Harridan complains about dating: "is the bar that f---ing low"?

[SW15]

Yeah, but how is she gonna find them if they're no. 85,147, 245 and 574? That's how they end up bitter, jaded serial daters ... believing their own press that virtual options are equivalent to real options.

That's possible. A lot of women don't do a great job finding quality within their 1,000 options online. This is true of even 35 year olds who have nearly 20 years of mating environment experience.

One can believe they're abundant all day long looking at their virtual money account with +1$M in it. But when reality hits (bills, expenses) one realizes that abundance is imaginary. It's the same with those 1,000 options ... how many of them can she really connect with and give her a committed relationship and orgasms?

I think taking videos from 'empowered' women and swipe apps statistics at face value and Youtubers that keep harping on how bad is it for guys in the dating world and how good women have it is a disservice for clueless guys out there.

The reason people make videos like this....

...is because it is reflective of the typical man's dating experience. The typical man who does not have a useful social circle is having a difficult time arranging first dates and getting into relationships by using swipe apps, DMing on social media, or approaching strangers. Even co-ed sports leagues and hobbies are often low ROI.

 

[Robert28]

I’m 40 and I STRUGGLE with women in their 30’s and 40’s. It’s always something I’m not doing or they act flakey on me or just aren’t interested in me. But yet I can pickup women in their 20’s and have had way more success dating them. Hell I went to a concert last night with a girl who’s 28 and you should have seen the looks I got from women in their 30’s and 40’s. Pure jealousy and disgust, you could see it in their faces when they’d walk by and look at me. But if I tried to date then they’d dump me or point out some perceived flaw about me that’s a “deal breaker” for them that apparently the 28 yr old doesn’t see or cares about. If I stuck to dating women my age my self esteem would be shot.

 

[Solomon]

They claim the bar is low, yet they pass over guys who don't look "hot" that meet many of their other criteria.

However if they met these guys in their social circle, there is a high probability they would start dating at some point since looks become less important the longer a woman knows you and the more time they spend with you.

They are short circuiting their potential happiness with their unrealistic "checklists" of "Must Haves" while they offer little to nothing of value in return.

I've noticed 3 things these women do

1. They "Settle"--they finally give in but make no mistake it's not by choice and they always keep their eyes open just "in case"
2. They double down and ride the carousel even harder
3. They finally in *rare* situations finally do get Chad or Tyrone (this is the part the RP never talks about)

 

[Solomon]

I’m 40 and I STRUGGLE with women in their 30’s and 40’s. It’s always something I’m not doing or they act flakey on me or just aren’t interested in me. But yet I can pickup women in their 20’s and have had way more success dating them. Hell I went to a concert last night with a girl who’s 28 and you should have seen the looks I got from women in their 30’s and 40’s. Pure jealousy and disgust, you could see it in their faces when they’d walk by and look at me. But if I tried to date then they’d dump me or point out some perceived flaw about me that’s a “deal breaker” for them that apparently the 28 yr old doesn’t see or cares about. If I stuck to dating women my age my self esteem would be shot.

Bro you're in the best spot I get it you're using this post as an example but I hope you honestly don't give a F about these women thinking
You're winning, next time they look at you look them in the eye and smile and keep it pushing

 

[FlirtLife]

That chart is a nice theoretical model but doesn't hold up well in the real world.

If it were true, then you wouldn't see a bunch of 30s-40s men acting like pusssy beggars. The typical guy is his 30s-40s is a pusssy beggar for mediocre women close to his own age.

If men's SMVs peak at 36 and women's SMVs peak at 23, then someone could make the point that 36 year old men would be pairing off with 23 year old women. Who is the typical 36 year old male dating? Some post peak 33-35 year old.

A typical 35-40 year old woman can have 1,000 men expressing themselves as options for her on Tinder/Hinge/Bumble. Name a 35-40 year old man that has a queue of 1,000 matches in his swipe app profiles.

Very fair criticism, and probably more accurate than Tomassi's SMV graph to describe most of the U.S. now. But I wouldn't focus on quantity, on "1,000 men". In a later post [1] you elaborate "there are actually some decent options within those 1,000 matches", which leads to "Most women now operate from an abundance mindset". Taking both of your posts together, I am interpreting your view as most women in their 30s have high quality options on Tinder that most men in their 30s lack.

Some men are richer and better looking than others, so their peak in an SMV graph is much higher than average. Women in their 30s operating "from an abundance mindset" [1] could be holding out for these men, in which case "1,000 matches" doesn't do them much good. That would explain the SMV graph, your "1,000 matches" example and also the women in the video. Even if women have "1,000 men", it is possible they only want the same 5 men that all of them have matched. The roles could be flipped for the men they actually want to date, and their "1,000 matches" don't reflect that.


