article: Why Are Women So Negative About the "Pickup Artist" Community?

[MatureDJ]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/20...ative_about_the_pickup_artist_community_.html

Answer by Gayle Laakmann McDowell, author of Cracking the Coding Interview and The Google Résumé:

I became negative about it because of what I saw it do to guys.

When I first learned about it, I was mostly just intrigued. I ended up learning a bunch about it. I read The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists (which I still think is a really interesting book) and ended up meeting a lot of people who were in the pick-up artist community (not a goal—it just happened).

I even ended up helping out with one of their weekend seminars, to be a "female test dummy," essentially. Far from the stereotype of sleazy guys who want one-night stands, 24 of the 25 guys in the class were just awkward, nerdy guys who just wanted a girlfriend (the 25th wanted to bring home a girl for a threesome with his girlfriend). But that's not the instruction of these classes. The classes are about getting laid, not getting a girlfriend.

This was my first big hint that something was wrong.
There was a mismatch. They were taking guys who wanted girlfriends and teaching them how to pick up girls in bars. How many relationships do you know of that started in bars? Do you know any? If you want a girlfriend, go sign up for an online dating site. Start dating! Statistically speaking, bars don't work.

And then there was the instruction itself.
The problem is that what works for one person doesn't work for everyone—not all guys, and not on all girls. They were telling guys things like:

Touch a girl when she talks to you.
Criticize a girl (sorry, I mean "neg").
When a girl seems uninterested, she's just playing games.
Don't talk about "real" topics, like education and your job. They're too "boring."
No woman is out of your league.

The problem here is that touching can be flirty, but it can also be really creepy when the touching isn't natural. And when you're telling an awkward, nerdy guy who has no idea how to flirt "OK, now, touch a girl here," it's almost always creepy. (Personally, I don't like random guys at bars touching me. It makes me really uncomfortable.)

And then you're telling the guy to criticize the girl, which is just plain mean.

And then, when the girl isn't interested, the guy is now being told, "Oh, she's just trying to play games with you." He doesn't back off. Eww.

And all of this is ridiculous because sometimes, the girl is out of your league or at least just isn't interested. I'm 5-foot-9, and I'm just not going to go home with a guy who is 5-foot-3, goes by the nickname "Snake" (seriously?!?), and is overweight, and pimply, and won't just answer a direct question about what he does for a living. But he keeps pursuing because, well, "I'm just playing games with him." I'm trying to see if he passes some test, apparently.

These are the sort of repeated interactions I had with guys in the PUA community, and why I got turned against it. Once upon a time, this guy might have been a perfectly normal but nerdy guy, who could have dated online, met someone nice, got married, and been perfectly happy.

PUA instruction turns awkward, nerdy guys who just want a girlfriend into creepy guys who harass and insult women. And that's not OK!

PUA instruction teaches guys these mechanical ways of interacting with women that don't really work and fails to recognize that every woman is different. Some women just won't go home with you. Sorry. Maybe she's out of your league. Or maybe she's just not interested in you. Or maybe she just doesn't go home with random dudes from bars.

The words coming out of a woman's mouth? It's not all a game. You can have actual conversations with us. When I say "What do you do for a living?" it's because I actually care. Because I'm looking for someone to build a relationship with, and someone with no career goals is not a good match for me. Answer the question.

Conversation is not all a giant game. When I'm not interested, it's because I'm not interested. Not because I'm putting some sort of girl test in front of you.

So that's why I'm against it. Because, beyond just giving men the courage to approach women, the instruction is harmful to the guys.

Some of my friends who were involved in the community got out of it OK, but they were probably more normally adjusted to start with. Another friend, well, he got his taste of one night stands and "can't understand the point of girlfriend." And other guys I've met are so uncomfortable to be around that, well, we never really became friends.

 

[Findog]

This was my first big hint that something was wrong.
There was a mismatch. They were taking guys who wanted girlfriends and teaching them how to pick up girls in bars. How many relationships do you know of that started in bars? Do you know any? If you want a girlfriend, go sign up for an online dating site. Start dating! Statistically speaking, bars don't work.

