An Observation

[ebracer05]

A lot of guys have lost sight of the forest for the trees as far as their romantic/dating priorities are concerned. A guy comes to this website because he's unhappy with some element of his ability to attract or maintain a relationship with a woman (or women). I think in most cases, the average guy who visits this forum isn't looking to develop some unbelievable harem of women or figure out how to cheat on his wife without anyone finding out, what's going on is that he is dissatisfied because he wants a meaningful relationship with a woman and hasn't been able to secure one.

As you read through the history of posts on this board, there's been a number of subtle and not so subtle shifts in the general pattern of thought. And what tends to happen is that someone with a lot of green dots next to their name or who is generally respected on the boards comes up with some idea and most follow in suit. The idea may have merit or a logical point behind it, but what I'm seeing lately is an overreaction against women.

I don't need to explain to anyone why feminism is bad and how it has placed men in an unfair and inequitable societal position. I don't need to tell anyone that men have forgotten how to be men. But it seems like something that isn't said nearly enough on these boards is that the solution to problems like this is not some masculine overreaction against women in the complete opposite direction. Not to make too extreme of a comparison but its the first thing that comes to mind - the Jews were not treated fairly during the holocaust, but I've never heard anyone advocate that the solution to their unfair treatment was to start killing Germans in turn.

Since the feminism movement relies heavy on shaming men and destroying their credibility/credibility, it seems many guys have adopted the "chick logic" that is responsible for feminism in this relatively new "masculinism". The bottom line is that not all women are terrible people, they're not all mental cases, cluster B's, and most of the time, what they're doing is a natural reaction to their cultural position.

If we can all agree that their is a supply problem as far as good men go, how can you fault women for adapting their game according to the short supply of good men? What are they supposed to do? If they did nothing, the guys who view women as inferior or stupid would be right. But all they are doing by creating adaptations like "the b*tch shield", "LJBF", "the creation of orbiters", ect. is attempting to leverage a better hand in this dating situation that's become more of a game than a war.

We are explicitly doing the same thing here and in some ways its good, but in a lot of pertinent ways, its making the situation worse.

Do you really think that the guys on this board who are out there just trying to get as much @ss as they can are superior companions to the AFCs? They may do a better job of generating attraction, pushing a woman's emotional buttons, and stirring up drama, but are they really doing anything to improve anyone's happiness, including their own?

Guys come here to find advice about their problems and to vent, and what they find is a community of other guys who have been burned in similar ways that they have been burned. When forced with two decisions, people tend to take the easier road regardless of efficacy, and what I notice is that most guys are finding the solution to their problem in blaming it on the poor quality of women out there rather than reflecting their problem inwardly and determining what they can do to improve themselves.

Why are we even here and why did we come here? I suspect that at the end of the day, most guys want a functionally happy relationship with a woman. Upping the ante in the dating war is not going to help facilitate that goal. To use a military analogy, we are not fighting against an "enemy" with an inferior army, less arms, and who is technologically inferior. We can up the ante all we want and the only thing that is going to result is the increased necessity of even tighter game, better looks, more social capital, et all.

We all know that there are plenty of "plugged in" AFC beta herb males out there who are scoring chicks and getting laid. This may not be happening with any regular frequency and may not be generating numbers in the 1000's, but I fail to see an attitude of truly general unhappiness among the masses of men out there because they haven't become "alpha males". Their girls may secretly wish they had an alpha, they may cheat, they may do terrible things behind their guy's back. But is it more a function of the terms of the dating war we've established or the fact that the guy is not alpha?

Basically, if you took away the dating war for a minute, would it be more valuable to a person for them to have a companion they were truly happy with or the pursuit of their hypergamy?

Anymore, yea, there's a lot of theoretical and real world merit to game theory, hypergamy and all that stuff, but as far as making me a legit happy man goes, its more frustrating than anything else. Its material you can use to get your d*ck wet, but it also feels to me like settling for a meal at McDonalds when you could have had choice prime rib or an awesome fillet from a high scale restaurant. The satisfaction is fleeting and not nearly long lasting.

Taking a step back from everything for a little while, this is what I see. All of this game/power/PUA stuff has a place somewhere, but I don't think its the end all and ought to be the focal point of a person's attention. I've read people say that this website is as much of a "matrix" as the world of women, and a lot of guys could use some unplugging.

Given two choices, a guy would be much better served to put himself out there and LIVE his LIFE and figure out the way things work rather than spend time reading about it on the internet. But like I said earlier, there are easy choices and hard choices... and reading is easy.

