Another piece of the puzzle ?

[jophil28]

There has been much written here, and in the pulp literature about women's attraction and submission to 'bad boys' vs their ultimate exploitation of 'nice guys'.
Now I am not a fan of most conventional social science theories because they are essentially speculation posing as fact , however I am going to offer one of my own for scrutiny...and comment. Flame away if you wish.

Firstly a little background. Almost 20 years ago I quit drinking.

One day, two years later, an old timer in AA said to me," Sobriety can wreck a marriage "... Huh !
Here I was all set to do field service to others who were still suffering from alcoholism and now this older, and much more experienced guy, was telling me this !
I was of the belief that sobriety and recovery would almost automatically repair and enhance every marriage which had been damaged. Apparently not !

He went on to explain , " Women who marry alcoholics are frequently controlling, self righteous and haughty, superior types. We see them over and over again trying to control him while he tries to control his drinking. There are several professions which seem to seek out alcoholic or drug affected men as husbands. School teachers, social workers and nurses commonly 'find themselves' married to alcoholics. These women expect to control their marriages and their families. Their belief in their superiority and their self importance leads them to endlessly blame him for all their problems. Having an alcoholic husband provides her with a credible method, and endless opportunities of sliding all the blame for every problem over to him. After all, every alcoholic causes problems right ? So she can whine and complain about him ad infinitum to her friends and family, and she will be offered sympathy and be believed without question, and she is the "good one".
She never has to 'own' her own shortcomings...having an alcoholic (and a 'bad boy' to boot ) provides her with a "bad shyte receptacle" for when the inevitable problems arise, as they do in every marriage. The finger of blame will always be pointed at him and she never has to be "at fault". Her fantasy about herself remains intact.

He then told me that is is common for many such women to seek a divorce when their husbands recover from alcoholism and attempt to assert their role as family leader .
----
AFCs make a strong point of always "behaving" themselves in their relationships in the hope that their flawless behavior will impress her and create attraction. The problem here is that most women (and self righteous women in particular ) need someone to blame for problems and for someone else to "own" the shyte when it inevitably happens.
So what is such a woman to do if she is dating an AFC "perfect gentleman" ?
WHat happens when a significant problem arises between them?
A dilemma !

In her mind , she is not to blame because she cannot tolerate that belief for a millisecond, and he is so "perfect" that he is unlikely to be at fault, so who and what created the problem ? The answer for her is to lose interest in him and the relationship and to breakup and convince herself that there was no spark, no chemistry.

However,. had she been dating a bad boy/ drinker, she would have had a ready made scapegoat to hold accountable .

How many of you have ever heard a woman privately criticise her bad boy B/f and moan about his poor behavior behind his back, but then fawn all over him the next time they are seen together.

So i am suggesting that perhaps part of her attraction to the bad boy arises from her need to disown her own problematic behavior and attribute all problems to him, and his character defects.

Comments?

 

[pLaYtHiNg]

I think the situation with a controlling woman leaving her recovering alcoholic husband is more about her co-dependency.... When he is well she has no purpose in his life anymore.

A lot of people, men and women, have a hard time taking ownership of their faults and contributions to issues and problems. I have met a fair amount of men who would do the same thing to their girlfriends. One guy I knew actually said he wouldn't have cheated on his girlfriend if she hadn't made it so easy for him... his way of shifting the blame.

It takes two to be unwell, and two to be well together.

 

[decades]

women have said to me that they want a guy who has "issues" but fixable ones. They want someone with potential, rough around the edges. but someone who can be shaped and molded over time into the perfect mate. they need a project. But while he is being fixed, he does represent a kind of target for blame. best of all worlds?

 

[Trader]

----
AFCs make a strong point of always "behaving" themselves in their relationships in the hope that their flawless behavior will impress her and create attraction. The problem here is that most women (and self righteous women in particular ) need someone to blame for problems and for someone else to "own" the shyte when it inevitably happens.
So what is such a woman to do if she is dating an AFC "perfect gentleman" ?
WHat happens when a significant problem arises between them?
A dilemma !

In her mind , she is not to blame because she cannot tolerate that belief for a millisecond, and he is so "perfect" that he is unlikely to be at fault, so who and what created the problem ? The answer for her is to lose interest in him and the relationship and to breakup and convince herself that there was no spark, no chemistry.

However,. had she been dating a bad boy/ drinker, she would have had a ready made scapegoat to hold accountable .

How many of you have ever heard a woman privately criticise her bad boy B/f and moan about his poor behavior behind his back, but then fawn all over him the next time they are seen together.

