attitude on sosuave

[guru1000]

UNfortunately you bought into that facile belief that men who refer to women as "low quality" are merely buffering themselves against rejection or protecting their egos against recent past rejection by her or other women.

Problem here Jophil is a prostitute will hold on to the belief EVERYONE is a prostitute. No sacrifices were ever made to note the difference of quality in themselves. As such, the quality myth is used as a buffer to protect their standards or shall we say lack of. Yet when I drive around in my 550 benz, I can't help but realize not every car was made the same.

 

[jophil28]

Yet when I drive around in my 550 benz, I can't help but realize not every car was made same.

Point made.

 

[skEwb]

I think that our lives have all taught us that in general we can't trust women. Well, the fact is you can't trust most people out there when it comes to sex and who's going to stab you in the back.

I think that men on here who don't like their girlfriends going out solo with other men have seen just how easily some people are turned and carry suspicion with them into their relationships. This is actually probably the more realistic way to be, truth be told. Or maybe I just grew up around too much poor white trash.

So what these men want, and I agree with them, is for their woman to be "above suspicion". If the situation were reversed I would not go out with a an ex-gf alone or even just a female friend alone if I were dating someone else. I don't talk about the Hollywood actresses I have crushes on in front of anyone I'm dating. Heck, I don't even look at porn while dating someone because I think it's disrespectful. I do this and other little things because I see the world and the people in it as inherently not worthy of trust, and I want to give off as many signs that I can be trusted as I can. Which is why I behave in a manner that doesn't even put me into a situation that appears that I could be compromised.

If the woman I am dating is not willing to act in a similar manner, then I have less trust for her. Of course this system for weeding bad people out of my life isn't fool proof, but then nothing is.

I used to have this issue. I got rid of it by simply not caring anymore. I'm not saying everyone has to do it this way, but if you care you're the one that gets hurt. If she cheats, that's on her and vice versa.

When you become a detective about a woman and start looking into her, it's pretty much a good time to either end it or prove your doubts are correct.

We live in a random world filled with many different kinds of unique people. They will all do as they please, you're not here to change them, you're just here to mingle with them.

One can only change if one is open to the idea, not if you try to force them into it.

The reason I'm saying this is that I suffered more than the person doing the wrongdoing, because I cared more. A relationship typically is never 50/50 someone ends up caring more and pushing the percentage which further drives the other person to have more of a reason to do something you don't want them to.

I think the key is to keep the care level even, if possible, if not.. try to swing the care level more your way and suffer less

 

[Luthor Rex]

I used to have this issue. I got rid of it by simply not caring anymore. I'm not saying everyone has to do it this way, but if you care you're the one that gets hurt. If she cheats, that's on her and vice versa.

The reason I'm saying this is that I suffered more than the person doing the wrongdoing, because I cared more. A relationship typically is never 50/50 someone ends up caring more and pushing the percentage which further drives the other person to have more of a reason to do something you don't want them to.

I think the key is to keep the care level even, if possible, if not.. try to swing the care level more your way and suffer less

"Whomever cares the least, wins."

I understand what you are saying and I see this kind of thing in action around me all the time. While I can't disagree with your method, because it does work, I still don't like it really. My problem is, if I turn my feeling off (or even way down), I don't find the relationship fulfilling. No matter what I'm getting out of it, it'll feel like a waste of time.

What I've come to realize is that I've grown up sheltered. But not sheltered in a way that most people think about. I live south of Baltimore and north of Washington D.C.. I live in an area surrounded predominantly by two kinds of people: government employees and white trash. Lots and lots of white trash.

I never realized just how bad it was until I started to travel. I never realized that cities could actually be clean! I could eat out of Las Vegas' gutters compared to this place. I never realized just how (generally) dirty, ugly, and rude the people who live in this area are until I started seeing other parts of America. (I imagine my perspective will change again if I ever start traveling internationally.) I always knew things were different in other places, but I never realized how different.

That included the women. The women around here (again, generally) are stupid, selfish, cousin-lovin' white trash. If you're a guy on here who thinks all women are lying selfish-wh0res, you've got one of two problems: either you're messed up in the head, or you live a bad area. I first started seeing the difference when working with guys who are poor and straight out of Baltimore city.

