Bonehead question about computer processors

Luthor Rex

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Diver said:
If both computers had the same amount of RAM, say 6-8 gigs, and one computer had a duo core processor and the other one had a quad core processor, would there be much of a difference in performance?
That much RAM will require a 64-bit OS. Not all apps run on 64-bit and some 32-bit apps run poorly on a 64-bit OS. It also means you are going to pay more for the upgrade on the software. Not sure how worried you are about $$$.

Of the two guys fighting, the one who is talking about better performance for games on a quad core is right, I do see better performance on my games with a quad vs. dual core. But you said that you are mostly looking for Photoshop and the web. Yeah it'll probably be slower, but the speed vs. how much more you are going to pay is something else to think about. If you can afford paying more $$$ for more power then go for it. If not, you're not going to die on a dual core.

One of my laptops is a Pentium 4 and it runs the internet and GIMP just fine, and it does it all on linux. lol
 

Alle_Gory

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Luthor Rex said:
some 32-bit apps run poorly on a 64-bit OS
Like what?

Yeah it'll probably be slower, but the speed vs. how much more you are going to pay is something else to think about. If you can afford paying more $$$ for more power then go for it. If not, you're not going to die on a dual core.
Not only that but Quads use much more power. On a laptop, this is unacceptable.

The Core2Quads are simply two Core2Duo's stuck together. You can see why its a problem on a laptop.

On a desktop, its a small increase in power. On a laptop, the CPU tends to be the highest power sucking part.



Sorry to hear you have a Pentium 4.
 

prairiedog24

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Luthor Rex said:
Of the two guys fighting, the one who is talking about better performance for games on a quad core is right, I do see better performance on my games with a quad vs. dual core. But you said that you are mostly looking for Photoshop and the web. Yeah it'll probably be slower, but the speed vs. how much more you are going to pay is something else to think about. If you can afford paying more $$$ for more power then go for it. If not, you're not going to die on a dual core.
Even this isn't really accurate. Check this out:

"Nvidia showed benchmark graphs of various systems running Crysis Warhead, Fallout 3, Call of Duty: World at War and Far Cry 2 at 1920 x 1200 (no AA or AF). According to bit-tech.net, the Core 2 Duo E8400 and a GeForce GTS 250 scored an average of 41.6 fps. The frame rate moved slightly up to 42.4 fps after upgrading to a Core i7 965, but jumped all the way up to 59.4 fps after upgrading to a GeForce GTX 260 (216 stream processors) SLI setup."

So moving from a mid-range duel to the TOP OF THE LINE $1,000 i7 Quad netted .8 frames per second.
Nvidia is dead right. Yes a quad is better, but if you're gaming, it's WAY better to spend that extra $$$ on the video card.

A quad may be worth it for general productivity increases if you do a lot of rendering or heavy multitasking, but it's not going to help you much gaming. CPU's just aren't the bottleneck these days, hard drives and video cards are.

My recommendation right now in CPUland are

Desktop: AMD Phenom II (yes, it's a quad, but a great value quad)
Laptop: P8400/P9600
 

xingcong

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Diver said:
I'm buying a new laptop. I'm going to buy it from HP, but I'll be customizing all the options, including the processor.

So you going for an HP laptop, and trying to decide on processor. There will not be any considerable difference between 2 GHz, and 3GHz dual core CPU for internet, dreamweaver, photoshop, unless you intent to do some video editing with primer, or if you want to do flash.

However, you want your laptop last at least 5 years for you, it is an investment. So, go for 3 GHz processor, it will be better in the long run.


May I also suggest you look at this manufacturers and products?

http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Notebook/Default.aspx

http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=5
 

Alle_Gory

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xingcong said:
So you going for an HP laptop, and trying to decide on processor. There will not be any considerable difference between 2 GHz, and 3GHz dual core CPU for internet, dreamweaver, photoshop, unless you intent to do some video editing with primer, or if you want to do flash.
So you're saying a Pentium Dual core 65nm 2.0ghz is as good as a Core2Duo 45nm 2.0ghz.

