A prime example why even "be a man" advice falls short in the matrix

[iqqi]

First you say this:

He KNOWS he's the catch and that any time a woman spends is a priveledge he grants her. He knows his time is more valuable then hers, and he knows that his value is greater then hers.

Then you say this:

If a woman thinks she is better the me- she can kindly f-uck off, I don't care how hot and smart she THINKS she is; she can't hold a candle to me.

SOMEone needs a dose of humility!

Do you really think a woman of any high character is going to right off the bat think and treat you like you are better than she is... just because!?

If your time and value is so much greater than hers... why are you even trying? Shouldn't you have better things to do then be on some date with such a lowly speciman?

Get off your high horse. The only woman that would be attracted to that is one with mental daddy issues. And hey, there ARE a lot of those... so this way of acting will most certainly work! Have fun with that, though.

When you are ready to get into a healthy relationship with a healthy WOMAN, then start acting like a man. Treat a person how you want to be treated. Have some humility, or you may have some served onto you when you least expect, and it in a worse fashion.

A real man doesn't sit in front of a mirror and tell himself how great his farts smell. You sound like a gay man! And hey, from the iqster to you, "you go, girl!"

Being the prize doesn't mean treating a stranger like sh!t, or assuming they aren't sh!t.

 

[Aenigma]

Do you really think Donald Trump, Brad Pitt or some other high status male would have gone into a hissy fit right there at the table if she did answer it?

Do you think they would sit there while a woman wasted their time for 20 minutes blathering to her friend about pointless crap? 10 minutes? 5 minutes? No, they would just leave- just like Lykis suggests that you do. If they did decide to stay, you can be sure that they would put the verbal smackdown on the woman's ego and manners so that she knew her place relative to his so that it would NEVER happen again.


Hissy fit, in this context, is nothing but a feminine manuplative mecahnism to test how confident a male is in himself and his own behaviors; it's nothing but an attempt to paint his knowledge of his own value, relative to hers, and his boldness in correcting her blantently disrespectful behavior as childish and immature. If he accepts her criticism, it places her in the position of power in the relationship by letting her determine what is accpetable behavior not only for her, but also what is acceptable for him as well (ie not being able to criticize her disrespectful behavior without seeming childish). Its pure shaming language combined with a powerful psychological mechansim- pay no attention to it. A high status alpha male makes up his own mind as to what he considers acceptable behavior, if she dosen't like it she can hit the road. Rest assured though, she won't. A woman will ALWAYS bend before the will of a alpha male, his ego and confidence is the wall against which all her petty mind games and tricks break. An alpha male stands by his own mind and his own value, first and foremost. She is a shell compared to him, and once she realizes this she will become irresistable drawn to him, she will become obsessed with him. She won't be able to help it, it's her submissive/henid nature. (Women who throw themselves at felons and psychopaths, forsaking friends, husbands, and even children, to please the alpha males are the perfect evidence).

 

[Aenigma]

*Cluck, Cluck, Cluck*

Wow, thanks- you just provided the perfect example of feminine mind games to deconstruct for all the guys! Much obliged!

SOMEone needs a dose of humility!

Boom- right off the bat shaming language comibined with a personal attack!

Its designed to attack my ego and think that my personal value is lower then it really is- which raises her value relative to mine; giving her more power.
It also implies that my estimation of my value is false (or that I should not recognize my own value). Which is again designed to lower my own self value estimation.

If your time and value is so much greater than hers... why are you even trying? Shouldn't you have better things to do then be on some date with such a lowly speciman?

Again another personal attack designed to undercut your own sense of ego- ie if you stand by your value, you can't have value because men of high value always have better things to do then what you're doing! (Nevermind that men of high value need to relax as well, and enjoy f-ucking women).

Get off your high horse.

Translation: Stop thinking your special and start groveling! (Ironically, telling someone to get off their high horse implies that they ARE higher then you).

The only woman that would be attracted to that is one with mental daddy issues. And hey, there ARE a lot of those... so this way of acting will most certainly work! Have fun with that, though.

Shaming + Personal attack

When you are ready to get into a healthy relationship with a healthy WOMAN, then start acting like a man.

Redefining what is and is not acceptable behavior based on HER standards. Note how this puts her in a postion of power and lets her dictate the terms of a relationship.

Treat a person how you want to be treated.

Never works with women. Demand a woman treat you the way you deserve to be treated. If she dosen't- show her the door. That's what knowing your value is all about.

