5 years of seduction, looking for confrontation ad improvement

[chinaski]

hi,
i'm almost new here, i made a thread a couple of years ago about an ex gf, but nothing much than that,
i read a couple of seduction forums almost on the regular and i find that the advice here is spot on,
at this moment in my life i'm looking to get even better than i was, and there are some key areas that i need to work on,
in this thread i want to discuss my story and i'm open to every mature suggestion to improve and become a better dj, and, most important, a better man.

when i began this journey, in the autumn of 2011, i was a 29 years old boy with some past relationships, not much, i had 5 or 6 women since i'm sexually active (17yo) ,but it's pretty normal for guy at that age here. nothing out of the ordinary

i started reading pua material, like most of us, to get back with an ex.
obviously it didn't work at the time, but i used that experience to become a better seducer
from 2011 onwards i had about 4 or 5 women per year, very few of them were ons, most of them were short relationships of three-four months, and i met about 70% of them through internet dating,
i overcome a lot of issues and became, in my opinion, very good at the first stages of relationships but not so good on medium to long term outcome. most of the time i dumped the girls because i felt that i could get even better ones (and i was right), but four of them dumped me and i went through very painful break-ups.

so, i'm try to learn something new
what i've found with years of practice is that the initial relationship il most based on how you present yourself, and i'm very charming and funny, but when you dig a little more in the relationship i can say that the "real" you, or better, some hidden parts of you (because i really am what i am in the initial phase, but there's more than that and not most of it is good) starts to come out. the more you want to be emotionally invested, the more you open up yourself, the more women saw your insecurities and fears (or incongruence to the first image that you presented), the more they start to distance themselves and that inevitably leads to a break-up

that's the pattern that i'm seeing, and it means that somethings needs to be addressed

so, there are the key points that i've noticed and that i want to talk about:

first, most of pua material focus on the initial attraction phase. most of the tricks, the mindset, how do you carry yourself, what you choose to show is taught for getting as much sex as possible. now, we all can agree that sex can be awesome but at a certain point you need more than that. in my position and in my life right now i'm looking for a meaningful relationship, maybe not marriage and children but someone that brings lightness and good experiences in my life. that leads to point two:

i think that if you wanna have a good girl beside you, first you need to screen and to ditch out immediately the bad ones, and second you need to be able to mantain attraction, or, in this case, do not slip up. for doing this you need a strong frame and a strong identity, a strong self-image. you need to put masculine energy in the relationship and not be overwhelmed by emotions. and here is where i fail.

i love my parents but i was basically raised by women. i'm often overwhelmed by emotions. that can be a good thing, for me it leads to creativity, for example i write. but with women, show too much emotional side, or better unchecked emotional side of you is bad. and no one ever taught me this thing before (and i mean before now, this month).
add to that that i don't have a strong father figure in my family and often i need to replace my dad's father figure with them.

so, what i do wrong with women that i really like, and that eventually dump me, is this:

i open up too early,
i show them my emotions and my past, the processed emotions that are good to share, and the unprocessed ones that show my fears and my insecurities,
i became a little dependent when i share those things because i trust the other person and i tend to lean on them emotionally,
i text too much, and worse i often have meaningful discussion by text (not because i'm afraid to talk with the other person, just because in that moment i'm texting and for me it was a good idea to talk of important topics via text. after all i write often and i like this way of communicate, but in this case it's wrong)


i think that all those things needs to be addressed. i have to learn how to control my emotions (your erroneous zone is a good book to start), i need to avoid very personal topics for the first months of the relationship and introduce them gradually during the course of time, i need to stop texting so much and be a little unpredictable and most important i need to build my masculine identity, self respect and a set of principles that i need to stick to.

because it's important to learn how to appear with women, but it's more important to cultivate your inner game, that may even lead to automate outer game, and it's a more general thing, once you get this thing right i think you can face most situations searching the answer in yourself rather than asking advice for the single event on an internet forum.

so: what are your thoughts? where can i start? have you discovered the same things?

ps. sorry for not so perfect english, it's not my primary language

 

[Yewki]

so: what are your thoughts? where can i start? have you discovered the same things?

