I didn't think women could hurt me anymore

[FlexpertHamilton]

I think this observation has value. Some men aren't equipped to handle the casual sex lifestyle. There are numerous ways to get laid. Perhaps he's better suited for a committed relationship model like serial monogamy. It doesn't mean he needs to get married but spinning plates might not be the best for him.

It could be. My basic contention remains the same: casual sex doesn't mean you get to treat people however you want. I'm always about sincere and honest communication no matter who it is. I have sincere and honest communication with almost everyone I talk to, dating or otherwise.

And the idea that "commitment" solves these problems doesn't make sense to me. I've said this before but "commitment" isn't just about "not cheating" but how woman present themselves to the world and whether she respects your boundaries. I'd never be exclusive with a girl who posts bikini pics on IG, or has tons of men hitting her up on Snapchat, or hangs out with multiple guy friends regularly, or regularly goes out to clubs on weekends with her single hoe friends. You have to screen from these things from the start and set the boundaries and see if they accept them, you can't just say "okay let's be official" without having a sense if these things are even remotely realistic in the first place or else you'll just need to walk immediately and you'll have wasted your time with her.

My problem is that very few women fit the requirements for what I expect out of an LTR, so I've largely abandoned it. I don't really value sex much and while I mentioned nutting inside women is a great feeling, not-nutting (plus avoiding all porn) is also a great feeling in and of itself. So if casual sex means you get to treat people however you want, then yes, it's not for me.

 

[BPH]

Sorry for the personal attacks. This "PUA mindset" is a common on this forum and I used you as a scapegoat. I am extremely emotionally vulnerable right now I won't deny.

Ok good, I appreciate that, it looks like we can have a conversation.

However you were implying you get laid more than me because you don't care and my contention is that you should care. My point is that I simply do not agree that these things don't matter.

Not necessarily more than you, just saying I get laid a lot compared to most people I know - and it's because I'm constantly open to meeting new women, and I'm never overly invested in one. The reason it may seem I don't care about what you deem "disrespectful" is because I'm not looking for anything more than surface-level relationships - any further connection is simply a bonus.

I'm 30 years old and still living with my parents because I haven't created a successful business for myself yet. Because of this, I don't need the added responsibility of a relationship; birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, etc all take my time and energy away from what I need to do NOW, for ME. So I'm perfectly content with establishing casual relationships with several plates so I can get my rocks off on a regular basis and not end up cranky because I'm on a dry spell.

When it comes to the few serious relationships I've been in, I've only gotten the kind of closure that you're describing once.

My first exclusive "situationship" was with a girl who came up with a fake reason for a breakup, started seeing another guy while we were together, and several years later ended up sleeping with my best friend in the same room as me after a night out at the bar. I made a whole post about whether I should go to his bachelor party/wedding after she randomly popped up on Facebook and re-ignited my anger about that situation.

My first serious relationship was long-distance right out of college, she cheated, lied about it, and said she was r*ped, made me feel guilty for not being there to prevent it, and I later found out several months later through my friend who follows her on Instagram that she had been dating the guy who "r*ped her" almost immediately after cheating on me with him.

My second serious relationship I ended because she was more serious about it than I was, so I realized I had to end things so she could meet somebody who wanted the same things she wanted - and she did. THIS was the only amicable breakup that matches up with your ideals.

My most recent relationship I ended because she picked too many fights and would withhold the sources of her accusations, so I couldn't defend myself and she would get mad about things I wasn't aware of - I got tired of that. We had a FWB arrangement for a little while, but she recently screwed that up too by defaulting to this old behavior.

All this to say you cannot control other people's behavior and have these expectations of them - it's not realistic, and most people will disappoint you. All you can control is how YOU react to it. I'm simply saying your expectations might be a little too high, given the reality of most situations.

I would be curious what your approach is to setting boundaries, standards of acceptable behavior, overall communication with regards to LTRs and how you vet and select for them (red/green flags) over casual women.

I mentioned that I'm not looking for that, so I don't really impose harsh requirements on these women. That said, I don't really "vet" them, so much as I let them show me who they are.