[1]

In 2014, Roosh wrote an article about The Wall being softer than most men think it is.

The Wall Is Softer Than We Think

Those 1,000 matches a 35 year old woman has are not worthless. Because she has so many options, there are actually some decent options within those 1,000 matches.

Most women now operate from an abundance mindset. They can see their 1,000 options at any given time on a swipe app or in her Instagram inbox. Most men still operate from a scarcity mindset.

There are plenty of men who will commit to a childless 35 year old woman if she isn't fat. Even 35 year old single moms with children under 10 can still have a decent quantity of options.

 

[SW15]

more accurate than Tomassi's SMV graph to describe most of the U.S. now.

Tomassi's SMV graph was never accurate, even in the early 2010s when it was first released.

It is only applicable to a small subset of men.

The average 30 something man doesn't experience much of a change in his dating fortunes around his mid to late 30s.

 

[Gamisch]

I’m 40 and I STRUGGLE with women in their 30’s and 40’s. It’s always something I’m not doing or they act flakey on me or just aren’t interested in me. But yet I can pickup women in their 20’s and have had way more success dating them. Hell I went to a concert last night with a girl who’s 28 and you should have seen the looks I got from women in their 30’s and 40’s. Pure jealousy and disgust, you could see it in their faces when they’d walk by and look at me. But if I tried to date then they’d dump me or point out some perceived flaw about me that’s a “deal breaker” for them that apparently the 28 yr old doesn’t see or cares about. If I stuck to dating women my age my self esteem would be shot.

The younger a person is the less scars they'll have. At some piont a 30+ y.o woman dated ( in her opinion) all types of men TWICE.

Unfair to you, but she'll probably categorize you and give you a superficial label that isn't even correct . E.g player, provider, badboy, emotionally unavailable, rich ,poor ect.

Besides the fact women are better looking when they're younger, they'll also have less emotional baggage. The better 30y.o + options will simply be off the market. Its a damn catch 22 unfortunately.

I've noticed 3 things these women do

1. They "Settle"--they finally give in but make no mistake it's not by choice and they always keep their eyes open just "in case"
2. They double down and ride the carousel even harder
3. They finally in *rare* situations finally do get Chad or Tyrone (this is the part the RP never talks about)

Yeah because when they do find option 3, this option will probably "make use" of her option 1. Chad or Tyrone will also keep his options open at all time and look for better opportunities .

The rp doesnt talk about this because going from being Chad with a abundance mindset back to blue pill is a big L in life. Especially when you know the woman lived option 2 ( riding the CC ) before she settled with you..no pride in that shyte

 

[Robert28]

The younger a person is the less scars they'll have. At some piont a 30+ y.o woman dated ( in her opinion) all types of men TWICE.

Unfair to you, but she'll probably categorize you and give you a superficial label that isn't even correct . E.g player, provider, badboy, emotionally unavailable, rich ,poor ect.

Besides the fact women are better looking when they're younger, they'll also have less emotional baggage. The better 30y.o + options will simply be off the market. Its a damn catch 22 unfortunately.


Yeah because when they do find option 3, this option will probably "make use" of her option 1. Chad or Tyrone will also keep his options open at all time and look for better opportunities .

The rp doesnt talk about this because going from being Chad with a abundance mindset back to blue pill is a big L in life. Especially when you know the woman lived option 2 ( riding the CC ) before she settled with you..no pride in that shyte

You make an excellent point. I noticed when I did online dating the women I went out with in their 30’s were serial daters. Like you’d get 2 dates at most and then they’d start acting flakey on you, but they would always be on there making a “new profile”. Had one tell me “I need you to be present in the moment, I need a partner” which is weird because we’d only been out twice and it wasn’t like I was being quiet or anything on the date. She’s still single btw lol I just found it frustrating now women in their 30’s would pick me apart but the women I went out with in their 20’s didn’t do that at all. I don’t know what generation current women who are 30-39 are but they are some of the most fuvcked up people I’ve ever encountered. All of them.

 

[Gamisch]

You make an excellent point. I noticed when I did online dating the women I went out with in their 30’s were serial daters. Like you’d get 2 dates at most and then they’d start acting flakey on you, but they would always be on there making a “new profile”. Had one tell me “I need you to be present in the moment, I need a partner” which is weird because we’d only been out twice and it wasn’t like I was being quiet or anything on the date. She’s still single btw lol I just found it frustrating now women in their 30’s would pick me apart but the women I went out with in their 20’s didn’t do that at all. I don’t know what generation current women who are 30-39 are but they are some of the most fuvcked up people I’ve ever encountered. All of them.

