After giving it some thought, turns out my fear of rejection isn't *really* a fear of rejection

[Gamisch]

I admit my social standing costs me some points.

Purely on looks, however, I already am a 6/7.



Not very masculine? I have a chiseled jawline.

LOL

Let me break it down for you;

10 years ago ( when you experienced your last successes) the game was totally different from what it is today. The game isn't like it was 10 years ago, you're living in the past bruh.

If you have your current body, you CAN'T be a 6 let alone a 7. Similarly an overweight obese woman cant be more than an hb5 and that's assumimg she has a GORGEOUS face!

You could get "seven like results " if you could compensate looks with the abundance of money or status and perhaps personality. Not the case.

Add your odd behaviour to the equation and you CAN NOT be a 6. At the end of the day a woman will evaluate all factors and place you into the sub4 category.

 

[Clockwerk50]

This is probably how @GoodMan32 personality may be. +/- 10% difference.

I admit my social standing costs me some points.

Purely on looks, however, I already am a 6/7.



Not very masculine? I have a chiseled jawline.

OP, I’m not sure how much exposure you have had to interactions with men or women, but a 7 in looks typically falls into the “Chad-lite” category. These individuals often receive a significant amount of IOIs right off the bat, purely based on their appearance. That said, I understand you have a strong opinion about your own looks. However, from my perspective, you seem to fall somewhere between a 4 and a 6. Since attractiveness is a subjective topic, let’s leave it at that.

Nonetheless, I want to let you know that this forum generally provides advice to men on:

1. How to get IOIs from women (through looks, money, status, personality).

2. How to engage when IOIs are received to advance the seduction process (texting, dates, logistics).

3. How to maintain a relationship based on one’s goals with the woman in question (effort, comfort, managing challenges).

Unfortunately, when it comes to your situation, there seem to be significant obstacles preventing you from following standard practices. These include issues like being labeled a “creep” in high school, a fear of rejection from someone you interact with regularly, concerns about impregnating a woman, anxieties tied to autism, and other similar challenges. These fall into the category of traumas or phobias. As much as the members of this forum aim to help, none of us are trained professionals equipped to help you overcome these deeper issues. Would you agree?

Psychologists and psychotherapists specialize in helping individuals rewire their thinking by guiding them to draw their own positive conclusions. This is outside the scope of what this forum can offer.

Additionally, we’re not entirely sure what your specific goals are. If your aim is to get laid, following the SOP is essential. However, if your traumas prevent you from doing so, this forum may not be the right platform to help you let go of those barriers. When we attempt to address them without the proper expertise, it can lead to frustration and circular conversations. Don’t you agree?

That said, everyone here would still be happy to discuss how to generate IOIs, analyze specific situations, or advise you on why an IOI attempt may have failed or why a woman might have left. We can provide input on topics like these, but anything deeper would require a different kind of support.

 

[SW15]

At the end of the day a woman will evaluate all factors and place you into the sub4 category.

While I stand by my assessment that looks are #1, women do consider all factors. A generic guy with looks above a 6 but nothing on money, status, or personality is going to be a below average tier option for women.

 

[GoodMan32]

This is probably how @GoodMan32 personality may be. +/- 10% difference.

OP, I’m not sure how much exposure you have had to interactions with men or women, but a 7 in looks typically falls into the “Chad-lite” category. These individuals often receive a significant amount of IOIs right off the bat, purely based on their appearance. That said, I understand you have a strong opinion about your own looks. However, from my perspective, you seem to fall somewhere between a 4 and a 6. Since attractiveness is a subjective topic, let’s leave it at that.

Nonetheless, I want to let you know that this forum generally provides advice to men on:

1. How to get IOIs from women (through looks, money, status, personality).

2. How to engage when IOIs are received to advance the seduction process (texting, dates, logistics).

3. How to maintain a relationship based on one’s goals with the woman in question (effort, comfort, managing challenges).

Unfortunately, when it comes to your situation, there seem to be significant obstacles preventing you from following standard practices. These include issues like being labeled a “creep” in high school, a fear of rejection from someone you interact with regularly, concerns about impregnating a woman, anxieties tied to autism, and other similar challenges. These fall into the category of traumas or phobias. As much as the members of this forum aim to help, none of us are trained professionals equipped to help you overcome these deeper issues. Would you agree?

Psychologists and psychotherapists specialize in helping individuals rewire their thinking by guiding them to draw their own positive conclusions. This is outside the scope of what this forum can offer.

