Mr. Fingers
Senior Don Juan
- Joined
- May 26, 2003
- Messages
- 230
- Reaction score
- 52
There is a difference between a child molester and a woman who likes to have sex.....well, at least for me there is!
B!tches, Hoes and Hypocrisy
- Thread starter Mr. Fingers
- Start date
NewMan
Master Don Juan
Wrong I'm in my 30's.
? What the hell are you talking about? I never said they will have sex whenever they want - I said they COULD have sex whenever they want - to different things.
Actually the only other mamul who has sex for pleasure are Dolphins - so your whole monkey scenario holds no water.
You think that a woman should not have sex until they are married (that's obvious) - your obviously in your 40's with that attitude
Oh my goodness - what the hell is this? So any woman who has had sex before marrage is a ***** right? and that means that they will stop having sex with their husband after they get married. Yes, i know frequency of sex drops after marrage - it drops after you've been with your girlfriend for 2 years as well. Here's a brain opener for you - THE FREQUENCY WILL STOP NO MATTER WHAT - NO MATTER HOW MANY PARTNERS YOU WIFE HAS HAD BEFORE YOU.
I could say more - but can't be bothered.
The more I read your post's the more I think that it's one big joke.
If you want a virgin wife (at the age of 41 mind you) good luck to you. I respect your opinions but disagree with them whole heartedly.
Personally I think your an ancient relic - who has no idea on how to enjoy this wonderfull thing called life.
Just say yes to beautiful women.
By the way, Not everyone here wants to get married. Some people just want to have fun and enjoy themselves.
All_Torque
Don Juan
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Messages
- 67
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- 0
Well Fingers I agree to a certain extent, but you seem to be suggesting that monogamy and faithful marriages are also bad, which I happen to disagree with.
This is not because I am religious. You think I'd be posting here if I was religious?
This is not because I am religious. You think I'd be posting here if I was religious?
Howie Farkes
Don Juan
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2003
- Messages
- 178
- Reaction score
- 0
Assuming he's not a rapist I wouldn't give 2 sh!ts what it takes to float his boat. And if he was a rapist I wouldn't him as room-mate whatever his sexual preference.
PuertoRican_Lover
Banned
Stoning of women is rare today out of a billion muslims very few r stoned (im not talking about getting high) - literally stoned. maybe a handful at most - these stonings r given alot of attention in america because they want to make the muslim religion look bad because the christian membership and conversions have diminished dramaticaLLY OVER THE YEARS and Islam have been on a dramatic rise...
the actions of a very few fanatics r blown out of proportion y dont they show and talk about how many women r "stoned " (figuretively speaking) in america - tens and tens and ten of thousands are brutally raped - throats r cut - strangled, difigured, maimed, abductied, tens of thousands domestic violence incidents, hundreds of serial killers... plus hundreds of thousands of prostitutes flooding and demoralizing our neighborhoods. oh yeah over 1 million abortions a year oh yeah we have death penalty, 26,000 murders a year most thru guns, drug overdoses and drug devestation of youth on and on and on - and this is on a yearly basiis ----- where is the atention to this?? boyfriend beating and ho-slapping their girlfriends...
Hypocrtes!!!
3 women get stoned to death and 50 rapes a year - oh look how horrible muslims are - they r uncivilized - they make women cover their bodies in public - no thongs or bikinis r allowed - they dont let them listen to madonna or britney spears or J-Ho or let them watch Bay I-mean Ho-Watch on tv -- lets expose these atrocities on 60 minutes and put it in time and newsweek magazine and lets talk about this fanatical and uncivilized behavior to death on the radio for 6 months ------------------ we sound so silly to the rest of the world and they know we are........................
HYPOCRITES!!!!!
christian societies killing their woman versus muslims doing the same is a ratio of thousands to one
no country disrespects their women more than America (britain is close behind)
i wonder y that is...hhhhmmmmmmmm - i got it i got it i got it
BECAUSE THEY ARE WH@RES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the actions of a very few fanatics r blown out of proportion y dont they show and talk about how many women r "stoned " (figuretively speaking) in america - tens and tens and ten of thousands are brutally raped - throats r cut - strangled, difigured, maimed, abductied, tens of thousands domestic violence incidents, hundreds of serial killers... plus hundreds of thousands of prostitutes flooding and demoralizing our neighborhoods. oh yeah over 1 million abortions a year oh yeah we have death penalty, 26,000 murders a year most thru guns, drug overdoses and drug devestation of youth on and on and on - and this is on a yearly basiis ----- where is the atention to this?? boyfriend beating and ho-slapping their girlfriends...
Hypocrtes!!!
3 women get stoned to death and 50 rapes a year - oh look how horrible muslims are - they r uncivilized - they make women cover their bodies in public - no thongs or bikinis r allowed - they dont let them listen to madonna or britney spears or J-Ho or let them watch Bay I-mean Ho-Watch on tv -- lets expose these atrocities on 60 minutes and put it in time and newsweek magazine and lets talk about this fanatical and uncivilized behavior to death on the radio for 6 months ------------------ we sound so silly to the rest of the world and they know we are........................
HYPOCRITES!!!!!
christian societies killing their woman versus muslims doing the same is a ratio of thousands to one
no country disrespects their women more than America (britain is close behind)
i wonder y that is...hhhhmmmmmmmm - i got it i got it i got it
BECAUSE THEY ARE WH@RES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PuertoRican_Lover
Banned
Howie
that was a joke u were suppose to laugh - but since u took it seriously that tells me something about u.
that was a joke u were suppose to laugh - but since u took it seriously that tells me something about u.
Howie Farkes
Don Juan
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2003
- Messages
- 178
- Reaction score
- 0
NINJA PIMP
Banned
This sh*t is Dead on!
It is amazing how some people here cant handle the truth. They read way too deep an pull crazy conclusions out of their asses.
Fingz, correct me if I´m wrong but:
From what I can see, this is not an essay against morality, monogomy and social responsibilty. Its more of an expose on the current influences and hypocrisy of the male mentality.
Question for PuertoRicanLover - Do you hold the same standards for yourself that you hold over women? That is to say, are you keeping yourself sexually pure as you wait for "the right girl"?
If so, then I commend you, if not then you are a hypocrite!
It is amazing how some people here cant handle the truth. They read way too deep an pull crazy conclusions out of their asses.