Quite a few relationships start in bars. What is she talking about? I'd be willing to bet as many or more relationships start in bars than through online dating. Aside from approaching strangers, get-togethers in bars usually lead to people meeting others in their extended social circle.

And then there was the instruction itself.
The problem is that what works for one person doesn't work for everyone—not all guys, and not on all girls. They were telling guys things like:

Touch a girl when she talks to you.
Criticize a girl (sorry, I mean "neg").
When a girl seems uninterested, she's just playing games.
Don't talk about "real" topics, like education and your job. They're too "boring."
No woman is out of your league.

PUA doesn't teach guys that they can have any woman. PUA doesn't tell guys to never reveal their vocation or education. It tells guys that talking about stuff like their job and their degree status right off the bat leads nowhere, because it's the same boring conversations that the girl has had umpteen times before. After you've established chemistry and rapport and you know the girl is in to you, then that kind of information will come out naturally.

The problem here is that touching can be flirty, but it can also be really creepy when the touching isn't natural. And when you're telling an awkward, nerdy guy who has no idea how to flirt "OK, now, touch a girl here," it's almost always creepy. (Personally, I don't like random guys at bars touching me. It makes me really uncomfortable.)

Then the problem is not what PUA is teaching these guys, but the clumsy and awkward way in which they try to apply it.

And then you're telling the guy to criticize the girl, which is just plain mean.

Negging is not insulting a girl. Again, the problem is not what PUA is teaching these guys, but the clumsy and awkward way in which they try to apply it. Flat-out insulting a girl will not get you laid. Teasing her in a good-natured way like you would your little sister and busting her balls a little bit will.

And then, when the girl isn't interested, the guy is now being told, "Oh, she's just trying to play games with you." He doesn't back off. Eww.

PUA never teaches a guy that he can have any woman or that low interest is really just playing hard to get.

And all of this is ridiculous because sometimes, the girl is out of your league or at least just isn't interested.

So you're too good for some guys. I think I'll pass on somebody with a princess entitlement complex.

These are the sort of repeated interactions I had with guys in the PUA community, and why I got turned against it. Once upon a time, this guy might have been a perfectly normal but nerdy guy, who could have dated online, met someone nice, got married, and been perfectly happy.

He's turned to PUA instruction precisely because it is exceedingly hard to meet someone nice, get married and be perfectly happy. He's actually turned to PUA precisely because he wants to either up his notch count and be a player.... or meet someone nice, get married, and be perfectly happy. PUA teaches Game. Game is then applied towards acquiring a soft harem of wifing/girlfriending someone up.

PUA instruction turns awkward, nerdy guys who just want a girlfriend into creepy guys who harass and insult women. And that's not OK!

PUA teaches game to awkward, nerdy guys in an attempt for them to achieve the success with women that they want, be it acquiring a soft harem or getting a wife/girlfriend. Some men do not learn or apply these lessons well and that is not OK with you. The problem again is how some men are applying it, not the PUA material itself.

PUA instruction teaches guys these mechanical ways of interacting with women that don't really work and fails to recognize that every woman is different. Some women just won't go home with you. Sorry. Maybe she's out of your league. Or maybe she's just not interested in you. Or maybe she just doesn't go home with random dudes from bars.

Uh no, PUA teaches men that Game is a necessary skillset in order to have any success with women at all today in the modern dating market. PUA does not teach men that mechanical routines will work with all women if executed skillfully enough.

The words coming out of a woman's mouth? It's not all a game. You can have actual conversations with us. When I say "What do you do for a living?" it's because I actually care. Because I'm looking for someone to build a relationship with, and someone with no career goals is not a good match for me. Answer the question.

PUA material is not about hypnosis routines, it's about teaching guys how to converse with women in a way that builds attraction. Some guys will be good at it, some guys will be terrible. Just as you say not all women are not the same, neither are guys.

