A frustrating position to be in

[BeTheChange]

Dealing with a plate, who on paper is probably one of the best girls I’ve been with. HB9, smart, great conversation, fun to be around, good family, finances not an issue, etc. She’s also a semi-professional salsa dancer with a phenomenal body doing a STEM PhD on a scholarship.

The problem? Massively fluctuating interest. There was a four month gap between our first and second date, even though we fvcked on the first - me texting intermittently to arrange dates, with little success. Obviously riding the c0ck carousel. Fvcked again on the second. Third date last week was ok. She almost didn’t come back saying she had to be up early. Didn’t let it phase me and pushed on with an amused smile. Got the lay. Still saw it as a red flag though. Suggested somewhere for a fourth date and she gave me that “sounds interesting, will do if I’m free” text.

Now I could sit here and “blame the market”, but that’s nonsense. Put the ego aside and the truth is easy to see. My value (or her perception of my value) is just not high enough. She sees me as a sport fvck. A fun distraction. But one which is not so difficult to replace. Combine that with her age (23) and the fact she’s just moved to the city, both our demanding schedules and the issue of us both travelling over summer…well it makes for an unstable plate.

She had a bf throughout university so never went through the whole “experimental” phase. Looks like she is making up for lost time as we were recently talking about how she wants to get with a woman to see how it feels and also how she’d be down for a MFF (or MMF) threesome with me. Not going to lie, I was actually a little disappointed as girls don't really talk this way with men they view as potential bf material. Or am I just being a b*tch?!!

She knows about some of my other plates, including the Dubai girl. Doesn't care. Asked to see some pictures of my plates who might be interested in "sharing love". Showed her some nudes. She's definitely seeing other people.

Now I don't necessarily even desire a relationship. But I like the idea of women wanting to be in relationships with me.

It’s somewhat annoying that she doesn’t see me as high value enough to try and lock down or even date me consistently but as always the solution is simple.

Long term: Improve

And in the meantime:

Set aside the ego.

Spin plates.

 

[resilient]

You sound like you need a drink man...

You have plates as you say, yet I get the drift from your post that she likes the freedom and the attention she's getting at 23 (which is at her SMV peak as a female, no?). You're frustrated that she doesn't see your SMV as being high enough of equivalent to her own. You're right to set aside the ego. Practice detachment and let her chase you. If she thinks she can do better, let her go, and find plate(s) that see themselves on the same playing field as you and respect what you have to offer.

 

[fastlife]

Now I could sit here and “blame the market”, but that’s nonsense. Put the ego aside and the truth is easy to see. My value (or her perception of my value) is just not high enough. She sees me as a sport fvck. A fun distraction.

Looks like she is making up for lost time as we were recently talking about how she wants to get with a woman to see how it feels and also how she’d be down for a MFF (or MMF) threesome with me. Not going to lie, I was actually a little disappointed as girls don't really talk this way with men they view as potential bf material. Or am I just being a b*tch?!!

She knows about some of my other plates, including the Dubai girl. Doesn't care. Asked to see some pictures of my plates who might be interested in "sharing love". Showed her some nudes. She's definitely seeing other people.

Now I don't necessarily even desire a relationship. But I like the idea of women wanting to be in relationships with me.

It’s somewhat annoying that she doesn’t see me as high value enough to try and lock down or even date me consistently but as always the solution is simple.

Lol. OR she sees you as 'too high value'--I think it was Pook, later, when he was losing it a little, who wrote (approximately), “Once you get too good with women, they only see you as a walking dildo." Basically, your attainability is super, super low. People don't invest in competing for prizes they don't think they even have the slightest chance of winning. Like would you race Usain Bolt? Or if you did would you pull up early and try to turn the whole thing into a joke?

However, the problem is that part of her hypergamy demands that she sleeps with you at least occasionally to perhaps access those good genes. But emotionally invest? No. That'd be retarded.

Right now, she's a very stable plate in that she won't introduce instability into your life--your ego might though. You could qualify her super heavily and pretend you're falling for her a little--but that would be disingenuous (I'm still a little bit of a moralist) and (for practical purposes) could introduce instability & drama to your dating life. It's probably too late to set frames for her to be a nonexclusive, emotionally invested plate--but even then, that's a tightrope that is super tough to navigate with all but the most high self esteem girls.

So really the issue I see here is Your Ego vs. Your Self-Esteem: Your default assumption is that you aren't enough (low self-esteem). And then you're currently reacting to the need for validation (your ego is dangerously close to getting you enmeshed in a situation you don't even WANT lol).

This isn't even about her, bro. It's all on you--I won't tell you how you should manage this situation or what lesson you should gain from it, just be on the lookout for one. All the best.