Both dual core, both 2.0ghz but the Core2Duo wins by a landslide. You can only directly compare specs from the same family of chips.


prairiedog24 said:
"Nvidia showed benchmark graphs of various systems running Crysis Warhead, Fallout 3, Call of Duty: World at War and Far Cry 2 at 1920 x 1200 (no AA or AF). According to bit-tech.net, the Core 2 Duo E8400 and a GeForce GTS 250 scored an average of 41.6 fps. The frame rate moved slightly up to 42.4 fps after upgrading to a Core i7 965, but jumped all the way up to 59.4 fps after upgrading to a GeForce GTX 260 (216 stream processors) SLI setup."

So moving from a mid-range duel to the TOP OF THE LINE $1,000 i7 Quad netted .8 frames per second.
Nvidia is dead right. Yes a quad is better, but if you're gaming, it's WAY better to spend that extra $$$ on the video card.

Yes. Thank you for repeating the nVidia marketing BS. Crysis makes no difference on a i7 versus a Core2Duo because it is shader heavy. The GPU limits the performance. Compare this to a game made by Valve or on the Unreal 3 engine which are more CPU heavy and you see a big difference in performance when moving to i7.

It depends on the game.


prariedog24 said:
A quad may be worth it for general productivity increases if you do a lot of rendering or heavy multitasking, but it's not going to help you much gaming. CPU's just aren't the bottleneck these days, hard drives and video cards are.
If you're going to make a generalization, RAM would be the biggest bottleneck. Hard drives are incredibly fast in RAID and we have some fast SSDs now. Videocards are getting faster every year. RAM, not so much.
 
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snowdog

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A lot of computer guys here, what a suprise, hehe.

I'm working in a computer store for over a year now and I'll tell you this.

Here's some info for you guys:


CPU
There is a huge performance difference between single cores and dual cores, there really is. Windows Vista and 7, makes a lot of use of both cores. It makes a big difference if you're doing several things at a time. Every user will benefit from it, even the standard internet and office only user.

Then we have these quad cores we keep hearing about. In normal use, these are slower than dual cores. Weird? No, not really.

These two CPU's are the same price:

E8400 dual core: 1333Mhz FSB, 3Ghz, 6MB cache
Q6600 quad core: 1066Mhz FSB, 2.4Ghz, 6MB cache

The FSB is the speed which the CPU communicates with the rest of the PC
The 3Ghz and 2.4Ghz are the speeds of the cores
The cache is temporarily memory. Note that the E8400 has twice as much per core

There are quad cores with the same speeds, but they are a lot more expensive.

So why a quad core? If you're using professional applications for video-editing, 3D rendering, autocad, or running a heavy server, yes, a quad core can be very useful.

In normal computing a dual core will be better. You got to look at the speed per core. You either have two cores that are extremely fast, or four cores that are relatively slow. Most of the time you will use only one at a time. It's just logical.

Software has to be programmed to use multicore cpu's. Most software today is coded for dual core. This also goes for games (there are maybe one or two exceptions, but we're talking about vast majority here). In games, the video card is the most important factor anyway. Windows doesn't do much with the 3rd and 4th core because it isn't needed in normal situations. 2 cores is enough.

If you put the E8400 ($160), against the core i7 extreme quad core ($1000), the E8400 will be about as fast as the i7 in games and normal Windows use. If you put a Q6600 or Q8200 (both also around $160) against it, the E8400 will whoop their four asses.

Why are quad cores popular? A lot of people think "more is better". In this case, it isn't, unless you're willing to spend a ridicilous amount of money.