 

[Who Dares Win]

Dont get me wrong,credit to you for finding the time to write in detail all your observations but to make long story short:

Are you one of the many guys in the last weeks who say that this site and his doctrine is an exageration and guys should not take it too seriously?

Regarding some of your paragraphs it seems like you can make it a choice to believe in women hypergamy and craving for alphas, as if a guy could simply decide to dont believe it till it all would disappear.

While regarding this:

If we can all agree that their is a supply problem as far as good men go, how can you fault women for adapting their game according to the short supply of good men? What are they supposed to do? If they did nothing, the guys who view women as inferior or stupid would be right. But all they are doing by creating adaptations like "the b*tch shield", "LJBF", "the creation of orbiters", ect. is attempting to leverage a better hand in this dating situation that's become more of a game than a war.

Its totally wrong, women are not adapting to anything, women are simply getting the best they can simply because the market allow them.

They want attention so they get an orbiter, they dont like an orbiter anymore so they cut him out, they dont wanna have sex with a guy but still wants to have him around so they give the LJBF card etc.

They are not adapting,they are simply doing whatever they want cause in the first time in history factors as demography,economy,culture and media allow them to play in "god mode".

What they are supposed to do since you ask, is the same men should do for both men and women well being.
What they should do is dont push it beyond the limits driven from ego and validation desires.

 

[backbreaker]

that's a good post and i agree with most of it.


i think you need to do a good job of knowing who you are taking advice from.

to be blunt, some people are just mentally tougher than others.


first, you have to understand that everyone, women, you, me, anyone is going to always look out for their precieved best interest at all time and rationalize it however they feel like later. you can't take the **** women do too personally they are doing what they feel is best.

I think i have a lot to offer as far as real life experience with the opposite sex and what i have done has worked so far, so i'm not going to stop doing what has worked so i will keep coming here, no point in changing it now. while I understand the logic behind cluster B's and alphas and all the terminology that's not really my style, I don't like to sit back and theorize about what women want that's not how i roll. what good is it anyway? how is you figuring out the keys to hypergomay going to get your knob polished more often lol? understanding the elements behind why some things happen is one thing and I feel i have a very solid grasp of most of it but I never want to get to the point where i am coming up with thesises on why women do this or that. that's just not me.

also you have to balance this place with real life and the real world. lol i remember reading a post directed at me a few months ago some dude was telling me he couldn't listen to me because i was married and why did you feel the need to get married if you were successful with women. lol i'm like dude i don't' have to fvckign explain to you why i got married she's my wife i love her. that's all you need to know.

I think at the end of the day we were just all lied to growing up. we were told, led to believe if you acted virtuous and self sacrificing you would be rewarded, but that's not true. people will always look out for their best interest. you will and i will. understanding the key to that is the main thing and will stop you from being bitter because i do the same thing when i have sex with a girl or had sex with a girl a few weeks and stopped answering her calls. yeah i was a dog so what fvck you, i don't like you like that and you are boring.

I Think the key to being a "DJ" or "alpha", which has seemed to overtake the term DJ intersting enough, anyway is learning to be 100% honest with yourself about what you want. you will be suprised at how few people can do this. like pandora in his thread about his pure friends, he will not admit to himself that he wanted to fvck em. he knows it. i know it. everyone the god damn thread knows it. but he can't be honest with himself about his feelings. i think this, is the biggest and most important step to being a man/dj/whatever. knowing what you want, not compremising what you want and if you don't get what you want, walk.

part of the AFC's problem or the main problem as i see it is that.. he's just fake. it's not real. the love letters, the candy, the poems, the virtuous honor it's all bull**** and she knows it. you are doing what society has told you that you are supposed to do not what you want to do, you are taking me out to these fancy dinners not beucase you enjoy eating her but you want to get in my pants and even if you ask the guy on the date who is paying 100 dollars for a dinner does he want to have sex he will say no even though of course he knows and she knows but he tap dances around the issue.

i guess what i am trying to say is that, the key to not getting too warped view of women is to be honest about what your intentions were, and are and just to not take **** so personnally

 

[Findog]

Great post. It's important to remember that neither gender has a monopoly on bad behavior.

Rollo recently posted a link to an interview the Krauser PUA guy did, I think the thread is called London Real. Anyways, one of the things Krauser said in his interview is that every guy should learn Game. Put it another way regarding semantics, you could just call it life skills. And you can use those life skills or game to go out and hit the bars and up the number of notches on your bedpost if that's what you want, or you could use those skills to establish an LTR with a woman. Pick Up Artistry is simply a lifestyle. You need game to be good at it. You also need game if you want a LTR. I agree with the OP that most guys would prefer a healthy, functional LTR, especially the older they get.