 

[Burroughs]

Answer by Gayle Laakmann McDowell... are typically nutbusting feminists :trouble:

 

[The Gambler]

I'm not going to spend time picking the article apart (since Findog already did it very well). But to be honest, I agree with her in many ways... And frankly, that's why I'm HERE on the web's best Don Juan site, as opposed to a PUA site. I think the guys she's referring to would also benefit more from this site than a Pickup Artist seminar. Those students probably weren't aware of the difference.

The Gambler

 

[SSBS]

They are negative because they see it as deceptive.

Just like make-up, padded bras, hair color, etc.

 

[Warrior74]

The words coming out of a woman's mouth? It's not all a game.

Ah. But so much of it is, one would assume that all of it is!

 

[Stagger Lee]

PUA doesn't fix guys' problems that are unattractive to women, she's right about that. Heck, a lot of it might even work against guys who have some success.

But her main mistake was to suggest that these guys could just get a GF that would be acceptable otherwise. She said, "they could just go online and get a GF" hahaha.

What she did was project the reality of the unattractive, uncool girl on to the experience of the unattractive, uncool guy. The unattractive, uncool girl can still get BFs and sex, where as the guy can't or can't get much of anything no matter how hard he tries.

No, she ignored the real problem and causation which is that women are hypergamy and will always try to date out of their league even if that means mostly being a pump and dump or a spinning plate to a guy that has several women. If women truely wanted relationships with guys who would be willing to have relationships with them, then the whole problem would be solved.

PUA didn't cause these guys to be more undesirable. These men being undesirable to women caused PUA.

(Of course that is accepting her premise that most the guys want any ol' GF. Most guys would also like to fvck lots of hot girls of course, but would enter a relationship with a hot girl).

 

[Findog]

PUA doesn't fix guys' problems that are unattractive to women, she's right about that. Heck, a lot of it might even work against guys who have some success.

But her main mistake was to suggest that these guys could just get a GF that would be acceptable otherwise. She said, "they could just go online and get a GF" hahaha.

What she did was project the reality of the unattractive, uncool girl on to the experience of the unattractive, uncool guy. The unattractive, uncool girl can still get BFs and sex, where as the guy can't or can't get much of anything no matter how hard he tries.

No, she ignored the real problem and causation which is that women are hypergamy and will always try to date out of their league even if that means mostly being a pump and dump or a spinning plate to a guy that has several women. If women truely wanted relationships with guys who would be willing to have relationships with them, then the whole problem would be solved.

PUA didn't cause these guys to be more undesirable. These men being undesirable to women caused PUA.

(Of course that is accepting her premise that most the guys want any ol' GF. Most guys would also like to fvck lots of hot girls of course, but would enter a relationship with a hot girl).

Most guys in their twenties prefer to play the field and up their notch counts. When they get into their thirties the majority of guys start to become more relationship-oriented.

Female entitlement + AFC pedestalizing has created a problem where women want to date not just out of their league but way out of their league. Hypergamy says women want a guy who is better in status than them or who they can in some way look up to. They don't want an equal. I think what's happened is that now women want a guy who is way above instead of slightly ahead of them. They'd rather share and hope that one day they can snag an uber-Alpha instead of having a greater beta all to themselves. Thirty years ago you didn't have PUA boot camps and the concept of AFC hadn't come into existence because if you were a decent guy you could get a girl without too much trouble. Being Alpha has always been the optimum strategy but being a greater beta was an efficient enough strategy for getting a mate. That's not the case anymore.

 

[Mike32ct]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/20...ative_about_the_pickup_artist_community_.html

Answer by Gayle Laakmann McDowell, author of Cracking the Coding Interview and The Google Résumé:

I became negative about it because of what I saw it do to guys.

When I first learned about it, I was mostly just intrigued. I ended up learning a bunch about it. I read The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists (which I still think is a really interesting book) and ended up meeting a lot of people who were in the pick-up artist community (not a goal—it just happened).

