Let's Be Real Here Pt.1 - "The wall" actually starts at 50

[CornbreadFed]

There was a time when Roosh and the Return of Kings website led the Manosphere (think 2013-2015). I preferred that era in the Manosphere to now.

Additionally, the black pill has gotten more prominent since the mid-2010s.

I still think the female wall is at least around menopause.

The black pill has swallowed up the remaining college kids/working youth that cannot relate to Fresh and Fit's working class style.

 

[SW15]

The black pill has swallowed up the remaining college kids/working youth that cannot relate to Fresh and Fit's working class style.

When we think about the blue pill/red pill/black pill continuum, we must realize that the majority of men will end up being blue pill simps who spend their lives thirsting for vagina. This is why the wall doesn't hit for women until at least menopause. Male thirst for vagina is immense during most women's peaks and well into women's 30s and 40s.

 

[Smooth_texter]

No, you're correct about the physical. A woman in her 30s if she's in shape can still look alright. She can find a decent guy and MAYBE a pretty high value guy.

The mental is everything. I would say you're sorely mistaken to discount how important it is. You see a person a person is free to make whatever choice(s) they want, but they are not free from the consequences of those choices. This goes for women and also men alike. After a certain age and number of failed relationships it weighs on the woman's mind. It manifests in anger, regret, having to hide some things from prospective new partners...becomes difficult for them because they are jaded and they do a good job of pushing away men more than anything.

They sabotage themselves, in the same way some men do by being simps, manginas, cowards etc

I have seen former FWB and flames going trough the mental wall trough the years, and I agree that takes away the ability for a woman to pair bond.

However, that is a self inflicted wound - if a woman has slept a lot/partied a lot/dated a lot/all of the above (I think I have saved some graphs from a study, showing that there is a low probability for a woman to bond after her fifth or sixth partner). There are still women (very few however) who very carefully select their men and deal with them only trough LTRs.

But the point of my thread is that women can attract men for a very long time, regardless if they can no longer pair bond or not. They can pick and choose, group the interested guys into "FWB", "Boyfriend" or "Orbiter" tiers and use them as they see fit. I believe also that past a certain lay count, every woman knows that she can no longer feel love and intimacy as she once could. So they focus on short or very short relationships.

I would actually argue that the average guy hits a taller wall at 25-30, and needs to self improve just to have access to women, but still has a fraction of the selection that a 30 or even 40 year old woman has.

 

[SW15]

I would actually argue that the average guy hits a taller wall at 25-30, and needs to self improve just to have access to women, but still has a fraction of the selection of a 30 or even 40 year old woman.

I think men peak around ages 25-30. The reason for this is that it is difficult to pull off larger age gaps in extended relationships. A 27 year old man has a good chance of seducing and retaining a 22 year old for the longer term. That's a normal and societally acceptable age difference. A 40 year old man is going to have a lot of challenges with seducing and maintaining relationships with 21-25 year old women, even better than average 40 year old men.

There's a reason why the typical 30s/40s man is a thirsty man who ends up settling for some mediocre to subpar woman close to his own age. That's not a man's true peak. Older men are often ending up choosing from damaged goods women in their 30s and 40s.

 

[Smooth_texter]

I think men peak around ages 25-30. The reason for this is that it is difficult to pull off larger age gaps in extended relationships. A 27 year old man has a good chance of seducing and retaining a 22 year old for the longer term. That's a normal and societally acceptable age difference. A 40 year old man is going to have a lot of challenges with seducing and maintaining relationships with 21-25 year old women, even better than average 40 year old men.

There's a reason why the typical 30s/40s man is a thirsty man who ends up settling for some mediocre to subpar woman close to his own age. That's not a man's true peak. Older men are often ending up choosing from damaged goods women in their 30s and 40s.

I agree.

But as you know, after finishing college, there is a huge drop in social activities and acquittances for a man. So the man has to look for, participate in different sports, hobbies and meet new people to compensate this. For females this drop is not that big, if it exists at all.