Fingz, correct me if I´m wrong but:
From what I can see, this is not an essay against morality, monogomy and social responsibilty. Its more of an expose on the current influences and hypocrisy of the male mentality.
Question for PuertoRicanLover - Do you hold the same standards for yourself that you hold over women? That is to say, are you keeping yourself sexually pure as you wait for "the right girl"?
If so, then I commend you, if not then you are a hypocrite!
PuertoRican_Lover
Banned
Newman
i lose your point "women could have sex whenever they want" SSSSSOOOOOOOO?
men can have sex whever they want too - if u cant get a g/f ho then just get a prostitute!
whats your point?
our values r definitely different but that doesnt make me an ancient relic - the truth always was and always is - there is no such thing as time when it comes to eternal principles only fools think truth is temporal and that there is no God - look at the nature of things and look at the consequences when they go outside of their true character and nature - when they go array ---
i.e. look at the condition of the american wh@re that u hold so dearly to your bossom and look from where she was just a century ago to where she is now (im talking the aggregate [as a whole] and not the individual woman) - tell me what do you see - a woman worthy of respect and admiration - worthy to b chased and romanced to be taken care of under the strength and protection of a man! absolutely not -this is evident by the drop in marriages - y marry the ho when u can get the ho for free and a new ho every few months - this is ideal for a man - when she gets ugly or fat u can leave. also by the chat on this board i have seen not one post respect a woman through languagr or thought.
that is y women r so desperate to get married at 26,27 because she knows her beauty is fleeting and is tired of dieting to please a man - fat and ugly r close at hand and she will not b able to manipulate the man through sex because her arsenal of weapons (beauty - youth - appearance - shape - womb for birth etc.) is being depleted by the month - she knows she is in trouble!!!
a lot of women r extremely dissatisfied with this condition of lack of respect and lack of suitors for a hand in marriage - many hate men because men treat them like the ho that they r but their blame is misplaced --- y blame the dog owner for treating the dog like a dog - u r keeping in nature with what that thing is
women worthy of respect r respected - i have seen this - men know who the hos r - and the hos know who they r
how ironic...
woman use their vagina to get a man for marriage (especially b 4 pre-marital sex was so rampant in the earlier days) but men r waking up to the hos true agenda and r tired of being chumped and the hos strategy is starting to backfire and men arent biting the bait as hard nowadays - the use of their vagina has become now the reason not to get married - y marry a used-up ho when u can have the ho for free!! aaaahh the women mixcalculated - the over-use of the vagina is becoming their downfall! And a hard fall at that.
i lose your point "women could have sex whenever they want" SSSSSOOOOOOOO?
men can have sex whever they want too - if u cant get a g/f ho then just get a prostitute!
whats your point?
our values r definitely different but that doesnt make me an ancient relic - the truth always was and always is - there is no such thing as time when it comes to eternal principles only fools think truth is temporal and that there is no God - look at the nature of things and look at the consequences when they go outside of their true character and nature - when they go array ---
i.e. look at the condition of the american wh@re that u hold so dearly to your bossom and look from where she was just a century ago to where she is now (im talking the aggregate [as a whole] and not the individual woman) - tell me what do you see - a woman worthy of respect and admiration - worthy to b chased and romanced to be taken care of under the strength and protection of a man! absolutely not -this is evident by the drop in marriages - y marry the ho when u can get the ho for free and a new ho every few months - this is ideal for a man - when she gets ugly or fat u can leave. also by the chat on this board i have seen not one post respect a woman through languagr or thought.
that is y women r so desperate to get married at 26,27 because she knows her beauty is fleeting and is tired of dieting to please a man - fat and ugly r close at hand and she will not b able to manipulate the man through sex because her arsenal of weapons (beauty - youth - appearance - shape - womb for birth etc.) is being depleted by the month - she knows she is in trouble!!!
a lot of women r extremely dissatisfied with this condition of lack of respect and lack of suitors for a hand in marriage - many hate men because men treat them like the ho that they r but their blame is misplaced --- y blame the dog owner for treating the dog like a dog - u r keeping in nature with what that thing is
women worthy of respect r respected - i have seen this - men know who the hos r - and the hos know who they r
how ironic...
woman use their vagina to get a man for marriage (especially b 4 pre-marital sex was so rampant in the earlier days) but men r waking up to the hos true agenda and r tired of being chumped and the hos strategy is starting to backfire and men arent biting the bait as hard nowadays - the use of their vagina has become now the reason not to get married - y marry a used-up ho when u can have the ho for free!! aaaahh the women mixcalculated - the over-use of the vagina is becoming their downfall! And a hard fall at that.
PuertoRican_Lover
Banned
Senor Fingers
Eres Boricua y tocas las congas?
Eres Boricua y tocas las congas?
Last edited:
PuertoRican_Lover
Banned
newman - i know it is natural for the frequency of sex to drop after a few years together but my emphasis was on y this is so from the woman's rationale - manipulation and control!
women willn not i repeat will not deny sex to their pimp if they have intentions of getting married to him but once she gets the ring she starts trying to dictate the schedule and frequency of sex - u r 30 and u dont know this?? not all women - just say 30% - from what i hear in studies and personal friends i think it is much higher - they start having excuses - headaches - tired - kids - not in the mood ----- i personally believe a wife should never deny her husband sex - it is her divine duty - this is grounds for annulment of marriage.
men dont get divorce because they lose so much in dollars and prperty that it sets them back 10 years and who wants to play the "get the ho" game all over again. lot of men get married for the steady sex - they dont want to play the field for the rest of their lives so they settle - sadly it becomes the exact opposite of what they expected - it is unsteady and purposely withheld to control u sex - this eventually leads to their demise - strip clubs and prostitutes.
women willn not i repeat will not deny sex to their pimp if they have intentions of getting married to him but once she gets the ring she starts trying to dictate the schedule and frequency of sex - u r 30 and u dont know this?? not all women - just say 30% - from what i hear in studies and personal friends i think it is much higher - they start having excuses - headaches - tired - kids - not in the mood ----- i personally believe a wife should never deny her husband sex - it is her divine duty - this is grounds for annulment of marriage.
men dont get divorce because they lose so much in dollars and prperty that it sets them back 10 years and who wants to play the "get the ho" game all over again. lot of men get married for the steady sex - they dont want to play the field for the rest of their lives so they settle - sadly it becomes the exact opposite of what they expected - it is unsteady and purposely withheld to control u sex - this eventually leads to their demise - strip clubs and prostitutes.