 

[BeTheChange]

Lol. OR she sees you as 'too high value'--I think it was Pook, later, when he was losing it a little, who wrote (approximately), “Once you get too good with women, they only see you as a walking dildo." Basically, your attainability is super, super low. People don't invest in competing for prizes they don't think they even have the slightest chance of winning. Like would you race Usain Bolt? Or if you did would you pull up early and try to turn the whole thing into a joke?

However, the problem is that part of her hypergamy demands that she sleeps with you at least occasionally to perhaps access those good genes. But emotionally invest? No. That'd be retarded.

Right now, she's a very stable plate in that she won't introduce instability into your life--your ego might though. You could qualify her super heavily and pretend you're falling for her a little--but that would be disingenuous (I'm still a little bit of a moralist) and (for practical purposes) could introduce instability & drama to your dating life. It's probably too late to set frames for her to be a nonexclusive, emotionally invested plate--but even then, that's a tightrope that is super tough to navigate with all but the most high self esteem girls.

So really the issue I see here is Your Ego vs. Your Self-Esteem: Your default assumption is that you aren't enough (low self-esteem). And then you're currently reacting to the need for validation (your ego is dangerously close to getting you enmeshed in a situation you don't even WANT lol).

This isn't even about her, bro. It's all on you--I won't tell you how you should manage this situation or what lesson you should gain from it, just be on the lookout for one. All the best.

Good analysis and a viewpoint I never do considered. You might be right. Never considered the fact that her lack of emotional investment actually makes her stable.

Also helps to explain why I've had a fair few ONS with women who never bothered to ask or accept a second date and why a lot of my plates seem to drop off once they sense commitment isn't on the table

I don't think I have low self esteem. I'm pretty happy with my life and my self. What I do have is a less than ideally sized ego and a desire to win...these are both things that should be channelled in a more productive way.

 

[btownbuck2012]

Lol. OR she sees you as 'too high value'--I think it was Pook, later, when he was losing it a little, who wrote (approximately), “Once you get too good with women, they only see you as a walking dildo." Basically, your attainability is super, super low. People don't invest in competing for prizes they don't think they even have the slightest chance of winning. Like would you race Usain Bolt? Or if you did would you pull up early and try to turn the whole thing into a joke?

However, the problem is that part of her hypergamy demands that she sleeps with you at least occasionally to perhaps access those good genes. But emotionally invest? No. That'd be retarded.

Right now, she's a very stable plate in that she won't introduce instability into your life--your ego might though. You could qualify her super heavily and pretend you're falling for her a little--but that would be disingenuous (I'm still a little bit of a moralist) and (for practical purposes) could introduce instability & drama to your dating life. It's probably too late to set frames for her to be a nonexclusive, emotionally invested plate--but even then, that's a tightrope that is super tough to navigate with all but the most high self esteem girls.

So really the issue I see here is Your Ego vs. Your Self-Esteem: Your default assumption is that you aren't enough (low self-esteem). And then you're currently reacting to the need for validation (your ego is dangerously close to getting you enmeshed in a situation you don't even WANT lol).

This isn't even about her, bro. It's all on you--I won't tell you how you should manage this situation or what lesson you should gain from it, just be on the lookout for one. All the best.

It'd be awesome if you could start a thread on this specific topic. I think it would make for some really interesting quality conversation.

 

[fastlife]

Also helps to explain why I've had a fair few ONS with women who never bothered to ask or accept a second date and why a lot of my plates seem to drop off once they sense commitment isn't on the table

Yup. Sex is the highest currency 99% of women have to offer--investing that up front is a hail marry for play for them. When that investment isn't recognized in any meaningful way, especially for the hottest girls, that's a huge threat to their self-concept. You'll be rationalized as something that never happened (which can be good or bad, depending on your goals).

High self esteem girls know they have other qualities beyond their beauty/pvssy and will stick around a lot longer; but eventually even they will drop off.

Part of the game is letting these ones go--especially if you know you won't be able to offer them what they want. BUT what you can do to increase your shelf life is to offer genuine compliments/qualification: Wow, you're amazing (right after great sex). I love the way you dressed last night (the day after). Remembering the perfume you wore the night we met (random text). If I were any other guy, you'd have me wrapped around your finger.

Obviously these things are to be used sparingly and usually when a girl is on good behavior. You can also frame things to make your noncommital-ness OK for her. I.e. If I were any other guy, you'd have me wrapped around your finger, BUT I still have so much life I have to experience. Trust me, it's not you--you're awesome--but sometimes when I get too close to a girl I just feel the need to pull away. And I don't want us to get too close and hurt you. Things along those lines (there's a reason those tropes are in every female catered romance). But again, if you don't know when you have to let them go, you'll cause tons of trauma/inconvenience for you and her.