This is a man's first small "wall" in mid/late 20s. Of course, the obstacles in your 30s and 40s become bigger.

If you add to that remote work and/or living away from downtown or in a family suburb, you pretty much have a lot to counter.

Which is not a bad thing, we as men must act, I am just stating the differences.

 

[Bigpapa]

There's a reason why the typical 30s/40s man is a thirsty man who ends up settling for some mediocre to subpar woman close to his own age. That's not a man's true peak. Older men are often ending up choosing from damaged goods women in their 30s and 40s.

Quality guys will always be interesting for younger women

The peak on looks for guys who take care of them is actually like early 40s. How many guys in their 40s have you seen as taking care of themselves? Few to none. Most of them look like sh1t

If you are mediocre guy, your real options will be women around your age or older

Have you seen how a mediocre guy looks in his 40s?

Why a guy that did not took care of himself should have access to women at their peak?

I think that you have to be delusional to think that you deserve a woman at her peak, when you do not even take care of yourself

 

[SW15]

But as you know, after finishing college, there is a huge drop in social activities and acquittances for a man. So the man has to look for, participate in different sports, hobbies and meet new people to compensate this. For females this drop is not that big, if it exists at all.

This is a man's first small "wall" in mid/late 20s. Of course, the obstacles in your 30s and 40s become bigger.

If you add to that remote work and/or working away from downtown or from a family suburb, you pretty much have a lot to counter.

Which is not a bad thing, we as men must act, I am just stating the differences.

When you consider and evaluate the men that go to college, the drop off in social activities and acquaintances does happen and it is happening at ages 22-24. For men that end their education at high school or maybe go to a 2 year trade school, that will happen at ages 18-20.

Yes, let's talk about that mid-20s small wall you identified. I went to college so that was first happening for me at 22-23.

In a mid-sized metro area (200,000+ population), navigating around that wall is quite easy. There are many ways to do it. Here are the common ways that men in their mid to late 20s do it. These men typically do one or more of the following things....

• Join a co-ed sports league
• Join a gym/fitness facility with a population of similarly aged unmarried women
• Live in an apartment community with similarly aged unmarried women, usually in a part of the metro area with the highest concentration of younger, unmarried people
• Go to bars that are commonly visited by unmarried women under 30.

Those obstacles for a man in his mid to late 20s are easier to beat. Now let's talk about a 35-40 year old childless man and his obstacles.

The 35-40 year old single male has fewer male friends, so he lacks options for having wingmen on bar visits. That makes going to the bars and doing approaches more difficult. Additionally, he may have more responsibilities at his job than when he was in his mid to late 20s, so being at a bar at 10:30 PM on Tuesday night becomes less realistic. He's still young enough to do co-ed sports leagues, but women are starting to see him as the "older guy", and that doesn't help. @CornbreadFed just told a story of a 24 year old woman who rejected a good looking 33 year old man for being 33. That commonly happens, both in co-ed sports leagues and other venues. The 35-40 year old man might try to date women 30+ but then he either is dealing with childless careerists (often attitude problems) or single moms start to enter his dating pool. Things are worse if he's reliant upon swipe apps. In general, the dating pool gets narrower and more difficult to navigate for the 35-40 year old childless man, even if he does stay in better than average shape.

 

[Smooth_texter]

When you consider and evaluate the men that go to college, the drop off in social activities and acquaintances does happen and it is happening at ages 22-24. For men that end their education at high school or maybe go to a 2 year trade school, that will happen at ages 18-20.

Yes, let's talk about that mid-20s small wall you identified. I went to college so that was first happening for me at 22-23.

In a mid-sized metro area (200,000+ population), navigating around that wall is quite easy. There are many ways to do it. Here are the common ways that men in their mid to late 20s do it. These men typically do one or more of the following things....