Additionally, we’re not entirely sure what your specific goals are. If your aim is to get laid, following the SOP is essential. However, if your traumas prevent you from doing so, this forum may not be the right platform to help you let go of those barriers. When we attempt to address them without the proper expertise, it can lead to frustration and circular conversations. Don’t you agree?

That said, everyone here would still be happy to discuss how to generate IOIs, analyze specific situations, or advise you on why an IOI attempt may have failed or why a woman might have left. We can provide input on topics like these, but anything deeper would require a different kind of support.

Agreed, looks are subjective. Maybe I'm a 7, maybe I'm not.

You're right when you say a guy who's a 7 on the looks scale will likely get a decent amount of IOIs solely based on the looks. Here's the thing though: My ASD makes it hard to pick up on IOIs. In other words, just because I don't notice very many IOIs, that doesn't necessarily mean I don't get very many IOIs.

So to address the 3 numbered points you listed, there's no real way to assess how I'm doing on point #1.

Point #2 (how to engage when IOIs are received). Even in instances where I manage to pick up on possible IOIs, there are 2 main things holding me back. One, I don't have much experience in getting a woman the traditional way. Two, I'm terrified to act on the possible IOIs (in the event I turn out to be wrong). The fear to act on IOIs is one thing I'm going to my upcoming counseling for.

Point #3 (how to keep a woman). If I manage to make it through steps 1 and 2, this is one thing the forum is able to help me with.

With the problems you listed in your next paragraph, I agree those problems hold me back (and a counselor is better equipped to address those problems). Of those problems, I'd say the phobia of pregnancy holds me back the least.

Even though there's help I can gain from the forum, there are certain pointless circular discussions, I agree. One example of a pointless circular discussion is: Repeatedly telling me to work out, even after I've made it clear I don't want to.

While I stand by my assessment that looks are #1, women do consider all factors. A generic guy with looks above a 6 but nothing on money, status, or personality is going to be a below average tier option for women.

I've pointed out before on the forum that I probably have more in savings than a lot of men who make 120k per year. I don't get why income alone is what a woman judges us on. Even if the 120k/year man makes a decent income, he won't be much of a boyfriend if he spends every cent he earns.

 

[SW15]

I probably have more in savings than a lot of men who make 120k per year. I don't get why income alone is what a woman judges us on. Even if the 120k/year man makes a decent income, he won't be much of a boyfriend if he spends every cent he earns.

In the money variable, both a man's annual salary and his net worth are considered.

Money is more difficult to assess for women than looks. Women seem to have a decent general idea of jobs and their status/what they pay. Women won't necessarily know net worth. One way that women assess money is on possessions. Home and automobile are the two possessions judged the most. A boat can help, but often it doesn't make that much of a difference. A history of having taken good vacations and having good vacation photos/videos on social media/in your phone can help too.

When a woman comes to your place, she'll also be judging your home furnishings/electronics.

Deficiencies in any of these areas can be overcome with upper tier looks, including height 6'0"+.

A hypothetical guy who makes $120,000 a year (not that impressive of an income) but spends a lot will have some possessions that impress women. If his physique is good and he's making $120,000 at a younger age (under 40-45), that might help with seduction. This will vary on a case by case basis.

Point #2 (how to engage when IOIs are received). Even in instances where I manage to pick up on possible IOIs, there are 2 main things holding me back. One, I don't have much experience in getting a woman the traditional way. Two, I'm terrified to act on the possible IOIs (in the event I turn out to be wrong). The fear to act on IOIs is one thing I'm going to my upcoming counseling for.

There are plenty of neurotypicals who don't have much experience getting women through real life methods.

The difference between you and them is that they tend to deal with is issue prior to age 25. They don't deal with it at 33.

My last sentence might be changing a little bit with Gen Z coming up. Gen Z's turning 25 in 2025 were born in 2000 and grew up with a lot more technology than someone born in the mid-1980s. The children born in the mid-1980s grew up with some technology but a different overall tech ecosystem than someone born in 2000.

Plenty of neurotypicals misread possible IOIs all the time. I don't know a neurotypical guy who hasn't had many instances of misreading an IOI. Misreading IOIs is something that happens in the field on a regular basis.

Fixing a lack of experience and misreading IOIs are things that improve with regular approaching in real life.

Repeatedly telling me to work out, even after I've made it clear I don't want to.

There is a ceiling on self-improvement if you don't have big muscles, especially with your under 6'0" height.