Have some humility, or you may have some served onto you when you least expect, and it in a worse fashion.

Translation: Grovel before womankind- or else some sort of vague and completely undefined foggy fate will befall you! Really! I swear!

A real man doesn't sit in front of a mirror and tell himself how great his farts smell. You sound like a gay man! And hey, from the iqster to you, "you go, girl!"

Being the prize doesn't mean treating a stranger like sh!t, or assuming they aren't sh!t.

Reframing of my behavior combined with insults and shaming.


Guys, this is how girls operate. They don't address your behaviors or arguements- it's all emotional manipulation. There was not a single sentence addressing the concepts I outlined on an abstract level, it was all insults, shaming language and reframing. Save this thread and re-read it, its a textbook example of how girls will try to undermine your ego and put themself in a position of power. This is how girls test you, this is the sh!t test gentlemen. If you can recognize and resist their emotional manipulation they'll get moist at the very thought of you.

 

[iqqi]

Get real. (Aenigma)/

What I wrote doesn't just apply to the "don juans of sosuave."

It applies to both men and women.

Would spell it out more for you... maybe later.

 

[AgonyUncle]

I dont get the big deal about a woman taking a call during a date. Jesus, we are hanging out. I dont expect my mates to turn their phones off when we are hanging out. At what point in time would it become acceptable for her to start taking calls?

If she is taking calls non stop, then I see it as a problem. If she has a full blown conversation while im twiddling my thumbs, then its a problem. If she makes a call to friend for some ridiculous reason, then its a problem

Its not a business meeting. Its a date.

 

[MikeYikes122]

So it's the guy's fault huh ? excuses excuses, justification of someones bad behavior ...... he was boring so I was like shyt since the world revolves around me I'm going to take a phone call ....

I had the same thing happen on a second date except it was a text and not a call, after the 3rd text I asked her if she needed a ride or could get a ride home ..the text stopped

was she bored ? who cares I know she was rude and was not going to waste another minute on her ..... That's ok

That's my perogitive.

:rockon:

Three texts in one date? You have to admit man, the problem had to have been with you at least to some extent. A girl who has high IL in a guy isn't going to flip her phone open three times during a date and start texting away.

I'm not coming down on you hard, and I also don't think it's anything to hang your head over. It happens, and you certainly reacted in the correct manner. By the third text message you should have told her the date was over like you did.

Again, nothing to be distraught over, but you have to admit, for a girl to open her phone and text three times during a date, a guy had to have done something to lower her IL.

 

[The Forms]

Its not a business meeting. Its a date.

amen. Thinking of dates in terms of business (you are paying for her undivided attention) is not going to do good things for you. Just like thinking of business in terms of a date isn't going to be good for business. If this is a girl you're on a first date with, surprise surprise, she might not be constantly worried about making one slight move that could offend you. She's just going to be herself, and if you don't like her, you're free to not call her anymore. That's how a healthy girl will approach dating. So instead of seeing if you can find a way to be offended, just spend the date figuring out if you like her or not.

The guy in the video is doing a male version of a sh*t test. Some small, largely insignificant thing happens, and he blows how she acts way out of proportion (this is woman behavior, guys). He takes her answering a phone call (which she mentions is important) moves it out of context and decides that it means something much larger than it really does (that she isn't holding up her end of the bargain, that she doesn't value your time, that she's being disrespectful to you, and as a man you need to grossly over react to save your dignity).

If this is how you react to something this small in the beginning stage of a relationship, the only chick you end up with will likely have zero self confidence. Because any girl who would want to date a man who blows something like this so out of proportion likely has some issues. A good, self respecting woman won't date a guy like this.

Plus, did you see his hair? Come on, is that how a grown man looks? Is that supposed to be peacocking or something?

 

[MikeYikes122]

I haven't read through this thread yet (just got back from a long ass day/night of work). But I'm going to give my opinions regardless.

The point I was trying to make is, there is a disrespectful way to answer your phone during a date and a respectful way to answer your phone during a date. If you can't tell the difference between the two, then you don't have much social sense.

For example, my friend (a pretty big AFC) took a girl from Hooters out on a date. He prized her the entire time, put her on a pedestal and engaged in a lot of behavior where he tried too hard to impress her. He texted me during the date and said "she won't get off the phone". My response to him was to tell her that he didn't take her out so he could watch her talk on the phone the entire time. Naturally, he didn't follow my advice, and he spent the night watching her hanging up and re-opening her phone.

That is kind of an extreme example, but he should have responded like Leykis recommends and gotten up and left.