The classes are about getting laid, not getting a girlfriend.

True. But even if you want a relationship, she still has to want to b*ng you. If she doesn't want to have sex with you, forget about a relationship.

This was my first big hint that something was wrong.
There was a mismatch. They were taking guys who wanted girlfriends and teaching them how to pick up girls in bars. How many relationships do you know of that started in bars? Do you know any? If you want a girlfriend, go sign up for an online dating site. Start dating! Statistically speaking, bars don't work.

I agree that bars aren't OPTIMAL for finding a girlfriend. But I don't think online is a sliver bullet either. Today, it's almost as difficult if not worse than bars.

And then there was the instruction itself.
The problem is that what works for one person doesn't work for everyone—not all guys, and not on all girls.

I agree with this. Some line that a tall hot guy uses successfully will probably fail miserably if a less attractive guy uses it. Remember, "It's not what you say. It's WHO SAYS IT."

They were telling guys things like:

Touch a girl when she talks to you.

It's ok in moderation. Maybe touch her forearm while making a point. Don't get too grabby early on.

Criticize a girl (sorry, I mean "neg").

Some guys swear by this, but it's not my thing.

When a girl seems uninterested, she's just playing games.

No, she's just not interested.

Don't talk about "real" topics, like education and your job. They're too "boring."

They are boring topics, unless you meet a chick from online from a pay site. Then she will grill you about your job all night long.

No woman is out of your league.

I don't have an position on this one. All I can say is that she is either interested or she isn't. The "league" sh*t is beside the point.

The problem here is that touching can be flirty, but it can also be really creepy when the touching isn't natural. And when you're telling an awkward, nerdy guy who has no idea how to flirt "OK, now, touch a girl here," it's almost always creepy. (Personally, I don't like random guys at bars touching me. It makes me really uncomfortable.)

There is some truth to this. A shy nervous guy will procrastinate all night and then try touching her with a shaking hand later on. That is creepy.

Then there is a the looks issue associated with the term "creepy", but I won't go there.

And then you're telling the guy to criticize the girl, which is just plain mean.

It's mean if you aren't her type. If you are her type, it's flirting.

And then, when the girl isn't interested, the guy is now being told, "Oh, she's just trying to play games with you." He doesn't back off. Eww

Good point. If she isn't interested, staying there and harrassing her isn't really gonna help.

And all of this is ridiculous because sometimes, the girl is out of your league or at least just isn't interested.


Same friggin' thing.

1. She considers herself "out of your league."
2. She is not interested in you.

Is there a difference? Nope. If she's interested, she considers you in her league. If she isn't interested, you aren't in her league. The league sh*t is moot. Just focus on interested vs. not interested.

I'm 5-foot-9, and I'm just not going to go home with a guy who is 5-foot-3, goes by the nickname "Snake" (seriously?!?), and is overweight, and pimply, and won't just answer a direct question about what he does for a living. But he keeps pursuing because, well, "I'm just playing games with him." I'm trying to see if he passes some test, apparently.


She would go home with a 6'3" guy name Snake lol.

I don't believe in the "never give a direct answer" stuff. I mean don't be an open book, but being evasive all night is silly.

I don't believe in tests. There is interested vs. not interested.

These are the sort of repeated interactions I had with guys in the PUA community, and why I got turned against it. Once upon a time, this guy might have been a perfectly normal but nerdy guy, who could have dated online, met someone nice, got married, and been perfectly happy.


Once upon on time, you could find a relationship online. Good luck with that now. All methods of meeting women eventually become hopeless sausage fests. It's like a universal law.

PUA instruction turns awkward, nerdy guys who just want a girlfriend into creepy guys who harass and insult women. And that's not OK!

This can happen sometimes.

PUA instruction teaches guys these mechanical ways of interacting with women that don't really work and fails to recognize that every woman is different.

There is no silver bullet in this game. Although PUAs try hard to find methods to work on most 21 to 28 yo AWs.