Honestly I think the biggest thing you need to change is your dependence on girls for happiness. Your entire post is written from the perspective of what you can do to keep her... apparently the girl is a coveted prize that you'll go above and beyond to win

Your problems of texting too much, opening up too much, being too emotionally invested, etc would resolve if you were to change this

 

[Tictac]

It's tempting to read everything you can find when you're trying to learn something. One effect of that is to end up with too much information to take in, sort, process and use. And there is a ton of stuff just in this site much less on the web.

If what you describe is accurate, if I were you I'd start with Corey Wayne's book and out everything (except reading here) aside for a while. Nothing is perfect, Wayne's book included. I think for you, it would be a big help.

 

[chinaski]

Honestly I think the biggest thing you need to change is your dependence on girls for happiness. Your entire post is written from the perspective of what you can do to keep her... apparently the girl is a coveted prize that you'll go above and beyond to win

Your problems of texting too much, opening up too much, being too emotionally invested, etc would resolve if you were to change this

i open too much and share a lot of me because i want a partner that deeply understands me and give me the affection that i need and i haven't had in the past during very, very, very difficult moments.

but i understand that is my problem and that i shouldn't project this on my partner, especially if new. but it comes out.

this is one thing that i must work on. in some way i'd like a partner for travel and discover the world, and just have experiences together, after all what's the meaning of happiness if you don't share moments?

it's hard to be enough for yourself and not depend on others for happiness and it takes great effort to reach that mentality, but i'm working on it. i don't think that most men do this, too.

any advice about this?

 

[Yewki]

i open too much and share a lot of me because i want a partner that deeply understands me and give me the affection that i need...

any advice about this?

If you can't be happy by yourself, you will not find long term happiness with anyone

I think the reason you prioritize the attention and validation of another is because you don't believe you can be happy by yourself

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

i open too much and share a lot of me because i want a partner that deeply understands me and give me the affection that i need and i haven't had in the past during very, very, very difficult moments.

but i understand that is my problem and that i shouldn't project this on my partner, especially if new. but it comes out.

this is one thing that i must work on. in some way i'd like a partner for travel and discover the world, and just have experiences together, after all what's the meaning of happiness if you don't share moments?

it's hard to be enough for yourself and not depend on others for happiness and it takes great effort to reach that mentality, but i'm working on it. i don't think that most men do this, too.

any advice about this?

I myself am like this. I yearn for affection and emotional understanding like you, but there's something that I keep reminding myself of. Remember this: you, as a man, are alone in this world. And because of this, you need to be tough and you need to be strong. She should be the one opening up to you, not vice versa.

You still will need to show a little bit more about the inner you because girls get uncomfortable when you seem too perfect, but be careful. Giving too much = loss of respect as you know. Giving away tidbits of info when she is really trying to know the inner you more can be good sometimes and beneficial. It makes her think that while you may be a hard, tough brute on the outside, you are actually 'sentimental' and a big 'loveable, caring softy' on the inside. This is why girls say that they want sweet, caring, sensitive guys. Because they actually do, but they don't want the dude to be a wishy washy pushover either. They want him to show the kind and caring characteristics of a provider, but still show the strength, toughness, and masculinity of a lover, of a Man.

 

[amazingswayze]

i open too much and share a lot of me because i want a partner that deeply understands me and give me the affection that i need and i haven't had in the past during very, very, very difficult moments.

but i understand that is my problem and that i shouldn't project this on my partner, especially if new. but it comes out.

this is one thing that i must work on. in some way i'd like a partner for travel and discover the world, and just have experiences together, after all what's the meaning of happiness if you don't share moments?

it's hard to be enough for yourself and not depend on others for happiness and it takes great effort to reach that mentality, but i'm working on it. i don't think that most men do this, too.

any advice about this?

you have to wait until she reciprocates. Don't start gushing with a girl unless a situation calls for it. You should be emotionally strong enough as a man to not want to spill your guts to a girl you barely know. The things on your mind, i would say, keep it inside and only give her bits and pieces.

No girl wants to be with an emotional brick wall but at the same time there is a thin line between that and an AFC. My best advice is to get her to open up first and be her support system, not the other way around.

Focus on being emotionally strong and resilient as a man.

