of drunken punches...quickly took him down with a double leg, went to mount, and proceeded with an arm bar. Other time I got bull run by a bigger guy trying to take me down...went down with him to the ground, locked my legs around him, guillotined him and arched my back up. One time I got caught in a guillotine by a guy while drunk. Used the basic trip escape and assumed a side mount escape, then applied a basic key lock.

 

[Reyaj]

Nice!

 

[Frenchconnection]

Probably the best things to study would be:

-escapes from the bottom
-controlling the opponent from the top (knee on stomach, mount)
-escaping the common chokes and holds (guillotine, bear hug, etc)
-throwing simple, quick, effective submissions from all angles

I've used BJJ on a couple occasions. One time I got caught with a barrage of drunken punches...quickly took him down with a double leg, went to mount, and proceeded with an arm bar. Other time I got bull run by a bigger guy trying to take me down...went down with him to the ground, locked my legs around him, guillotined him and arched my back up. One time I got caught in a guillotine by a guy while drunk. Used the basic trip escape and assumed a side mount escape, then applied a basic key lock.

So what happened when you did the arm bar stuff?

How do you get out of a guillotine?

 

[Latinoman]

The ONLY thing that works in very close quarters is not taught by anyone in regular classes...it is actually taught to special operatives type.

 

[Suicide]

The ONLY thing that works in very close quarters is not taught by anyone in regular classes...it is actually taught to special operatives type.

And what is that exactly?

 

[WORKEROUTER]

So what happened when you did the arm bar stuff?

How do you get out of a guillotine?

Arm bar was just the basic arm bar from the "triple threat position."

In order to escape the standing guillotine, you need to use your hand to lock onto his shoulder from the back, and try to move around a little bit to his back side, at which point you use your own knee to push or trip in his knee, simultaneously using your hand to pull his shoulder back, hence making him off balance. That drops you onto the ground at which you point you can easily attain side mount.

 

[Kerpal]

Another thing, just because you take someone down doesn't mean you have to go down with them. You could take someone down and use the opportunity to escape, or employ stomps and kicks to the downed attacker.

 

[speakeasy]

Arm bar was just the basic arm bar from the "triple threat position."

In order to escape the standing guillotine, you need to use your hand to lock onto his shoulder from the back, and try to move around a little bit to his back side, at which point you use your own knee to push or trip in his knee, simultaneously using your hand to pull his shoulder back, hence making him off balance. That drops you onto the ground at which you point you can easily attain side mount.

Dude this is so funny, in my MMA class just minutes ago, we were shown this very move for the first time.

 

[Reyaj]

Anyone else use BJJ in real life to defend themselves?

 

[spesmilitis]

I agree with this. It seems like BJJ is so ground focused it doesn't help your stand up or take down? Am I wrong and are there techniques for this?

There are priciples that apply to all forms of grappling. Get good on the ground and stand up priciples come more easily and vise versa. However, there is no substitude for doing the standup itself. Don't do stand up and you won't get good at stand up.

I keep in mind that the most dangerious street fighters and the ones who had martial arts experiance. Those guys are probably not very good; from what I've seen, the guys who get into street fights a lot are not dedicated enough to learn the intricies of fighting and just do it to exercise their aggressiveness.

For those type of fighters, a mix of bjj and stand up grappling is ideal. BJJ for when they try to pull a submission on you that they saw on UFC, and for also if they are on top (most common street fighter's martial art is wrestling since its offered in highschool). A good clinch game is better to nuetralize strikers. Look at boxing, there's a clinch every few seconds. A clinch is also harder to avoid than a leg takedown.

 

[spesmilitis]

Probably the best things to study would be:

-escapes from the bottom
-controlling the opponent from the top (knee on stomach, mount)
-escaping the common chokes and holds (guillotine, bear hug, etc)
-throwing simple, quick, effective submissions from all angles

I've used BJJ on a couple occasions. One time I got caught with a barrage of drunken punches...quickly took him down with a double leg, went to mount, and proceeded with an arm bar. Other time I got bull run by a bigger guy trying to take me down...went down with him to the ground, locked my legs around him, guillotined him and arched my back up. One time I got caught in a guillotine by a guy while drunk. Used the basic trip escape and assumed a side mount escape, then applied a basic key lock.

What did you do after the submissions? Let him go or break the joint?

I would hate to break someone's joint, but if they are let go, they might go back to fighting you again.

 

[Reyaj]

bump

 

[speakeasy]

You know, BJJ is some of the best stuff out there, but I can see why some people consider it gay! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qOI0x0dDn4

 

[Belisarius]