• Join a co-ed sports league
• Join a gym/fitness facility with a population of similarly aged unmarried women
• Live in an apartment community with similarly aged unmarried women, usually in a part of the metro area with the highest concentration of younger, unmarried people
• Go to bars that are commonly visited by unmarried women under 30.

Those obstacles for a man in his mid to late 20s are easier to beat. Now let's talk about a 35-40 year old childless man and his obstacles.

The 35-40 year old single male has fewer male friends, so he lacks options for having wingmen on bar visits. That makes going to the bars and doing approaches more difficult. Additionally, he may have more responsibilities at his job than when he was in his mid to late 20s, so being at a bar at 10:30 PM on Tuesday night becomes less realistic. He's still young enough to do co-ed sports leagues, but women are starting to see him as the "older guy", and that doesn't help. @CornbreadFed just told a story of a 24 year old woman who rejected a good looking 33 year old man for being 33. That commonly happens, both in co-ed sports leagues and other venues. The 35-40 year old man might try to date women 30+ but then he either is dealing with childless careerists (often attitude problems) or single moms start to enter his dating pool. Things are worse if he's reliant upon swipe apps. In general, the dating pool gets narrower and more difficult to navigate for the 35-40 year old childless man, even if he does stay in better than average shape.

I agree with this logic.

My original point from post #86 was that the average man (or even a Chad, or a Chad lite) hits a bigger wall at 25-30 (regarding social life, dating options, sexual partners), compared to the average female at 25-30, or even in her mid 40s.

This is in regards to most redpill gurus' theory that women hit a wall at 25-30 and somehow become invisible (I believe that 3-4 years ago, when I started my proper journey into the diff. pills, "The wall" age was stated as 23-24, which is absurd)

 

[SW15]

that women can attract men for a very long time, regardless if they can no longer pair bond or not. They can pick and choose, group the interested guys into "FWB", "Boyfriend" or "Orbiter" tiers and use them as they see fit. I believe also that past a certain lay count, every woman knows that she can no longer feel love and intimacy as she once could. So they focus on short or very short relationships.

I agree with this.

My original point from post #86 was that the average man (or even a Chad, or a Chad lite) hits a bigger wall at 25-30 (regarding social life, dating options, sexual partners), compared to the average female at 25-30, or even in her mid 40s.

Yes

This is in regards to most redpill gurus' theory that women hit a wall at 25-30 and somehow become invisible (I believe that 3-4 years ago, when I started my proper journey into the diff. pills, "The wall" age was stated as 23-24, which is absurd)

Women don't start to become invisible at 26. Even if a woman notices in her late 20s/early 30s that she's being approached in person less, she can easily correct this by becoming more active on social media (increasing her DM count) or using a swipe app. A 35 year old in 2023 active on a swipe app can have more prospects for sex than her 21 year old self had in 2009 if she wasn't using dating websites in 2009.

Roosh wrote this great piece about the wall for women in 2014 that is still applicable today.

The Wall Is Softer Than We Think

 

[SW15]

From the comments section of this article.....

The Wall

Not to belabor the fresh input contributed by new Rational Reader ‘S’, but her recent comment regarding The Wall has made me aware that I haven’t yet gone into too much detail reg…

therationalmale.com

Rollo posted this comment in 2012 and Roosh likely originally made the comment somewhere around 2009-2012. It holds up well in 2023.

 

[Luni]

the wall is about how a woman perceives herself. gentlemen, i can assure you that at the tender age of 24, women display signs of concern. there's no argument here, solipsism is not a joke.