These guys live in the parts of the city where you have to sneak your new TV into your house and make sure no one sees you if you don't want to get it stolen. I got to meet their women, and yes the quality did drop. It becomes more obvious the bigger the gap that exists. Now, these guys didn't know any better because literally these were the only kinds of women they have ever known.

Since I've gotten to travel around, I got to see other families that you would think just stepped right out of Leave it to B3aver. Yes, they were for real I investigated them thoroughly. lol

Quality people are real, but you won't believe they are if you've never met them or spent time with them. I'm guessing a lot of the people who complain about women on this board may very well live in a bad area and just don't realize that they do because they have never seen anything else.

If you do look around yourself and find a human waste dump, start planing your escape.

Fight for your future.

 

[Mr. Me]

"A woman in a relationship should not have male friends" sounds insecure to me.

But I'm not saying she shouldn't have male friends. I'm saying she shouldn't be the type that goes out with her male friends solo (or attention wh@ring in a group of male friends).

It is up to HER to set boundaries. If she doesn't set proper boundaries, you will eventually find out and you get rid of her.

Exactly! I'm not saying we dictate these terms to her, it has to come from her. It has to be in her character.

And the kind of woman I'd want to be with would have this as her boundary: when a male co-worker or friend says "hey, let's grab a drink, just you and me", she says, "Thanks, but I'll pass!" because she doesn't wish to give even the slightest hint of impropriety, innocent as it may be. And she'll do that because she values respecting her primary relationship. I've met women like this.

When you have a girl who doesn't care much about all that, well, she's the one likely to accept those dates. But like I just said she doesn't care about/respect the primary relationship as much as she should, which is why she can make that date without concern.

Would it be disrespectful of your girl to go out with a mixed group if you aren't able to attend? See where things can get blurry?

That's not blurry at all. Being in a mixed group is way different then accepting a one on one with a guy. Mixed group acts as a buffer. Even if one of the guys tries hitting on her, the right kind of woman is going to say "no" and not give out any flirting signals.

lets say you went out of town on business, and your g/f or wife happens to have a single friend in town visiting, and this single friend happened to know a lot of people in the area and invited a bunch of guys and girls to go out for the night?

I would even go so far as to say that the right woman, being astute, would ask that single guy "is it okay if I bring my boy friend along?".

I think part of your mind set is that you're so used to the "wrong" type of women around you that you accept it as the material you have to work with, whereas I keep an ideal in mind so I can match it up when I cross paths with a woman who comes close to resembling it.

To get back to the thread's topic, and tie it all up:

If guys were more selective about the women they date and get into relationships with, so as to weed out the flirts and attention wh@ores and the girls with low respect and who don't concern themselves with taking care of their relationships when other men want their time and attention, then you wouldn't have the preponderance of threads where guys lament about their girlfriends and situations and ask others for advice, where the older, experienced guys who have learned these lessons the hard way give the kind of advice that the OP is admonishing we don't give.

 

[Bronxtal112]

To get back to the thread's topic, and tie it all up:

If guys were more selective about the women they date and get into relationships with, so as to weed out the flirts and attention wh@ores and the girls with low respect and who don't concern themselves with taking care of their relationships when other men want their time and attention, then you wouldn't have the preponderance of threads where guys lament about their girlfriends and situations and ask others for advice, where the older, experienced guys who have learned these lessons the hard way give the kind of advice that the OP is admonishing we don't give.

The summary goes hand-in-hand with Doc Loves system. This thread should go in the archive. Good stuff.

 

[Bronxtal112]

Exactly! I'm not saying we dictate these terms to her, it has to come from her. It has to be in her character.

Can't agree more. It's almost like - Give her some rope and see if she hangs herself.

 

[Jeffst1980]

The problem is that this whole thread is discussing an isolated issue--should your girlfriend be allowed to hang out with another man?--without taking into consideration the context of the issue. Part of responding effectively to conflict is being able to read the underlying motivations of the other party, rather than simply applying a knee jerk response based on absolutes.