And as far as what I mean by self-esteem: When you genuinely are providing yourself with all the validation you need, the actions/words of other people don't register. Your table's already full and you're just offering seats to people around you since you want to have a bombazz dinner party; but plenty of other people are waiting to join your party. Ego & self-esteem are inversely related in a lot of ways. Some of those impulses can be super productive when redirected towards other aspects of your life (like you mentioned)--but inter-socially they almost always cause problems.

It'd be awesome if you could start a thread on this specific topic. I think it would make for some really interesting quality conversation.

I will if I have time later in the week. Definitely something I've had plenty of experience with. Touched on it a little here: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/threads/dont-try-so-hard.237744/

 

[BeTheChange]

Low quality

Surprised you're still latching on to this binary position. Disqualifies practically all women who are still single by 21.

And given my ex was a 19 year old virgin when we met I'm really beginning to think this is a poor barometer for a woman's overall character within reason. Each to their own though.

Big difference between a few random dates and sleeping with dozens of guys. Generally you can tell the difference between those type of girls quite easily.

 

[BeExcellent]

Dealing with a plate, who on paper is probably one of the best girls I’ve been with. HB9, smart, great conversation, fun to be around, good family, finances not an issue, etc. She’s also a semi-professional salsa dancer with a phenomenal body doing a STEM PhD on a scholarship

I think you hit it right on the head here:

It’s somewhat annoying that she doesn’t see me as high value enough to try and lock down or even date me consistently

Let me play devil's advocate for a second. I was this sort of girl at that age. The kind of abundance a woman like this has is unreal because EVERYONE wants her. I mean EVERYONE. Her PhD advisor, her barista at the coffee shop, men she dances with, men in class with her, EVERYONE. She's hot, she's fun, she's smart, she's used to men falling into her lap All. The. Time. She is going to have a list of things in her mind as her criteria in a boyfriend and she is going to have the ability to screen for every single thing on that list because she has that much choice. The problem I see for you is twofold:

1. You do not know what her mental checklist contains nor do you know what order those priorities are in. If for example it contains "Doctoral Level Education" at or near the top and you don't have doctoral education level, then you are going to eventually get discarded for someone who does. I am utterly serious about this.

2. Look at some of the assumptions you are making. In the second excerpt from your OP you are annoyed that she isn't trying to lock you down. You should not be the least bit surprised about this. This is the kind of woman who never needs to chase after a man in any way shape or form. If you don't pursue (notice I do not say chase or supplicate), she is going to have so many other great choices that she'll just simply fill her time with men who take the initiative. You'll simply get left behind. This is a woman who knows she is pretty and smart and all that other stuff. She has high self esteem. If her family is quality they have probably raised her that men approach and take the lead. In dance you expect the man to lead as well. So that means you as the man MUST lead (show initiative/be concrete and direct) or she's going to blow you off for someone who is this way (or worse see right through you and think based on that she's out of your league).

One other thing to consider very honestly is how was the sex? Was it great? If she is a semi professional salsa dancer great sex is important to her. Sensuality is important to her or she would not invest so much time dancing. Were you willing to be completely open and sensual and connect through the sexual experience? Were you interested in seeing to it that she got as much pleasure out of the experience as possible? Selfishness by the man in bed is a huge turn-off to a sensual woman. Just pounding away is boring to a sensual woman. Such a woman needs a more in depth experience. The fact that she has mentioned 3-somes to you suggets to me that you are not, on your own, giving her enough sexually to satisfy her. If you were she would not be so open about that. She would want you to herself. I'm not saying this to be an ass hat at all. I'm just simply suggesting that you be very very honest with yourself about how the experience you gave her went from HER perspective.

Really think about that and answer that question honestly. I am an elite level amateur dancer. I chose to marry my ex husband because he met ALL my criteria at the time and the criteria at the top of the list was sexiness/sexuality/intimacy. No way I wanted to be stuck in a marriage with someone who was not sexy in my opinion or worse someone who was selfish in bed or the very worst, bad in bed. The idea of a crappy lover was horrible to me. I also wanted someone who I could enjoy my passion for dance WITH. So that meant I wanted a sexy great dancer as part of my must have criteria.

I wouldn't automatically assume it's the carosel either. She is very busy with studies (a doctoral degree is ridiculously time consuming, ESPECIALLY in a lab intensive science) and she may be going on dates, but that may not mean lots of sex with different people.

My final thought is take a look at the second excerpt I posted...notice your expectation that you set out by saying:

or even date me consistently

You are expressing disappointment that A.) She isn't chasing after you...and B.) She isn't meeting the mental paradigm of your expectation. Therefore you are disappointed because she is not following the script you have set forth. Can you see that? You must remove your expectations to remove your frustration.

This is not the sort of low self esteem woman most men on SS are talking about. Look up the "How To Spot A Unicorn" thread and read the first posts. If you can get past the personal back and forth on that thread I think it might offer you some insight into the way a woman like this behaves and how her behavior will differ from the typical woman. I'd paste it but I don't know how. But search should pull it right up.