 

[Solomon]

If he was a true stud, he would have still enjoyed life with beautiful young women while also keeping his marriage

Look at Neymar, he has a contract with his wife which lets him bang other chicks as long as he is not kissing them on the mouth or goes to prostitutes

There are way more examples like this, where the wife knows what the guy is doing but she is happy that he is returning to her all the time. Even have a friend like this

If people want to follow whatever is preaching, sure they can do that. Everyone has the liberty to do whatever they want to, but stop glorifying a guy like that. He does more bad than good things

There are tons of rumors in vegas that Rollo steps out on his wife all the time
I'm not here to gossip
But didn't he write "The Players Handbook" it would make sense that Rollo would know how to be a player if he steps out on his wife

 

[Bigpapa]

There are tons of rumors in vegas that Rollo steps out on his wife all the time
I'm not here to gossip
But didn't he write "The Players Handbook" it would make sense that Rollo would know how to be a player if he steps out on his wife

Really doubt that if this would be the case, he would bang women in the 20-30 years old range. At best girls his own age

He is a theoretician, but as we know most of theory is not backed up by practice

In theory even communism was a good idea

 

[ThisIsSparta]

You guys have to realize that the wall is not hitting women when guys stop trying to fvck them but when the men they are looking for stop commiting to them.

Taking into account that at 80% of women think they deserve a top 20% man the wall will hit a lot earlier then 50 in the vast majority of cases.

 

[Bigpapa]

You guys have to realize that the wall is not hitting women when guys stop trying to fvck them but when the men they are looking for stop commiting to them.

Taking into account that at 80% of women think they deserve a top 20% man the wall will hit a lot earlier then 50 in the vast majority of cases.

Then most women hit the wall when they hit puberty

 

[CornbreadFed]

You guys have to realize that the wall is not hitting women when guys stop trying to fvck them but when the men they are looking for stop commiting to them.

Taking into account that at 80% of women think they deserve a top 20% man the wall will hit a lot earlier then 50 in the vast majority of cases.

I thought we only cared about their actions not feelings

 

[Smooth_texter]

Women don't start to become invisible at 26. Even if a woman notices in her late 20s/early 30s that she's being approached in person less, she can easily correct this by becoming more active on social media (increasing her DM count) or using a swipe app. A 35 year old in 2023 active on a swipe app can have more prospects for sex than her 21 year old self had in 2009 if she wasn't using dating websites in 2009.

Roosh wrote this great piece about the wall for women in 2014 that is still applicable today.

The Wall Is Softer Than We Think

I agree and I am aware.

My point is that red pill gurus and bitter men use this as cope. I have literally seen different podcasts from the many gurus claiming that a 28-30 woman is now invisible to most men (not just for commitment), replaced by the current crop of 18-22 year olds. Which sounds great in theory, and perhaps was the norm 60-70 years ago. But I believe that now, almost every man would be ecstatic and overwhelmed to have the choice and abundance of an average 28-30 woman (even an overweight one).


Regarding the specific mechanics - yes, women are aware and know how to use different funnels for sourcing suitors.
They actually use social media almost professionaly, knowing what and when to post, to generate interest or just get a dopamine spike.

Example - An introverted average woman can have a few interested men where she lives, a couple more at work, tens from fb, tens more from Instagram. And if she really wants attention and abundance, she can go big by creating an account on OLD, which would generate at least 100 new men a day (super conservative, check the below clip for empirical data).

Obese woman Tinder profile experiment

 

[Smooth_texter]

View attachment 10657

From the comments section of this article.....

The Wall

Not to belabor the fresh input contributed by new Rational Reader ‘S’, but her recent comment regarding The Wall has made me aware that I haven’t yet gone into too much detail reg…

therationalmale.com

Rollo posted this comment in 2012 and Roosh likely originally made the comment somewhere around 2009-2012. It holds up well in 2023.

Near the end of Rollo's post, we literally can see that "The wall" is something used for coping from men. Yes, a 40, or even a 30 year old woman would look different than her 18-20 year old self. But having for example a thousand matches a month (conservative estimation, data in my previous post) gives them huge abundance and validation.



Below is an anecdotal example, which is very conservative.

Let's say that an average looking woman sources men only from OLD (for simplicity's sake). She used to have 1000 matches a month when she was 25. Now, let's say she is 35 and looks wise is only 60% of what she used to be (highly unlikely, unless she had terrible genes or very poor lifestyle). Let's also assume that her matches dropped by the same percentage. So she now has "only" 600 matches a month.