If a girl's mom or someone of relative importance calls on a date, it is completely within the realm of politeness for her to answer, talk very briefly and say "I am out with someone and can't talk. Can I call you later?" She should then apologize, to which the guy would say "Oh, that's OK".

Maybe iqqi can back me up on this, but I know from going out with girls and being friends with girls that a lot of women, when they go out on dates with guys they don't know, have a friend set up to call them at a certain time to give them an out for a potentially awful date. If you react like the guy in the video when a check-up call happens, you are going to feel like a complete moron. This is also why I said in my first post that it is a guy's fault to an extent if the girl he is out with is talking on her cell phone or texting.

I hope I've made my point a little better now.

 

[AgonyUncle]

1) why would a man go out on a first date for a meal to start?

If I invite someone out for a drink or a meal, I offer to pick up the tab. If I invite someone to play golf with me, I pick up the tab. At the end of the day, man or woman, I have been raised to believe that generosity and manners are not something you do for gain or because you want to impress the person. You do it because you want to.

2) why is it already predetermined that the "man has to pay" for the meal?

1) In the old days when women did not really work, you as a man picked up the bill because you were the only one with a real income. Also, the manners thing like I stated above.

2) Some woman are going to take chances like this. I will always pick up the bill though. I always hope they offer to chip in, yet never accept. If people see that as weak, I dont really care. I dont believe I demonstrate any value by making her pay. I dont expect to get laid because I picked up the bill for the date either.

I think there is a new wave of men trying to reclaim "masculinty" these days. yet are listening to the same guys that peddle short easy answers for cash without teaching the fundamentals of being a man and looking at the bigger picture. In the end you are the same old fool with less money in your pocket, unless you find sosuave.

Not paying for the tab does not make you rmasculine. Over reacting because she did not give you her undivided attention is not masculine. Playing stupid little games is not masculine. Playing to a hardcore set of rules and fundementals is not masculine. **** tests are not masculine (Im not talking about qualifying here)

THESE ARE FEMININE TRAITS.

MM, "game"...its all a load of bull**** at the end of day. You are just painting over the cracks in the wall. If the foundations are shaky, paint is not going to solve the probelm.

 

[Metro3pilot]

but you have to admit, for a girl to open her phone and text three times during a date, a guy had to have done something to lower her IL.

we could beat a dead horse for the next 445 replys ...... I don't take responsibility for anyone's actions but my own....

:rockon:

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

OK, first and foremost this thread has turned into a very nice litmus test for determining the mindset of guys who still subscribe to qualifying themselves to women. 90% of guys (meaning the general AFC population) simply don't have the sack to even attempt this, why? Because men are conditioned from a very early age that it is incumbent upon them to tolerate, what they are told are, the whims and ambiguous behaviors of women at the risk of not being acceptable for her intimacy.

Put simply, if a guy has no other viable options he will tolerate the most fickle of behaviors from a woman - this is the sh!t test. Does he call her the night of or morning after he number closes? No options. Does he put up with her running late for a date? No options. Does he bear with her talking to her girlfriends on the cell phone while at a restaurant? No options. Now I'm sure this will seem like I'm taking it all to an extreme to those of you with a binary way of thinking so let say now, for the record, women do this autonomously, not as some grand premeditated plot to winnow out chumps. In fact most AFCs are all too ready to do the work for them. Stop now for a moment and do a mental assessment of all the behaviors you, as a guy, will put up with from a woman because she represents the potential for sex and intimacy, that you would NEVER tolerate from another male friend. Now think of all the behaviors that you'd consider rude from a potential intimate that you could care less if your buddy did around you. Women, by and large, can and do get away with murder in this respect.

So where do you as a guy draw the line? Even guys with enough balls to actually decline a woman after such an incident he deems rude will ALWAYS doubt themselves about having done so, and be more inclined to reconsider or "give her another chance", because HE is in the necessitous position. Any woman above an HB5.5 will generally, naturally, have more more options than an average man believes he has. The average frustrated chump will always weigh the degree of his tolerance against the degree of his need. This then becomes a habit, then a parctice, and then an ego-investment.