Memory
If you're getting Vista (Which I reccommend. It's an excellent OS by now and definitely better than XP), you need at least 2GB ram. 1GB is not enough and 2GB is enough for normal use. If you're a power user, you can get 4GB. If you're running the 32-bit version (most likely if it's in a laptop), Windows can "only" use 3.2GB of it. Why do they put 4GB in laptops you ask? Well because of something called "dual-channel". Each memory module has access to the memory controller with a seperate 'lane', that way they both can communicate using their own private connection, which makes it faster. Flip side of the coin is that both modules need to be the same size.

The only difference between 64-bit and 32-bit is the ability to use as good as infinite amounts of ram ram. 64-Bit versions are for extreme power users or gamers and not really interesting for normal people. Running a 32-bit app on 64-Bit is about as fast.


Hard drives
Get an old fashioned hard drive. They're a lot more reliable than they used to be, and the SSD's just aren't worth it yet. SSD's are mad expensive and still have problems. Companies like OCZ and Samsung has a bunch of "affordable" SSD's, but they aren't that fast, really. They also still have firmware problems sometimes. It's just a really new technology. If you buy one of these things, you're a beta tester. The X25 SSD's from Intel, they are good, but they are way too expensive expensive.

My advice: don't do it, yet. Every new generation of SSD's is a lot better than the previous one, and that's telling clearly that it isn't a mature technology yet. If you want a fast drive, get a Western Digital VelociRaptor. Those things are fast as f*ck, affordable and reliable. Or put some drives in RAID 0, but that's also power user stuff.


Video card
There are two brands out there, Nvidia and ATi. Nvidia is more expensive, but generally speaking has better drivers. ATi is a cheaper, and often great value for money. Don't believe nerdy idiots who clain that one sucks and the other is great. Both companies make great products.

I put cards against each other. One time an ATi card will run a game better, and the other time an Nvidia will run a game better. I took the averages here.

The cards I listed against each other are about the same price. This is at the moment of writing. Prices change very fast in graphics card land.

Entry level cards, sub $100:
Geforce 9800GT - ATi Radeon 4770 (4770 is a little faster and has a better, quieter cooler)
Geforce 9600GT - ATi Radeon 4830 (4830 is faster)

These will play any game, and it'll look pretty sweet too. Great for the normal user.

Medium level cards $100-$150: (around 10% faster)
Geforce GTS250 - ATi Radeon 4850 (about the same speed, but the GTS250 has a better, quieter cooler)

These will be able to run most games games with high settings.

Semi-high end $150-200 (around 15% faster)
Geforce GTX260 - ATi Radeon 4870 (GTX260 is a little faster)

These will be able to play almost every game with max settings, in high resolution.

High end $200-320 (around 10% faster, with the exception of the 285)
Geforce GTX275 - ATi Radeon 4890 (GTX275 is a little faster)
Geforce GTX285 (The GTX285 is around 15% faster and more expensive than both)

These will let you play pretty much any game with all settings on max in a high resolution.

Insane sh*t $500-$600 (up to 40% faster)
Geforce GTX295 - ATi Radeon 4870 X2 (The GTX295 is around 15% faster then the 4870 X2, but also more expensive)

These cards will let you play any game with everything on max in insane resolutions. They will also need at least a 700w power supply. These things are insane. I have even sold custom-built computers where people wanted two of these cards (yes, it's possible) in their computer. Their systems needed a power supply of around 1200w.


OS
Forget XP, it's obsolete. Only idiots still want it with a new PC. It doesn't know what to do with multi-core cpu's, it doesn't know clever things to do with a lot of RAM memory, it doesn't have DirectX10, it doesn't have the clever search system, it looks like sh*t, it's slower on today's computers... Really, get Vista. Or if you're a power user you can download the Windows 7 RC.


Pff, that's enough geeky sh*t for now. If you have a question about anything computer related, just drop a PM.
 

Cry For Love

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It doesn't know what to do with multi-core cpu's, it doesn't know clever things to do with a lot of RAM memory, it doesn't have DirectX10, it doesn't have the clever search system, it looks like sh*t, it's slower on today's computers...
elaborate on this please. Namely the multicore cpu and ram issues and why it's slower.