There isn't a consensus on a hard and fast rule here because so much depends on the individual case. Women DO have varying degrees of loyalty and fidelity, and even the least loyal ones will present every questionable male encounter as innocuous. It is thereby crucial that you are able to recognize where your woman falls on this continuum--not only so you know when you should be concerned, but more importantly so you know if this is a girl you can be with long term.

The only way you can surmise any of this is by observing her actions.

If your girlfriend has a history of cheating on past boyfriends, she is not relationship material.

If your girlfriend cheated on just one boyfriend, she is not relationship material.

If your girlfriend has a habit of trying to make you jealous by talking about guys that are interested in her as a way to get a reaction out of you, she is not relationship material.

If your girlfriend continues to "lead on" orbiter AFCs that want to get in her pants, she is not relationship material.

But, if you are fortunate enough to find a woman with ZERO history of infidelity, that respects you enough to avoid putting herself in situations in which infidelity is possible, that has demonstrated that she values your trust more than attention from other guys, and that understands that a healthy relationship has no room for jealousy and power struggles...THAT is a woman that you can trust.

This makes any discussion about whether you should allow your girlfriend to (x) pretty much unnecessary. In healthy, correct relationships, this stuff simply is NOT AN ISSUE.

In healthy relationships, conflict is about things such as family and financial matters, plans for the future, and general personality habits. People in healthy relationships don't fight about high school s#it or try to make one another jealous.

The whole process of studying this stuff is NOT to maintain or "fix" broken relationships--it's to have your s#it together to the point that when you find a girl worth keeping, you don't screw everything up by going AFC on her.

Unfortunately, most of the stories people bring here deal with incredibly dysfunctional relationships, where "nexting" is the only answer. You don't hear about problems such as trust and infidelity issues in healthy relationships--because they simply AREN'T ISSUES in those.

Expect to have to 'next' A LOT of girls because of this. Expect to have a lot of perceived failures. Whatever you do, don't lower your standards and start subscribing to the idea that all women will exhibit s#itty behavior so that you can justify 'settling down.' Just understand that filtering women out is part of the process. When you find yourself in a healthy, functional relationship, everything becomes very straightforward.

 

[darkstarrr]

The problem is that this whole thread is discussing an isolated issue--should your girlfriend be allowed to hang out with another man?--without taking into consideration the context of the issue. Part of responding effectively to conflict is being able to read the underlying motivations of the other party, rather than simply applying a knee jerk response based on absolutes.

There isn't a consensus on a hard and fast rule here because so much depends on the individual case. Women DO have varying degrees of loyalty and fidelity, and even the least loyal ones will present every questionable male encounter as innocuous. It is thereby crucial that you are able to recognize where your woman falls on this continuum--not only so you know when you should be concerned, but more importantly so you know if this is a girl you can be with long term.

The only way you can surmise any of this is by observing her actions.

If your girlfriend has a history of cheating on past boyfriends, she is not relationship material.

If your girlfriend cheated on just one boyfriend, she is not relationship material.

If your girlfriend has a habit of trying to make you jealous by talking about guys that are interested in her as a way to get a reaction out of you, she is not relationship material.

If your girlfriend continues to "lead on" orbiter AFCs that want to get in her pants, she is not relationship material.

But, if you are fortunate enough to find a woman with ZERO history of infidelity, that respects you enough to avoid putting herself in situations in which infidelity is possible, that has demonstrated that she values your trust more than attention from other guys, and that understands that a healthy relationship has no room for jealousy and power struggles...THAT is a woman that you can trust.

This makes any discussion about whether you should allow your girlfriend to (x) pretty much unnecessary. In healthy, correct relationships, this stuff simply is NOT AN ISSUE.

In healthy relationships, conflict is about things such as family and financial matters, plans for the future, and general personality habits. People in healthy relationships don't fight about high school s#it or try to make one another jealous.

The whole process of studying this stuff is NOT to maintain or "fix" broken relationships--it's to have your s#it together to the point that when you find a girl worth keeping, you don't screw everything up by going AFC on her.