Watch how they treat others, how they treat people below them, how they treat you. And when they show you their true colors, believe them. Anybody can put their best foot forward for the first few months, but when people get comfortable and complacent that's when you'll see whether or not they're putting on an act to look good for you.

 

[SW15]

My basic contention remains the same: casual sex doesn't mean you get to treat people however you want. I'm always about sincere and honest communication no matter who it is.

In my experience, you are less likely to be treated with respect in the early stages before a commitment has been established. Ghosting, flaking, and other bad behaviors are more common in the pre-commitment phase.

I've talked a lot about "one date, no sex, no second date" interactions. Most of those interactions end with a woman not replying to a man's text offer for a 2nd date. In that case, no reply is better than the standard "I had a good time but do not see this going anywhere" standard text that women will offer. The polite response means absolutely nothing to me. I find it a bit condescending.

You felt that you deserved better since you had sex with her. She didn't share that feeling.

the idea that "commitment" solves these problems doesn't make sense to me. I've said this before but "commitment" isn't just about "not cheating" but how woman present themselves to the world and whether she respects your boundaries. I'd never be exclusive with a girl who posts bikini pics on IG, or has tons of men hitting her up on Snapchat, or hangs out with multiple guy friends regularly, or regularly goes out to clubs on weekends with her single hoe friends. You have to screen from these things from the start and set the boundaries and see if they accept them, you can't just say "okay let's be official" without having a sense if these things are even remotely realistic in the first place or else you'll just need to walk immediately and you'll have wasted your time with her.

Plenty of men have committed girlfriends who post bikini pics and/or other provocative pics on Instagram. Plenty of men also have girlfriends with many men hitting them up on Snapchat or other forums. It's difficult for men to keep tabs on the social media accounts of their girlfriends/wives. It is a bit of a bad look when women do this.

Going to nightlife venues on weekends and/or going on Girls Trips is even wore. Rich Cooper has done content on Girls Trips.

There's an argument that beta-ization by 1,000 concessions happens.

My problem is that very few women fit the requirements for what I expect out of an LTR, so I've largely abandoned it.

You might need to re-evaluate for what you expect. Is it realistic?

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

All this to say you cannot control other people's behavior and have these expectations of them - it's not realistic, and most people will disappoint you. All you can control is how YOU react to it. I'm simply saying your expectations might be a little too high, given the reality of most situations.

Yes exactly, and reacting to any form of disrespect, casual or not, means walking away, no exceptions. It's the same with setting boundaries. It's not a "you must do this" where you try to force her to be a certain way, and certainly not some dumb shvt like mate guarding, it's "this is what I find acceptable, it's your choice if you want to comply, but if you choose to not comply, just know I will take that as a sign that you do not take this seriously" and I will then likely walk away or keep her at a distance and not pursue anything further with her.

Watch how they treat others, how they treat people below them, how they treat you. And when they show you their true colors, believe them. Anybody can put their best foot forward for the first few months, but when people get comfortable and complacent that's when you'll see whether or not they're putting on an act to look good for you.

I also do this. Vetting isn't so much probing questions. It's actually just getting them to open up and show you who they are without judgment. There is an element of manipulation here I suppose because I may pretend to be more naive than I really am until I can process all the bits of information I ascertain from their behaviors and comments.

You might need to re-evaluate for what you expect. Is it realistic?

No, it's not realistic at all. Especially considering I never want a family, marriage, cohabitation, or even sleepovers (because of my insomnia), having those expectations is even more unrealistic to the point of absurdity. Hence, I may be foisting these expectations onto casual relationships with the hopes they eventually warrant a more "serious" companionship even knowing that true exclusivity may not ever happen. I no longer expect it and I've pretty much given up on ever finding a western women who will be a match for me. So what do I do? Just not fvck anymore? I literally go on dry spells for a year or longer out of sheer disinterest, apathy, and disappointment, then grow to miss it and start running through women again for a short period and find myself in all sorts of messes like these. I've also tried the "friend" route with women and that was equally distastrous. There's no winning game for me short of being a passport bro but that doesn't work either considering I don't want a marriage or family... Luckily, I value genuine friendships above all else and I have several close friends who I value above anything (even family) and that means more to me than anything and so at least I have that.