 

[chinaski]

you have to wait until she reciprocates. Don't start gushing with a girl unless a situation calls for it. You should be emotionally strong enough as a man to not want to spill your guts to a girl you barely know. The things on your mind, i would say, keep it inside and only give her bits and pieces.

...

Focus on being emotionally strong and resilient as a man.

...They want him to show the kind and caring characteristics of a provider, but still show the strength, toughness, and masculinity of a lover, of a Man.

that's solid advice, thanks
but the fundamental question is: how can i be a man? no one taught me this one, let alone my father. i have to figure it out by myself. is there a place to start?

ps. i don't aim to be a hard, tough brute on the outside. i'm just not like that and it would be a change too big for my personality. but i can follow some traits, and be more of a calm, assertive man when it's required. that resonates more with me.

 

[chinaski]

i want to add something, it's not bragging just a consideration:
it's hard.
it's hard to stay calm in overwhelming emotional situations, without repressing emotions (in order to not become a social robot), but instead aknowledge them and don't let them control your actions,
it's hard to search for your true path in life to find happiness yourself, when society, parents and friends don't have a clue about it,
it's hard to not take the easy way, to not indulge in useless entertainment (not that i don't like it, i do from time to time, but i feel it's wasted time) and try to find a deeper meaning in life,
it's hard to let the outcome go, and desire without wanting (a zen like approach, but it's incredibly useful)

it's a though journey.
during these times my father is sick and the long term prospect is not the best. yes, i am in therapy for those things and i'm trying to find the right balance. i know the payoff is immense, but it's a dam though road and i literally know no one that made a similar path in life.

i'm sensing that there must be a deeper meaning in life outside getting girls, maybe raising a family and having children (like 99% of people do), and i want to reach as close as possible to the answer of this question. and as you can see women are only a consequence of this, not the motivation.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

that's solid advice, thanks
but the fundamental question is: how can i be a man? no one taught me this one, let alone my father. i have to figure it out by myself. is there a place to start?

ps. i don't aim to be a hard, tough brute on the outside. i'm just not like that and it would be a change too big for my personality. but i can follow some traits, and be more of a calm, assertive man when it's required. that resonates more with me.

Not necessarily a tough brute, that may have been an exaggeration. But always catch yourself when you feel that you are getting emotional. Take everything lightly unless someone has serious intent to insult or harm. What I did was I would work in spite of my emotions. If someone would get me super angry, I would remain calm and take it as a joke because often times, this is the best way to avoid drama. Of course, if a person keeps on pressing the insults with the intent to insult, then I would simply twist what they say around and use it against them or come back with a very sharp-tongued remark that would shut them up. Then I would proceed to focus on other things and ignore them like they weren't good enough for my time. This is how you win because it pisses them off the most. This shows that you don't really care what others say or think of you, but you aren't gonna take their crap either. Regardless, don't scream it at them like it bothers you, just say it.

Another thing I worked on is body language. I just think to myself "I am masculine" and it changes my body language (stand up straight, wider, head up high, or I relax if I'm sitting and open up my stance almost embracingly. Regardless, my back is straight if I'm sitting) and thus my thought process changes too. I'm not sure if it works for others, but for me it's just how it is. I tell myself that I am masculine, strong, powerful, and then I feel it internally and represent it externally. As you think, so shall you become - Bruce Lee (Pook basically took this quote from him and made it his own).

This video talks about the importance of body language. A 20% increase in testosterone after 2 minutes of changed body language (this could help with building muscle lol) and a 20% decrease in cortisol (this helps stop muscle breakdown and stress).

Anyway, the most effective way, for me at least, is to tell myself that I am masculine, dominant, strong, powerful, etc. and then I feel it and thus express it. Maybe it's like the laws of attraction or something like that.

 

[EFFORT]

how can i be a man? no one taught me this one, let alone my father. i have to figure it out by myself. is there a place to start?

1. The Unchained Man (Caleb Jones)
2. On Being a Man (David DeAngelo)
3. The Way of the Superior Man (David Deida)

 

[Bible_Belt]

but the fundamental question is: how can i be a man? no one taught me this one, let alone my father. i have to figure it out by myself. is there a place to start?