 

[Milano]

I think you hit it right on the head here:



Let me play devil's advocate for a second. I was this sort of girl at that age. The kind of abundance a woman like this has is unreal because EVERYONE wants her. I mean EVERYONE. Her PhD advisor, her barista at the coffee shop, men she dances with, men in class with her, EVERYONE. She's hot, she's fun, she's smart, she's used to men falling into her lap All. The. Time. She is going to have a list of things in her mind as her criteria in a boyfriend and she is going to have the ability to screen for every single thing on that list because she has that much choice. The problem I see for you is twofold:

1. You do not know what her mental checklist contains nor do you know what order those priorities are in. If for example it contains "Doctoral Level Education" at or near the top and you don't have doctoral education level, then you are going to eventually get discarded for someone who does. I am utterly serious about this.

2. Look at some of the assumptions you are making. In the second excerpt from your OP you are annoyed that she isn't trying to lock you down. You should not be the least bit surprised about this. This is the kind of woman who never needs to chase after a man in any way shape or form. If you don't pursue (notice I do not say chase or supplicate), she is going to have so many other great choices that she'll just simply fill her time with men who take the initiative. You'll simply get left behind. This is a woman who knows she is pretty and smart and all that other stuff. She has high self esteem. If her family is quality they have probably raised her that men approach and take the lead. In dance you expect the man to lead as well. So that means you as the man MUST lead (show initiative/be concrete and direct) or she's going to blow you off for someone who is this way (or worse see right through you and think based on that she's out of your league).

One other thing to consider very honestly is how was the sex? Was it great? If she is a semi professional salsa dancer great sex is important to her. Sensuality is important to her or she would not invest so much time dancing. Were you willing to be completely open and sensual and connect through the sexual experience? Were you interested in seeing to it that she got as much pleasure out of the experience as possible? Selfishness by the man in bed is a huge turn-off to a sensual woman. Just pounding away is boring to a sensual woman. Such a woman needs a more in depth experience. The fact that she has mentioned 3-somes to you suggets to me that you are not, on your own, giving her enough sexually to satisfy her. If you were she would not be so open about that. She would want you to herself. I'm not saying this to be an ass hat at all. I'm just simply suggesting that you be very very honest with yourself about how the experience you gave her went from HER perspective.

Really think about that and answer that question honestly. I am an elite level amateur dancer. I chose to marry my ex husband because he met ALL my criteria at the time and the criteria at the top of the list was sexiness/sexuality/intimacy. No way I wanted to be stuck in a marriage with someone who was not sexy in my opinion or worse someone who was selfish in bed or the very worst, bad in bed. The idea of a crappy lover was horrible to me. I also wanted someone who I could enjoy my passion for dance WITH. So that meant I wanted a sexy great dancer as part of my must have criteria.

I wouldn't automatically assume it's the carosel either. She is very busy with studies (a doctoral degree is ridiculously time consuming, ESPECIALLY in a lab intensive science) and she may be going on dates, but that may not mean lots of sex with different people.

My final thought is take a look at the second excerpt I posted...notice your expectation that you set out by saying:



You are expressing disappointment that A.) She isn't chasing after you...and B.) She isn't meeting the mental paradigm of your expectation. Therefore you are disappointed because she is not following the script you have set forth. Can you see that? You must remove your expectations to remove your frustration.

This is not the sort of low self esteem woman most men on SS are talking about. Look up the "How To Spot A Unicorn" thread and read the first posts. If you can get past the personal back and forth on that thread I think it might offer you some insight into the way a woman like this behaves and how her behavior will differ from the typical woman. I'd paste it but I don't know how. But search should pull it right up.

Basically, what you are saying is get a mediocre woman who is older cause this is way too much work lol.

Its hard to fathom the length men will go to in order to get a woman like this, and when they get her for a while, she still has so many possibilities and options behind his back that she will blame him and give him drama because he cant live up to be every hot men that is chasing her at the same time. The ego is a sad thing, and the desperation among men is pathetic.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

I agree with B.E. Everyone is kissing her azz. Everyone wants to buy her things, they will qualify themselves to her constantly. The average man simply cannot fathom what day to day reality is like for this type of woman. On the up side, it actually sounds like you've handled yourself fairly well so far.

Remember that you bring as much to the table as her and keep a ZFG attitude.

Just relax, don't over think too much and enjoy the moments you have with her.