In the field, you would have to compensate for a lack of height and a lack of fitness. @BPH has put up a nearly 100 notch count mainly on the strength of his looks (6'0", good facial aesthetics, lower body fat, and good muscle size), though his emotional centeredness does help in his interactions (personality).

It's a challenging to have to compensate on both those variables.

If you choose a path that doesn't involve physique improvement, a lot of women won't give you the time of day. Your field approaches would look much like Zizou from the video below if you approached Cute to Hot looking women. Even a lot of average looking women will ignore and reject average looking men. Rollo Tomassi is well known for saying that average tier women in the 2020s don't desire interactions with average tier men.

You might need to focus on women with subpar looks (overweight, unimpressive facial aesthetics) with your physique in its current form and without other variables (money, status, personality) considered to be strengths.

 

[Gamisch]

While I stand by my assessment that looks are #1, women do consider all factors. A generic guy with looks above a 6 but nothing on money, status, or personality is going to be a below average tier option for women.

Looks go hand in hand with personality.

I know that when I'm depressed I'm a slob and that I don't care about the way I look. But when I drag myself out of that place I care about myself exponentially. Not just the gym, but everything; my house, clothes, garden ect.

It's our personal(ity ) preferences that determine what's important to us; everything related to looks and the way we present ourselves has to do with personality traits.

 

[Gamisch]

Agreed, looks are subjective. Maybe I'm a 7, maybe I'm not.

You're right when you say a guy who's a 7 on the looks scale will likely get a decent amount of IOIs solely based on the looks. Here's the thing though: My ASD makes it hard to pick up on IOIs. In other words, just because I don't notice very many IOIs, that doesn't necessarily mean I don't get very many IOIs.

So to address the 3 numbered points you listed, there's no real way to assess how I'm doing on point #1.

Point #2 (how to engage when IOIs are received). Even in instances where I manage to pick up on possible IOIs, there are 2 main things holding me back. One, I don't have much experience in getting a woman the traditional way. Two, I'm terrified to act on the possible IOIs (in the event I turn out to be wrong). The fear to act on IOIs is one thing I'm going to my upcoming counseling for.

Point #3 (how to keep a woman). If I manage to make it through steps 1 and 2, this is one thing the forum is able to help me with.

With the problems you listed in your next paragraph, I agree those problems hold me back (and a counselor is better equipped to address those problems). Of those problems, I'd say the phobia of pregnancy holds me back the least.

Even though there's help I can gain from the forum, there are certain pointless circular discussions, I agree. One example of a pointless circular discussion is: Repeatedly telling me to work out, even after I've made it clear I don't want to.



I've pointed out before on the forum that I probably have more in savings than a lot of men who make 120k per year. I don't get why income alone is what a woman judges us on. Even if the 120k/year man makes a decent income, he won't be much of a boyfriend if he spends every cent he earns.

You are NOT a 7. Acceptance is the first step towards healing. This is why I say thy guys like you are EXTREMELY arrogant.

You can't even have an honest look in the mirror. You think your a 7 what means you believe that you have some minor flaws and you are nearly perfect. A toxic feminine trait. If you at least would be honest and realistic you would know that hard work is "super necessary " and perhaps even fun because there's so much to gain . But your arrogance keeps you happy at status quo, because you think your own fart smells like an expensive parfum and (un) fortunately women are a ruthless reflection of your TRUE state . You are not insecure, you are arrogant. And your arrogance doesn't understand that women don't want you so you blame it on your fecking ASD.

And as long as you use ASD as your main excuse you will NEVER thrive in life. You use it as a shield , but it's an imagery shield, like the emperor's new clothes . It's only important in your mind and now you basically use to define who you are.

If you've already decided that your ASD is all-consuming then why do you even bother?

 

[GoodMan32]

In the money variable, both a man's annual salary and his net worth are considered.

Money is more difficult to assess for women than looks. Women seem to have a decent general idea of jobs and their status/what they pay. Women won't necessarily know net worth. One way that women assess money is on possessions. Home and automobile are the two possessions judged the most. A boat can help, but often it doesn't make that much of a difference. A history of having taken good vacations and having good vacation photos/videos on social media/in your phone can help too.

When a woman comes to your place, she'll also be judging your home furnishings/electronics.

Deficiencies in any of these areas can be overcome with upper tier looks, including height 6'0"+.