I think that learning game or improving your life skills as you get older is really about becoming a better man and optimizing your potential. Increased success with women in that sense is a byproduct of improving yourself instead of being the endgame. If there's one thing I've learned since reading and immersing myself in the manosphere, it's that you have to have a mission in life, and that mission shouldn't be a woman. That mission can be your career, some sort of pursuit outside of your profession, but it can't be a woman. Your typical woman doesn't want to be your everything, she instead wants to complement and support you in your journey. I also think that a lot of the guys that end up here are either recovering omega/lesser beta males like myself, or they had a really bad experience with a Cluster B. You don't see happily-married men typically exposing themselves to the manosphere.

I think it's important to be willing to take responsibility for the role you play in your failures and struggles, not adopt a victim mentality, and to not wallow in self pity. When it comes to getting burned by a Cluster B or an otherwise low-quality female, the tale of the frog and the scorpion comes to mind. It's naivety to not know it was a scorpion you were dealing with, or arrogance to think you could tame it. And ultimately, if you want happy, healthy people in your life, you are going to have to start with yourself. Nobody wants to deal with a morose, gloomy gus. The solution to our problems starts at home by dealing with our own sh*t and becoming the healthiest possible versions of ourselves that we can be.

 

[Iceberg]

What they are supposed to do since you ask, is the same men should do for both men and women well being.
What they should do is dont push it beyond the limits driven from ego and validation desires.

It kind of sounds to me like you're saying that women should settle for less than is available to them.

The game is what it is. Honestly, I don't want it to be easy. Anything that comes easily is boring. Sometimes I break up with girls....sometimes they break up with me. They see better things out there for themselves, and that's fair. I can't have every girl I date dreaming of marriage and a white picket fence with me.

I'm not saying you, Who Dares, but seems like some guys on here want to take it back to the day of arranged marriages. Or like, you see a pretty girl, you give her parents 5 pigs and a hundred bucks, and she's yours for life. Where's the fun in that? Where's the challenge?

Do women crave alphas? I guess so. It's in their blood. Same as we crave supermodels, or at least the hot young interns in our offices. Such is life, right? Point is, women and men can crave what they want - all chicks aren't gonna get the captain of the football team, and all guys aren't gonna get the supermodel.

I guess my overall point is - the game is the game. It's always been this way. 5,000 years ago, during the age of "real men", dudes were whining about their wives and writing crappy love songs about some girl they couldn't get. It's just a matter of seeing things how they really are, and not how you want to see them. Just because you're dating a hot girl today, doesn't mean she's yours forever. Just because a girl flakes on you doesn't mean that she's craving a badboy "alpha"...it just means she isnt craving you. At the end of the day, you'll get your girl. Just like anything else worthwhile, we gotta work for it. You might go through 5 more women, you might go through 50. Such is life. All the anger and mistrust and cynicism doesn't help. Just see the game for what it is...you have your cards. The girls have their cards. Their power only exists if you give it to them.

 

[Who Dares Win]

It kind of sounds to me like you're saying that women should settle for less than is available to them.

Thats the point, they should settle for what is available for them while they try to settle for what they cant have.

The harem of orbiters and ljbfriended men while aiming at something that is beyond their value, I lost the counts of the girls who overestimate their value because they managed to get a night with the top dog so they convinced themselves that that level of men is what they deserve.

What actually happened was that the top dog didnt mind to nail that girl in that moment and did it, no different than when we're on a dry spell and nail some girl much down our league.

Then you said:

Just because you're dating a hot girl today, doesn't mean she's yours forever.

and thats exactly what meant when I said both men and women should not push beyond their limits.
The limits can be moved(especially for men) but yet somewhere they still exist, try to live above them makes you unhappy as much as in greater scale makes unhappy the opposite sex.

If you read the first line you quoted you'll find out that what I said about women works the same about men, what changes is the market regarding the two genders.

And regarding the combined marriages is not surprise that many guys would like that time to come back, wondered why chinese and indians can focus on their careers and fortune without a headache?
Yeah cause they are sure once done, they'll be getting a wife with no hurries or drama, they know a productive member of society gets rewared from fixed criteria.

Sincerly its not what I'd like since as many on here I like to hunt but I perfectly understand the guys who do.

 

[Iceberg]

Thats the point, they should settle for what is available for them while they try to settle for what they cant have.

The harem of orbiters and ljbfriended men while aiming at something that is beyond their value, I lost the counts of the girls who overestimate their value because they managed to get a night with the top dog so they convinced themselves that that level of men is what they deserve.

Girl or guy, if you can get away with overestimating your value then do it. Life is too short to settle for boredom.

