A Misconception about Marriage

[azanon]

How about teaching them how to be self sufficient? To understand how the system works and fend for themselves. To teach them the skill of self sufficiency which they can pass down through many generations.

If you are active in your child's life by not just buying their love but teaching them how to be productive adults, they will be more than anxious to go to university on their own using the skills that you taught them. The thing that makes a boy feel most like a man is his ability to take care of himself and if he's good, to do even better than his old man. Nowadays this even holds true for young women.

This isn't the industrial age anymore, successful families don't stick together in this manner. They're too busy forging their own path. On the flip side, unsuccessful families need to stick together in such a way as to take care of one another. This is possibly why there are parents counting on their children to take care of them in their own age. It will probably be easy if their kids move back home with mom and dad after graduation because they don't know how to find a job.

Why does it have to be either, or? I plan on teaching them to be productive adults and helping them pay a portion of tuition fees that are literally through the roof. For my one child, i currently have a modest 100/month going into a stock 529 fund. Something that I hardly notice, but if you calculate 10-12% return over 18 years in a tax sheltered account, you're talking about some serious money.

Some of these 22 year olds are starting out life with MASSIVE debt. That isnt a life lesson. That's droping a huge cinder block on top of their heads. Dont you think making good grades, and the early OTHER hard knocks of life are more than enough. They certainly were for me and I like to think i'm pretty smart!

I know what a family is like where each man (and woman) is out for themselves. That's my wife's family. Folks, its just sad. I feel so bad for her. My family? Think Norman Rockwell paintings. The irony is that because we have so many people to lean on, we actually rarely have to do it.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Why does it have to be either, or?

You tell me, I'm not the one that said "...what comes around goes around."

Besides, the kids that have a ton of debt that they can not control were just never taught how to manage finances. Good debt isn't bad, most of it you can at least write off the interest anyway. But if they weren't taught those simple things it would be moot anyway, right?

 

[azanon]

You tell me, I'm not the one that said "...what comes around goes around."

Besides, the kids that have a ton of debt that they can not control were just never taught how to manage finances. Good debt isn't bad, most of it you can at least write off the interest anyway. But if they weren't taught those simple things it would be moot anyway, right?

You accuse me of going off topic, yet you clearly have issues with changing the subject. I'll help you refocus. Why cant you 1. teach them life lessons AND 2. help with something that causes a massive amount of money too. Since it wont be obvious to you, that was a rhetorical question. The "what comes around goes around" is a reference to the kind of treatment you are going to get if you ever need financial help from your family, or when you get old.

There is no such thing as good debt. There is bad and worse. You can learn how to take credit on deductible interest without having a 60K dollar loan. The term "good debt" is only used when one's only options are just not taking the debt at all or taking the debt to accomplish something. Either scenario is far inferior to actually HAVING the money!

I'm not proposing that a parent pay everything, but a parent that wont help at all is pathetic IMO. I think of them as deadbeat parents. My wife has one.

Francisco, what do you think 529 plans and Coverdell plans are for? Why were they created?

 

[kyphan]

I'm 26 and grew up in a household where I learned how to be independant at a young age. My parents took away my "chores allowance" when I was 10 or 11, at which point I had started two seasonal businesses: mow lawns and shovel driveways. I got so good at mowing lawns in the neighborhood that I was able to make my parents pay me more, otherwise our lawn was a waste of time! I had a job when I was 16 and paid for car insurance on a car I did not even own; my college graduation present was a car (that was as old as me). In college I'd pay my father back for my car insurance every summer when I had a full-time job. I lived with my father when my parents split. My dad began dating again quickly, which meant I had to learn how to cook for real if I wanted anything more than instant food. Not that I had a rough life, but I learned how to live and survive.

Then I graduate college.

I walked out with $15K in loans and since I took a sales job I needed to replace my dying decade-old car (my high school graduation car died on me halfway through college). I moved to a city and my car insurance spiked. Suddenly I realized why so many people graduated college and ended up back home: it costs way too much for a man with an entry-level job to live out there. My savings were slowly depleted, and while I do not live paycheck to paycheck it has been far harder than I expected. If I had not had any assistance in paying for college I would have still made it somehow, but it was definitely hard those first two years out of school. Now I'm on the upswing, thankfully.

Azanon, I applaud you for finding a way to help your children get through college financially. I really do support you, because I know how much it meant to me to be able to go where I wanted to.

Francisco, I admire you for finding your own way through college. I think it's incredible what you did.

MY POINT: I feel you can bring you kids up in a way that makes them responsible for their own actions and lives, even if you pay for their college education. My parents supported me in everything I did, but I never was given a free pass. There is a crucial balance that needs to be established, and I really hope every one of you, if you have kids, can find that balance.