Unfortunately, most of the stories people bring here deal with incredibly dysfunctional relationships, where "nexting" is the only answer. You don't hear about problems such as trust and infidelity issues in healthy relationships--because they simply AREN'T ISSUES in those.

Expect to have to 'next' A LOT of girls because of this. Expect to have a lot of perceived failures. Whatever you do, don't lower your standards and start subscribing to the idea that all women will exhibit s#itty behavior so that you can justify 'settling down.' Just understand that filtering women out is part of the process. When you find yourself in a healthy, functional relationship, everything becomes very straightforward.

 

[STR8UP]

Jeffst1980,

Well said.

I think we have all been arguing over some very small differences, and you pretty much nailed it better than I could have.

I do agree with the notion that if you pick the right woman, you won't have these problems...and yet I simultaneously agree that the context of any situation will dictate whether it is appropriate (therefore it cannot be a hard and fast rule).

On the surface it seems like a small difference, but I think it goes a lot deeper than it looks.

The reason I am so adamant about guys not making the mistake of buying into this idea that one day they will find a girl who is "different" is because I see it as something that is just as damaging as the Soulmate Myth.

I hear the term "Soul Mate" and it makes me wanna puke. I just heard a guy say it on a eHarmony commercial 30 seconds ago.

Would any of these guys who believe in "quality" women be caught dead telling their buddies that their new girl is "different"? I highly doubt it, because they know better. 99% of relationships end, and many of them end on less than happy terms. I have had women who treated me well, but after going through enough of them I noticed that most of them were branch swingers with little respect for you once you have served your purpose (or proven to her that you won't serve her purpose).

So is it possible to find a decent woman? I think it is. But these guys sling the term 'quality' around as if it is something that can be determined over a couple of drinks on a Thursday night.

"You need to go places where QUALITY women can be found!"

"The reason you have bad luck with women is because you date low quality women"

Here's a little gem that goes to prove my point.

IT is no MYTH, IN the 80's I was married to a Quality Woman who demonstrated her "quality" and integrity in myriad ways, and many of those were on occasions which had little to do with me. I saw her act on her beliefs inspite of her fear of disapproval, she always kept her word, she never cheated or flirted, and she was fearlessly honest and forthright with OTHER people.
SHe was an humanities academic who was not willing to be hijacked by faddish theories and post modernist gibberish. SHe was highly intelligent, demanding in her own way of herself and others, and very clear about her moral code and her ethical standards.

The "Myth of the Quality" is its own foolish myth.

This is 20 some odd years ago, he is NO LONGER WITH HER, yet "Have faith! There are quality women out there!"

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

The quality of a woman that you are capable of attracting is limited to the quality of "alpha masculinitity" (or whatever you wanna call it) you are capable of projecting on a consistent, automatic basis.

Would any of you consider the possibility that your quality deteriorated over time, and that is why she left, and instead of looking at your own behaviors, you blamed everything on a general lack of quality among women?

What would happen if after every relationship you could examine it from a truly objective standpoint and evaluate where you failed, and how you can use this new knowledge to improve yourself?

Or do you honestly think that the kind of person you are isn't an issue?

one can learn a lot from a good hard honest look in the mirror.

 

[STR8UP]

The quality of a woman that you are capable of attracting is limited to the quality of "alpha masculinitity" (or whatever you wanna call it) you are capable of projecting on a consistent, automatic basis.

Would any of you consider the possibility that your quality deteriorated over time, and that is why she left, and instead of looking at your own behaviors, you blamed everything on a general lack of quality among women?

What would happen if after every relationship you could examine it from a truly objective standpoint and evaluate where you failed, and how you can use this new knowledge to improve yourself?

Or do you honestly think that the kind of person you are isn't an issue?

one can learn a lot from a good hard honest look in the mirror.

The quality of person YOU are dramatically influences the type of woman you can attract.

But this brings us to another interesting point which ties in with what i believe about women in general- that it isn't always the quality of the man, it can also be his circumstances over which he might have limited control.

I am a firm believer that we make our own fate. However......