And there are certainly plenty of women who are dating normal good guys. Just because we sit around on this site anaylzing male/female relations, doesn't mean all guys are.

And yeah, club skanks are always looking to upgrade to the most muscled-up, bottle-service, VIP lounge dude...but club skanks aren't real people.

and thats exactly what meant when I said both men and women should not push beyond their limits.

One of the best things about being a man is pushing beyond my limits. If I'm living my life within some pre-established limitation, then what's the point? Hell, I might as well just jump out the window and get it over with.

And regarding the combined marriages is not surprise that many guys would like that time to come back, wondered why chinese and indians can focus on their careers and fortune without a headache?

All due respect to my chinese and indian friends, but those countries haven't been known for careers and fortune. Especially in the parts of that country where arranged marriages are still happening. Having some wife thrown at you isn't the key to success, I don't think.

Anyway, my philosophy is this - The marketplace is what it is. You're selling a product (yourself), if no one is buying then you can't blame the customers.

A shop owner can't get mad at you for looking around his store and not buying anything. How can I get mad at some girls for not wanting me? I can't win them all, right?

 

[wait_out]

I do think there is a lot of confusion. Happy self-actuated men can see a girl they like, talk to her, get rejected or take it to success without many issues. This results in a lot of tail. Unhappy guys aspiring to this, think, "if I got a lot of tail, I would be happy and self-actuated". Unfortunately it's usually more complicated than that and they're swimming against the tide by not unfcking their inner conflicts first. Finally, you have guys who can't get any traction, who simply get relief from a philosophy that degrades and devalues women, essentially the "sour grapes" angle. They tend to be the most vocal since it's psychological maintenance thing.

I don't think it's easy to discard the self-improvement/PUA angle... some guys go through an inner conflict when they want to talk to a woman, and that is a problem that will make your life miserable. It needs to be resolved.

I don't see dating as a zero sum game either and I think women have everything to gain from happy guys who aren't afraid of them, don't have unrealistic ideas and can treat them well. Being that women aren't going to help guys much (once again, the most vocal women about dating are the ones with issues and listening to them is a mistake), it falls to guys to solve this issue. SS and the internet in general is a means to that end... there is no quality control but what can be done? It's up to each reader to take the information that seems well-balanced and avoid the nonsense. I don't see this changing much in the future.

 

[Burroughs]

And regarding the combined marriages is not surprise that many guys would like that time to come back, wondered why chinese and indians can focus on their careers and fortune without a headache?
Yeah cause they are sure once done, they'll be getting a wife with no hurries or drama, they know a productive member of society gets rewared from fixed criteria.

Yes...very true

I run a biotech lab with 50+ scientists most of whom are Indian or E Asian...90% of whom are married. Now these guys make Erkel look like Labron James, supernerdy, very bad conversational skills etc...would be eaten alive if they had to fend for themselves in the western dating scene

And indeed once ensconced in their arranged marriage they really can focus on their career and flourish.

on the other hand...my american born scientists are mainly single, some of whom have a very rough time in the dating world...just as well educated as their indian counterparts but unmarried, funny thing is these guys are 7-8s i'd say, mountain climbers, marathoners, but find navigating the ever degrading world of american dating frustrating...these are scientists used to world of logic and hypothesis...

so here you see the clear contrast..super nerdy, dorky indians, who have a woman and stable lives DUE TO THEIR CULTURE vs MUCH better looking, more social, but unhappy american scientists unable to find girls because IN OUR CULTURE every hb5 (or at least many) girl and above wants and thinks she deserves tom brady...and this in a lab setting...i'm telling you there is a sociology thesis here for sure.

 

[Gro0ver]

Great post.

I've got a real love/hate relationship with this website at the moment for this very reason. Too many whingers ready to blame the opposite sex for not recognising their greatness.

2 things need to be remembered:

1) You attract what you are according to the laws of attraction....if you're attracting low quality women with emotional issues then you need to try to understand rationally why that is happening.

2) Looks aren't everything I think a lot of good women get passed up based on looks. We all love a hottie in our bed, but unfortunately they very often come with some kind of baggage. Be curious about people, if you really want to find a good woman then don't discount the hb5/6, if she can turn you on mentally and inspire your imagination then it could be real interesting.

Problem with hotties is that often they've been able to get by on their looks, whereas the less hot females have had to develop more advanced social skills/ways to attract guys in order to compete. Investigate them first before discounting them.

 

[zekko]

Are you one of the many guys in the last weeks who say that this site and his doctrine is an exageration and guys should not take it too seriously?

Regarding some of your paragraphs it seems like you can make it a choice to believe in women hypergamy and craving for alphas, as if a guy could simply decide to dont believe it till it all would disappear.