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/index.php?threads/muhammad-ali-how-to-be-a-man-101.96863/#post-889408

 

[Tictac]

open up too early,
i show them my emotions and my past, the processed emotions that are good to share, and the unprocessed ones that show my fears and my insecurities,
i became a little dependent when i share those things because i trust the other person and i tend to lean on them emotionally,

Women are not your therapist.

 

[GetFit66]

Another thought on happiness:
Do not be happiness dependant on a woman, be happy with yourself

Perhaps another way of thinking about it is that improve your life and be somewhat happiness independent so that you can still be happy without her. Have other social connections, friends, acquaintances, drinking buddies etc

 

[chinaski]

hey,
i started this thread some months ago, met another girl, broke up again.
a little info on this case: met an amazing girl last summer, way younger than me (7 years), we clicked and spent together six months of bliss. there was a little problem: my dad was very sick and passed out during the time we met, that complicated a lot of things. i was emotionally devastated, but i always tried to have a good time with her. a couple of months after the death of my parent she started telling me that she liked me a lot, but she wished that we met a little later in life, as she said i experienced life (and woman) and now i know what i want, and she wasn't so secure about herself. that started a long series of discussions, i was very weak at one point and literally told her that i couldn't afford another separation at that time in my life, sex basically stopped one month ago, then we broke up since she became very distant and every time we met she basically accused me and projected a lot of her past relationship on my persona (about being controlling, too decisive, she said that basically i decided when meet her and she has no word in that, and so on - i wasn't jealous or anything, just leading, and she's very, very insecure)

so..long story short we broke up. that was the longest lasting relationship of the last few years (about 8 months), and the break up made me question myself.

at this point in life i want a fulfilling relationship, a life partner, someone to discover the world with. so.. no casual sex, something more, something bigger. i admit i pushed things too fast on this one, and i had been an emotional trainwreck.. we all have our faults in this thing, she probably was too young and i made things heavy and difficult (because i was in a very difficult phase of my life) and she just wanted to have a good time together. and i admit that i have to work on myself before searching for a honest and complete relationship.

this relationship made me question myself, i have this unhealthily habit of being at first secure and charming, but later on in relationship i become very weak, especially during hard times. it's like i want to have a compensation for all the bad things that happened in my past, and the woman who i spend time with has to understand and give me inconditional love and support. also, i'm not jealous or anything but i behave sometimes in a controlling way..it's a subtle thing, it's not something like "you can't go out with your friends", it's something a little under the water.

i'm about to analyze with my therapist what trigger this deep abandonment issue that manifest itself with the controlling behavior and me going in full paranoia (and being completely overwhelmed by my emotions, and try to "control" the other partner to have my "fix" and being calm again) when the other partner detaches, because all my previous relationships ended in a way similar to this one, me asking "too much" in too little time, feeling that she owe me support, and overwhelming the girl. the cause is probably something related to my first years of life, and is not apparent (i had a pretty normal family at least until i was 15)

so.. those problems affected all my adult life, and i want to stop and overcome those issues before entering a new relationship. i have a few questions, too

- assume that i go down this path, overcome my demons and reach a personal stability and start feeling validated by myself instead from the external factor.. how can i be in equilibrium, but still attractive? until now all that i learned is that to be attractive you have to be a little mysterious, funny, flirty, dominant.. i find it hard to combine the two things. until now i've always "acted", until something happened (or me and my past partners become a little more intimate) and then i became needy and "lost" (and that usually ends the relationship), but how a secure and stable person can attract other people without those "little games", at least early on? does that mean that i have to drop all those things, or i can continue to use them in the first phase of the relationship?

in short, how can a man be attractive without being manipulative? being secure without repressing the other part? being dominant, yet deciding things together?

i know it all boils down to self esteem issues and validation, and i'll overcome my fears. just wanted to know if someone else walked a similar path in life

 

[chinaski]

Honestly I think the biggest thing you need to change is your dependence on girls for happiness. Your entire post is written from the perspective of what you can do to keep her... apparently the girl is a coveted prize that you'll go above and beyond to win


Your problems of texting too much, opening up too much, being too emotionally invested, etc would resolve if you were to change this

If what you describe is accurate, if I were you I'd start with Corey Wayne's book and out everything (except reading here) aside for a while. Nothing is perfect, Wayne's book included. I think for you, it would be a big help.