If you are a true Man, and you go for what you want in life, there will be setbacks. Most of them will be minor, but every now and then life will throw you a whopper. And it might even have a lot to do with actions that you took in the pursuit of your dreams. But sometimes it is all part of the process. You will fall sometimes. And often when this happens, if you have a woman she won't necessarily stick around to help you pick up the pieces.

Now I'm making generalizations here and I'm sure people can point out instances where this is not true, but generally, if you run into a major setback, even if it is temporary, often times a woman will not stick around to see you through it.

That aside, if you are SINGLE during one of these setbacks, you might as well be wearing skunk juice cologne cause decent women will want NOTHING to do with you. Sometimes life has you so far down that even YOU stop believing that you have potential.

When is the last time you heard of a woman going from a 7 to a 3 overnight when her looks remained the same? Never, right? Well that's what happened to me for the longest period of time over the last couple of years. My looks didn't change a bit, but I was doused in chick repellant. Sure, there was a super flake or three, the coke head, the married chick looking for a fling, and a few odds and ends, but nothing that was worth more than a couple of romps in the sack.

The interesting thing is that this hasn't been my only experience with women though. Imagine that!

I've had what a lot of you would call "quality" women. One in particular that I met at a bad stage of my life. So I KNOW there are decent women out there, but for the few and far between (and the fact that it takes many years for even these women to prove themselves), I refuse to label ANY woman as quality. She won't be deserving of that label until she's been with me for a long time and gone through some of these rough patches to where I can actually SEE her character.

 

[darkstarrr]

Would any of you consider the possibility that your quality deteriorated over time, and that is why she left, and instead of looking at your own behaviors, you blamed everything on a general lack of quality among women?

I've had what a lot of you would call "quality" women. One in particular that I met at a bad stage of my life. She won't be deserving of that label until she's been with me for a long time and gone through some of these rough patches to where I can actually SEE her character.

These are 2 brilliant points to think about because they seem conflicting at first glance because one stresses self-reflection and the other stresses reliability but they in fact compliment each other quite nicely.

Self reflection as TO described in such a clear cut way that we are accountable for who we are and how we act. Reliability as described by Str8up is equally important because every single person in this world at some point in their lives will hit a bad patch, where they need encounter a career change or death in their family, or SOMETHING - ANYTHING that can cause them to appear temporarily weak (maybe weak is not the most accurate word).

In regards to what TO said, I had to take steps to move up the ladder for my career and that required me to work extra hours at work and be on conference calls very early in the morning. I also travelled for work (although I do not anymore) and during that time I was unable to get into the gym as often as I would like. So, I lost some pounds and wasn;t as swollen as I normally was. Does this mean my overall "quality" deteriorated to the point where it was justifiably "fair" that I should look into the mirror and blame myself for her leaving? Fvck no I won't do that. I busted my chops for myself and to improve my life. I stuck with that wacko throughout her manic depressive 6 month state and genuinely tried to help her. I didn't think to myself oh "she is acting like a loser and is unattarctive" just because she was going through a bad patch. Its a shame she didn't have the character to grant me the same. Oh but wait, I don't want to come off as being a martyr who gives to receive (/sarcasm). Too bad she couldn't keep her proverbial d1ck in her pants long enough for my busy schedule to be cut back to normal (and yes I am back in the gym now).

But I suppose everything I just said is null because the premise to it all is that I am not talking about a "quality" woman, am I... (*ponders*)

Is a woman low quality if she hits the road when you are going through a bad patch?

2 very good points guys, thank you!

 

[Jeffst1980]

Nice one, STR8UP. I think we're starting to agree on things.

I absolutely agree that a woman can't be judged as "quality" on an initial meeting, or even after a couple of months of dating. It's easy to believe that your woman is a real catch when things are going well. However, it takes a high quality woman to still remain supportive and respectful when things aren't working out for you.

As for the chick repellant, I would say that having the right attitude matters a lot when life knocks you down. Woman will pick up on how you handle adversity, and if you remain optimistic and resilient (in essence assuring them that your situation is temporary and it's no big deal), they will "forgive" you, so to speak. Just the act of dressing well and radiating positivity will give you the appearance of a successful, high valued male, regardless of your current situation. It is then up to you to remain congruent to this appearance and work on fixing your current situation--easier said than done, I know, but certainly achievable.