Bjj is extremely street effective. The fact is that if you know how to fight on the ground, and the other guy does not, you have an enormous advantage. Size doesn't really matter if the other guy doesn't know how to grapple. I know guys from my gym that weigh 130 pounds that can take down untrained 200 pound men without breaking a sweat. Unless the dude knows how to sprawl or guillotine, he's probably goin' down no matter what the weight difference is. Not to mention the fact that most guys think that street fights are about punching the other guy in the face and nothing else. Untrained guys don't expect a takedown and that's why they are so easy to land. If you have a good takedown, he probably wont be able to hit you at all before you get him to the ground. Once on the ground, you'll know what to do. He'll give you so many ****ing openings it will be like shooting fish in a barrel.
I've trained bjj for 3 years now and have had to use my skills twice during this time. Once I got into it with some jerk at a party. I said something he didn't like so he threw a beer bottle at me and charged. I got up and he did the overhand right with a duck and weave and I grabbed his head and guillotined him till he went to sleep. Second time I was cheap shotted and instinctively went for a double leg takedown, went immediately to side mount, mounted, when he tried to push me off I arm barred him. He was screaming. I asked if he'd had enough. He said yes. I let him go. The thing about bjj is that when you learn the submissions, you also learn to control them because you don't go all out when you get an armbar on one of you classmates. You get the move in place and slowly apply pressure till they tap. The difference with real life is that you apply pressure and in stead of waiting for the tapout, you ask if they've had enough. Another nice feature of Bjj is that, depending on which school you go to, you will probably be rolling 30-40% of the time. This is excellent for your confidence. You learn to use the moves in realtime. They are battle tested.
It is true that if you are fighting more than one person, Bjj shouldn't be your first line of defense. You can mount a guy all day but it isn't gonna do you any good if his buddy stomp kicks you in the back of the head. Some schools go over judo throws and one of those might knock out of the first guy, but if there are more than 2, you are probably screwed. As far as singular martial arts go, I'd say bjj and judo are the most street effective in 1 on 1 situations. Pair it with some striking and you will be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Reyaj]

Bjj is extremely street effective. The fact is that if you know how to fight on the ground, and the other guy does not, you have an enormous advantage. Size doesn't really matter if the other guy doesn't know how to grapple. I know guys from my gym that weigh 130 pounds that can take down untrained 200 pound men without breaking a sweat. Unless the dude knows how to sprawl or guillotine, he's probably goin' down no matter what the weight difference is. Not to mention the fact that most guys think that street fights are about punching the other guy in the face and nothing else. Untrained guys don't expect a takedown and that's why they are so easy to land. If you have a good takedown, he probably wont be able to hit you at all before you get him to the ground. Once on the ground, you'll know what to do. He'll give you so many ****ing openings it will be like shooting fish in a barrel.
I've trained bjj for 3 years now and have had to use my skills twice during this time. Once I got into it with some jerk at a party. I said something he didn't like so he threw a beer bottle at me and charged. I got up and he did the overhand right with a duck and weave and I grabbed his head and guillotined him till he went to sleep. Second time I was cheap shotted and instinctively went for a double leg takedown, went immediately to side mount, mounted, when he tried to push me off I arm barred him. He was screaming. I asked if he'd had enough. He said yes. I let him go. The thing about bjj is that when you learn the submissions, you also learn to control them because you don't go all out when you get an armbar on one of you classmates. You get the move in place and slowly apply pressure till they tap. The difference with real life is that you apply pressure and in stead of waiting for the tapout, you ask if they've had enough. Another nice feature of Bjj is that, depending on which school you go to, you will probably be rolling 30-40% of the time. This is excellent for your confidence. You learn to use the moves in realtime. They are battle tested.
It is true that if you are fighting more than one person, Bjj shouldn't be your first line of defense. You can mount a guy all day but it isn't gonna do you any good if his buddy stomp kicks you in the back of the head. Some schools go over judo throws and one of those might knock out of the first guy, but if there are more than 2, you are probably screwed. As far as singular martial arts go, I'd say bjj and judo are the most street effective in 1 on 1 situations. Pair it with some striking and you will be a force to be reckoned with.

Good stuff dude! Thats the kind of feed back I was looking for. I have a couple of questions though.

1. Do you have a wrestling background? The thing is that I don't... so I don't know how to sprawl or do any other moves. I feel like I may have a hard time learning and being effective at BJJ without that background.


2. The biggest knock I am hearing on BJJ in a street fight or what not is that the ground is hard..... its not on the mats like you are in class. Does this limit its effectiveness?

3. I am trying to decide between BJJ and Judo. BJJ seems to have a more consistent win streak in MMA tournmanets than does Judo, but being that I lack wrestling maybe I should learn some throws...


Thanx!

 

[Belisarius]

I do have a wrestling background and it does help, but they will teach you takedowns at a good bjj school. In competition you start standing up so they aren't gonna send you into battle unequipped. In practice when you spar, you typically start on the ground, but they will at some point do some takedown work. Also since there are a lot of people with wrestling experience who do bjj, you shouldn't have any problems finding people to practice with after class. As far as the concrete goes, you're going to have so much adrenaline going through you that it wont make much of a difference. Practicing on a hard surface is uncomfortable as hell but you probably wont mind it in a fight. Worst case scenario you bruise/scratch up your knee up a little bit from the takedown. Judo is also an excellent choice and the concrete is the very thing that makes it so effective in street fights. Those throws can hurt on mats. On concrete or carpet and against a guy who doesn't know how to break his fall they would be devastating. A buddy of mine from Bjj is a national judo champion. He says he's knocked a lot of guys out in bar fights with his throws and I believe him.

The benefit of going with bjj is that it can put you in touch with the mma community. Many bjj schools also teach mma or muy thai. You could sign up for the bjj and go for a while and then sign up for their striking class to compliment your ground skills.

 

[jesusrules]

I dont practice it but the only way I think it could be effective would be if you actually got yourself into a gound fight. If its not for that forget it.