Revelry
Don Juan
You're a bad man, Fingz!
Okay - a response to the original post (which, it has to be said, almost comes close to trolling!! - are you sure you aren't one of those Paganistic satyrs, just stirring up mischief, eh Fingers?!)
[I'll concentrate on that part of your post for now - and leave the comparisons to religion and paganism til the next post (so that those that don't want to read can ignore them). Personally, I don't think they were helpful to your main point.]
So we should treat men and women the same. Agreed. A personal point of view now - I actually think the problem is not that women should 'be allowed' to do what they want. The problem is that the whole of our society has lost its self-control... men and women.
The two categories would then be:
1. Women who have self-control - i.e. they make choices, and don't just surrender to whichever emotion is powering their bodies.
2. Women who don't - and thus live their life at the whim of other factors (e.g. society, their friends, jerk boyfs etc).
I can already hear some people on here shouting/ranting at the word 'self-control', as though it is a dirty word on here (similar to morality on ASF).
PUA: Why should women/people be self-controlled? - that implies them subscribing to rules and regulations, and not doing what they want.
Rev: Nope. That would be living their life at the whim of other factors. It's not 'rules-controlled'. It's 'self-control'.
PUA: So what's the difference?
Rev: The difference is one of influence. A woman who has her sh!t together - who knows her sexuality and accepts it, yet who has a high enough self-esteem that she can make decisions on her own, without being influenced by society etc... such a woman is worth her weight in gold.
PUA: Well, aren't you saying here that she should just submit to her inner urges?
Rev: Again, no. That isn't self-control. That's self-aggrandisation. It takes account of the physical, but not the spiritual or mental. Is sleeping with many people the best for your spirit or mind? That's an individual choice, and one that you have to make.
Where the coming together of man and woman is a physical, emotional, spiritual and mental choice from both partners.... then wow - the sparks really fly.
Too much nowadays, I read of 'post-sex regrets' and the like, as the woman is only taking account of her physical urges, not the mental or spiritual brakes. Not a nice position to be in.
Anyhow, that's my 2 million pounds worth (worth way more than 2p!!). I'd be interested to hear your point of view on this, Fingz.
Rev.
PS Incidentally, I really HATE the words b!tches and hos. Each person is an individual, capable of so much. To degrade them to those categories is extremely sad. To quote Ms Aguillera; "You are beautiful, no matter what they say. Love can't bring you down."
Okay - a response to the original post (which, it has to be said, almost comes close to trolling!! - are you sure you aren't one of those Paganistic satyrs, just stirring up mischief, eh Fingers?!)
Not quite. Like you, I really don't think that's a helpful paradigm. I agree that everyone is born with hormones, and urges to go pro-create. I also agree that men who sleep with hundreds of women get notches in the bedpost and serious kudos, whereas women who sleep with hundreds of men get herpes, warts and the title of 'slut'.
[I'll concentrate on that part of your post for now - and leave the comparisons to religion and paganism til the next post (so that those that don't want to read can ignore them). Personally, I don't think they were helpful to your main point.]
So we should treat men and women the same. Agreed. A personal point of view now - I actually think the problem is not that women should 'be allowed' to do what they want. The problem is that the whole of our society has lost its self-control... men and women.
The two categories would then be:
1. Women who have self-control - i.e. they make choices, and don't just surrender to whichever emotion is powering their bodies.
2. Women who don't - and thus live their life at the whim of other factors (e.g. society, their friends, jerk boyfs etc).
I can already hear some people on here shouting/ranting at the word 'self-control', as though it is a dirty word on here (similar to morality on ASF).
PUA: Why should women/people be self-controlled? - that implies them subscribing to rules and regulations, and not doing what they want.
Rev: Nope. That would be living their life at the whim of other factors. It's not 'rules-controlled'. It's 'self-control'.
PUA: So what's the difference?
Rev: The difference is one of influence. A woman who has her sh!t together - who knows her sexuality and accepts it, yet who has a high enough self-esteem that she can make decisions on her own, without being influenced by society etc... such a woman is worth her weight in gold.
PUA: Well, aren't you saying here that she should just submit to her inner urges?
Rev: Again, no. That isn't self-control. That's self-aggrandisation. It takes account of the physical, but not the spiritual or mental. Is sleeping with many people the best for your spirit or mind? That's an individual choice, and one that you have to make.
Where the coming together of man and woman is a physical, emotional, spiritual and mental choice from both partners.... then wow - the sparks really fly.
Too much nowadays, I read of 'post-sex regrets' and the like, as the woman is only taking account of her physical urges, not the mental or spiritual brakes. Not a nice position to be in.
Anyhow, that's my 2 million pounds worth (worth way more than 2p!!). I'd be interested to hear your point of view on this, Fingz.
Rev.
PS Incidentally, I really HATE the words b!tches and hos. Each person is an individual, capable of so much. To degrade them to those categories is extremely sad. To quote Ms Aguillera; "You are beautiful, no matter what they say. Love can't bring you down."
Revelry
Don Juan
And now to tackle the "fun" part...
So, moving onto the religion and paganism debate.... skip this post if you're weary of it all!
Monsieur Fingers
That's an interesting view on 'history' you have there, and includes a lot of assumptions.
Firstly, I agree with you that all organised religions have a lot to answer for. There again, I would also include humanism, paganism, Satanism, any other 'ism'. Logically, the only conclusion I can make is that people themselves are the evil source - not the 'ism' that they stand for... that only acts as a vehicle (a remarkably effective one in some cases).
Next up - the Pagan era. You're assuming that it came before the Big Three. Breaking that down, you're assuming it came before Judaism, since that pre-dates Christianity (0BC) and Islam (600AD).
That assumption, from archeological evidence, doesn't hold water. Certainly not the worship of 'Mother Nature', which (I believe) dates from around 3000BC from evidence... around the same time as Judaism, with its concept of IHWH (Jahweh or Jehovah) - incidentally, that stands for I AM WHO I AM. Quite profound, when you think about it.