It takes real life experiences to find out about this.

I recently got banned from the subreddit exredpill haha. Because women collectively refuse to take responsibility and always look at it from a individual pov rather than a collective one. If you would say this on reddit tons of angry women will chime in and say that YOU are jaded and broken, not them!

Women want what they want right away. I said this before, but the most amazing thing about this is that these women will do to you what they dont like themselves. They'll push and pressure you into a relationship, completely oblivious they'll get negative results.

I might like a woman untill she starts pushing me to be exclusive. Especially if this happens within the first month of meeting her. It's also humiliating when a woman thinks you are a provider whose been waiting for her your entire life. Dating apps especially, are not much different from slow speed dating. You check each other out , knowingly you both might have other options.

30/50 y.o women are jaded AF nowedays.

 

[tightgrp]

30/50 y.o women are jaded AF nowedays.

And useless AF with all kinds of baggage.

 

[FlirtLife]

Tomassi's SMV graph was never accurate, even in the early 2010s when it was first released.

It is only applicable to a small subset of men.

The average 30 something man doesn't experience much of a change in his dating fortunes around his mid to late 30s.

Women in their early 20s look much hotter to me than women in their 40s. When you state "Tomassi's SMV graph was never accurate", you're also disputing the sexual market value of women in that graph - I disagree. Even if you argue the Wall is softer, the videos I've seen of women hitting the wall argue it exists - as shown in that SMV graph.

Tomassi created that SMV graph before Tinder. Tinder and Instagram have made an enormous impact on dating. Most of this forum's views would get banned on social media - so even if the SMV graph was accurate, men aren't going to know about it. Is a man's SMV high if he doesn't know it? To take extreme examples, geeky billionaires don't marry supermodels - are they low SMV men, or just don't know their SMV?

 

[SW15]

When you state "Tomassi's SMV graph was never accurate", you're also disputing the sexual market value of women in that graph - I disagree. Even if you argue the Wall is softer, the videos I've seen of women hitting the wall argue it exists - as shown in that SMV graph.

Go look at a 35 year old's woman options. They are more plentiful than a 35 year old man's options. Mostly any 35 or 40 year old woman has more of a quantity of options than a 35 year old or 40 year old man. Their swipe queues are fuller, their Instagram DMs are more plentiful, and their Twitter/LinkedIn DMs are also more plentiful. Mostly every woman who is at least semi active on LinkedIn is getting date offers, even women using LinkedIn who are married with children and not looking for new penis.

It gets more difficult to assess women's quantity of options at 30+ or 35+ when you consider the quality of these options. Most women 3-30+ need to drop their ridiculously high standards. Even when they drop their standards, they'll still end up with a pretty good deal. A woman who wants a $150,000-$200,000 year earning guy can end up with a decent man making $75,000-$100,000 if she's willing to drop her standards. She can get that commitment and that's not that bad. The problem is that a lot of women refuse to drop their absurdly high standards.

When women in their 30s and early 40s complain about their dating woes, it's almost always self inflicted. Women in their 30s and early 40s still enjoy a great deal of options. Because they still have abundance, they can still get something decent, even if they have to drop their standards as compared to 10 years earlier in their lives.

Most men in their 30s are dropping their standards at their "peak SMV". The typical 35-40 year old man at "peak SMV" is dating some washed up 35-40 year old woman, not some woman 6-10 years younger. Most men come to a point where they have to choose between some mediocre woman 2 years younger or incel/AFC with long drought status so they end up picking the mediocre, similarly aged woman so that they can get regular sex.

Tomassi created that SMV graph before Tinder. Tinder and Instagram have made an enormous impact on dating. Most of this forum's views would get banned on social media - so even if the SMV graph was accurate, men aren't going to know about it. Is a man's SMV high if he doesn't know it? To take extreme examples, geeky billionaires don't marry supermodels - are they low SMV men, or just don't know their SMV?

Tinder and Instagram only accelerated already existing trends from the late 2000s/early 2010s.

OkCupid and Plenty of Fish were around when he created the SMV graph. Women's inboxes were flooded on OkCupid and Plenty of Fish back in 2010. That's part of the reason Tinder was created. Women were dealing with so many unwanted messages on those websites. On swipe apps, they only get messaged from men they find attractive (the top 5%). The lesser attractive men are temporarily in her swipe queue until she swipes left. All the stuff men complain about on swipe apps were things that were happening on OkCupid, Plenty of Fish, and Match in 2010.

I think the main difference is that a smaller % of the population used OkCupid and Plenty of Fish in 2010 as compared to what happened with the swipe apps later in the 2010s and beyond.