 

[Latinoman]

Kyphan...considering what you did. And how you succeed and how you value the TRUE value of $$$ and hard work.

Would you get into a $50K debt (from your retirement) in order to pay for your children college education?

I strongly believe that when kids take things for granted (specially $$$), then they try much less. Heck, they won't even try hard enough to find the RIGHT scholarships nor ways of saving $$$ to their parents. But when that $$$ comes from THEM (kids)...then they will do whatever possible to find the appropriate help.

If my kids graduate from college...and do well...my gift could them (depending on how I am economically) COULD be to paid for their school loans (as long as they match their education cost and not the type of loans people get in order to have extra $$$ in their pockets). But that is something that I would NEVER tell them. By not telling them...it force them to be efficient with their time (time is $$$), their grades (good grades open the doors to better jobs and consequently paying their debts), and their motivation to find the best scholarships.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...There is no such thing as good debt.

From this statement alone it is obvious why you feel that you must gift money to your children. It's apparent that you don't understand the concept of using other people's money (OPM) to your advantage. OPM is the simple method that banks use themselves to stay profitable and individuals who use the same concept with their finances also become profitable. It's the parents with this lack of knowledge that makes it difficult for their children to live self sufficiently.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Francisco, I admire you for finding your own way through college. I think it's incredible what you did...

Thanks, but teaching your children goes well beyond just being able to pay for college. My step daughter graduated from college last year and the first thing she did was buy herself a home before starting grad school (which is already paid for); she's only 22. She also owns her own car free and clear. It's seven or eight years old but she bought it outright so no car note.

What I'm getting at is that there are tons of people out there talking about how difficult it is to get a education now as opposed to 10 or 20 years ago. Let's pretend that's true, wouldn't it be most advantageous if you teach your children how to be successful by managing their finances in a manner that they will be able to support themselves and the families that they eventually have?

I can not think of a reason not to teach you children how to be able to support themselves, to support their families, to not be dependent on working tons of overtime to make ends meet at to be available to their spouses and children on a regular basis. To not be afraid that Social Security won't be available when they retire. Hell, why not teach them how to retire 15 or 20 years before everyone one else?

If more parents did this, we wouldn't be so financially bad off in this country. Plus I believe couples would have a better chance of staying married since they would be able to spend more time together without having nearly as many monetary problems.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...If my kids graduate from college...and do well...my gift could them (depending on how I am economically) COULD be to paid for their school loans (as long as they match their education cost and not the type of loans people get in order to have extra $$$ in their pockets). But that is something that I would NEVER tell them. By not telling them...it force them to be efficient with their time (time is $$$), their grades (good grades open the doors to better jobs and consequently paying their debts), and their motivation to find the best scholarships.

Y'know, I hardly ever hear about parents expecting (rather demanding) their kids to get good grades. It is what they learn that does open more doors for them. They definitely put more effort into their endeavors when they have to pony up with their own resources. Through it all the accomplishment is a huge boost to their self esteem. It's kind of like how a farmer feels after his first harvest looking upon the bounty that he was able to grow by his own hand.

 

[kyphan]

In response to Latinoman and Francisco:

My parents had to approve of my college choices, in a sense. I received scholarships and grants that covered more than half the total cost of each year, and my loans each year were about as much as my parents paid out of pocket. If the cost was too high with a school then I either had to foot the difference or not go, simple as that. Neither put themselves in a position where they had to draw from their retirement funds. In fact my mom bought a new car before I started college and right after my sister finished a year after me - both with CASH. Mind you, both my sister and I graduated with extremely good grades, worked part-time during school, and worked full-time during the summers, all of which was expected of us; it was so ingrained in us that we never questioned it, either. We understood our parents were contributing financially what they could and no more. Those were the rules.

My parents never taught me how to do much more than spend less than I earned (my last gf helped me develop a few bad habits with money, which are now gone). I'm personally learning how to make a lot more money, invest wisely, and "retire" far younger than they imagine. Both my parents think I'm nuts when I tell them this, but my best friend knows I'll do it. Thing is, most people do not understand how to do this and the information never gets passed on to the majority.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

In response to Latinoman and Francisco:

My parents had to approve of my college choices, in a sense. I received scholarships and grants that covered more than half the total cost of each year, and my loans each year were about as much as my parents paid out of pocket. If the cost was too high with a school then I either had to foot the difference or not go, simple as that. Neither put themselves in a position where they had to draw from their retirement funds. In fact my mom bought a new car before I started college and right after my sister finished a year after me - both with CASH. Mind you, both my sister and I graduated with extremely good grades, worked part-time during school, and worked full-time during the summers, all of which was expected of us; it was so ingrained in us that we never questioned it, either. We understood our parents were contributing financially what they could and no more. Those were the rules.