If you can't be happy by yourself, you will not find long term happiness with anyone


I think the reason you prioritize the attention and validation of another is because you don't believe you can be happy by yourself

Another thought on happiness:

Do not be happiness dependant on a woman, be happy with yourself


Perhaps another way of thinking about it is that improve your life and be somewhat happiness independent so that you can still be happy without her. Have other social connections, friends, acquaintances, drinking buddies etc

you were all right.
another six months passed, and i did not dated women in this months. i wanted to focus on myself and my self esteem problems.
a pua facade can't hide everything and is good for getting laid but terrible for having healthy relationships. and that's my exact problem.
i'm working on basing happiness on myself instead of other people (women especially, but also friends and family) and i'm learning that as a man, i am alone in the world and no one will reach my goals for me, i'm learning that i must be able to keep in check my emotions, that i'm supposed to support my partner most of the time and not going into a relationship only to take, that my partner is not my therapist, and not the love that i didn't received from my parents, and the most important thing of all, before attempting any relationship i need to have a stable emotional ground and being in control of myself and my actions.
in this months i've been focused on bettering myself in the workfield, i've got a new, bigger apartment, i'm reading a lot of psychology books (about attachment styles and so on), i'm trying to establish a solid workout routine and trying to be present for my family (dad passed away last year) while maintaining my identity. sometimes i still think that a woman and and easy lay could be a good temporary solution, but i know deep inside that that's not what i want. i had a lot of girls and like someone says i wonder if another woman is really what i need..

jokes apart, i'm starting to take control of my life and my actions, revising a lot of aspects including my friends, i'm alone most of the time if i have to be honest but that doesn't scare me. what i want is a stable ground to grow and build from, and that ground must be me.

 

[resilient]

- i wanted to focus on myself and my self esteem problems.
- i'm working on basing happiness on myself instead of other people (women especially, but also friends and family)
- i'm learning that as a man, i am alone in the world and no one will reach my goals for me
- i'm learning that i must be able to keep in check my emotions
- i'm supposed to support my partner most of the time and not going into a relationship only to take
- my partner is not my therapist and not the love that i didn't receive from my parents
- i need to have a stable emotional ground and being in control of myself and my actions
- in this months i've been focused on bettering myself in the workfield

All good points that you observed and made about yourself and interpersonal relationships. Keep up the self-growth, for your happiness and what you strive for will all be worth it.

 

[ubercat]

Top job Doing the work is the hardest part it all flows from there.

I am curious however why you're just about always alone. If you work and have some group hobbies surely you often have people around you?

 

[chinaski]

with "i am alone most of the time" i mean this:
i live in a big city in italy, i went there to find a new work about 10 years ago
in all those years (especially in the last five) i hung out almost exclusively with women. i constantly had a new short term relationship every time, and i didn't build a real (mixed, or male only) social circle, because i felt that i didn't need to.
my real, long time friends are in the place where my mother lives, and i'm at her place almost every saturday. so i'm seeing my real friends a night or two during the week
since i've decided to work on myself and stop dating for a while i toned down A LOT hanging out with females in the city where i live. wich isn't bad per se, it's just a symptom.
so, i have a lot of time alone: right now i'm thinking to build a new social circle for a more equilibrate life in the city where i work, maybe with someone that shares my passions. life cannot be hanging out every weekend with the same people (that i love, but some of them are limited or just don't get the whole "improving ourselves" thing), and for sure life cannot just revolve around women.
more in general, i've always been a little dependent on others to do things, i'm thinking too that some traveling alone could be a good thing for me.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

that's solid advice, thanks
but the fundamental question is: how can i be a man? no one taught me this one, let alone my father. i have to figure it out by myself. is there a place to start?

ps. i don't aim to be a hard, tough brute on the outside. i'm just not like that and it would be a change too big for my personality. but i can follow some traits, and be more of a calm, assertive man when it's required. that resonates more with me.

Read Homer, Greek philosophy, medieval religion, and literature [the earlier the better].