As for Instagram, it's a similar story. Before Instagram, thirsty men were sending DMs on Facebook and Twitter. Instagram just exploded that.

Women in their early 20s look much hotter to me than women in their 40s.

Agree

 

[FlirtLife]

Women in their early 20s look much hotter to me than women in their 40s. When you state "Tomassi's SMV graph was never accurate", you're also disputing the sexual market value of women in that graph - I disagree. Even if you argue the Wall is softer, the videos I've seen of women hitting the wall argue it exists - as shown in that SMV graph.

A woman's attractiveness is decided by men, not women. I'm viewing the pink SMV graph as being how men view women - their attractiveness, rather than who men date. I quoted this part of my earlier post because I think we talked past each other.

Go look at a 35 year old's woman options. They are more plentiful than a 35 year old man's options.
...
It gets more difficult to assess women's quantity of options at 30+ or 35+ when you consider the quality of these options
...
When women in their 30s and early 40s complain about their dating woes, it's almost always self inflicted.
...
Most men in their 30s are dropping their standards at their "peak SMV". The typical 35-40 year old man at "peak SMV" is dating some washed up 35-40 year old woman, not some woman 6-10 years younger. Most men come to a point where they have to choose between some mediocre woman 2 years younger or incel/AFC with long drought status so they end up picking the mediocre, similarly aged woman so that they can get regular sex.

As I understand it, women's opinions don't matter in the pink SMV graph. Men's dating options are also not the SMV graph - it is simply how attractive women are at various ages, according to men. Maybe this is why you called the SMV graph "never correct", because you do not view it as men rating the attractiveness of women at various ages - but that's how I view the pink SMV graph.

Something I only realized in this discussion is that I was looking at the blue SMV graph (for men) incorrectly - it can only be decied by women: how do women perceive men's attractiveness as they get older.

Women in their early 20s look much hotter to me than women in their 40s.

Agree

Does this signal some agreement with the pink SMV graph? I thought you called the entire SMV graph "never accurate", meaning both pink and blue parts.

Tinder and Instagram only accelerated already existing trends from the late 2000s/early 2010s.

OkCupid and Plenty of Fish were around when he created the SMV graph. Women's inboxes were flooded on OkCupid and Plenty of Fish back in 2010. That's part of the reason Tinder was created. Women were dealing with so many unwanted messages on those websites. On swipe apps, they only get messaged from men they find attractive (the top 5%). The lesser attractive men are temporarily in her swipe queue until she swipes left. All the stuff men complain about on swipe apps were things that were happening on OkCupid, Plenty of Fish, and Match in 2010.

I think the main difference is that a smaller % of the population used OkCupid and Plenty of Fish in 2010 as compared to what happened with the swipe apps later in the 2010s and beyond.

As for Instagram, it's a similar story. Before Instagram, thirsty men were sending DMs on Facebook and Twitter. Instagram just exploded that.

You're right that online dating akready made an impact back in 2010-2012 when Tomassi published his SMV graph. Online dating was how 20% of couples met in 2010 (tied for 2nd/3rd with restaurants/bars), and has spiked to 40% now (1st place). Instagram definitely exploded - from being bought for $1 billion in 2012, to having over $50 billion in revenues last year.

This Graph Showing How Couples Meet Is A Reflection Of How Wild The Modern Dating World Is

If you’re single, and on the prowl, what’s your strategy when it comes to meeting a significant other? If it’s through friends, co-workers or family, you might be hitting a dead end. According to this graph from a Stanford University Paper on how heterosexual couples in the U.S. met over an...

goat.com.au

Correct me if this is wrong, but I think the blue SMV graph captures money & status accelerating quickly from 20s to 30s. As those level off in a man's 30s, suddenly middle age looks tear down his SMV value in his 40s, where the blue SMV graph falls off again. All of which is for women to decide - not me.

When you talk of the top 5% of men on swipe apps, I wonder if women are solely basing that on looks, or if they also look for travel pics to decide if a man also has some money. A very early question on most dates is "What do you do?", which tends to give a lot of information about a guy's earning potential. Women could be filtering by looks, then filtering by money/status in person.

 

[Ricky]

I was talking to one of my best guy friends over the weekend. He met up with our mutual friend Jackie and her new boyfriend on Saturday. Jackie is 42 never been married, no kids. Real nice woman but a little bit crazy. Jackie told me a year or two ago that her longest relationship was 6 months.

So i asked my buddy about her new boyfriend. Turns out the guy is 55, has two young kids (both less than 7) and is recently divorced. I'm happy for the guy and Jackie. Not sure how long it will last. I would have assumed from SMV that Jackie who stays fit and is youthful would be able to find a guy without kids her age.