Some women just won't go home with you. Sorry. Maybe she's out of your league. Or maybe she's just not interested in you.

Somebody please tell me what the difference is.


Or maybe she just doesn't go home with random dudes from bars.

She texts some guy from her social circle and/or her ex and bangs him later. She's not Miss Innocent, despite priding herself on not going home with random dudes from bars.

Besides, you don't have to go home with him. You could just bl*w him in the car behind the club. That would be fine. :crackup:

The words coming out of a woman's mouth? It's not all a game.

It seems like it.

You can have actual conversations with us.

Where? Find me a place where I can just pull up a chair and talk with a chick. That used to be a bar, but is now a sausage fest for reasons discussed above.

When I say "What do you do for a living?" it's because I actually care.


She's counting your $$$.

Because I'm looking for someone to build a relationship with, and someone with no career goals is not a good match for me. Answer the question.

I really want that corner office lol.

Conversation is not all a giant game. When I'm not interested, it's because I'm not interested. Not because I'm putting some sort of girl test in front of you.

True.

So that's why I'm against it. Because, beyond just giving men the courage to approach women, the instruction is harmful to the guys.

I'll agree that the primary benefit is getting guys to approach.

Some of my friends who were involved in the community got out of it OK, but they were probably more normally adjusted to start with. Another friend, well, he got his taste of one night stands and "can't understand the point of girlfriend." And other guys I've met are so uncomfortable to be around that, well, we never really became friends.

They should have just gone online lol.

 

[flashpoint]

hating on women seems almost like a reflex here. even when they do have a point. it is her experience and i dont think she exaggerates anything. there are alot of douchbags out there that teach being a master of douchbagery instead of becoming a man that naturally attracts women.

she might be a bit naive about the alternatives but she definitely is right that anyone who promises a quick fix for a bigger problem is either a liar or not qualified. and that the guys who are already in a difficult spot might get completely messed up with the social engineering stuff.

 

[BeDJ]

she might be a bit naive about the alternatives but she definitely is right that anyone who promises a quick fix for a bigger problem is either a liar or not qualified. and that the guys who are already in a difficult spot might get completely messed up with the social engineering stuff.

^ Pretty much sums up most males in our society. Google "How to get women" you will get 3+ Billion results. 99% of which will tell you to do what she is b!tching about in the article. What most of these guys don't realize is that they aren't special or different, they are running the same game as the guy next to them.

I went out with an old friend who claims to have his game packed. I approached a group of women and he comes in and introduces himself. Typical typical typical stuff that I've seen guys pull that maybe have worked when I was in high school. I excused myself to the bathroom but just sat at the bar to watch him crash and burn. Thanks to the internet any dumbass in the world can type up 4 measly words and "learn the game."

I can partially agree with the author of the article. With our age and the easy access of information, you will not get very far with the PUA mentality. Every chick has been through this process before. Admittedly, I have had success with PUA tactics, but that was back in 2003-ish. Times have changed with information exchange, women are pretty familiar with PUA theory because most men use it.

When I first came here, I though it was a PUA site. I was about 16 and innocent. I read the FR and applied it, in such a way, it was more of a PUA tactic. Forgot about this site for YEARS. After a LTR went south a year ago, and not having success with a date. i came back earlier this year in hopes of finding PUA tactics.

I found the complete opposite - A way to live life. I have read Pook and AD's post in the past, but never understood it. Maybe I did not have any relationship experience or was too young mentally. It all made sense! Although I went through a women hating stage, I'm happily recovering from it. It has helped me build much character, social life and became 10x the man I was a year ago.

Fvck PUA sh!t - take the red pill

 

[Who Dares Win]

Game no longer grant any significant advantage, the only way to be successful with women is being successful globally.

Your look and your abilities are the only tool, the same social skills that are the arm of your value in the business world are the arm of your value in the dating market.

Game is like training an army, yet if the army is big enough it would win even with crappy tacticts the same way a super elitè 100 man group cannot win a war alone.