-Augustus-

 

[BeTheChange]

I think you hit it right on the head here:



Let me play devil's advocate for a second. I was this sort of girl at that age. The kind of abundance a woman like this has is unreal because EVERYONE wants her. I mean EVERYONE. Her PhD advisor, her barista at the coffee shop, men she dances with, men in class with her, EVERYONE. She's hot, she's fun, she's smart, she's used to men falling into her lap All. The. Time. She is going to have a list of things in her mind as her criteria in a boyfriend and she is going to have the ability to screen for every single thing on that list because she has that much choice. The problem I see for you is twofold:

1. You do not know what her mental checklist contains nor do you know what order those priorities are in. If for example it contains "Doctoral Level Education" at or near the top and you don't have doctoral education level, then you are going to eventually get discarded for someone who does. I am utterly serious about this.

2. Look at some of the assumptions you are making. In the second excerpt from your OP you are annoyed that she isn't trying to lock you down. You should not be the least bit surprised about this. This is the kind of woman who never needs to chase after a man in any way shape or form. If you don't pursue (notice I do not say chase or supplicate), she is going to have so many other great choices that she'll just simply fill her time with men who take the initiative. You'll simply get left behind. This is a woman who knows she is pretty and smart and all that other stuff. She has high self esteem. If her family is quality they have probably raised her that men approach and take the lead. In dance you expect the man to lead as well. So that means you as the man MUST lead (show initiative/be concrete and direct) or she's going to blow you off for someone who is this way (or worse see right through you and think based on that she's out of your league).

One other thing to consider very honestly is how was the sex? Was it great? If she is a semi professional salsa dancer great sex is important to her. Sensuality is important to her or she would not invest so much time dancing. Were you willing to be completely open and sensual and connect through the sexual experience? Were you interested in seeing to it that she got as much pleasure out of the experience as possible? Selfishness by the man in bed is a huge turn-off to a sensual woman. Just pounding away is boring to a sensual woman. Such a woman needs a more in depth experience. The fact that she has mentioned 3-somes to you suggets to me that you are not, on your own, giving her enough sexually to satisfy her. If you were she would not be so open about that. She would want you to herself. I'm not saying this to be an ass hat at all. I'm just simply suggesting that you be very very honest with yourself about how the experience you gave her went from HER perspective.

Really think about that and answer that question honestly. I am an elite level amateur dancer. I chose to marry my ex husband because he met ALL my criteria at the time and the criteria at the top of the list was sexiness/sexuality/intimacy. No way I wanted to be stuck in a marriage with someone who was not sexy in my opinion or worse someone who was selfish in bed or the very worst, bad in bed. The idea of a crappy lover was horrible to me. I also wanted someone who I could enjoy my passion for dance WITH. So that meant I wanted a sexy great dancer as part of my must have criteria.

I wouldn't automatically assume it's the carosel either. She is very busy with studies (a doctoral degree is ridiculously time consuming, ESPECIALLY in a lab intensive science) and she may be going on dates, but that may not mean lots of sex with different people.

My final thought is take a look at the second excerpt I posted...notice your expectation that you set out by saying:



You are expressing disappointment that A.) She isn't chasing after you...and B.) She isn't meeting the mental paradigm of your expectation. Therefore you are disappointed because she is not following the script you have set forth. Can you see that? You must remove your expectations to remove your frustration.

This is not the sort of low self esteem woman most men on SS are talking about. Look up the "How To Spot A Unicorn" thread and read the first posts. If you can get past the personal back and forth on that thread I think it might offer you some insight into the way a woman like this behaves and how her behavior will differ from the typical woman. I'd paste it but I don't know how. But search should pull it right up.

Two remarkably different posts from yourself and fastlife. Both have merit and I’ll address some of your questions.

Two of our three dates have involved salsa. I had to initiate several times for the first date, to the point where a posters here would flat out assume zero interest (e.g. she would flake due to lab work / supervisor meetings), so you may be right here about the need to pursue. I will try and find the unicorn thread.

The first date we went dancing, when I’d just started learning and wasn’t very good…I definitely gave her the impression, prior to the date, that I was better than I actually was. Which might partially explain the four-month gap between the first and second date! Second date was the night before Dubai. She made a solid effort to please me in the bedroom. Perhaps because I was going away.

Third date I mentioned an event I was interested in going to, and she countered with dinner and salsa. Being indifferent I accepted, which takes us to present day…In fact, I’ve seen pictures of her ex-bf (her and I are Facebook friends) and he is average looking in my opinion, but by her accounts, an incredible salsa dancer. She pretty much lives and breathes salsa, if she is not in the lab.

She has also asked me to watch her group perform several times. I didn’t go to any of the events as we haven’t known each other long and I had no interest feeling like a groupie. Plus it was never convenient. She’s performing next month. If we’re still sleeping together I will attend.

I get the impression that she wants me to be good at salsa, but I’m learning at my own pace. I’m critical of myself when we dance. She tells me I’m amazing and making great progress. One lesson a week is about all I can muster and I’m not changing that for anyone (you know about my financial goals so I'm sure you'll understand). So yes, you might be right. On the other hand, it could be her “interest” in me may have been reignited by the knowledge that perhaps she’s unlikely to find someone with my positive qualities (good looking, gym-rat body, intelligent, ambitious, relatively successful financially, etc,) who also happens to be an excellent salsa dancer. Who knows...Not worth speculating over.