I don't think there is any question that the doctrines on this site are exaggerated. Guys make sweeping generalizations to make a point, but there are no absolutes. Just saying something like "Women will always marry the Beta while fvcking the Bad Boy behind his back" - the always part in there guarantees it's an exaggeration. There is always an exception, or more accurately, several.

Take hypergamy for example. I thought this concept was well debunked in the "hypergamy is not a caste system" thread. Hypergamy is something that happens, but it's not going to happen every time, in every situation. That thread gave reasons why a woman is not going to leave a stable relationship with an 8.3 just because she happens to see an 8.4 walk by. More often than not, I'd say she becomes bored with the relationship in the first place, before ever deciding to make a jump.

Besides, don't both men and women alike want the best they can get for their dating market value? It seems like most guys on this site don't want to settle for anything less than a "dime" (even though I don't believe in such a thing). When what have they done to deserve it? You don't think a lot of guys here would drop their girlfriend if a hotter chick started hitting on them? I do believe women will dump their husbands for a better option quicker than a man will, but that's just because women are more likely to dump their husbands, period.

Anyway, who's to say which guy is a better option? Is it because he's better looking? Or is it because he's richer? Or is it because he's a scruffy loser with a smirk on his face? Does that make him somehow more alpha?

Alpha is another term here that is totally overused. In the Krauser video Rollo linked to, Krauser points out that in the old days, the alpha was literally the king. He was the ruler, and he had a harem. Meanwhile, you've got a bunch of guys on this site claiming to be alpha because they put on an "I don't care about women" attitude. Well, sorry, unless you would have risen up to be the literal king back in the old days, you aren't anywhere near as alpha as you think you are.

 

[Findog]

I don't think there is any question that the doctrines on this site are exaggerated. Guys make sweeping generalizations to make a point, but there are no absolutes. Just saying something like "Women will always marry the Beta while fvcking the Bad Boy behind his back" - the always part in there guarantees it's an exaggeration. There is always an exception, or more accurately, several.

Take hypergamy for example. I thought this concept was well debunked in the "hypergamy is not a caste system" thread. Hypergamy is something that happens, but it's not going to happen every time, in every situation. That thread gave reasons why a woman is not going to leave a stable relationship with an 8.3 just because she happens to see an 8.4 walk by. More often than not, I'd say she becomes bored with the relationship in the first place, before ever deciding to make a jump.

Besides, don't both men and women alike want the best they can get for their dating market value? It seems like most guys on this site don't want to settle for anything less than a "dime" (even though I don't believe in such a thing). When what have they done to deserve it? You don't think a lot of guys here would drop their girlfriend if a hotter chick started hitting on them? I do believe women will dump their husbands for a better option quicker than a man will, but that's just because women are more likely to dump their husbands, period.

Anyway, who's to say which guy is a better option? Is it because he's better looking? Or is it because he's richer? Or is it because he's a scruffy loser with a smirk on his face? Does that make him somehow more alpha?

Alpha is another term here that is totally overused. In the Krauser video Rollo linked to, Krauser points out that in the old days, the alpha was literally the king. He was the ruler, and he had a harem. Meanwhile, you've got a bunch of guys on this site claiming to be alpha because they put on an "I don't care about women" attitude. Well, sorry, unless you would have risen up to be the literal king back in the old days, you aren't anywhere near as alpha as you think you are.

We don't live in tribes anymore, so there is no one guy who is an alpha or The Alpha. Like Krauser says, most guys have a mixture of alpha and beta traits. And a guy might be an Alpha in one situation but a Beta in another. Michael Jordan was unquestionably The Alpha in the Chicago Bulls locker room. But when he's at a meeting with other venture capitalists, or he's just another NBA owner with far less net worth and experience than other owners, is he still an Alpha in that scenario? A guy might be an Alpha as a result of being a supervisor at work and having to show leadership and get stuff done and order people reporting to him to do certain tasks, but around his friends, he might be more of a follower type. I think Alpha is more or less just being comfortable in your own skin, and that is something that takes time and becoming more self-aware.

I think a lot of guys end up on this site and other places in the manosphere because of bad experiences with women - maybe they're omega males that never get laid, lesser beta males that have hardly any romantic prospects, or maybe they had an excruciating experience with a divorce or a pretty hard breakup. It's important to remember that neither gender has a monopoly on bad behavior and you can't paint with too broad of a brush because a bad experience or two you had with a woman. Either you contributed plenty to the demise of that relationship or you picked badly - the scorpion and the frog scenario. I like a quote from Conan O'Brien when he got f*cked over out of the Tonight Show Gig - he said "I hate cynicism. It's my least favorite quality and it doesn't lead to anything. You know, all of us in life don't get exactly what we thought we were going to get or deserved to get, but if you work really hard and you're kind to people, then amazing things will happen."