A hypothetical guy who makes $120,000 a year (not that impressive of an income) but spends a lot will have some possessions that impress women. If his physique is good and he's making $120,000 at a younger age (under 40-45), that might help with seduction. This will vary on a case by case basis.



There are plenty of neurotypicals who don't have much experience getting women through real life methods.

The difference between you and them is that they tend to deal with is issue prior to age 25. They don't deal with it at 33.

My last sentence might be changing a little bit with Gen Z coming up. Gen Z's turning 25 in 2025 were born in 2000 and grew up with a lot more technology than someone born in the mid-1980s. The children born in the mid-1980s grew up with some technology but a different overall tech ecosystem than someone born in 2000.

Plenty of neurotypicals misread possible IOIs all the time. I don't know a neurotypical guy who hasn't had many instances of misreading an IOI. Misreading IOIs is something that happens in the field on a regular basis.

Fixing a lack of experience and misreading IOIs are things that improve with regular approaching in real life.



There is a ceiling on self-improvement if you don't have big muscles, especially with your under 6'0" height.

In the field, you would have to compensate for a lack of height and a lack of fitness. @BPH has put up a nearly 100 notch count mainly on the strength of his looks (6'0", good facial aesthetics, lower body fat, and good muscle size), though his emotional centeredness does help in his interactions (personality).

It's a challenging to have to compensate on both those variables.

If you choose a path that doesn't involve physique improvement, a lot of women won't give you the time of day. Your field approaches would look much like Zizou from the video below if you approached Cute to Hot looking women. Even a lot of average looking women will ignore and reject average looking men. Rollo Tomassi is well known for saying that average tier women in the 2020s don't desire interactions with average tier men.

You might need to focus on women with subpar looks (overweight, unimpressive facial aesthetics) with your physique in its current form and without other variables (money, status, personality) considered to be strengths.

I totally believe there are a lot of neurotypicals who have misread IOIs.

The difference, however, is: When acting on (what I thought were) IOIs, my failure rate is 100%.

I don't think there are any neurotypicals who get it wrong 100% of the time.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results. If I were to continue acting on perceived IOIs, even though I've been wrong every single time I've done that, I'd be (by definition) insane.

As for the comment about how a guy like me might need to focus on overweight gals (whose looks are nothing special), good thing I have low standards.

 

[BPH]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

Then go to the gym.

 

[SW15]

If I were to continue acting on perceived IOIs, even though I've been wrong every single time I've done that, I'd be (by definition) insane.

You are definitely misreading IOIs and I wouldn't even know where to begin.

You claim to get IOIs at a rate that isn't realistic for someone with a mid-tier looks level. My sense is that you're more optimistic on what an IOI actually is than what it actually is.

I do not commonly get IOIs. This was something that has been true for me since I turned 35 and it was also true prior to when I turned 35. In all of those years, I have not been overweight and have had good facial aesthetics. I have gotten at least passable haircuts the whole time and I have a full head of hair. I was also on college campuses with a lot of women. I knew less in the way of game/PUA technique then (was just starting to read internet articles about it in undergrad), but I had more exposure to more women on college campuses than as a working person in bigger cities.

By 2012, I had noticed that I was receiving fewer IOIs as compared to 2005. Both of these times were around recent relocations to new cities in my life. This was my late 20s as compared to age 22. My looks had not dropped off that much by the end of my 20s.

What had changed? A bunch of new technology was either introduced or got more popular between 2005 and 2012. Smartphones took off when Apple introduced the iPhone in Summer 2007. All smartphone ownership rates went up significantly between 2007 and 2012. Text messaging and online content on phones took off. Screen time took off. More women also started wearing earbuds/headphones to the gym and on outdoor trails.

I concluded in 2012 that Millennial women were getting poorer at signaling interest to men as a result of technology changes.

In 2025, all these things are still true. Millennial women have aged but not gotten less fussy with what they demand from men. Generation Z women have been more immersed in technology than a lot of Millennial women (especially older Millennials).

I find it difficult to believe that your IOI level is significantly above mine.

I also know how to fish for IOIs better than you. In the common daygame venues, I make strong eye contact and smile at women all the time. I look to see who holds my gaze and who smiles back at me. I then approach those women. My rate of eye contact and smile returns is in the single digits and has been at that level for years.

I have around 25 years of mating environment experience and 20 years+ of active game study experience. There is a good chance that women would rate me as better looking than you are rated.

I will still approach when I don't get IOIs if I am attracted enough. I prefer to approach with IOIs but it doesn't happen enough.