Even if she decides to go after just the 90th percentile (the top ten percent of men), that is 60 men, per month. Most likely she would not have the time or patience to deal with them all. So she re-evaluates their SMV again. I would argue that if the interested people in you are in the hundreds or thousands, you actually go only after the top 1% or less. So in this example, she revaluates the previous 60 top tier candidates and assigns the new candidates that are in the 90th percentile, narrowing to 6 guys.

So this process basically supplies her with 6 super high value (compared to her candidate pool) men, interested in her, per month.

This theory would actually explain the OLD conundrum, because even if women only went after the 80th percentile (as claimed by red pill podcasters), that would mean 200+ men per month, which I do not find likely.

 

[Bigpapa]

Near the end of Rollo's post, we literally can see that "The wall" is something used for coping from men. Yes, a 40, or even a 30 year old woman would look different than her 18-20 year old self. But having for example a thousand matches a month (conservative estimation, data in my previous post) gives them huge abundance and validation.

View attachment 10673

Below is an anecdotal example, which is very conservative.

Let's say that an average looking woman sources men only from OLD (for simplicity's sake). She used to have 1000 matches a month when she was 25. Now, let's say she is 35 and looks wise is only 60% of what she used to be (highly unlikely, unless she had terrible genes or very poor lifestyle). Let's also assume that her matches dropped by the same percentage. So she now has "only" 600 matches a month.

Even if she decides to go after just the 90th percentile (the top ten percent of men), that is 60 men, per month. Most likely she would not have the time or patience to deal with them all. So she re-evaluates their SMV again. I would argue that if the interested people in you are in the hundreds or thousands, you actually go only after the top 1% or less. So in this example, she revaluates the previous 60 top tier candidates and assigns the new candidates that are in the 90th percentile, narrowing to 6 guys.

So this process basically supplies her with 6 super high value (compared to her candidate pool) men, interested in her, per month.

This theory would actually explain the OLD conundrum, because even if women only went after the 80th percentile (as claimed by red pill podcasters), that would mean 200+ men per month, which I do not find likely.

1) 30 year old women are not replaced at the same pace by the 18-20 years old women due to the lower birth rate ( most developed countries are aging super fast - more old people and less young ones )

2) it assumes that high value guys will prefer the young ones, but if you look really closely you will see that they mainly prefer late 20s mid 30s women

Even a 40-50 years old woman would still be attractive to a guy that is 60-80 years old


There is no wall for women, not even in terms of commitment ( there will always be a simp happy to date a bitter woman that will cheat on him and make his life a living hell )

 

[Smooth_texter]

1) 30 year old women are not replaced at the same pace by the 18-20 years old women due to the lower birth rate ( most developed countries are aging super fast - more old people and less young ones )

2) it assumes that high value guys will prefer the young ones, but if you look really closely you will see that they mainly prefer late 20s mid 30s women

Even a 40-50 years old woman would still be attractive to a guy that is 60-80 years old


There is no wall for women, not even in terms of commitment ( there will always be a simp happy to date a bitter woman that will cheat on him and make his life a living hell )

Yes, I agree.

This "replacement of 28-30 year old women with the current crop of 18-22 year olds" does not happen that often in practice. And also the podcasters were assuming that every guy can replace such a woman every time they wish (which is fantasy land, unless you are super high value).

Regarding commitment - that also is not a problem for a 30s/40s woman. in the above example from post #101 (with conservative estimates, for empirical data you can check any Youtube video from the last 5 yrs) a woman can literally choose the top 99 percentile of her dating pool (6 guys).

If no one from them would commit to her, she can go as low as the 80th percentile in her dating pool (top 20 percent of men) - which in the above example from post #101 would mean 120 men.

I am having a hard time believing that she cannot get a commitment from anybody from that group of 120 guys.