Anyhow, the assumption that Judaism (and then the others) 'tied down' the worship of Mother Nature (why mother?) is totally unprovable. Yes, each 'ism' rallies against any other 'ism'. And all the facets of the other 'ism'. So yes, Judaism rallied against Paganism, denouncing it as evil. Paganism attacked Judaism (check out the numerous historical battles, recorded outside the Talmud/Torah/Bible etc for unbiasedness!)... Rome and Greece both worshipped countless Gods within Nature - both attacked Christianity like it was a cancer. Christianity then attacked everyone else (Crusades, Middles Ages)... and so it goes on, with today's situation in the Middle East being a prime example (although a lot of that has to do with pride and desire for revenge, as much as the religions to which the people attach themselves, which all actually promote peace and harmony).
You also assume that 'divinity' is something that doesn't have an effect on humans; it's something we can choose, that's it's a human creation. What happens it it's not? What happens if there are gods or a God?
By definition, God/gods are more powerful than humans - so how come humans have this innate tendency to want to box them up and control them? Pride? A desire for power, even over gods/God?
What if gods/God couldn't be controlled? What if they weren't some human construct (such as our dear friend Pan - who as you admit, is a symbol of an ideaology, not a god)?
I'll stop there before I really start to rant... I don't want to get into a discussion of the actual religions/'ism's... rather to highlight some discrepancies.
No hatin' meant bro... chilled out discussion only. Unlike our dear friend,
Puerto-Rican Lover...
who appears to be a thoroughly well-balanced individual by having a chip on both shoulders.
Can we try to keep a perspective on things, Mr Lover? For example, comparing Muslim and Christian cultures... let's see:
BOTH have fundamentalist aspects. Some 'Christians' bomb everything - some 'Muslims' stone huge numbers of people (check out Africa for prime examples - 3 is not quite the whole story - perhaps closer to 30,000 at conservative estimates from the UN), using Sharia law as a justification.
BOTH have people within them that 'use' the religion as an excuse for violence. See 9/11, Crusades, George W (maybe), etc.
BOTH have the same problems, where freedom of action exists. The difference here is that freedom exists a lot more in Christian countries - therefore there's a lot more scope to do things without punishment. As Fingers said, the punishments in some middle Eastern, Indonesian and African countries are barbaric, and designed to dissuade anyone from doing anything wrong. Of course, all it does is move the propogation of the human nature elsewhere (no they don't rape women - yes, sometimes women's freedom is completely taken away, and they live their lives as if in captivity).
So which is better - restricting human beings freedom, to make sure they don't do anything wrong, or giving them the freedom to make the choice? I sure cannot say (hey, I'm only human
).
BOTH have fluctuating populations (you say Christianity is on the decrease, and Muslim on the rise)... in the West, Christianity has moved way for primarily Atheism/Agnosticism, and also Islam. In other parts of the world (Africa, Eastern Europe, Indonesia, China, South Korea etc), millions are converting to Christianity. Go figure.
BOTH hold, at their centre and stripping away a lot of the rubbish, eternal truths as sacred. This is a key point. The notion of absolute truth (or absolute principles, as Stephen Covey would put it) is being rubbished at the moment, which is the saddest thing of all.
So, Mr Lover, is conclusion I would ask to stop the hating and the constant comparisons, and concentrate on the character to be promoted. This board isn't about converting people - it's about developing yourself to be the best person you can be, and enouraging others to do likewise. Oh, and getting the girl while you're doing that!!
----------------
A short note on what I believe, since I feel it is unfair to debate other people's viewpoints without providing your own.
I believe in one God, not subject to human whims or desires. I believe that He created everything (whether that be through a Big Bang or 7 days, I don't know!), and thus a spark of divinity resides in everything. The Absolute Truths/Principles spring from this. I believe that something happened that made men inherently opposed to this God, and that most of men's spiritual searchings come down to the fact that we're conscious of this, and trying to restore the balance.
I also believe that because we're not God, we cannot restore the balance. Evidence proves to me that we are crap! Therefore, I came to the conclusion that it was God's job to sort it out => and eventually moved to Christianity as the logical conclusion (where God moves the restoration of the balance by putting the punishment on a substitute for us - namely his Son).
Nevertheless having said the above, I try to promote the character of God in everyone, regardless of religion, creed, faith or colour. Perspective is really important - take a step back from the paradigm, look at other paradigms, and always try to express the other person's viewpoint better than they could themselves.
Just rereading what I've written above, I actually think that was really useful for me. Write down a mission statement of beliefs and values, and see where it takes you. I'm off to continue in private....
Peace to all,
Rev.
So, moving onto the religion and paganism debate.... skip this post if you're weary of it all!
Monsieur Fingers
That's an interesting view on 'history' you have there, and includes a lot of assumptions.
Firstly, I agree with you that all organised religions have a lot to answer for. There again, I would also include humanism, paganism, Satanism, any other 'ism'. Logically, the only conclusion I can make is that people themselves are the evil source - not the 'ism' that they stand for... that only acts as a vehicle (a remarkably effective one in some cases).
Next up - the Pagan era. You're assuming that it came before the Big Three. Breaking that down, you're assuming it came before Judaism, since that pre-dates Christianity (0BC) and Islam (600AD).
That assumption, from archeological evidence, doesn't hold water. Certainly not the worship of 'Mother Nature', which (I believe) dates from around 3000BC from evidence... around the same time as Judaism, with its concept of IHWH (Jahweh or Jehovah) - incidentally, that stands for I AM WHO I AM. Quite profound, when you think about it.
Anyhow, the assumption that Judaism (and then the others) 'tied down' the worship of Mother Nature (why mother?) is totally unprovable. Yes, each 'ism' rallies against any other 'ism'. And all the facets of the other 'ism'. So yes, Judaism rallied against Paganism, denouncing it as evil. Paganism attacked Judaism (check out the numerous historical battles, recorded outside the Talmud/Torah/Bible etc for unbiasedness!)... Rome and Greece both worshipped countless Gods within Nature - both attacked Christianity like it was a cancer. Christianity then attacked everyone else (Crusades, Middles Ages)... and so it goes on, with today's situation in the Middle East being a prime example (although a lot of that has to do with pride and desire for revenge, as much as the religions to which the people attach themselves, which all actually promote peace and harmony).
You also assume that 'divinity' is something that doesn't have an effect on humans; it's something we can choose, that's it's a human creation. What happens it it's not? What happens if there are gods or a God?
By definition, God/gods are more powerful than humans - so how come humans have this innate tendency to want to box them up and control them? Pride? A desire for power, even over gods/God?