One of the best seducers I know in real life (triple digit notch count) never looked for IOIs in his night game approaches. He is 6'4" though and can rely on his height alone to impress women even if he doesn't get an IOI before opening. He got into an LTR and married so he has stopped actively approaching.

@We_ArE_VeNOM also doesn't give a crap about IOIs, he approaches whenever he wants.

 

[GoodMan32]

You are NOT a 7. Acceptance is the first step towards healing. This is why I say thy guys like you are EXTREMELY arrogant.

You can't even have an honest look in the mirror. You think your a 7 what means you believe that you have some minor flaws and you are nearly perfect. A toxic feminine trait. If you at least would be honest and realistic you would know that hard work is "super necessary " and perhaps even fun because there's so much to gain . But your arrogance keeps you happy at status quo, because you think your own fart smells like an expensive parfum and (un) fortunately women are a ruthless reflection of your TRUE state . You are not insecure, you are arrogant. And your arrogance doesn't understand that women don't want you so you blame it on your fecking ASD.

And as long as you use ASD as your main excuse you will NEVER thrive in life. You use it as a shield , but it's an imagery shield, like the emperor's new clothes . It's only important in your mind and now you basically use to define who you are.

If you've already decided that your ASD is all-consuming then why do you even bother?

As for why I bother?

Because I've had successes with the ladies before, no matter how minimal (which gives me hope)

 

[GoodMan32]

You are definitely misreading IOIs and I wouldn't even know where to begin.

You claim to get IOIs at a rate that isn't realistic for someone with a mid-tier looks level. My sense is that you're more optimistic on what an IOI actually is than what it actually is.

I do not commonly get IOIs. This was something that has been true for me since I turned 35 and it was also true prior to when I turned 35. In all of those years, I have not been overweight and have had good facial aesthetics. I have gotten at least passable haircuts the whole time and I have a full head of hair. I was also on college campuses with a lot of women. I knew less in the way of game/PUA technique then (was just starting to read internet articles about it in undergrad), but I had more exposure to more women on college campuses than as a working person in bigger cities.

By 2012, I had noticed that I was receiving fewer IOIs as compared to 2005. Both of these times were around recent relocations to new cities in my life. This was my late 20s as compared to age 22. My looks had not dropped off that much by the end of my 20s.

What had changed? A bunch of new technology was either introduced or got more popular between 2005 and 2012. Smartphones took off when Apple introduced the iPhone in Summer 2007. All smartphone ownership rates went up significantly between 2007 and 2012. Text messaging and online content on phones took off. Screen time took off. More women also started wearing earbuds/headphones to the gym and on outdoor trails.

I concluded in 2012 that Millennial women were getting poorer at signaling interest to men as a result of technology changes.

In 2025, all these things are still true. Millennial women have aged but not gotten less fussy with what they demand from men. Generation Z women have been more immersed in technology than a lot of Millennial women (especially older Millennials).

I find it difficult to believe that your IOI level is significantly above mine.

I also know how to fish for IOIs better than you. In the common daygame venues, I make strong eye contact and smile at women all the time. I look to see who holds my gaze and who smiles back at me. I then approach those women. My rate of eye contact and smile returns is in the single digits and has been at that level for years.

I have around 25 years of mating environment experience and 20 years+ of active game study experience. There is a good chance that women would rate me as better looking than you are rated.

I will still approach when I don't get IOIs if I am attracted enough. I prefer to approach with IOIs but it doesn't happen enough.

One of the best seducers I know in real life (triple digit notch count) never looked for IOIs in his night game approaches. He is 6'4" though and can rely on his height alone to impress women even if he doesn't get an IOI before opening. He got into an LTR and married so he has stopped actively approaching.

@We_ArE_VeNOM also doesn't give a crap about IOIs, he approaches whenever he wants.

I never said I get a lot of IOIs. All I said was I've been wrong 100% of the time when acting on IOIs. This would suggest I have a hard time reading IOIs, I totally admit that.

I haven't acted on perceived IOIs a whole lot (probably fewer than 20 times). I suppose some might say my sample size is too small to draw conclusions. That being said, there have been a few times when I refused to act on perceived IOIs because I was afraid acting on the IOI might further solidify my 100% misread rate.

 

[Gamisch]

As for why I bother?

Because I've had successes with the ladies before, no matter how minimal (which gives me hope)

Now respond to the other 95% of my post like a real man.