And regarding this woman, all her doctrine would go down to the toiled if the man in front of her looked like a model, was rich and socially skilled, he would be granted a blank check
in terms of bullsh1t or misbehaviour and no matter how assh0lish he would be, there would be still time to cash any coin.

 

[zekko]

Why are girls negative about the PUA community? Why are guys negative about "The Rules" and other such material that teaches women how to play games and inflate their own value? It's pretty much the same thing, except that more guys are in need of help due to the nature of the male "pursuer" role in dating.

The article itself is obviously very flawed, but others have covered that well.

 

[Nutz]

This is pretty typical. She's complaining about the training wheels and not looking at the holistic self-improvement that the training wheels are designed to effect. For example, telling guys how to touch, who aren't accustomed to when or how to touch, is guaranteed to make a ton of guys weird because they'll be uncalibrated. That's fine, it's part of the process. Through trial and error they'll figure it out and at the end of the process they'll have it down.

It can take months, sometimes years, to go through this process, and the guys will be constantly learning, refining, and hopefully IMPROVING along the way. That's what it's all about, taking the skills they teach and integrated them into our lives. With enough practice the teachings become a natural part of us and thus we become the best version of ourselves. Skilling up body language, how to escalate, communication skills and expressiveness, are all excellent goals for either gender.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear All,
I really don't think this Lady is rabid or even extreme....She seems quite measured and reasonable in her attack on a target group,that are just not like you guys!....The desperates who go to these group therapy sessions,really are pathetic,just grist for the mill to the cynical operators!...I am helping a friend of one of my Plates to find a reasonable partner on the Net...She rejects my advice her first choice based on "potential reliability" was an IT nurd...he turned up in a stained checked shirt and old denim jeans,he was overweight and fat....talked about his Comic collection...Fer Cris'sake...second one was an ex-Soldier,she picked him on the rebound from the first on his Manly qualities!...well this guy,gave her the ride of her life in his hotted up 4WD,swore and cursed at every other driver on the road,frightened the living Bejesus out of her,entertained her to big eats,and it seems mainly talked about his Rhodesian Ridgeback hunting Dog,when they went back to her place he made a grab for her boobs,about as much dating finesse as Jack the Bluddy Ripper!...She was terrified!...this is a shy,cultured and intellectual,Chinese Girl,She has lots of smarts,but no idea about our culture...Clint Eastwood,where are you when you are needed!

 

[The Duke]

This woman can say all she wants, but pua tactics work. It puts a little power back in the hands of men who can use it effectively.

IF women wouldn't play the games they do we wouldn't need the weapons pua teaches to disarm them.

When women start acting like they should and step down from their princess pedestals then I'll drop the pua game. Until then keep b1tching about some body beating you at your own game.

 

[Stagger Lee]

The real problem with what she said was her mentality like most women, that none of these guys were good enough to approach her or women all together. She said more than once I believe that she was out of their league and insinuated most girls they approach would be out of their league.

Then she projected onto the guys what women want or think or say they want-a relationship vs being able to attract multiple girls for sex. Even if you accept the relationship premise, the league thing is problematic. For example, almost every girl who has acceptable looks for a guy could think she is out of his league.

Then in an let them eat cake suggestion, she suggests these guys could find one woman for a relationship if they turned to online dating. Basically, go away, don't approach girls like me who are out of your league, but you'll be OK.

Basically it was just a female justifying female hypergamy and sugar coating it.

 

[Mike32ct]

Stagger is spot on. She is suggesting online as some sort of consolation prize. What is being implied is that online women are more desperate and/or can get to know your personality via emails and possibly give you a chance that way since your looks suck. In other words, most guys aren't worthy of meeting women in person.

I'm not saying I agree with that, but that is what she is getting at.

 

[Findog]

Stagger is spot on. She is suggesting online as some sort of consolation prize. What is being implied is that online women are more desperate and/or can get to know your personality via emails and possibly give you a chance that way since your looks suck. In other words, most guys aren't worthy of meeting women in person.