I know that about 6 years ago--when I lost my job and got dumped in the same month--I had the chick repellent for some time. Going out and opening sets with that negative mindset just reinforced my poor self image. If you are feeling depressed or suffering from a lack of confidence, your best bet is to avoid chatting up girls altogether. Confidence comes from within. Getting girls does not lead to confidence, it leads to a dependence on them for validation.

A similar thing goes for insecurities--an average or below average looking guy won't have issues in an LTR if he communicates that he is secure with himself and how he looks. It's average looking guy that fixates on and feels ashamed of his imperfections that runs into trouble. For this guy, it doesn't matter if he's got a girl wildly in love with him--he'll still feel subpar.

For the record, I have no recollection what the OP was about.

 

[darkstarrr]

I know that about 6 years ago--when I lost my job and got dumped in the same month--I had the chick repellent for some time. Going out and opening sets with that negative mindset just reinforced my poor self image. If you are feeling depressed or suffering from a lack of confidence, your best bet is to avoid chatting up girls altogether.

So what are we supposed to do if we are in LTRs and something happens in our lives? Are we supposed to act as best we can like it does not phase us even if it does? Does being in a LTR mean that we must be afraid to turn to our significant other for moral support etc because of the possibility that they will fall out of attraction for us?

Thoughts please!

 

[Mr. Me]

This is 20 some odd years ago, he is NO LONGER WITH HER, yet "Have faith! There are quality women out there!"

You're assuming that their demise was due to her not being a quality woman, when perhaps it was due to Jophil not doing right by her. Like taiyuu_otoko pointed out:

"Would any of you consider the possibility that your quality deteriorated over time, and that is why she left, and instead of looking at your own behaviors, you blamed everything on a general lack of quality among women?"

 

[DavenJuan]

So what are we supposed to do if we are in LTRs and something happens in our lives? Are we supposed to act as best we can like it does not phase us even if it does? Does being in a LTR mean that we must be afraid to turn to our significant other for moral support etc because of the possibility that they will fall out of attraction for us?

Thoughts please!

IMO some women, "quality women" as somes definition describes, may FIND IT ATTRACTIVE that you are capable of placing trust in her enough to confined in her for moral support.

whats the point of being in any LTR if you are required to "hide" yourself from sharing with your partner?

complacency and portraying numerous acts of weakness is more of a reason for the relationship to take a turn then simply looking for support.

what are we supposed to do if we are in LTRs and something happens in our lives?

isnt this the times when we are able to identify the relationships that HAVE strong foundation vs not?

this is when moral support shouldnt be ASKED for, but EXPECTED. if your gf was going through any type of "something" that could possibly put her in a place of negativity, wouldnt you.. better yet SHOULDNT you be there to help?

 

[jophil28]

This is 20 some odd years ago, he is NO LONGER WITH HER, yet "Have faith! There are quality women out there!"

I would still be with her if I had the choice, but breast cancer had other plans for her.
SHe died in 1991.

 

[S.S.N. 318]

Quality people are real, but you won't believe they are if you've never met them or spent time with them. I'm guessing a lot of the people who complain about women on this board may very well live in a bad area and just don't realize that they do because they have never seen anything else.

If you do look around yourself and find a human waste dump, start planing your escape.

Fight for your future.

..and thats why im goin back to the A.T.L. (Atlanta)..On the real!!

And that's how the women be actin in Monroe. The think they all that but the attitudes is horrible and sho no repect at all...on the real...No Joke!!

But im still getting out of Monroe and becoming a rap legend...or Be on T.V. or hosting on the Radio and Have my own arcade/game room palace!!!

Real Talk....

 

[STR8UP]

I would still be with her if I had the choice, but breast cancer had other plans for her.
SHe died in 1991.

And to think, when I was typing this the thought did cross my mind at what an ass hole I would feel like if this is what had happened.

I'm officially an ass hole, I apologize.