When I started this post I pointed out exactly this litmus test. Why are you offended at this guy's reaction? Granted, I think it could be handled a bit more tactfully, but are you offended because of the reaction or the fact that it seems like throwing away an opportunity? Is it so hard to come by a date for you that expecting a degree of respect from a woman (as evidenced by her behavior) is an after thought? Is your need so desperate that other guys have to point out her behavior to you because you don't even consider it? This video doesn't even portray an actual event; it was demonstrational not situational, but look at the response to even a staging of it from responders here who disagreed with it. And I'm being too serious? I'm over analyzing it, but I'm seeing posts as to how it's an empty restaurant at mid-day and how this should alter the scenario, gimme a break. Is it so out of line because it would put a guy back to his original position of being necessitous?

That's fear of rejection at work. So many guys for so damn long have been walking on eggshells with women for fear that they might not be qualified for even the most mediocre amongst them that it's become a personality trait for them. This would only make them pathetic, but the fact that they'd pass this on to other men, thinking it'll help them, or making it a societal norm is what makes it dangerous.

In my book, this event should never occur. Taking a woman out to dinner for a 1st or 2nd date is inadvisable anyway. Far better to meet up for drinks at a lounge somewhere after 9pm. No safe-dates, no coffee dates, no dinner, no movies, no puppy dogs and no ƒucking ice cream; women KNOW we take them out for a reason and it's not because we're actually interested in how their cat fluffy barfed a hairball up that morning or how things suck at their work. They know what you're after, their intimacy and possibly more AFTER that. So lets all cut the sh!t, OK?

 

[DJDamage]

In my book, this event should never occur. Taking a woman out to dinner for a 1st or 2nd date is inadvisable anyway. Far better to meet up for drinks at a lounge somewhere after 9pm. No safe-dates, no coffee dates, no dinner, no movies, no puppy dogs and no ƒucking ice cream; women KNOW we take them out for a reason and it's not because we're actually interested in how their cat fluffy barfed a hairball up that morning or how things suck at their work. They know what you're after, their intimacy and possibly more AFTER that. So lets all cut the sh!t, OK?

:yes:

 

[reset]

semi off topic conversation--

This still confuses me. 90% of guys are AFCs yet they all think they are different from other men (jerks) so they will act like 90% of all men in order to demonstrate that they are different from other men. The only way this is possible if you were literally brainwashed into thinking all men are jerks and therefore you'll be different. I'm starting to question how much of my behaviors about myself and women are actually hypnotically induced reactions from watching too many tv sitcoms growing up.

Once when I was with the BPD we were walking and she said "oh no! I forgot my cell phone. It could be someone IMPORTANT!" (classy lady). So even without a cell she managed to use it in an insulting way.

Anyway--My repsonse would now be "hey let's turn the cell phones off so we can talk uninterrupted".

Done.

 

[Mr. Me]

I don't get the big deal about a woman taking a call during a date. Jesus, we are hanging out. I dont expect my mates to turn their phones off when we are hanging out...

Its not a business meeting. Its a date.

That's the point, that it's a date. And in a date, that's an event wherein you get to know the other person and are evaluating them for long term potential, which is what I get they're doing in this video since it's a dinner date. They're not just hanging out as buddies, and when it's in that looking down the road context, you're looking for red flags. You don't do that with your mates because you're not looking to have a committed one on one love relationship with them as your partner.

In effect, when she talks excessively on her cell phone while on such a date with you, that's disrespecting your time. It's the equivalent of putting you on hold.

If they converse for a while as you wait and wait, it's rude because that's supposed to be your time together. You made time out of your life for this and she has to reciprocate in kind, showing that she values you and your time as well and treats you with consideration. And when you're evaluating someone for LT potential, you can't accept rudeness.

And that's what this is, not about IL so much, but as assessing their character. A woman can have a high IL but still be an ill-mannered person.

Do they treat you respectfully? Do they get off the phone quickly, not keeping you on "hold" long at all, and apologize? And, as I say, if you then politely ask them to turn off their phone as you have turned off your phone, do they balk or agree?

If a girl's mom or someone of relative importance calls on a date, it is completely within the realm of politeness for her to answer, talk very briefly and say "I am out with someone and can't talk. Can I call you later?" She should then apologize, to which the guy would say "Oh, that's OK".

Saying "That's OK" is what you guys would call matrix training, no? Truth is, the behavior is NOT okay, we shouldn't tell people it is, as then we've not set a boundary and they'll do it again and perhaps worse. We instead could respond with some direction, setting that boundary, and I hate to sound like a broken record here, yet isn't this the spot where we would say to them, "Hey, look, why don't we turn off our phones for now?"

You need to set in stone what the parameters of dating you are, because that will forever set the foundation of any subsequent relationship that springs out of it. You can't change the terms later.