From what ive heard, vista is supposed to use more cpu, so it would make sense to use xp on a laptop without power, especially when radically underclocking it to save even more power.
 

Alle_Gory

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Cry For Love said:
elaborate on this please. Namely the multicore cpu and ram issues and why it's slower.

From what ive heard, vista is supposed to use more cpu, so it would make sense to use xp on a laptop without power, especially when radically underclocking it to save even more power.
XP is 32-bit which by design has a maximum addressable space of 3GB. If you have more than 3GB pf memory in your system, its still shows up as 3GB. You can use XP 64-bit but its really bad.

Vista does not use more CPU. It uses more RAM, and some GPU depending on your settings.
 

snowdog

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Cry For Love said:
elaborate on this please. Namely the multicore cpu and ram issues and why it's slower.

From what ive heard, vista is supposed to use more cpu, so it would make sense to use xp on a laptop without power, especially when radically underclocking it to save even more power.
Today's laptops are fast, and almost always have dual cores in them. On today's computers, Vista runs faster and smoother than XP. On old computers, XP is faster. Vista is coded to use both cores, XP isn't. That's why Vista is faster on computers with multi-core CPU's.

Vista does not use more CPU. It uses more RAM, and some GPU depending on your settings.
The reason why it uses so much ram is because of a feature called SuperFetch. What it does, it looks at what programs you use a lot, and loads it into the RAM while your computer is idle. That's why your hard drive is rattling all the time even when you're doing nothing. If you're starting one of those programs, it loads much faster because it's already in the RAM memory. That's why it looks like Vista uses a lot of RAM, while it just makes smart use of it. Why not use it if it's available anyway? If a program needs the RAM space, the SuperFetch data is cleared out of it within a microsecond.

It uses the GPU for rendering the interface, which is great because the CPU doesn't have to do it anymore, which again, makes it faster.

Vista also has smart energy saving features. If you select the right energy profile, it underclocks the CPU when it's idle.

If you're buying a laptop today, get one with a dual core, and at least 2GB ram and it'll run great. Vista got such a bad reputation at the start because people installed it on obsolete computers which made it really slow. Today, it's an excellent OS.
 

Cry For Love

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So if understand correctly the reason vista is faster is because of superfetch.

I dont understand the dual core criticism though. The task manager and various other monitoring applications show both cores doing work and im using xp and total cpu usage goes above 50%(>1 core) with no problems

If vista doesnt use more cpu, merely ramp and possibly gpu, why does it have higher cpu requirements?

Also, the requirements are a 800-1000mhz processor. When underclocking and using the SuperLFM cpu mode which is very useful for mobile usage, the clock speed is below that threshold(600mhz in the case of my cpu), which makes me sceptical on the viability of vista in such situations
 

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snowdog said:
The reason why it uses so much ram is because of a feature called SuperFetch.
I don't consider Superfetch to use up RAM. It's only existing in the idle RAM space if there is any.

Disable Superfetch and watch Vista idle at 500-700mb just by itself.

It uses the GPU for rendering the interface, which is great because the CPU doesn't have to do it anymore, which again, makes it faster.
It uses both. But its faster rendering with the GPU assist.

Vista also has smart energy saving features. If you select the right energy profile, it underclocks the CPU when it's idle.
Vista by default has crappy power management. The user needs to go and make their own profile. Its easy and takes 10min.
 

snowdog

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Cry For Love said:
So if understand correctly the reason vista is faster is because of superfetch.
One of the reasons, yes.

I dont understand the dual core criticism though. The task manager and various other monitoring applications show both cores doing work and im using xp and total cpu usage goes above 50%(>1 core) with no problems
XP does use dual cores to some extent, but not in the same smart way that Vista does. You got to understand that dual cores weren't mainstream when XP came out. Vista is built upon the idea of multi-core processing.