 

[SW15]

I never want a family, marriage, cohabitation, or even sleepovers (because of my insomnia),

It would be EXTREMELY difficult to get into a committed, non-marital relationship with those 4 criteria.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

It would be EXTREMELY difficult to get into a committed, non-marital relationship with those 4 criteria.

I'm very well aware of that. For that reason I more often align with the "independant" educated/career types of women even though I have my own problems with that...so I have to make compromises somewhere. My ideal woman would be a semi-independant type of woman, maybe something like a dental hygienist, with her own apartment, a moderate/apolitical bend, and non-feminist views, who has small group of close female friends who are married or in LTRs, who wants a boyfriend for the companionship where we can complement each othe; where she encourages and nurtures me as a force multiplier for my business and personal goals, while I provide stability and security and be her rock, and where where we have things in common (like dark sense of humor, intellectual interests, outlook on life) so we can do stuff together like travel, go fun places, or just stay at home and game or watch funny stuff on youtube or have deep conversation. In that view it's not that unreasonable I suppose but probably can't happen in America.

This girl didn't like any of those things either (besides sleepovers) which is also why this hurt because even finding women who aren't interested, let alone open to marriage, kids, or cohabitation is rare enough on its own but finding one who I also connect with in an intellectual/personal level on top of that is even more rare and that's why this hurt so much...........I doubt she realizes how rare men like me are and how rare it is for people like us to meet.

I know this is a losing battle, but unlike women I don't delude myself into thinking I "deserve it" and hope for the chance of a one in a million women with those qualities. For me I've just kind of accepted I will die alone. Luckily, I'm in the top 99th percentile for introversion according to the Big Five statistics, and so I'm pretty content to be alone...but I won't pretend that it's not nice to have romantic companionship.

 

[SW15]

For that reason I more often align with the "independant" educated/career types of women even though I have my own problems with that...so I have to make compromises somewhere.

The educated/careerist type of woman has her own flaws. You're realistic that you have to make compromises somewhere. Most people have to make compromises somewhere. Most people (man or woman) won't get their entire list of desired characteristics. From my observation, it seems like men realize this more and are more willing to make the compromises.

This girl didn't like any of those things either (besides sleepovers) which is also why this hurt because even finding women who aren't interested, let alone open to marriage, kids, or cohabitation is rare enough on its own.

The fact that you found a woman who was not interested in marriage, kids, or cohabitation was impressive. I can see why losing that one would have been tough on you emotionally. Despite her lack of interest in those 3 things, she wasn't LTR material due to her mental illnesses and high past partner count.

 

[MatureDJ]

I don't think I'm getting through to you so I'll leave you with this and let you get back to your echo chamber...

There is a difference between "disrespect" and "not being a priority". You expect these girls to respect and value you, but you're NOT looking for a relationship with them, yet you get upset when they don't treat you as if you're the only man in their life...do you not see the hypocrisy there?

Just look at the way you responded to me; because I don't get my panties in a bunch when a plate doesn't respond for a while means I must be some "old school PUA" type with the goal of getting laid at the expense of my dignity and self-respect...

The truth of the matter is I don't care whether they ghost me or not - and it's not even about "abundance", I'm just busy maintaining other plates or meeting new ones. If one drops off and comes back later on, who cares? I don't know what's going on in their lives.

Sometimes they get into a relationship.

Sometimes they're freshly single and want a rebound.

Who cares? Just because somebody doesn't prioritize you doesn't mean they're disrespecting you. Tell yourself whatever "deep game" theories make you feel like you're above me for not getting emotional about this. I think you met a girl who gave you great sex, as per your "nutting inside makes you feel like superman" post or whatever, and now you're pissy because that's been temporarily taken away from you.

AND, you're about to blow it all up because this woman might have a life that doesn't revolve around your expectations.

Have fun.

EDIT: The personal attacks on my character are a result of you getting emotional. You are getting emotional about a PLATE because she is treating YOU as a plate. Hopefully, you'll eventually recognize that.

It's OVER for PlateCels.

 

[MatureDJ]

It would be EXTREMELY difficult to get into a committed, non-marital relationship with those 4 criteria.