So i am suggesting that perhaps part of her attraction to the bad boy arises from her need to disown her own problematic behavior and attribute all problems to him, and his character defects.

Comments?

Your logic goes something like this: Girls are attracted to alcoholics and bad boys and since bad boys and alcoholics are in the same *grouping* (both cannot be controlled by girls) then what applies to the alcoholic (that girls are attracted to the alcoholic because they can blame him) also extends to the bad boy (girls are attracted to the bad boy because they can blame him)

The key is that the bad boy and alcoholic should NOT be lumped together in this analysis.

Yes, I see what you are saying - both the bad boy and alcoholic cannot be controlled by the girl. But I would argue that the girl sees the bad boy and alcoholic as 2 very different creatures. The bad boy cannot be controlled because he does whatever he wants to do - this is SEXY. The alcoholic cannot be controlled by the girl because no one can control him, not even himself - he has no self-control to do what he wants to do - he is controlled, by the alcohol. Lack of self-control is univerally considered NOT sexy in the eyes of girls.

I agree with your analysis that girls are attracted to the alcoholic so that they can blame him (and ONLY the girls with self-pity and blaming tendencies developed to the nth degree are attracted to the alcoholic) but I say that EVERY girl is attracted to the bad boy because every girl has a need for excitement and drama (which comes from the bad boy doing what he wants to do - which leads to fun and drama filled arguments) and that the bad boy is able to *create his own world* for the girl to enter into (credit to Pook for that term).

 

[Luthor Rex]

" Women who marry alcoholics are frequently controlling, self righteous and haughty, superior types. We see them over and over again trying to control him while he tries to control his drinking. There are several professions which seem to seek out alcoholic or drug affected men as husbands. School teachers, social workers and nurses commonly 'find themselves' married to alcoholics. These women expect to control their marriages and their families. Their belief in their superiority and their self importance leads them to endlessly blame him for all their problems. Having an alcoholic husband provides her with a credible method, and endless opportunities of sliding all the blame for every problem over to him. After all, every alcoholic causes problems right ? So she can whine and complain about him ad infinitum to her friends and family, and she will be offered sympathy and be believed without question, and she is the "good one".
She never has to 'own' her own shortcomings...having an alcoholic (and a 'bad boy' to boot ) provides her with a "bad shyte receptacle" for when the inevitable problems arise, as they do in every marriage. The finger of blame will always be pointed at him and she never has to be "at fault". Her fantasy about herself remains intact.

Fvcking WOW!

That AA guy is brilliant. I know two guys who have problems with alcohol and this fits the bill for both of their women.

Now I really have to wonder if a general desire for a "bad boy" (even without substance abuse) is a similar desire to find a man they can control. A man to control and a man to lay the blame for all your problems on. It's like these women are psychic vampires.

It makes a lot of sense and it also makes sense why women who want these kinds of men will reject both "nice guys" and DJ's -- the nice guy doesn't have anything that most people would think is "wrong" with him, so the woman can't blame him for her problems, and the DJ just flat out won't be controlled.

Goddamn, I do believe this is a fine post.

 

[WaterTiger]

He went on to explain , " Women who marry alcoholics are frequently controlling, self righteous and haughty, superior types. We see them over and over again trying to control him while he tries to control his drinking. ......These women expect to control their marriages and their families. Their belief in their superiority and their self importance leads them to endlessly blame him for all their problems.....So I am suggesting that perhaps part of her attraction to the bad boy arises from her need to disown her own problematic behavior and attribute all problems to him, and his character defects.

Comments?

Reminds me of the old Bible quote "First pull the mote out of your own eye before you try to pull the mote out of your brother's eye."

There are women out there who love to try to fix the "Broken Guy", the drunk, the drug addict, the BPD and so on.

Remember Wyldfire? She was a "Broken Guy Fixer" From drug addicts to incarcerated to suicidal, she was in love with them all and wanted to "fix" them. The only way she had any self worth was to find some one more screwed up than she was and try to make them a contributing member of society.

But could she hold down a relationship with a guy who wasn't deeply flawed? I don't think so!

Great post Jophil!

 

[edger]

I'm confused. Aren't women supposed to be creeped out/turned off by guys who are suicidal, Bi-Polar, and just guys in general who have "mental" issues. This is what I always thought, yet the oppposite is being stated in this thread.

Also, the guy who is an "alchy"(alcoholic), in many of the cases, doesn't his alcohol dependency stem from the fact that he's not happy with his life because his life sucks and is lame. I always thought the status quo was that women run from guys like that.