If vista doesnt use more cpu, merely ramp and possibly gpu, why does it have higher cpu requirements?
I never said it doesn't use more CPU. Vista is a heavier OS than XP no doubt about it. There is more stuff going on in the background like SuperFetch. It's a completely different system under the hood that requires more cpu power and ram.

It is made for today's hardware, which runs it great. XP was also heavier than Windows 98, but it ran better on computers that were new then.

Vista on a fast computer=fast
Vista on an old computer=slow
XP on an old computer=fast
XP on a new computer=fast, but not as fast & smooth as Vista

Also, the requirements are a 800-1000mhz processor. When underclocking and using the SuperLFM cpu mode which is very useful for mobile usage, the clock speed is below that threshold(600mhz in the case of my cpu), which makes me sceptical on the viability of vista in such situations
What kinda computer do you have? Don't get into Vista if you have less than a 2.0 ghz dual core and at least 2GB ram.


I don't consider Superfetch to use up RAM. It's only existing in the idle RAM space if there is any.

Disable Superfetch and watch Vista idle at 500-700mb just by itself.
Yes, it's a heavier system than XP. Is that your point? Xp was heavier than Win '98, Win '98 was heavier than Win '95, and that one was a whole lot heavier than Win 3.11
 

Cry For Love

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Have a 2 ghz c2d. but the point is, even though its a pretty modern cpu, when using the low voltage low clock frequency superLFM mode it only pushes out 600 MHz. Now that reduces performance obviously, but the battery life is better and runs cooler -> dont ever have to turn on fan and works more quietly.

those two points make me cynical on the usefulness of vista on a laptop that is used without power a decent amount of time
 

snowdog

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If you underclock your processor that much I wouldn't put Vista on it. If you need extra computer time, I'd get a bigger battery if I were you. That makes a really big difference.
 

Alle_Gory

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Cry For Love said:
Have a 2 ghz c2d. but the point is, even though its a pretty modern cpu, when using the low voltage low clock frequency superLFM mode it only pushes out 600 MHz. Now that reduces performance obviously, but the battery life is better and runs cooler -> dont ever have to turn on fan and works more quietly.

those two points make me cynical on the usefulness of vista on a laptop that is used without power a decent amount of time
So you get 15min more battery at 90% performance loss. Not worth it IMO.

I underclock mine to 50% while under battery power, and I turn the screen to lowest brightness. The screen is the killer.
 

Cry For Love

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Alle_Gory said:
So you get 15min more battery at 90% performance loss. Not worth it IMO.

I underclock mine to 50% while under battery power, and I turn the screen to lowest brightness. The screen is the killer.
thats the point man. the raw cpu power just goes to about 25% of normal but even that is enough for nearly every purpose, same thing as with gpu. Pretty much the only time i put it higher is when watching hd youtube vids
 

snowdog

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Cry For Love said:
thats the point man. the raw cpu power just goes to about 25% of normal but even that is enough for nearly every purpose, same thing as with gpu. Pretty much the only time i put it higher is when watching hd youtube vids
Vista can do that automaticly for you. You set the minimum cpu speed and maximum cpu speed. If you put the minimum to 5% and maximum to 100% or something, it will only fully use it when needed and keep it at 5% when you aren't doing anything.
 

Alle_Gory

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Cry For Love said:
thats the point man. the raw cpu power just goes to about 25% of normal but even that is enough for nearly every purpose, same thing as with gpu. Pretty much the only time i put it higher is when watching hd youtube vids
all im saying is that its too much hassle for little gains. im using windows 7 RC on my computer. its in between vista and xp in terms of battery life and i get all the cool aero effects (minus transparency because that drains battery). its got fantastic power management like vista but the hibernate problems have been fixed.

memory usage is lower and its a generally more responsive system. its free to use because its an RC. it will be usable until march of 2010 when the key expires.

try it. you can always go back to windows xp if you want. i will show you how to make a 1:1 snapshot of your current xp install if you want to go back and have everything the same. you're going to need some burnable dvds or a second hard drive though.
 
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