 

[Who Dares Win]

One of the best things about being a man is pushing beyond my limits. If I'm living my life within some pre-established limitation, then what's the point? Hell, I might as well just jump out the window and get it over with.

If you are a speed runner who wants to beat the world record, you can try to push your limits since you're in a condition that could lead you to success.

If you are a wigger who things have no limits and wants to "wage war on the streets" then no since there are no chances for that limit to be passed.

I agree with what you said just read my name here, as long of course that success chances exists.
I dont see how a fat girl in her 30s could have a rock star settle for her.

All due respect to my chinese and indian friends, but those countries haven't been known for careers and fortune. Especially in the parts of that country where arranged marriages are still happening. Having some wife thrown at you isn't the key to success, I don't think.

We will talk about it in 20 yrs?

Anyway, my philosophy is this - The marketplace is what it is. You're selling a product (yourself), if no one is buying then you can't blame the customers.

A shop owner can't get mad at you for looking around his store and not buying anything. How can I get mad at some girls for not wanting me? I can't win them all, right?

Now imagine if a client come,see your apple and leave because someone on tv said that apple should by got for free or sold at 50% discount (culture).

 

[Burroughs]

All due respect to my chinese and indian friends, but those countries haven't been known for careers and fortune.

haven't been known for careers and fortune?! are you kidding me.

china is printing billionaires by the dozen..they are buying most of the world's steel for skyscraper construction

about 70% of the high level engineers and VCs in silicon valley are indian immigrants...go into any sand hill road office any time and you'll think you're in mumbai...40% of facebook's top management tier is indian

and 99% of these dudes have arranged marriages...these are guys that have zero game, look like apu, and pull in 100k a month and they arrived in the country 5 years ago...impressive i would say.

I am continually astonished at the work ethic of the indian scientists who work for me, their lives are stable and their women keep awesome homes, cook exceptionally well, and raise well behaved obedient children...and not one of these men have an ounce of 'game' to speak of.

How many Americans can say the same thing?

And the only response is 'you must continually run game on your wife..." neg etc... how stupid lol

...makes you wonder what path we are on as Americans.

 

[Iceberg]

haven't been known for careers and fortune?! are you kidding me.

china is printing billionaires by the dozen..they are buying most of the world's steel for skyscraper construction

about 70% of the high level engineers and VCs in silicon valley are indian immigrants...go into any sand hill road office any time and you'll think you're in mumbai...40% of facebook's top management tier is indian

and 99% of these dudes have arranged marriages...these are guys that have zero game, look like apu, and pull in 100k a month and they arrived in the country 5 years ago...impressive i would say.

I am continually astonished at the work ethic of the indian scientists who work for me, their lives are stable and their women keep awesome homes, cook exceptionally well, and raise well behaved obedient children...and not one of these men have an ounce of 'game' to speak of.

How many Americans can say the same thing?

And the only response is 'you must continually run game on your wife..." neg etc... how stupid lol

...makes you wonder what path we are on as Americans.

China has really become a blossoming economy. India isn't far behind. But you do realize that their success is about 10 years old (not literally, but they haven't been known as Lands of Opportunity).

My point is, if arranged marriages are the key to wealth and success, it wouldn't have taken 2 of the world's most populated countries until 2012 to reach this "Age of Enlightenment" you're crediting them with. They're some of the oldest cultures in the world...and they've been having arranged marriages since forever. I'm pretty sure it's a little more complex than "arranged marriage = success".

It's not like the only thing stopping a man from being successful is having a wife at his side. Women are great and all, but I'm gonna give them that much credit.

 

[Burroughs]

China has really become a blossoming economy. India isn't far behind. But you do realize that their success is about 10 years old (not literally, but they haven't been known as Lands of Opportunity).

10 years old?!

You are clueless lol

China and India are the oldest continuous civilizations on Earth 8000 and 7000 years old respective..thats a good run i'd say....you need to study up

And as far as opportunity....dude seriously....why do you think marco polo went there in the first place?! $$$

 

[Iceberg]

10 years old?!

You are clueless lol

China and India are the oldest continuous civilizations on Earth 8000 and 7000 years old respective..thats a good run i'd say....you need to study up

And as far as opportunity....dude seriously....why do you think marco polo went there in the first place?! $$$

And why are 70% of high level engineers in Silicon Valley Indian immigrants?

$$$?

Are 70% of any high level workforce in China American immigrants?