It's OVER for InsomniaCels.

 

[The Duke]

Fellas....if the girl that is the subject of this post was reading she would be laughing. Way too much analysis and paralysis. Look how much attention some random is getting that doesnt even deserve it. Over thinking is not conducive to being successful with women. It's not an attractive trait either.

She's just a silly girl that wanted some dihk for whatever reason. Guys do that stuff all the time. Let it rest. It's onto the next.

 

[Bingo-Player]

Disagree. I've met some great women on swipe apps. This is a meme that women on OLD are somehow different. Not only do almost all women use them nowadays, but there's no real difference in the women on OLD vs "real life". Btw I am talking about Hinge, not Tinder, the latter of which tends to be a dumpster fire.

You may have been lucky but women are not stupid just as we are criticising women for being on swipe apps they are doing the same too men

And it gets worse because no woman really WANTS to meet her man on a swipe app , most chicks have the apps as an absolute last resort or something to do when their bored , that's why the flaky behaviour on them is so high

If you meet a woman In real life you have a story to tell together , this creates a bit of a foundation a bit of common ground

On a swipe app theres nothing but " the picture looked good"

The forced mechanical nature of swipe apps has been laid bare for all to see in recent years which is why the second you mention them most people will just roll their eyes

They will die out eventually and it will be one of them things people laugh at in the future

 

[corrector]

You felt that you deserved better since you had sex with her. She didn't share that feeling.

Because she is a hor.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Fellas....if the girl that is the subject of this post was reading she would be laughing. Way too much analysis and paralysis. Look how much attention some random is getting that doesnt even deserve it. Over thinking is not conducive to being successful with women. It's not an attractive trait either.

She's just a silly girl that wanted some dihk for whatever reason. Guys do that stuff all the time. Let it rest. It's onto the next.

We haven't really been discussing her much at all but more general principles about relationships. But yes over thinking and analysis is not good/

 

[Clockwerk50]

No, it's not realistic at all. Especially considering I never want a family, marriage, cohabitation, or even sleepovers (because of my insomnia), having those expectations is even more unrealistic to the point of absurdity.

These are the basics of “no-strings-attached” relationships. Both parties keep each other at arm's length, just as @BPH explained in his examples and as this woman is doing now.

Let me guess: you told her you were looking for a relationship with those parameters, and she said she was interested in something similar (the fantasy I mentioned in another post to fill your inner void). Then, when she starts acting within that arrangement, you develop oneitis.

It's important to recognize that women typically don’t start considering exclusivity until about six months into dating, and most relationships begin this way. I find it hard to believe that a woman wouldn’t want to move forward with her top option; it often comes down to her not wanting something serious right now. Given your clear boundaries—like not wanting family, marriage, or cohabitation—are you sure this arrangement aligns with what you truly want in the long run, especially since you’re struggling with it?

 

[RangerMIke]

I've had a few painful experiences with particular woman while seeing other women on the side. Men act like that's some kind of prophylactic but it's simply not. Abundance and living a good life doesn't mean you're suddenly immune to emotional vulnerability, if anything this "plate spinning" stuff is a cope.

You are correct. Going out and dating other women isn't a magic pill that fixes anything. In many ways it can make things worst... Why? Because you are already an emotional mess. Women do this sh1t all the time, they go from one dysfunctional relationship to another.

It does is helps you move on faster. As the old saying goes: “If you’re going through hell, keep going.”

The best advice I can give any man going through a tough break up is FIRST, work on yourself. If you are emerging from a divorce after a long marriage, you need to focus your effort on your finances. If you were just dating for a few months... well, you really need to do some introspection and figure out how and why you got yourself in that situation in the first place. If you don't figure out 'why and how' that happened then you cannot self-correct.

Go ahead and date... but do it to have fun without trying to find the next chick that is going to break your heart.

 

[CornbreadFed]

we texted for a few days then it petered off and nothing happened (I don't remember what happened, but whatever it was it caused my to delete the texts, though that doesn't necessarily imply anything bad). Then out of the blue 3+ months later, she starts texting me asking me how I'm doing and I ask "who is this?" and she sends me a pic and wants to meetup.