Plus, did you see his hair? Come on, is that how a grown man looks?

I think he has a bad time on most of his dates and has been pulling his hair out.

 

[bigjohnson]

It depends on what her body language is and what the call is about.

If it's one of her girlfriends wanting to chit-chat and she allows it to go on more than a few seconds without begging off and resuming the date, then I'd have no issue excusing myself permanently.

But it could be a call from her mother letting her know that her father is fine but has been admitted to the hospital with chest pains and they are observing him overnight. Completely different thing.

 

[wjh]

Taking a woman out to dinner for a 1st or 2nd date is inadvisable anyway. Far better to meet up for drinks at a lounge somewhere after 9pm. No safe-dates, no coffee dates, no dinner, no movies, no puppy dogs and no ƒucking ice cream; women KNOW we take them out for a reason and it's not because we're actually interested in how their cat fluffy barfed a hairball up that morning or how things suck at their work. They know what you're after, their intimacy and possibly more AFTER that.

Exactly. And that is why his "reaction" is incredibly tactless. If she picked up her phone, assuming it was very important (for real), and he acted that way, it shows me his AFC expectations. He shouldn't have been there in the first place.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

This still confuses me. 90% of guys are AFCs yet they all think they are different from other men (jerks) so they will act like 90% of all men in order to demonstrate that they are different from other men. The only way this is possible if you were literally brainwashed into thinking all men are jerks and therefore you'll be different. I'm starting to question how much of my behaviors about myself and women are actually hypnotically induced reactions from watching too many tv sitcoms growing up.

Your interpretation here is exactly why so many guys reject the basis of the principles of being a DJ. That's not a cut on you, in fact I think you're right, but for the wrong reason. When we refer to an AFC's socialization and aculturation as a kind of Brainwashing it sounds far fetched; as if we would be so lacking in critcal thought that we'd fail to see ourselves manipulated so. No one wants to be called stupid, and it's not brainwashing that cause us to think this way, it's an inborn desire to need to be perceived as unique. It's the "not-like-other-guys" dynamic combined with men's natural tendency to use a deductive reasoning in pretty much everything we do. The AFC reasoning is that he'll stand out from the rest of the herd by doing what a woman says she wants and doing the opposite of what the Jerk BF did that nonetheless gets her to keep coming back for more. Again, it's completely deductive and rational, not brainwashing.

This is exactly why picking up and leaving after a cell phone incident, not calling immediately after a number close, or intentionally being a challenge seems counterintuitive to an AFC. Really any behavior that would endanger the viability of his one and only option at that time is counterintuitive.

If it's one of her girlfriends wanting to chit-chat and she allows it to go on more than a few seconds without begging off and resuming the date, then I'd have no issue excusing myself permanently.

But it could be a call from her mother letting her know that her father is fine but has been admitted to the hospital with chest pains and they are observing him overnight.

Which do you think is overwhelmingly the most likey scenario? I hear this all the time; "what if it's her sick grandmother calling and she needs some chicken soup? Boy, then you'd reaaaaalllly be a big jerk then." It's fear that prompts this thinking.

This is now considered rude because it has become the rule that this is an indication of disinterest. How pissed off do most women get when they think a man's not listening to her? 'Men don't listen' is a feminine cliché that they're all to ready to complain to their girlfriends about, but let a man even try to expect a woman's undistracted attention under the premise of a date and he's a whiney baby or a chauvinist.

 

[reset]

Thanks Rollo I'm going to stew on that for awhile. At the same time I believe that much of the "all men are dogs" stuff we can't help but have ingested growing up has been internalized so that we are forced to behave in a way that is unnatural to our masculine impulses, and if you have a scarcity mindset (poor self image) then you're forced into doing a "reverse-peacock" as Interceptor alluded to a while back, basically trying to be the dominant male in the situation by doing exactly the opposite of what works and wondering why she always tells you about the sex she just had.

Just trying to get this through my tv sitcom saturated skull. :woo:

Tell me if I'm still off.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

At the same time I believe that much of the "all men are dogs" stuff we can't help but have ingested growing up has been internalized so that we are forced to behave in a way that is unnatural to our masculine impulses,..

Actually you're going to behave in ways that will always accomodate your masculine impulse. Whether or not you'll allow a woman, the media, religion, society or your family to make you feel ashamed or flawed in doing so is up to you.

 

[reset]

Right. I guess if you feel flawed or ashamed you're more susceptible to that stuff, which I was. Plenty of guys clearly didn't get affected by it.