What if gods/God couldn't be controlled? What if they weren't some human construct (such as our dear friend Pan - who as you admit, is a symbol of an ideaology, not a god)?
I'll stop there before I really start to rant... I don't want to get into a discussion of the actual religions/'ism's... rather to highlight some discrepancies.
No hatin' meant bro... chilled out discussion only. Unlike our dear friend,
Puerto-Rican Lover...
who appears to be a thoroughly well-balanced individual by having a chip on both shoulders.
Can we try to keep a perspective on things, Mr Lover? For example, comparing Muslim and Christian cultures... let's see:
BOTH have fundamentalist aspects. Some 'Christians' bomb everything - some 'Muslims' stone huge numbers of people (check out Africa for prime examples - 3 is not quite the whole story - perhaps closer to 30,000 at conservative estimates from the UN), using Sharia law as a justification.
BOTH have people within them that 'use' the religion as an excuse for violence. See 9/11, Crusades, George W (maybe), etc.
BOTH have the same problems, where freedom of action exists. The difference here is that freedom exists a lot more in Christian countries - therefore there's a lot more scope to do things without punishment. As Fingers said, the punishments in some middle Eastern, Indonesian and African countries are barbaric, and designed to dissuade anyone from doing anything wrong. Of course, all it does is move the propogation of the human nature elsewhere (no they don't rape women - yes, sometimes women's freedom is completely taken away, and they live their lives as if in captivity).
So which is better - restricting human beings freedom, to make sure they don't do anything wrong, or giving them the freedom to make the choice? I sure cannot say (hey, I'm only human
).BOTH have fluctuating populations (you say Christianity is on the decrease, and Muslim on the rise)... in the West, Christianity has moved way for primarily Atheism/Agnosticism, and also Islam. In other parts of the world (Africa, Eastern Europe, Indonesia, China, South Korea etc), millions are converting to Christianity. Go figure.
BOTH hold, at their centre and stripping away a lot of the rubbish, eternal truths as sacred. This is a key point. The notion of absolute truth (or absolute principles, as Stephen Covey would put it) is being rubbished at the moment, which is the saddest thing of all.
So, Mr Lover, is conclusion I would ask to stop the hating and the constant comparisons, and concentrate on the character to be promoted. This board isn't about converting people - it's about developing yourself to be the best person you can be, and enouraging others to do likewise. Oh, and getting the girl while you're doing that!!
----------------
A short note on what I believe, since I feel it is unfair to debate other people's viewpoints without providing your own.
I believe in one God, not subject to human whims or desires. I believe that He created everything (whether that be through a Big Bang or 7 days, I don't know!), and thus a spark of divinity resides in everything. The Absolute Truths/Principles spring from this. I believe that something happened that made men inherently opposed to this God, and that most of men's spiritual searchings come down to the fact that we're conscious of this, and trying to restore the balance.
I also believe that because we're not God, we cannot restore the balance. Evidence proves to me that we are crap! Therefore, I came to the conclusion that it was God's job to sort it out => and eventually moved to Christianity as the logical conclusion (where God moves the restoration of the balance by putting the punishment on a substitute for us - namely his Son).
Nevertheless having said the above, I try to promote the character of God in everyone, regardless of religion, creed, faith or colour. Perspective is really important - take a step back from the paradigm, look at other paradigms, and always try to express the other person's viewpoint better than they could themselves.
Just rereading what I've written above, I actually think that was really useful for me. Write down a mission statement of beliefs and values, and see where it takes you. I'm off to continue in private....
Peace to all,
Rev.
Mr. Fingers
Senior Don Juan
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Re: You're a bad man, Fingz!
I grew up as a strict Christian and have had the idea hammered into me for over a decade that fornication is a grave sin. Indeed, I was even told that masturbation makes God angry!
I spent my teen years like many of my church-going peers, caught up in a cycle of forbidden pleasure and shame.
Eventually I left the church behind and started to get into relationships. I became a serial monogamist, jumping from one relationship to the next, not so much because I was in love, as much as a part of me was still holding onto the values that were imposed on me. I figured sex was okay as long as it was within the confines of commitment..sort of a "mini-marriage"
In the last year-and-a-half I watched as my success with women skyrocketed to the point where I was hooking up with a different girl every week. (I have earned quite a reputation for myself in the process!) I felt like a pimp and things couldn´t be better...or so I thought.
Recently I had an old flame visit me. We had a brief "rekindling" and it really changed me. Made me totally see the difference between a good-natured romp in the sack and an actual connection....REAL chemistry. Boy those sparks were flying!
Fast forward a few weeks later and I found myself bored with the meaningless encounters. I wanted that magical connection again.
Now I find myself meeting just as many women, but being WAY more selective and turning down the no-frills booty.
I am starting to see that my rampant promiscuity was just a phase in my life, a way of confronting something that I always feared would damn me for eternity. Having faced it, I have regained some of my old values for my sexuality, saving it for a woman who is worthy, someone who is intellectually and emotionally stimulating.
I felt this way in my AFC days, but it was mostly out of fear of the eternal consequences. Now it is MY choice, and that makes all the difference in the world to me!
In the end it really is a matter of self-respect. Placing a high value on your intimacy and controlling those urges, not because some dude on a cloud will strike you down to a fiery pit of endless agony, but because YOU have made the choice for yourself!
REALLY good response, Rev!
MUAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAA!
Agreed. Except I would probably call it "self-respect" but thats just semantics.
A little personal story to corroborate this:
I grew up as a strict Christian and have had the idea hammered into me for over a decade that fornication is a grave sin. Indeed, I was even told that masturbation makes God angry!
I spent my teen years like many of my church-going peers, caught up in a cycle of forbidden pleasure and shame.
Eventually I left the church behind and started to get into relationships. I became a serial monogamist, jumping from one relationship to the next, not so much because I was in love, as much as a part of me was still holding onto the values that were imposed on me. I figured sex was okay as long as it was within the confines of commitment..sort of a "mini-marriage"
In the last year-and-a-half I watched as my success with women skyrocketed to the point where I was hooking up with a different girl every week. (I have earned quite a reputation for myself in the process!) I felt like a pimp and things couldn´t be better...or so I thought.
Recently I had an old flame visit me. We had a brief "rekindling" and it really changed me. Made me totally see the difference between a good-natured romp in the sack and an actual connection....REAL chemistry. Boy those sparks were flying!