My parents never taught me how to do much more than spend less than I earned (my last gf helped me develop a few bad habits with money, which are now gone). I'm personally learning how to make a lot more money, invest wisely, and "retire" far younger than they imagine. Both my parents think I'm nuts when I tell them this, but my best friend knows I'll do it. Thing is, most people do not understand how to do this and the information never gets passed on to the majority.

It's good that you were able to take on at least some of your college costs, you should be proud of yourself. But you hit upon the root of the problem, the majority of parents (mine included) don't teach their children how to prepare for college or how to truly be self sufficient.

The thing is that it's not based on loop holes or hidden tricks, so it can't be said that you need to be in some secret society to learn it. You just need to be able to understand how money, the economy and financial systems truly works. Luckily most of the information can be found it books you can buy online, your local bookstore or even find in your local library.

Learning how not to overspend is good but it's still the "middle class" way of self sufficiency. The chances of becoming wealthy via those means is slim. True self sufficiency takes advantage of the thing that made the US a dominant force in economical markets, the ability to make money, the power of compounding interest and the power of ownership. It's the difference between being given a fish, learning how to fish or owning the rights to the lake containing the fish and the shop which sells fishing supplies.

Congratulations on deciding to step outside the ideals which hold back many Americans. It definitely takes a bit more work because it goes against what many people are comfortable with or what they had been taught in the past. The unfortunate thing is those things aren't nearly as effective in this new era as they were after the depression 70 odd years ago. Can you imagine the difference in mindset we have from those who lived in the 1930's?

 

[kyphan]

*snip*QUOTE]

Yes, it does take a completely different mindset and idea of how to make money in life. I've always leaned towards being entrepreneurial, it simply took re-evaluating my college path to realize that's what I wanted to do with my immediate future. So I majored in it. And I took a sales job, like all the books said. After some ups and downs I'm now running/building a small company. While my share of the pie is small, it's a chance to learn from people who have built numerous successful businesses instead of just studying it in books. I'll still make mine in the end, it's what I do with that which will determine how quickly I "retire."

(I'll never retire, of course. Such a horrid fate!)

 

[azanon]

From this statement alone it is obvious why you feel that you must gift money to your children. It's apparent that you don't understand the concept of using other people's money (OPM) to your advantage. OPM is the simple method that banks use themselves to stay profitable and individuals who use the same concept with their finances also become profitable. It's the parents with this lack of knowledge that makes it difficult for their children to live self sufficiently.

> If its so apparent that i dont understand how to use a loan to my advantage, then why do i intentionally hold one of my wife's student loans valued at just under 10K dollars, at only an interest rate of 3.5% and instead of paying it off, i invest it in the stock market earning 10%+?
You and RT run your mouth accusing me of things that just aren't true.

>If you think you can gain more value using a low interest loan, than a parent can using the equilivant of an IRA (529 plan or coverdell), YOU have no concept of money. YOU'RE the one waisting a tremendous opportunity at your child's expense.

>So you'd honestly prefer having to go into debt to pay for school than to have it paid for? You're asinine argument, Francisco, is that its better to not have help! Maybe my son will say that to me before he graduates, so that i can spend that 529 plan on a new boat instead, lol.

I'm relatively sure my son will prefer that I help him pay for college. I might as well ask though since i've extrapolated his account to be worth approximately 65K by the time he graduates! And yeah, that wont fully pay for it, but it should be at least 30% or so, and as much as 50%. The rest he can cover with other means.

I do realize this sort of thing comes down to personal choice. But that being said, I look at my little one, and, honestly, i cant even comprehend not doing everything i can to get him off to a great start in life. He's counting on me, and I be damned if i'm going to let him down.

 

[Latinoman]

Based on observation...

My experience is that 7-8 out of 10 students which parents paid for their college...literally wasted their time. Some even finished their degrees 1 or 2 years later than the typical.

For the same token...9 out of 10 students that had to pay for their own college...worked VERY HARD for their degree and in the most efficient way possible (timewise and $ wise).

I rather have my children working very hard for their degree...and then AFTER they succeed...pay for their loans or part of it. Heck, it is like refunding their $$$ for their accomplishments.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I do realize this sort of thing comes down to personal choice. But that being said, I look at my little one, and, honestly, i cant even comprehend not doing everything i can to get him off to a great start in life. He's counting on me, and I be damned if i'm going to let him down.

This statement shows (and has shown in the past) that your posts in this forum serves as a justification for your actions; I've said it and others have said it. That fine though, it lets the rest of us know that attempting to show you other ways which could be beneficial (be it with women or any other subject) would be a waste of effort.