You’re right about the c0ck carousel to be fair. When I was doing my masters dissertation I spent an entire summer locked in the library/my bedroom so could be the case. This woman is being paid by one of the world’s top universities just to be there…sometimes I forget this just because she is so down to earth.

I should also mention that she was incredibly responsive to any messages I sent, while out in Dubai and even initiated until she saw my snapchat stories with the Dubai girl, then she went a bit cold…so there’s that too.

She's not dumb. She knows I spin plates.

The disappointment issue is because I haven’t really encountered this. I haven't found myself in a situation where a woman displays some interest, while being generally indifferent to whether she sees me or not. I’ve had this when the woman didn’t know me, but never after we’ve already had sex a few times.


I tend to find myself in the following:

· Women chase from the outset

· I pursue initially, but women chase after I’ve fvcked them a few times (these tend to be plates I’m interested in sexually but wouldn’t consider as relationship material)

· Women reject me straight away

· Women reject me after I’ve soft nexted them (i.e. relegated them to FWB status)


In fact this is the first girl since my ex gf in 2012 who I have:

1. Slept with
2. Continued to date after sleeping with her
3. Would consider for an LTR

Not since my ex have I met a woman that ticked all three boxes.

But my ex gf wanted a boyfriend, and by the time she asked for exclusivity I was almost expecting it.

Overall there are so many different variables to consider that it’s not worth me speculating over, except to potentially learn a lesson from the experience.

Going forward, I’m going to pursue unambiguously, without supplicating – thus addressing the issues mentioned in fastlife’s posts, about her potentially thinking I am too out of reach.

I’m also going to make sure she gets the D good and well (addressing some of BE’s points).

And of course,…no expectations other than having a fun time. Anything else is just setting myself up for frustration.

Other factors (e.g. her mental checklist) are out of my hands and not worth sweating over. I’m not getting a PhD any time soon (although I do have a masters in Economics…just saying haha!), nor am I going to become an expert salsa dancer. I know there’s some major pedestalizing occurring in my mind at present so at this stage it’s better to just have fun and hope for the best while dealing with things one can control. If she’s interested she’s interested. And if she’s not…well at least I can say I gave it a shot and wasn’t an assh0le about it.

 

[BeExcellent]

In all honesty you are doing fine @BeTheChange and I think she does like you. On the way to supper. I'll share some thoughts tomorrow.

Welcome to being a high value man.

 

[fastlife]

@BeTheChange

A couple things that stand out to me:

• Definitely don’t be afraid to pursue what you want, unabashedly. I probably pursue more than any guy on SS--but it’s always from a place of abundance & priority on the best comparative outcome (never from desperation; never being the past year at least lol). If I’m not hanging with a girl, then I can either keep trying for a while with the possibility of seeing her (best possible outcome) or the possibility that she doesn’t come around, in which case I’m already not hanging with her anyway.
• Is this girl really relationship material, or does she have certain qualifications that appeal to your ego? Does a PhD, in and of itself, indicate that she’d be a good fit for what you want from a partner?
• Is it possible that your ’desire’ for her is driven by scarcity? I.E. by limiting supply, is she increasing demand, perhaps artificially from what you’d naturally feel for her? Hot girls run game, too Now, with girls, they have to be able to manipulate you at least a little bit to stick around in any longterm capacity (their biology demands that security, from you or someone else). But generally I focus on girls who use productive/positive (for me) manipulation to increase investment--doing nice things for me/buying me sh1t/cooking, cleaning, etc./easing my work life/fulfilling my sexual needs--than girls who use negative (for me) manipulation--trying to make me jealous/ignoring my texts/withholding sex/basically doing anything to induce scarcity. Most girls have found one strategy or the other generally more effective (usually based on what type of validation & reinforcement she’d receive from her parents, and in particular, her father)--and then the really dangerous girls are the ones who consistently work both angles (usually these are girls we’d consider personality disordered).
• Salsa is a sh1t test. That’s a qualification hoop for you to jump through--ignore it. I’d go out dancing with her & purposefully fvck up a step or two just to not play into that frame. Nuking that frame by telling girls I work fast food or whatever else has shown me, consistently, that ’the checklist’ goes right out the window as soon as you decide it’s not important.
• As valuable as @BeExcellent’s insights & contributions to this forum are, she’s still projecting her qualities onto this girl that none of us have met yet (basic solipsism); we don’t have enough to extrapolate exactly how quality the girl in question is, since surface-level behavior is often less important than the elements of character driving it. Additionally, she’s no longer viewing her past experiences or the experiences of other women from the same biological demands driving them. Even the craziest wh0re you’ve ever met will be a very different woman--with a very different perception of the Sexual Market Place than she had when she was actively maneuvering it at a younger age--once she’s in her 40’s or 50’s and will probably be a sweet old lady by the time she’s 80. I love you @BeExcellent but just keeping it real Feel free to correct me, but if you went back however many decades with your current mindset, the owner of a nightclub probably wouldn’t hold the same appeal that it did to you then. Or if you had had a Snapchat when you were 13 and any number of guys sliding in your DMs on Insta & FB & maybe a Tinder account your college roomie pressured you into downloading when you were bored and single, then how you perceived & navigated the SMP would’ve looked drastically differently than how it did when you were the same age of the girl in question. Certainly not invalidating your advice, and you could be right on the money, but statistically speaking the factors driving the behaviors of this particular girl.
• Which brings me to my final point. @BeTheChange, do you not see any red flags regarding the girl in the OP? I see a couple that would be disqualifications for me, personally. But having been on the ground level in similar situations, I chose not to see them at the time--luckily, even with me giving up a little frame & trying to bridge the chasms, those situations fell apart & I don’t regret them because I got more time than I would’ve otherwise with some awesome girls, even if they wouldn’t have been good fits for my longterm emotional investment.