Fast forward a few weeks later and I found myself bored with the meaningless encounters. I wanted that magical connection again.
Now I find myself meeting just as many women, but being WAY more selective and turning down the no-frills booty.
I am starting to see that my rampant promiscuity was just a phase in my life, a way of confronting something that I always feared would damn me for eternity. Having faced it, I have regained some of my old values for my sexuality, saving it for a woman who is worthy, someone who is intellectually and emotionally stimulating.
I felt this way in my AFC days, but it was mostly out of fear of the eternal consequences. Now it is MY choice, and that makes all the difference in the world to me!
In the end it really is a matter of self-respect. Placing a high value on your intimacy and controlling those urges, not because some dude on a cloud will strike you down to a fiery pit of endless agony, but because YOU have made the choice for yourself!
REALLY good response, Rev!
I have to disagree with this, from personal experience. I've just completed an in-depth course in sexuality, and if I learned anything it's that any human, male or female, can have mind blowing orgasms of varying kinds and varying length, once they are connected to their sexuality. There's a lot more to an orgasm than a splooge.Originally posted by Mr. Fingers
Once a woman is truly connected to her sexuality, I believe she is capable of enjoying sex much more than a man can. Chicks are not only multi-orgasmic, but also have different TYPES of orgasms.
Guys? We just have one quick spooj and we´re done! (Unless the girl is unusually hot....and patient
However, there are far less men that are actually in touch with their sexuality (or any other part of themselves) than women, so for the majority of the population the women will be having better orgasms than the men.
I think the 'Ho' mentality comes from one perspective - self control. We believe that it's relatively hard for a man to think to himself "I want to get laid", and then to go out and get laid. So any man who bags a lot of chicks is held up as something a bit special. We also believe that any average woman could get laid pretty much anytime she wanted to, if she wasn't too fussy about who she did it with.
And that's where the difference lies. If a man lays a lot of different girls, it's because he's got something other guys don't. If a woman lays a lot of guys, it's because she's not very picky. She's not got something other women don't have. That's what we've been led to believe and to a certain extent I think it's true. I don't think that means she's a ho though. A ho has sex in exchange for something else.
Are you insane!? Islam totally allows men to dominate women and treat them like sh*t. They make them cover their entire body, they can't shake a mans hand, they can't wear makeup outside the house, the list goes on and on. How would you like to be told what you can and can't wear, what you can and can't do, where you can go, who you can talk to....by a woman? Well I'm sure that Muslim women don't like being treated like this by men.
Women in America are allowed to wear bikini's, thongs, listen to any kind of music they dang well want -- but that has nothing to do with religion. It is b/c we are free! You are allowed to make the choice to wear a thong if you want, it is a moral choice for you, and it is between you and God. We have sep of church and state. Islamic nations do not have seperation of church and state. Look at every Muslim nation in the world and almost all of them have a government that is completely intertwined with the religion. Hell you can be arrested if you don't follow the laws of the Koran. That is why these islamic women don't get to wear thongs, or bikini's or whatever.
When you say Christian societies kill more woman, you make it out like it is the Christian teachings behind these acts. See, America might be viewed as a Christian society, but the majority of the people that live here, while claiming to be Christian, do not follow the teachings of Christ. So if a man claims he is a Christian, yet beats his wife, he is not following the teachings of Christ or the Christian doctrine. So it is not the Christian society that is causing harm to these women, but merely corrupt men who do not follow it's teachings.
Mr. Fingers
Senior Don Juan
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True. I have personally experienced multiple-O´s before, but that was a rarity.
But you cant argue the fact that women are the only gender that have an organ designed SPECIFICALLY for sexual pleasure. The ****oris is a magical thing!
Self-control stems from self-respect, which is much more rewarding than socially imposed-control.
This sounds more like a wh0re to me. Or if not, a gold-digger. Where I´m from (NYC) hoes are considered to be loose women who screw just about eveyone, not so much for personal gain, but because they are horny and lack the self-respect to reserve the intimacy for a man who truy deserves it.
Revelry
Don Juan
The satyr speaks.... ;b
Now I KNOW you're trouble!
I think self-respect then comes out of self-control... as you grow the personal integrity (i.e. you grow the amount you can trust yourself), you also grow the respect you have for yourself, and develop a high self esteem.
But maybe that's still just semantics
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Some quick comments on your story (and thank you for it)- I don't want to concentrate on it, as it is your life, and thus sacred to you. I obviously do not know you well enough to pass proper comment. Saying that, I'm a nosy S.O.B......
For me, it isn't rules and regulations (and like you, Fingz, I too had severe difficulties with that in my teens - the guilt and shame-cycle was not helpful in the slightest). It's about a relationship.
Let me put it like this - I do things for my best friends because I want to. For example, I might give one of them a lift to work. Is this because he told me to? No - he may suggest it, but the choice is totally mine. He's pleased if I do it, and the friendship deepens as a result. He also gives things back in return, thus perpetuating the cycle.
Anyhow... again, I shall stop there. I can respect the fact that this board is not about that.
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Back to the point... let's concentrate on the fact that the best women are those who have values similar to ours, intelligence, high self esteem, HD, and hot bodies! Let's all pledge to come from the abundance mentality, and not to settle for anything below that! Because, as Fingers says, when you do find someone like that, the sparks REALLY fly!!
Rev.
[edited for brevity]
As the evil laughter drifts into the background.........
Now I KNOW you're trouble!
I'm not sure it is. Self-control comes from the idea of having integrity to oneself, and having the discipline to maintain and nurture that integrity.
I think self-respect then comes out of self-control... as you grow the personal integrity (i.e. you grow the amount you can trust yourself), you also grow the respect you have for yourself, and develop a high self esteem.
But maybe that's still just semantics
------------------------
Some quick comments on your story (and thank you for it)- I don't want to concentrate on it, as it is your life, and thus sacred to you. I obviously do not know you well enough to pass proper comment. Saying that, I'm a nosy S.O.B......
In many ways, that depresses me. And, as we see from the rest of your story, totally counter-intuitive (since it pushed you away, rather than pulling you in).
Agreed, but what if YOU make the choice to develop a character like that of God? Then it is YOUR choice, and you are still placing high value on your intimacy and controlling urges, because YOU want to.
For me, it isn't rules and regulations (and like you, Fingz, I too had severe difficulties with that in my teens - the guilt and shame-cycle was not helpful in the slightest). It's about a relationship.