I'm badly confused on this one, lol.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

While I might agree with your premise, an alcoholic that suddenly becomes a non-drinker "ruins" a marriage, I don't think the reason is as simple as you suggest. There could be several other contributing reasons, as a marriage which includes one of the participants undergoing a major lifestyle shift can have a very complex dynamic. For example,


Frequently when alcoholics give up the booze, they seldom fix the underlying reason which caused them to drink. Whatever behavior they pick up to satisfy the deeper imbalance might be the cause of the breakup.

Or the alcoholic could have been masking any problems he's been having with his wife, and when he stays sober, and sees how she really is, as opposed to how he imagined she was while under the influence, problems can occur.

I would argue that bad boys can sometimes ease themselves into a different personality, the marriage can have time to adjust, although not always. Because the quitting of drinking frequently comes with a "bottoming out realization" the shift is more dramatic, and more immediate, and can have a damaging effect on the union.

I would argue that dudes who became alcoholics halfway through the marriage, then became sober again after a few years would experience a better result.

Since the underlying topic here is controlling, dominating women that tend to not take responsibility for their problems and seek out partners onto whom they can shift responsibility, I would suggest that when screening a potential long term relationship candidate, to elicit her strategy for dealing with interpersonal problems. That should give an indication to her ability to take responsibility for her own problems. If she has a history of blaming others, or always seems to be a victim (like a lot of guys who magically always run into bi-polars) to next her ASAP and look for a more well rounded gal.

 

[jophil28]

Frequently when alcoholics give up the booze, they seldom fix the underlying reason which caused them to drink. Whatever behavior they pick up to satisfy the deeper imbalance might be the cause of the breakup.

.

The purpose of working the 12 step program is to resolve as many "defects of character" as possible. I love their 'old world' jargon...the AA program was originally written in pre-WW2 language.

Giving up alcohol and remaining abstinent is a relatively simple procedure. Changing habitual behavior takes a lot more energy, commitment and time.
Abstinence alone is not recovery.

However my original post pointed at the wives of alcoholics as hyper-critical, blaming, self righteous, pompous and controlling.
I have seen the evidence many times and I have also seen the outworking of new found sobriety on marriages and families. I have witnessed women become extremely angry, defiant, oppositional and provocative after their husband returns home from rehab and starts to resume his place as an equal adult and father.
I have seen women push and prod him into drinking again because that is the only way that she knew him and the only way that she could do business with him..I have heard women complain loudly, and at length, about his drinking and its effects on her, BUT walk out on him when he quits, only to marry another alcoholic two years later.

I have seen women refuse to accept his promise to never drink again because that would make him a "good guy" - one who now is a functioning equal. I have seen women restock the liquor cabinet in the same week that he returned from rehab. One wife even took to brewing his beer at home because "it cost only 12 cents a bottle ".

A greater part of the rewards that flowed from her social network , and the sympathy and understanding that she garnered from others was a result of her 'long suffering ' at the hands of her alcoholic husband . Martyrs love self promotion.
When he quits that role and becomes permanently sober , the sympathy and admiration that she has enjoyed from others dries up RAPIDLY and it often shifts, and accrues to HIM as friends and family acknowledge HIS strength and commitment to sobriety. Of course this is not how she has portrayed him to all and sundry in the past. I have seen women provoke and bicker endlessly in order to regenerate some reactive 'bad behavior' by him to keep her victimhood alive .
There is no question that sobriety and abstinence creates a huge power shift back to him... the old contract is cancelled.

However, the question here is whether women like this were INITIALLY attracted to his bad behavior as an alcohol abuser, as a kind of guarantee that he will always be 'the problem' and so remove her accountability to own her own mistakes and shortcomings.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I'm going to invoke POOK here, "perfect is boring". I think what's being lost here is the understanding that relationships evolve. What started out as thrilling for a woman becomes her liability later. It's the classic 'have her cake and eat it too' scenario that we go into often here. In her party years 18-27 a woman is looking for that excitement in a guy - or if she's married early in this phase and then divorced by 35 or older it's the Bad Boy who holds the most appeal when she goes back to dating again.

When she gets to the end phase of her party years and is looking for the Nice stable provider, she's still wanting that excitement, but without the chaos that the Bad Boy brings. A certain demographic of women would rather attempt to "fix" or reform the Bad Boy into her Nice Guy provider than deal with an unexciting lifelong "perfect" Nice Guy. That may work, it may not work, but for those that do cooperate they're still dealing with that chaotic nature (alcoholism, infidelity, etc.) within the confines of a marriage commitment.