This right here was a huge red flag that you ignored. She showed you her true colors at the beginning and you applied the hope strategy to ignore this.

 

[New_Journey]

guys do whatever it takes to get laid and passively "tolerate" disrespect and pretend they don't care and put their head in the clouds and shrug and say "hey at least I'm getting pvssy". I'd rather take the L and very often take the L to forgo sex if they do not respect me.

While I agree with this, in order for a woman to respect a man, the man needs to be worthy of respect.

You getting all upset for a woman whom you fvcked for a month, its not worthy of respect, she didn't insult you, she didn't tell you anything, she just put some distance between you too and your world came down crumbling. You're so hurt by that, that you started to put her down saying she's crazy and a ho3.

What's hurting you the most is that she might be a ho3, but obviously not for you. If you had experience you should've known, that women are like that, and if one doesn't give you time, you move on and date others.

 

[Solomon]

Welcome to hookup culture where you can hook up with a girl and have great sex but no commitment, no pathway to a relationship, and where ghosting and flaking are most likely even if you did nothing wrong.

IMO Op did nothing wrong, I know the forum likes to pile on but unfortunately, it's the time we live in. I remember 20 years ago you made love to a woman 2-3 times she was yours, it was like women were mini-infatuated with you. This changed overnight once smartphones and social media came in

Once again bro you did nothing wrong, except for being human, I said it a few years ago but if you wanna be successful in modern dating, especially with OLD you literally have to be a sociopath, it's that bad

IMO is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship or commitment but good luck finding that in OLD

Even if you meet a quality girl with OLD nothing is set in stone until she deletes the app and shows an effort to be with you, most women in OLD have some issue whether they are relationship avoidant, emotionally unavailable or just straight-up hot messes doesn't matter how pretty they are, it's reason why they are on the app

 

[Solomon]

My blunt and to-the-point response to OP and others.

This is how it is and this is how it goes down.

Currently the woman has all the power in these kinda situations. For guys like you (and me and others) we dont get to meet too.many females so opportunities are hard to come by, and then we have to take those opportunities by smashing asap moving fast etc.

This is a problem. Its easy and simple whats happening here, the female doesnt really care she just wants to 'use' a guy for whatever experience and then discard him. She has all the power. When she reaches out after the first time you went straight to give her what she wanted, a good time, you didn't make her wait by first checking that she will stay in touch for a while and be stable but you gave her good romantic time straight away hoping that makes this a success.

I know it tough, but imo in today's market a guy needs to be rocksolid and making sure the female is stable and reliable before giving her the good romantic.time. better to talk and make her wait for s*x then she knows she cant just come and go and have her 'fun' with you at her convenience and 4then discard you.

Too.many guys are too eager to please and wanna take any chance for romantic fun instead of making her wait.

Ive had all these experiences which is why nowadays im all about letting the female know on advance what im about and i let them know im not interested in physical or romantic any of that until i first see that they can be stable for a while over text etc not blocking running away ghosting etc but being cool and.stable and reliable.

Ofcourse as guys we have been led to believe in some cases that we have to move fast and also we have been told that once we bang that chick good and quickly she will be inlove with us due to oxytocin blah blah and that winners move fast and losers move slow. But this is not how it is right now.

For those higher quality guys out there that are capable of keeping a womans interest my point is to deal with these type of problems you need to be rocksolid at the start and to some extent wait until the female gives up her game. This means not running out asap to take her out smash etc but waiting until she shows you that she is emotionally stable aint gonna disappear has been able to stay in touch consistently without drama for.some.time.

Bottom line is right now these women are all over the place in terms of their attention span and they only care about what THEY want and WHEN they want it. I high quality guy needs to adapt and not give in to it but to make her wait somewhat and take him seriously and she should be as a stable mature person.

Ofcourse this only applies to men.able to.withstand the difficulties of hard mode. He must.hold her attention and then make her wait this takes the excess power and domimance from her and balances things a bit more.