Let me put it like this - I do things for my best friends because I want to. For example, I might give one of them a lift to work. Is this because he told me to? No - he may suggest it, but the choice is totally mine. He's pleased if I do it, and the friendship deepens as a result. He also gives things back in return, thus perpetuating the cycle.
Anyhow... again, I shall stop there. I can respect the fact that this board is not about that.
------------------------
Back to the point... let's concentrate on the fact that the best women are those who have values similar to ours, intelligence, high self esteem, HD, and hot bodies! Let's all pledge to come from the abundance mentality, and not to settle for anything below that! Because, as Fingers says, when you do find someone like that, the sparks REALLY fly!!
Thank you. The respect is completely mutual, Fingz.
Rev.
[edited for brevity]
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Mr. Fingers
Senior Don Juan
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Re: And now to tackle the "fun" part...
The Bible says it best. "The love of money is the root of all evil"
Thats right, Money in and of itself is benign. It is the LOVE of personal gain that takes the beauty of spirituality and turns it into an "ism", a means of control and/or a license to commit atrocities.
Did you know that the very first slave ship that sent hundreds of Africans to Amercia was named "Jesus"? How many other attrocities have been committed in the name of the almighty Ism? Far too many.
Well, that was the last straw! Both Islam and Judaism had some catching up to do! It has been a struggle for dominance ever since, with the crusades all the way up to 9/11 with Bush claiming he was "ordained by God" to wage war on terrorism, and the Muslims screaming back a rallying cry of "JIHAD!"
First of all. THere is no need to prove that modern religions have suppressed the female essence within the divine. At the end of your post, you prove this yourself...
You wanna know what I believe?
That there is a huge mystery out there that we have no way of grasping. Only people who have experienced death know for sure what lies beyond the grave! We all must take leaps of faith to come to terms with the Grand Puzzle, so here is my leap...
I believe there is a God and that every living thing is a part of this divine entity. It is not a He or a She.
To me God is simply the art of existence, a Master Creator that can be found within the essence of life itself.
In the Dead Sea scrolls (which were suppressed by the Catholic church and did not make it into the Bible) Jesus himself said.
"There will come the enemies of peace who will rise up to cast wars and cause division, but I shall guard the world till the world is set afire for I am the Fire, I am the Light, I am the Light beyond them all, I AM the All! The All came forth from me and the All was imparted unto me. And if you ever wish to find me, just lift a piece of wood and break it apart and I am there, pick up a leaf and I´ll be there, break a stone and I´m inside."
Kind of eliminates the need for a religious establishent doesnt it? You can see why the Vatican felt so threatened by this and have discredited it since day one, despite the archealogical evidence that states otherwise.
Word of God or Word of Man? Ultimately it is your choice.
At the end of the day, I believe that there is much truth and wisdom to be found in these religions and I totally respect people of faith, because hey, we all have to believe in SOMETHING.
What I cant stand is the self-righteousness. The stubborn view that everyone else MUST be wrong.
It is this self-importance that has caused so much destruction in this world. If only we had demonized self-righteousness instead of sexuality ... How different the world would be!
Of course it is the people behind the "isms". My point is that often times there is a genuine message of compassion, nobility and respect that gets twisted by people with an agenda. Religion is such a personal thing, that often time people use it as a tool to get what they want.
The Bible says it best. "The love of money is the root of all evil"
Thats right, Money in and of itself is benign. It is the LOVE of personal gain that takes the beauty of spirituality and turns it into an "ism", a means of control and/or a license to commit atrocities.
Did you know that the very first slave ship that sent hundreds of Africans to Amercia was named "Jesus"? How many other attrocities have been committed in the name of the almighty Ism? Far too many.
I never assumed that. Here is what I said:
Judaism co-existed with paganism for centuries, but was confined to Israel. It wasn´t until the time of Islam and later, Chrisitanity, that it began to reach outside of its borders and take on more of an imperial momentum. Sh!t really hit the fan when Constantine declared Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, which at the time controlled most of the known world.
Well, that was the last straw! Both Islam and Judaism had some catching up to do! It has been a struggle for dominance ever since, with the crusades all the way up to 9/11 with Bush claiming he was "ordained by God" to wage war on terrorism, and the Muslims screaming back a rallying cry of "JIHAD!"
Haha. I am LOVING this debate!
First of all. THere is no need to prove that modern religions have suppressed the female essence within the divine. At the end of your post, you prove this yourself...
WHoa..back up a second there..Did you just call God a He?So now who is the symbol of ideology? Isnt the very concept of a God who has a c0ck a human construct?
You wanna know what I believe?
That there is a huge mystery out there that we have no way of grasping. Only people who have experienced death know for sure what lies beyond the grave! We all must take leaps of faith to come to terms with the Grand Puzzle, so here is my leap...
I believe there is a God and that every living thing is a part of this divine entity. It is not a He or a She.
To me God is simply the art of existence, a Master Creator that can be found within the essence of life itself.
In the Dead Sea scrolls (which were suppressed by the Catholic church and did not make it into the Bible) Jesus himself said.
"There will come the enemies of peace who will rise up to cast wars and cause division, but I shall guard the world till the world is set afire for I am the Fire, I am the Light, I am the Light beyond them all, I AM the All! The All came forth from me and the All was imparted unto me. And if you ever wish to find me, just lift a piece of wood and break it apart and I am there, pick up a leaf and I´ll be there, break a stone and I´m inside."
Kind of eliminates the need for a religious establishent doesnt it? You can see why the Vatican felt so threatened by this and have discredited it since day one, despite the archealogical evidence that states otherwise.
Word of God or Word of Man? Ultimately it is your choice.
At the end of the day, I believe that there is much truth and wisdom to be found in these religions and I totally respect people of faith, because hey, we all have to believe in SOMETHING.
What I cant stand is the self-righteousness. The stubborn view that everyone else MUST be wrong.
It is this self-importance that has caused so much destruction in this world. If only we had demonized self-righteousness instead of sexuality ... How different the world would be!
Revelry
Don Juan
Behind the hype...?
Seriously though, I agree that pride, lust for power etc is the key behind it all.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that all three became tools for gaining power and wealth - one of the worst examples is the empire-building through the use of Christianity in Latin America, stripping the continent of much of it's legacy, honour and history in the process. Like you, I've been down there (Peru, Nicaragua, Colombia, Guatemala, Mexico), and it's such a rich heritage, you can't imagine the amount of hate that would have to be dredged up to allow a group of people to destroy it all. In the end, for power and wealth. Very sad.