Of the people that I know who deal with this, I'd definitely agree with JOPHIL that women will make "his" problem her convenience, and because of the victimhood presumption society affords women, it also becomes her virtue. That said however, it's a rare case that a woman will actively seek out (at least consciously) a practicing alcoholic to pair up with. Sticking with alcoholism in particular, anyone who's experienced it knows it's a progressive condition. So the married alcoholic at 40 was not the same alcoholic he was at 25 when he met his wife. Of course there are instances where a person is a full fledged alcoholic earlier in life, but the progressive nature of alcoholism evolves alongside the woman who'll play the role of mother, caretaker, nurse, victim, etc. that JOPHIL is describing. In fact this situation is only compounded more when you look at it from a power condition. When a man cannot or will not step into the masculine, decisive role of being the family anchor, his wife will fill that vacuum.

 

[Ballie]

I agree 100% with this post. My ex is a school teacher and wanted to control me - I refused to surrender 100%, maybe it is the "Bad Boy" part of my character. Teachers are used to be always right and perfect and will not take blame for anything.

The marriage didn't collapse until she became a born again christian - after recovering from her alcohol problem. THEN she was always right and I was the sinner - even when I went to church as well. I will not surrender 100% to anyone. I am a man after all.

Well, when she asked for a divorce - I agreed, was sick of her sh!te by then. Have regained my self asteem, thanks to this site and now am aware. I won't let it happen again and make it clear that I won't allow myself to be controlled.

 

[Jeffst1980]

Interesting stuff. Maybe this is the female equivalent of "Capn Save-a-h0?"

I think people, and women, don't like to cope with the changes another person makes to better their lives on some level, because of all the changes that go along with it. I think the same thing would happen to a guy that suddenly became really ambitious.

Say a man wants to run for political office. His partner may initially be supportive, but if his success appears imminent, she can't help but think of all the worst case scenarios that would uproot their family life. In this case, becoming a successful man can be a liability. We see this is politics time and time again; the wife of a politician is seen as a martyr.

I'd bet a similar thing happens to the guys that quits drinking. There is a loss of control that his wife will feel, because she has, by necessity, assumed the reigns for so many years. To suddenly have to switch roles is probably just too much.

I think there is less worry for the already successful politician that gets married, or the already sober, for that matter. If spousal roles are established from the getgo, they usually resist change fairly well.

It's probably a bit like the analogy of crabs in a barrel we use for AFC friends.

 

[Warrior74]

****ing selfish creatures...

as long as I as doing shows, going out, doing drugs, on tour...she was the poor suffering woman at home with the baby all the time. When I quit everything and started trying to be a better father, start a business and sober...she blew out. Now she's with someone who treats her way worse than I ever did so she can be the poor suffering victim and get all the attention from her friends and family.

 

[horaholic]

Great topic here. It all makes very good sense. Womens thought processes never cease to amaze me. My BPD ex was an alcoholic too, and I wanted nothing more than for her to stop, or at least cut down. She did quit when she was pregnant, so our relationship was better for that. Of course, she was still BPD, but her not getting wasted every day was really nice while it lasted. It amazes me that someone would want to leave someone, after they have cut out a very negative portion of their life. But, like Ballie said, sometimes when people sober up, they becomes very high and mighty, superior, and generally no fun to be around at all, like born again Christians very often do also. My real father comes to mind. He's a frickin prick, and I havent talked to him since I was 18. He quit drinking, and thought he was king of the world, and was right about everything. Of course, I think that is his personality in general, though. Unfortunately, I have inherited an arrogant attitude from him, and I hate it.

I admit I'm an alcoholic, but when Im in a relationship, I dont feel the need to drink, or party a lot. I reserve the partying for single periods. Im usually, a pretty well behaved drunk, though. I always hope that when I meet girls, that they feel the same, and most do, actually, but theres some that have to keep partying like they're single.

People often turn into a completely different person when they quit drinking too. There are a lot of my buddies, that I probably wouldnt recognize if they quit. People wouldnt recognize me either Im sure. I use alcohol as a social crutch, as Im naturally a loner, and very introverted, and booze opens me up. Therefore I'd probably not be as much fun if I totally quit, but I wouldnt be stupid at 3 am either. Jeffy from RSD said his game greately improved, when he forced him self to start sarging while sober. (not to mention how much money he saved, and how he felt. That is inspiring in itself.

I've gotten off the subject, but oh well.

 

[jophil28]

****ing selfish creatures...

as long as I as doing shows, going out, doing drugs, on tour...she was the poor suffering woman at home with the baby all the time. When I quit everything and started trying to be a better father, start a business and sober...she blew out. Now she's with someone who treats her way worse than I ever did so she can be the poor suffering victim and get all the attention from her friends and family.