 

[BeTheChange]

@BeTheChange

A couple things that stand out to me:

• Definitely don’t be afraid to pursue what you want, unabashedly. I probably pursue more than any guy on SS--but it’s always from a place of abundance & priority on the best comparative outcome (never from desperation; never being the past year at least lol). If I’m not hanging with a girl, then I can either keep trying for a while with the possibility of seeing her (best possible outcome) or the possibility that she doesn’t come around, in which case I’m already not hanging with her anyway.
• Is this girl really relationship material, or does she have certain qualifications that appeal to your ego? Does a PhD, in and of itself, indicate that she’d be a good fit for what you want from a partner?
• Is it possible that your ’desire’ for her is driven by scarcity? I.E. by limiting supply, is she increasing demand, perhaps artificially from what you’d naturally feel for her? Hot girls run game, too Now, with girls, they have to be able to manipulate you at least a little bit to stick around in any longterm capacity (their biology demands that security, from you or someone else). But generally I focus on girls who use productive/positive (for me) manipulation to increase investment--doing nice things for me/buying me sh1t/cooking, cleaning, etc./easing my work life/fulfilling my sexual needs--than girls who use negative (for me) manipulation--trying to make me jealous/ignoring my texts/withholding sex/basically doing anything to induce scarcity. Most girls have found one strategy or the other generally more effective (usually based on what type of validation & reinforcement she’d receive from her parents, and in particular, her father)--and then the really dangerous girls are the ones who consistently work both angles (usually these are girls we’d consider personality disordered).
• Salsa is a sh1t test. That’s a qualification hoop for you to jump through--ignore it. I’d go out dancing with her & purposefully fvck up a step or two just to not play into that frame. Nuking that frame by telling girls I work fast food or whatever else has shown me, consistently, that ’the checklist’ goes right out the window as soon as you decide it’s not important.
• As valuable as @BeExcellent’s insights & contributions to this forum are, she’s still projecting her qualities onto this girl that none of us have met yet (basic solipsism); we don’t have enough to extrapolate exactly how quality the girl in question is, since surface-level behavior is often less important than the elements of character driving it. Additionally, she’s no longer viewing her past experiences or the experiences of other women from the same biological demands driving them. Even the craziest wh0re you’ve ever met will be a very different woman--with a very different perception of the Sexual Market Place than she had when she was actively maneuvering it at a younger age--once she’s in her 40’s or 50’s and will probably be a sweet old lady by the time she’s 80. I love you @BeExcellent but just keeping it real Feel free to correct me, but if you went back however many decades with your current mindset, the owner of a nightclub probably wouldn’t hold the same appeal that it did to you then. Or if you had had a Snapchat when you were 13 and any number of guys sliding in your DMs on Insta & FB & maybe a Tinder account your college roomie pressured you into downloading when you were bored and single, then how you perceived & navigated the SMP would’ve looked drastically differently than how it did when you were the same age of the girl in question. Certainly not invalidating your advice, and you could be right on the money, but statistically speaking the factors driving the behaviors of this particular girl.
• Which brings me to my final point. @BeTheChange, do you not see any red flags regarding the girl in the OP? I see a couple that would be disqualifications for me, personally. But having been on the ground level in similar situations, I chose not to see them at the time--luckily, even with me giving up a little frame & trying to bridge the chasms, those situations fell apart & I don’t regret them because I got more time than I would’ve otherwise with some awesome girls, even if they wouldn’t have been good fits for my longterm emotional investment.

Had a day to mull it over.