Wait wait...I get it...first they get the arranged marriage in China/India, THEN they emigrate here, and THEN they become super successful. So, it all starts with the arranged marriage. And then it's all lobster and caviar from there.

 

[ebracer05]

We don't live in tribes anymore, so there is no one guy who is an alpha or The Alpha. Like Krauser says, most guys have a mixture of alpha and beta traits. And a guy might be an Alpha in one situation but a Beta in another. Michael Jordan was unquestionably The Alpha in the Chicago Bulls locker room. But when he's at a meeting with other venture capitalists, or he's just another NBA owner with far less net worth and experience than other owners, is he still an Alpha in that scenario? A guy might be an Alpha as a result of being a supervisor at work and having to show leadership and get stuff done and order people reporting to him to do certain tasks, but around his friends, he might be more of a follower type. I think Alpha is more or less just being comfortable in your own skin, and that is something that takes time and becoming more self-aware.

I think a lot of guys end up on this site and other places in the manosphere because of bad experiences with women - maybe they're omega males that never get laid, lesser beta males that have hardly any romantic prospects, or maybe they had an excruciating experience with a divorce or a pretty hard breakup. It's important to remember that neither gender has a monopoly on bad behavior and you can't paint with too broad of a brush because a bad experience or two you had with a woman. Either you contributed plenty to the demise of that relationship or you picked badly - the scorpion and the frog scenario. I like a quote from Conan O'Brien when he got f*cked over out of the Tonight Show Gig - he said "I hate cynicism. It's my least favorite quality and it doesn't lead to anything. You know, all of us in life don't get exactly what we thought we were going to get or deserved to get, but if you work really hard and you're kind to people, then amazing things will happen."

This is a very good post.

I think in general you tend to get what you are worth but in many cases, people tend to overvalue their worth and expect something disproportionate to what reality would otherwise dictate. I agree with Zekko that there are no hard, fast, absolute rules, so yea, sometimes a guy who is worth an arbitrary 6 will end up with an 8. But most of the time, people get what they're worth.

Finadog made another comment that said in essence the dictum this site allegedly espouses - that we, as men, need to be all about improving ourselves. This is one of the reasons why hypergamy is not a caste system. There seems to be in inborn assumption in a lot of people's writings that we "are what we are", and that's true in the present moment, but it's absolutely false to project in the future unless that's what we choose for ourselves! Just about every guy out there can take steps to make himself better looking, more confident, a better dresser, more comfortable in his skin, a better communicator, funnier, wittier, more knowledgeable, more muscular... the list goes on.

But this is the stuff that guys don't like to do. Most people live with a mindset that is fixated on self centered short term solutions, even when a different solution would produce better results. We don't want to delay gratification. We'd rather have those beers with our buddies or order that large pizza. We'd rather forgo learning how to cold approach. It's easier to send a message to a woman online behind the cloak of a computer picture. We'd rather do anything in most cases, except the thing that is going to give us the results we actually want.

Why?

Because like Iceberg said, easy things aren't worth it in most cases.

Consider your life and the things you've worked for. In general, when you think of the things that have been the best, most valuable, most enjoyable, where they things that just "fell in to your lap" or that you accomplished with little investment, or were they things you had to work hard over, agonize over, perhaps even sweat and bleed for?

It's most likely the latter.

The more I get off of this website and experience life in the real world, the more I see a lot of the problems guys running in to as a result of both sexes having their defenses raised to full red alert and neither one being willing to lower them, understandably so.

Men are the leaders of society whether they choose to acknowledge their position. And the difference between a guy or a dude, a bro.... and a man.... is that the man understands this self improvement thing and understands that game is a life skills concept more than it is a series of tricks, tactics, and manipulations. He understands the power plays that are going on around him in this dating war because he's paid attention long enough, but more importantly, he's been involved in the war himself long enough. I think Robert Green said this somewhere in his 48 laws of power book in essence - the best way to understand your enemy is to know them, and one of the best ways to know someone is to spend time with them.

How in the world do guys think they're going to improve their life situation with women by sitting around on their computer for hours without ever having gone out and put their skills to use?? It's a reliance on other people's words, other people's experiences, with absolutely no input from the most important source of all in the matter - yourself.

This sums it up pretty well:

I guess my overall point is - the game is the game. It's always been this way. 5,000 years ago, during the age of "real men", dudes were whining about their wives and writing crappy love songs about some girl they couldn't get. It's just a matter of seeing things how they really are, and not how you want to see them. Just because you're dating a hot girl today, doesn't mean she's yours forever. Just because a girl flakes on you doesn't mean that she's craving a badboy "alpha"...it just means she isnt craving you. At the end of the day, you'll get your girl. Just like anything else worthwhile, we gotta work for it. You might go through 5 more women, you might go through 50. Such is life. All the anger and mistrust and cynicism doesn't help. Just see the game for what it is...you have your cards. The girls have their cards. Their power only exists if you give it to them.