This situation is far more common than you would think.

Your last sentence sums up the situation perfectly. IT is common in the 12 step community. The whining and complaining to others is valued more highly that staying in a marriage with a sober man, hence the famous AA saying, " Sobriety wrecks marriages" .
These types of women place a high value on the complaining, dramatic story telling to others, family sympathy and her feelings of 'superiority' .

Women like this place a huge value on wallowing in the role of "the poor suffering martyr" with all the compassion and sympathy that flows their way on a daily basis.

IF he straightens up and flys right, this flow of sympathy ends, and HE is the one who gets the attention and admiration from others for his strength and commitment to sobriety. This switch seems to be intolerable to these women.
After years of her loudly complaining to him ,and all others who would listen, about his out of control drinking, she cannot function with the reality of a sober guy who functions normally. So she either sabotages his recovery ( typically she starts to become irrationally angry and picks fight) or she leaves the relationship to find another substance abuser, and HER movie plays all over again with a new leading man..

THis is why AA created Al Anon for wives . Men were getting sober but their women were still just as crazy.

 

[jophil28]

I'd bet a similar thing happens to the guys that quits drinking. There is a loss of control that his wife will feel, because she has, by necessity, assumed the reigns for so many years. To suddenly have to switch roles is probably just too much.

.

These women marry the guy BECAUSE he is a drunk with all the drama that that brings.. THis perovides her with the power position because he is generally underfuctional ..default power is my term for it.
Marrying a drunk or a guy with addictions also supplies her with endless opportunities and reasons to complain and baitch to others.
His sobriety cancels that arrangement, and power is then shared ( or should be ) as per a regular marriage. However, she did not marry him to share power , she married him to 'assume' power.
And if you check her background you will usually see her model - her mother.

 

[CrypticCaptain]

Well, if you're not a bad boy or a nice guy, what are you? What about wanting to be a bad boy, but not knowing how?

Here's a question. Obviously, I have some issues in my own life, issues I have been trying to get over, figure out and put together for a long time, and the solution is probably easier than I realize. Alot of it I keep under wraps for not wanting to come ass messed up, or weird, etc. So should I used these as a hook to real chicks in? One of them is drinking to take my mind off of things like depression. How do you avoid a woman as described above?

 

[edger]

Anyone wanna take a swing at my question? I'd be really interested to know or understand why a woman would want to get involved with(and try to fix) a guy with Bi-Polar Disorder or "mental issues", as I've always understood it that women are turned off by men like this.

Also, a guy who resorts to alcohol to forget his life problems, I've always understood it that women are not supposed to find him attractive, because they see it as "weak"?

 

[penkitten]

i think it was chris rock that said 2 christians can stay together forever and 2 crack heads can stay together forever but a crack head and a christian could never make it.

some people marry alcoholics and not actually drink but still be depending on the alcohol to control their lives.... think of the members of the alanon meetings (all wives, mothers, sisters of alcoholics).

 

[WaterTiger]

Anyone wanna take a swing at my question? I'd be really interested to know or understand why a woman would want to get involved with(and try to fix) a guy with Bi-Polar Disorder or "mental issues", as I've always understood it that women are turned off by men like this.

Also, a guy who resorts to alcohol to forget his life problems, I've always understood it that women are not supposed to find him attractive, because they see it as "weak"?

"Normal Women" would be turned off by a guy who gets drunk and throws up on their $275.00 shoes. But the women who are drawn to these guys are NOT NORMAL. They think they can fix him. They "see" some kind of false potential in the man and want to bring it out.

They lie to themselves. Pure and simple.

They think if they can make him quit drinking (or doing drugs or whatever) that he'll be SO grateful he'll love them forever and it will be like a Harlequin Romance book kind of life.

These are NOT well women to start with. When their "project" is unable to quit his addiction, they feel they have failed and get angry at themselves... naturally they take it out on him:nono: . This is where the nagging, overbearing and screaming come in. The failure of their project man makes them look bad!

You'll hear them say "IF ONLY" quite a bit:

"We'd have such a nice home IF ONLY you'd quit drinking."
"You'd get that promoition IF ONLY you'd....."

They want him to quit his addiction so they can be the hero.

Should he actually quit...is where the trouble starts. She has been his cheerleader, mother and mentor for so long she can't see him as anything else but a junkie, a child, and a failure. You don't let junkies handle the checkbook, you don't let your children tell you how to run the house and you don't let a failure give you advice.

She'd never turn the reins over to such a flawed man. She will eventually leave and find another addict to rehabilitate. This is the only way she can see her self worth. If she's not fixing a man, she has no value.