 

[azanon]

This statement shows (and has shown in the past) that your posts in this forum serves as a justification for your actions; I've said it and others have said it. That fine though, it lets the rest of us know that attempting to show you other ways which could be beneficial (be it with women or any other subject) would be a waste of effort.

I'm entertainted that you even think i have to justify helping out my son financially on something as expensive as college.

You're going to let your kid bear all of the costs of something as expensive as college, and you think its my actions that needs justification? Hilarious

 

[azanon]

Based on observation...

My experience is that 7-8 out of 10 students which parents paid for their college...literally wasted their time. Some even finished their degrees 1 or 2 years later than the typical.

For the same token...9 out of 10 students that had to pay for their own college...worked VERY HARD for their degree and in the most efficient way possible (timewise and $ wise).

I rather have my children working very hard for their degree...and then AFTER they succeed...pay for their loans or part of it. Heck, it is like refunding their $$$ for their accomplishments.

Just hope your children dont marry someone like me who has to take on those loans you refused to help on, because you'll never get to see the grandchildren unless its you that's driving to me. And even then, don't expect kindness. I'm not as forgiving of it as she was. You guys who never were helped don't know any better.

Karma's a b****

IMO, it seems the need to love your parent(s) is greater than the need to hold them accountable for something they should be accountable for.

 

[azanon]

I rather have my children working very hard for their degree...and then AFTER they succeed...pay for their loans or part of it. Heck, it is like refunding their $$$ for their accomplishments.

I'm not using a trust like a Coverdell, i'm using a 529 plan. In short, its my money but just tax advantaged.

Rest assured, if he starts flunking out, I have myself a windfall. So, on the contrary, having the money there in an account should be powerful leverage. No good grades, no money. See, isn't that simple?

Regardless, if my 100/month only serves the purpose of ensuring my son won't GI bill,..... its worth it. Because I will make it crystall clear to him if he doesnt go to college or some other form of higher learning, its my money.

 

[Desdinova]

Wow, this thread has really mutated. Let me put in my 2 cents about college...

I had to find my own way through college as well. My dad has promised time and time again to help me financially, but I know he speaks a lot of bull5hit and I quit listening to him a long time ago. He has never paid one cent toward my schooling. I found my own ways to get through college.

Now, when the time comes for my kids to go through college, I probably won't pay for them either. Once they turn 18, they have to decide what they're going to do with their lives. I won't be kicking them out at 18, but I won't be holding their hand through life anymore. They also will NOT be able to rely on me to pay for all their crap. If they're not in school, they'll have to pay rent. If they decide to go to college, I won't charge them rent, but I won't pay for their schooling either.

What I'd prefer to do is give them a chunk of money when they're adults and see what they do with it. They could use it to pay off their college loans, to put a down payment on a house, or they could just spend it on crap. They will reap what they sew with that money.

What I keep on seeing is parents who let their kids get away with anything they want. "Mom, I didn't pay last month's rent because I bought a new video game system with a bunch of games. Can you help me out?" If my kids did that to me, I'd probably just sit there and laugh at them. Believe it or not, I even have friends who resent their parents because of this very reason. I can't blame the parents who don't support their kids' bad spending habits.

I agree 100% with teaching a child to be self-sufficient because mom and dad aren't going to be around forever to support him / her.

 

[azanon]

misc

On teaching kids to be self-sufficient, I think we all agree on that point; naturally. Its only the manner that we want to go about that, that we differ.

To be real, i'm well aware this is actually a divided issue even the experts dont agree on. Ive read articles at common sides like msn, cnn, where they have to be careful about what they say, and the sum total is you'll get people in both camps. Its actually about a 50/50 split too.

Desinova's first long paragraph caught my attention though: "I had to find my own way through college as well. My dad has promised time and time again to help me financially, but I know he speaks a lot of bull5hit and I quit listening to him a long time ago. He has never paid one cent toward my schooling. I found my own ways to get through college."

You see that? My son will never think that about me. Desinova went on to say he probably wont do it either, yet when he reflected on what his dad did, that was his thought.

I just want to know that I helped in more ways than just knowledge when it comes to education. That's what feels right for me, but it might not feel right for someone else. So i say lets agree to disagree.

And yeah, the thread is way off topic, but this particular line of discussion was someone else's doing.

Being real though? Just be aware guys that 18 years from now, your average public college, 4-year institution is going to run you 150K or more. At least give it a few thoughts before you just presume to let your offspring bear the full burden. That's a lot of money.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...
I rather have my children working very hard for their degree...and then AFTER they succeed...pay for their loans or part of it. Heck, it is like refunding their $$$ for their accomplishments.

Besides, that's how the world works. When you get a job you typically have to pay your dues by putting in a couple of weeks worth of work before getting paid. They achieve a couple of weeks worth of work, they get paid; not the other way around.