This is spot on for vetting a quality girl and relationship however if we are talking about OLD, in the current times you're basically sending OP on a dummy mission. When you're dealing with OLD women,you have to meet a woman that fits your standards. The main issue with OLD dating is that with women having so many options. The average man gets matched with 2.5% of women he swipes with, the average woman gets matched with 50% of men they swipe with!, even if you take this path you are not assured any results. The truth is for 90% of men OLD is a waste of time unless he's looking for a MID lay or a girlfriend far below his SMV. I have a buddy who in person I had this conversation with in 2022 at a local hookah restaurant and telling me how I should be vetting women to be girlfriends only when using OLD

By 2023 He has changed his tune to "F LOVE" the same buddy now is currently spinning 5 plates. Now is telling me get as many women as you can etc. The thing is with "Hookup culture" dating or first dates are now pathways to sex and not relationships. Are there girls who are looking for more? of course but while you're getting her she is talking to 10-20 other men. Even if you didn't do anything wrong, the girl can drop you out of the blue because she found another option better or more interesting. OLD is not conducive to finding quality women it's like @SW15 says it's bottom of the barrel and that is for good reason.


Now if we are talking about meeting a woman in person I totally agree with you but OLD is not for finding girlfriends but FWB's at best

 

[BaronOfHair]

Posting this despite knowing I may be mocked or this will ruin my "credibility" but I don't care.

A few months back I met a girl off OLD and we texted for a few days then it petered off and nothing happened (I don't remember what happened, but whatever it was it caused my to delete the texts, though that doesn't necessarily imply anything bad). Then out of the blue 3+ months later, she starts texting me asking me how I'm doing and I ask "who is this?" and she sends me a pic and wants to meetup.

We go on a hike and then get drinks and I go over to her place and smash. She comes pretty fast and the sex was great and I lasted long, and she's super affectionate for the rest of the night.

I don't text her after the date. She reaches out first 3 days later (ALWAYS a good sign) and she say wants to see me again. We ended up hanging out 2 more times and had more good sex, good conversation/chemistry. I felt like I could relax around her a little bit. She seemed warm and kind and high IL, talking about stuff she wanted to do with me, and seemed very excited and eager, all signs of high IL. She even did a favor for me and ran an errand for me to pick up something I needed to fix my motorcycle which only further solidifies my point.

After our 3rd date , I don't hear from her for 3 days so figure I should initiate. We just do some light texting, not much. Then in the middle of the week I asked her what her weekend plans are. She doesn't reply for 24 hours. Now some will say that means nothing but I say that's BS. I've never once in my life had a girl not reply for 24 hours to respond to a text that warrants a response. I was baffled. Once she finally texts back she says "hi sorry I was busy I went to a concert and now this weekend I'm having my girlfriends stay over, what are you up to?" I wait a whole day to reply and had considered not even replying at all but I'm not the type to avoid confrontation. So I play it cool and say "oh yeah I bet that was cool, and sounds like a fun weekend too. Nothing crazy on my end, trying to close a sale and doing a project for my business which I'm pretty focused on lately". She never replies or calls me since then and it's been 36 hours now.

In my mind, it's done. I don't care what she says at this point. I've already moved on. My only consideration (if she even reaches out again) is whether to ghost or confront her (not to convince her, but get the final word in) but I don't think that will serve any purpose.

I know people will say "abundance bro", "you care too much". Nah this is not that simple. I really don't give a shvt about women anymore. Furthmore, I've only ever thought of this girl as recreational use only (she's genuinely batshvt crazy and a total hoe), and only ever intended to just have some fun with her. Despite this, it still hurts a lot which makes it even more baffling. I know I'm not supposed to care, but that's just it, I do care. I'm not going to be like other posters and put on a machismo act. I have handled many rejections over my life and I've ended things with a few women pretty recently but none of them hurt like this one. I have things going for me in my life and other women in the picture. The issue is that I cannot honestly recall something like before where a high IL woman who I have very good chemistry with does a complete 180 after 3+ dates for seemingly no reason. I already know that the explaination is that another guy came into the picture. And I'm not asking advice for what to do as I'm 100% done with her now.

I mostly wanted to vent, and say that I thought I was immune to this sort of stuff but apparently not.

You may need to serenade yourself, Flex