However, it's kinda pointless (since nothing changes), but fun nevertheless. Also, it's good to debate the point, without attacking the person.
I'll explain my paradigm. If God created humans, and created them in His image, then it isn't God who's a human construct, but rather humans who are a God construct (as it were!).
So why should God be a He rather than a SHE? Take a look at all the hints and tips on this website. See what qualities/attributes the PUA is supposed to develop to be a MAN. Now compare them to the character of God (whatever you suppose it to be!).
Then take a woman's attributes and do the same.
It's a no-brainer in my opinion! It fits for me, and that's the most I can say. If it doesn't for you, then you can find your own path - no worries.
The next question is whether or not God has a character, or a personality, AT ALL. Within your quote from the Dead Sea scrolls (the original language probably captures the nuances better than English), there are a lot of 'I's. I don't think this really helps your point. Jesus says everything came from him, not everything is him. The last sentence (if I remember the original) could be intepreted as saying that the 'imprint' of God can be found in everything - i.e. you can see his 'hand' in everything around you.
Getting away from the Dead Sea Scrolls for a moment (about which there is a lot of debate), the same thing is said in John 1... namely, 'Through him all things were made, without him nothing was made that has been made'.
If I'm sounding defensive/self-righteous there, sorry 'bout that! The problem of communicating by text - and a good reason why number closes are better than emails, and insta-dates/meets are better still.
Not that I'm trying to date Fingers... although I'm sure he'd make a very nice friend!
Moving on swiftly.......
(nevertheless, I can sympathise with the viewpoint that if your faith is right, everything else is wrong. For me, it was the combination of experiential, factual and emotional evidence that led to my faith - if I said everything else had equal validity, it wouldn't be much of a faith, would it?).
(the difference is when people are victimised on the basis of their faith - that's then self-righteousness and insecurity - i.e. people so insecure in their own faith that they need to force people to agree with them).
Suggest we stop soon!... these threads can get very long (and eventually heated as other people join in).
---------
Therefore, let's go back to how this applies to bettering yourself and picking up women.
1. Having the ability to laugh at yourself (diminishing self-importance) is good. It shows security and high self esteem.
2. Self-control, self-respect and integrity to self are ALL good things to develop. Particularly within the context of becoming a Don Juan (a true DJ, not just a playa).
3. Never settle for second best with women. Always look for someone who is fully compatible with you. (this also helps develop the 'I am the prize' mentality, without the accompanying downsides such as arrogance).
Very jealous of you down there in sunny Espana... pissing it down in Paris and London at the mo... oh, and George W has just come into town. No offence to Americans on these boards, but he's really buggered up the transport system in central London!
Laters,
Rev.
Amen, brother. Preach it!!!
Seriously though, I agree that pride, lust for power etc is the key behind it all.
Foul!! You said Paganism reigned supreme, and then the Big 3 came along...... (paraphrased).
Nevertheless, I agree with you that all three became tools for gaining power and wealth - one of the worst examples is the empire-building through the use of Christianity in Latin America, stripping the continent of much of it's legacy, honour and history in the process. Like you, I've been down there (Peru, Nicaragua, Colombia, Guatemala, Mexico), and it's such a rich heritage, you can't imagine the amount of hate that would have to be dredged up to allow a group of people to destroy it all. In the end, for power and wealth. Very sad.
Agreed! I get the feeling you were rolling your sleeves up at this point!
However, it's kinda pointless (since nothing changes), but fun nevertheless. Also, it's good to debate the point, without attacking the person.
Ahem. Not my intention. What I would like to prove is that there IS a female essence within the divine AT ALL!
I'll explain my paradigm. If God created humans, and created them in His image, then it isn't God who's a human construct, but rather humans who are a God construct (as it were!).
So why should God be a He rather than a SHE? Take a look at all the hints and tips on this website. See what qualities/attributes the PUA is supposed to develop to be a MAN. Now compare them to the character of God (whatever you suppose it to be!).
Then take a woman's attributes and do the same.
It's a no-brainer in my opinion! It fits for me, and that's the most I can say. If it doesn't for you, then you can find your own path - no worries.
The next question is whether or not God has a character, or a personality, AT ALL. Within your quote from the Dead Sea scrolls (the original language probably captures the nuances better than English), there are a lot of 'I's. I don't think this really helps your point. Jesus says everything came from him, not everything is him. The last sentence (if I remember the original) could be intepreted as saying that the 'imprint' of God can be found in everything - i.e. you can see his 'hand' in everything around you.
Getting away from the Dead Sea Scrolls for a moment (about which there is a lot of debate), the same thing is said in John 1... namely, 'Through him all things were made, without him nothing was made that has been made'.
If I'm sounding defensive/self-righteous there, sorry 'bout that! The problem of communicating by text - and a good reason why number closes are better than emails, and insta-dates/meets are better still.
Not that I'm trying to date Fingers...
although I'm sure he'd make a very nice friend! Moving on swiftly.......
TOTALLY agree. So let's go on a mission to diminish self-righteousness!
(nevertheless, I can sympathise with the viewpoint that if your faith is right, everything else is wrong. For me, it was the combination of experiential, factual and emotional evidence that led to my faith - if I said everything else had equal validity, it wouldn't be much of a faith, would it?).
(the difference is when people are victimised on the basis of their faith - that's then self-righteousness and insecurity - i.e. people so insecure in their own faith that they need to force people to agree with them).
Suggest we stop soon!... these threads can get very long (and eventually heated as other people join in).
---------
Therefore, let's go back to how this applies to bettering yourself and picking up women.
1. Having the ability to laugh at yourself (diminishing self-importance) is good. It shows security and high self esteem.
2. Self-control, self-respect and integrity to self are ALL good things to develop. Particularly within the context of becoming a Don Juan (a true DJ, not just a playa).
3. Never settle for second best with women. Always look for someone who is fully compatible with you. (this also helps develop the 'I am the prize' mentality, without the accompanying downsides such as arrogance).
Very jealous of you down there in sunny Espana... pissing it down in Paris and London at the mo... oh, and George W has just come into town. No offence to Americans on these boards, but he's really buggered up the transport system in central London!
Laters,
Rev.