Guys don't understand the power they have in the sexual market place and the dating war because it rests on a skill that most have forgotten even exists... the ability to walk away. When I've said before that bad relationships are worse than no relationship and sex with a woman who submits you to something against your principals or values in order to get it is worse than no sex - this is what I mean.

If guys learned how to walk away, things would be so much different. But guys have placed p*ssy on such a big whopping tall pedestal that they're willing to compromise anything in order to get it, including their pride, self esteem, and value as an individual. Actions speak so much louder than words, and when guys ACT like that in general, it sends a VERY loud message to women and tells them EXACTLY what sort of standard of expectation guys have and how they value themselves. If guys value themselves so low, why should women value them any more?

 

[zekko]

I think when guys come here because of bad experiences with women, a lot of the time they've been dealing with girls that are higher value than them. Like they've been made into orbiters by some super hottie, for example. Pickup gurus like to tell you that no one is out of your league, but in real life things don't always work that way. That's why self improvement is the best message they have here - raise your value to as high a level as your genetics and circumstances permit. But no one can make themselves into a perfect 10, and some guys will always be more successful than others, no matter how hard you work.

By the way, recently a young girl in her early 20s started crushing on me because I took the time to stop and talk to her while she was feeling lonely. That tells me two things:

1). These girls don't care how old you are. There are some bitter guys on the general forum who swear older men can't generate attraction with young girls. I've seen this happen enough that I know better.

And no, I'm not going to bang her. Not only would my LTR not like it, she's too immature for me, even though she is attractive.

2). It's not always about being more alpha, or more of a bad boy, or how many notches you have on your bedpost. Sometimes it's just being in the right place at the right time. In this situation, I did something NICE for somebody - I stopped and listened. Oh, how will the PUAs explain that, since they are all so dead set against being NICE? It doesn't match up with their imaginary bad boy world, does it?

 

[backbreaker]

I think when guys come here because of bad experiences with women, a lot of the time they've been dealing with girls that are higher value than them. Like they've been made into orbiters by some super hottie, for example. Pickup gurus like to tell you that no one is out of your league, but in real life things don't always work that way. That's why self improvement is the best message they have here - raise your value to as high a level as your genetics and circumstances permit. But no one can make themselves into a perfect 10, and some guys will always be more successful than others, no matter how hard you work.

By the way, recently a young girl in her early 20s started crushing on me because I took the time to stop and talk to her while she was feeling lonely. That tells me two things:

1). These girls don't care how old you are. There are some bitter guys on the general forum who swear older men can't generate attraction with young girls. I've seen this happen enough that I know better.

And no, I'm not going to bang her. Not only would my LTR not like it, she's too immature for me, even though she is attractive.

2). It's not always about being more alpha, or more of a bad boy, or how many notches you have on your bedpost. Sometimes it's just being in the right place at the right time. In this situation, I did something NICE for somebody - I stopped and listened. Oh, how will the PUAs explain that, since they are all so thd set against being NICE? It doesn't match up with their imaginary bad boy world, does it?

actually i think it's 100% the opposite.

too many men equate looks = value. I know rollo likes to say that looks are all men care about and i admit it is a lot of it if not most of it but there are some very low quality good looking women out there.

I've been through some **** with women growing up.. i never was ugly, i usually kept some women interested in me... although my oneitis had issues, i consider her and still do a high quality woman. she will never be confused with ayn rand but she isn't stupid, she's cultured,s he's not a slut... and even though it took me 6 years to tap it lol, and she did some pretty screwed up things.. i can honestly say she gave a damn about me.. **** it was her that checked me into rehab. she might not have liked me like that.. but she gave a ****. she never.. how can i put this.. she never burned me if that makes sense. hurt yes, but the issues i haave with or ha d with women, really dont' stem from her. just a dude getting lead around by a girl that is hot but she honestly treated me with respect. as much as possible at least. when i told her i honestly need space from her she respected it and left me alone for 2 years.

no.. the nes that left deep scrares are the good looking but low quality women. the getto yet very cute i girl i dated for 8 months that got gangbanged at a party. the girl that you dated that had issues and would fvck guys just so you can find out about it for no reason than she can. the cute bartender who poked holes in a condom to try tog et me to commit to her even though she was already married

do not confuse getting hurt with getting scared. everyone gets hurt. but we all put trust in the wrong people. that was my main probelm. i thought everyone was my mom and they weren't.