I'm not saying I agree with that, but that is what she is getting at.

Is it any wonder why PUA even exists when most women have this kind of entitlement complex? I agree that if you're extremely overweight with greasy hair/acne and your wardrobe comes from the discount bin at Wal-Mart that most women are just not going to be interested. But ask any guy with any experience at all with women right now and they can tell you that frequently you will be dismissed and rejected for the most arbitrary of reasons.

Roosh had a great post about it, and he's absolutely right about this:

Thirty years ago, your mother would have given vague answers when describing why she became attracted to your father. He would then have given even vaguer answers when describing how he got your mom. They would speak through rosy and determinist glasses about how their love was a foregone conclusion or “meant to be.”

If your mother didn’t get initial attention from your father, she would try again using various social or professional connections to get on his radar. If he revealed a strange habit on the first date, she would consult with her hens to figure out how to change it. If his income was low, she would encourage him to take on extra training that would ensure a more stable future.

Today, your mother would not have married your father. If he hesitated to make a move, she would have had dozens of other guys knocking on her door. If he showed a weird quirk on the first date, she would call him creepy to her friends and not respond to his text messages. If he accidentally called her with his jeans, she would think he’s a needy loser. If he was broke with no immediate sign of earning dough, she would indulge in affections from wealthier men on the side.

At the absolute minimum, today’s man must not make game mistakes. He doesn’t have to possess the tightest conversation or weasel game, but he must know what turns on woman. He doesn’t have to be alpha, but he can’t show beta traits. He doesn’t need the best text messaging game, but he can’t reply faster than she does. Denialists can reminisce about the past all they want, but to be sexually successful in today’s world, you need to know more psychology than Freud did in his time and at least a basic understanding of game theory.

Game is teaching guys how to hold a woman's attention. It's teaching guys not to pedestal women. How it's applied is often bad for both sides, but if it weren't necessary, it wouldn't exist.

You didn't have PUA boot camps or concepts like AFC 30-40 years ago. So what has changed?

 

[The Gambler]

You didn't have PUA boot camps or concepts like AFC 30-40 years ago. So what has changed?

The AFC concept is as old as man itself... that's my opinion anyway.

But the BIG thing that has changed is technology, specifically the way we communicate. Some of us are still old enough to remember the days when you had to call a girl's HOUSE if you wanted to speak with her. You would pray that her dad wouldn't answer the phone. There was no way to text back then.

So what's the point here?

One single, individual, lone, solitary dude can spam how many women on POF in one day? How many Facebook pages can he troll and comment on in one day? How many women can he text in one day, even if just to say "U a fine b*tch!"

One guy can raise the (self-perceived) value of dozens of women in a single day. ONE GUY. Now is this guy concerned with the social consequences of what he's doing? Probably not. Regardless, therein lies your simple answer. I am saying absolutely nothing that hasn't been discussed here many times, but this is as good a time as any to say it again.

The guy who contacts dozens of women a day is playing a numbers game. Even if he is decent looking, has confidence and a decent career, the majority of his contacts will result in a rejection.

Now...

What about the guy who isn't very good looking, lacks confidence and hasn't settled yet on a career. Because of his lack of confidence, he only approaches one or two women a month... And when he does, he is nervous and uptight. He might as well grab a musket and charge head-first into a panzer battalion -- he'd have just as much luck with the result. His only hope for success with such a small amount of exposure (and low-quality exposure at that) would be to choose his targets VERY wisely, and maybe have fortune smile on him that day.

Women these days often have trouble telling the difference between guys who are spamming versus guys who are INTERESTED. This inflates their market value and winds up being a huge problem for both men and women in the end!

I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong, by the way. Contact the opposite sex the way you see fit. But when the typical HB6 is getting ten or more contacts every day, the guy who doesn't know how to sell himself is gonna be in trouble.

The Gambler