Scarcity not a major issue in reality. Have a few active plates. Definitely see your point on her scarcity though...would she be as "valuable" if her attention weren't so limited? Probably not. Pedastalised this salsa chick due to the checklist I have as an "ideal". Objectively she isn't THAT much better than other girls I could get with, especially in the salsa scene.

Ego is what has driven me this far. As much as I appreciate BeExcellent's advise I think you are right on this one fastlife.

Just got out of a salsa event that I invited her to a few hours earlier. She didn't even respond to my message. Ironically I had the best dances ever since I started lesrning.

I don't care how "quality" and "in demand" she is. Am I beggar that I need to qualify myself to this chick? Her disinterest is a massive turn-off. 700,800 hours in this life. Better to focus on more fruitful prospects.

It's a shame Poon King still isn't around.

"Women who don't like me are women who don't matter"

- PK

Pour a glass for a fallen homie.

 

[BeExcellent]

I don't have any quarrel with anything @fastlife points out. We all project our own perspective and experience through our comments.

BeTheChange is the only one interacting live with the woman in question and obviously he will make his own decisions about how to handle this girl.

I will say this is the type of woman who I have seen make a great long term partner so long as the man keeps the leadership role and remains true to his own masculine core & all that entails. I don't see BTC having issues there. He's got strong inner game going from what I observe around SS.

 

[guru1000]

BTC, you do realize you got this chick on a pedestal.

1) Very hard to "game" 9s without other 9s in your trajectory;

2) Next time you see her, come Gordon Gecco style; that is, tailored suit and tie, "having come from or going to a business meeting." I get the red carpet treatment from 99% of hot women just based on my professional attire--and thus presence--alone.

3) Pop a Viagra. Next time you see her, rail her to Kingdom Come. At least 3-4 times like a savage. Ensure she will never forget who did that to her. I am not kidding.

Simple, but that's all you really need.

Now help me with my problem, I have two girls who both think they have Saturday night with me: (1) Runway model, (2) Instagram model, 100k+ followers. Whom should I choose?

...
Ya, life sucks

 

[BeExcellent]

I would make a proclamation like this after no less than 1.5 years of dating.

I'm just relating what I see in any number of healthy, happy, satisfied marriages between a quality man and quality woman.

I agree one should vet for a while...I think at least two years.

And for fast life's question...I'd still find a nightclub owner appealing. It was about him being a fellow business person and entrepreneur. It was never about the cache of "nightclub owner". That's a false assumption. I had doctors, lawyers and other successful professionals to choose from. Nightlife happens to be something I enjoy and always have so that was a natural choice for me. It still would be. I might back my ex one day in a bar or club venture. Time will tell.

 

[TheMonkeyKing]

Very hard to "game" 9s without other 9s in your trajectory

Pretty much my first thought.

The top 20% of the marketplace is hyper-competitive, though not in the typical measure of extraneous value. Intangible measures of personality, machismo, charisma, social prowess and entertainment value become more important. The opinion of other women matters more than earning money (for example), because, well, everyone is earning money. Everyone is driving a super car, owns a yacht, is in super good shape and wears 1000$£ suits. You'll need a USP. You need other people, especially women.

The times I am out in the company 8/10s+, other hot women are paying a lot of attention. Particularly noticeable are service staff, who are either much more shy and submissive, or extra friendly and/or make extended conversation.

The only way to negate your dependence and (possibly) her complacency is to give her stiff competition, in a manner of speaking. She might seem like an irreplaceable dime piece, but there are another million out there just like her. If you can pull her, you can pull them too.

 

[Bingo-Player]

seems to me she's given you sex twice for very little effort on your part

i wouldnt be complaning

if you're bothered about her fvcking other dudes it just means you arent fvcking enough chicks

just take it as it comes with this one

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

Had a day to mull it over.

Scarcity not a major issue in reality. Have a few active plates. Definitely see your point on her scarcity though...would she be as "valuable" if her attention weren't so limited? Probably not. Pedastalised this salsa chick due to the checklist I have as an "ideal". Objectively she isn't THAT much better than other girls I could get with, especially in the salsa scene.

Ego is what has driven me this far. As much as I appreciate BeExcellent's advise I think you are right on this one fastlife.

Just got out of a salsa event that I invited her to a few hours earlier. She didn't even respond to my message. Ironically I had the best dances ever since I started lesrning.

I don't care how "quality" and "in demand" she is. Am I beggar that I need to qualify myself to this chick? Her disinterest is a massive turn-off. 700,800 hours in this life. Better to focus on more fruitful prospects.

It's a shame Poon King still isn't around.

"Women who don't like me are women who don't matter"

- PK

Pour a glass for a fallen homie.

That's exactly the attitude you need. ZFG and the fact that you bring as much or more to the table as any woman.

And, I don't know about you, but, a woman's PHD doesn't contribute anything to boner factor for me...

Great quote from PK.

-Augustus-