Marriage...

[Thewolfquest]

Hello, it has been years since I turned to the forums but I need someone who sees the forest right now.

About 10 years ago, I was very much into gaming. I was 100% in person only. I mainly did bars, clubs, or street. I was at a point where I could walk into a place pick who I wanted and make out with at a minimum. I was very adaptable and as elaborate as the situation required me.

Ok, so here I was out on my own post-college, when one night I was out I made eye contact with the woman who would later become my wife. I saw her and went for it. The night I met her I only talked to her for about 2 minutes - I put my number on her phone and walked away. We texted, within one week we had our first date and it never stopped. I dropped other girls I was talking with after that first date.

We eventually married and were happy, even after I confessed I had an affair she stayed and we had a few good years until now. The last couple of months I have just been going crazy. During our marriage I regularly worked out so was muscular, I was a high earner, I was a provider and built a very very comfortable life, I regularly went out , I was not a pushover basically what I wanted was done, I was not the jealous type during our relationship (although now I catch myself actively telling myself that even if she's talking with others it isn't any of my business anymore) We used to joke that - I do what I want, when I want, how I want - which to be honest really seems to be part of our problem now. So this hopefully paints a picture of who I am.

If it matters, I was her first, her first long term relationship, she has a high sex drive, and thorough out our marriage she was supportive of all my goals, dreams etc. she was low maintenance and very loyal.

Our first month apart, things were going downhill but we still were trying... she asked for space I failed miserably and was needy. The second month we had no contact (zero), when we finally saw each other it was so intense - just emotionally. Over the next week we f'ed left and right, anyplace we could. I saw her and she saw me, it was just as intense emotionally as it was sexually. Then snap. She dropped it on me...she said we were done even if she still had feelings about me.

And this is where I struggle - We still talk and fk regularly, I know I am still her go to person when she wants to share with someone, we have gone out, we still spend the night together, on nights apart we talk for long periods of time on the phone - she shares plans about the short term future together and still says things like I want to grow old with you, when we see each other it is nonstop hand holding, kissing, cuddling, when we are out she constantly grooms me but will say she does not want PDA. She says she does not want to be together at this point. She says she does not trust me... I have resolved to just being there for her regardless.

This is the woman I love and do not want to lose even if it takes a while to rebuild that trust. On the other side of this I also feel that regardless of feeling she may not be meant to be a part of this next stage of my life which is upsetting...I am at a loss....I have been approaching new women just to distract myself - but it is just not the same. At the same time I feel that I am quite possible becoming a 2nd option hence the no PDA and am being given false hope.

On one hand I know that I need to walk away, have zero contact and focus on moving on and that this may win her back or if nothing else help me preserve my self-worth but also at a huge risk that with this particular situation it will be a turn off since trust is an issue. On the other hand I know that this is not a game and I need to be there for her no matter what she is going thru and that this too may win her heart and trust back.

I have been trying to play both hands but I am not sure....which is pretty beta...my gut says to be a friend for now, it is what she needs and enjoy my newfound singleness... but is this the right call?

 

[SW15]

Welcome to the forum!

You're 31 years old. That's a solid age from an attraction-seduction point of view. Women in their 20s are still realistic options. It also helps that you are a high earner and muscular.

You didn't mention having kids while being married. So, if you escaped this marriage childless, that's an achievement. That will help you in going forward.

About 8-9 years ago, you were a new college graduate. It was a great time. You met some sexy gal while out in a bar/nightclub. You had a good run with her for a few years. Then, things got stale. You fuccked some other chick.

Your biggest problem was getting married to her and staying in the relationship. At best, this was a relationship that ran its course in about 4-5 years. A 4-5 year long romantic relationship with no kids and no marriage is an noteworthy achievement.

You were too blue pill in putting a ring on it. Most relationships have a shelf life of goodness, which is around 5 years. You could be proud of yourself that you got 5 good years out of a woman. Doing those 5 years without a marital commitment would have been better.

From this moment forward, you need to cut this woman out of your life completely. You're separated now and it's obvious you two have no marital future together. File for divorce, hire a lawyer, and let the lawyers hash out the details. You need to move on and the best way to move on is having no contact with her. Consider your fortunate that you didn't have kids with her and you would need to co-parent together for the rest of your lives.

You'll be happier with a clean break.

 

[Thewolfquest]

Brings back memories…. Always care less and always next. Been years.

 

[Slowhandluke]

You're 31 years old.

Enough said.. stop being a pu55y and move on. You lost your MOJO. Regain it and she will come back. You might not want her then though.

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

My take will differ from many of the guys…

This is a quality woman who you wifed up. You broke the trust by having an affair. This is what happens when you break the trust. You punished her for her loyalty and threw away your marriage. If she was a virgin when you guys got together you have betrayed her in the most hurtful, awful way. You have showed her as I said, that her sexual loyalty was not valued by you. To a woman like this that is a devastating blow.

What you don’t understand is how good you had it, how rare women like her are.

She needed respect, trust, security and loyalty from you. You did not give her those things and did not respect her. So part of her respecting herself is leaving behind those who disrespect her. That includes you.

You must decide what you really want long term. If it is your relationship with her then you must behave differently. More “alpha” means the same disloyal ass hole behavior from her perspective. But you also cannot be a wuss. If you want to repair things you are going to have to lay your cards entirely on the table. You must be brutally honest with yourself and with her. If you cannot take that risk you are going to lose her for good to a man who appreciates what she is.

I know personally a man like you. He lost a great woman by insisting that he be able to do as he pleased whatever whenever. No great woman is going to tolerate that. He lost his wife after they divorced. She remarried nine months later and remains happily married to her second husband. He knows he blew it, and he knows what a great woman he lost. And he has not found another like her.

She is leaving to respect herself. If you cannot become worthy of her trust & respect and be willing to respect her and be loyal?

You’ll lose her. And some other man who recognizes her quality will snatch her up.

Digest that. I’m being very direct as you need to see this. Taking off on a flight. More later if you are serious about salvaging this.

Being a player & dating around will further disgust & disrespect her. It will push her away.

 

[zekko]

This is a quality woman who you wifed up. You broke the trust by having an affair. This is what happens when you break the trust. You punished her for her loyalty and threw away your marriage. If she was a virgin when you guys got together you have betrayed her in the most hurtful, awful way. You have showed her as I said, that her sexual loyalty was not valued by you. To a woman like this that is a devastating blow.

I wish this was something that was stressed more in the manosphere. Instead, they push the "I'm an alpha male, I must have sex with whoever I want whenever I want, even if I'm married" angle while demanding that women stay faithful. When Rollo was here, he used to frequently say that "women want a man who could cheat. But don't". In other words, an attractive guy with options. Too often here, they translate as "women want a man who will cheat". Period.

Obviously, I know couples where the guy cheated and it broke up the relationship. I also know couples where the guy cheated, and they stayed together (or got back together), but the relationship was never the same, it was damaged. I've always said the man is the leader, he must model appropriate behavior. If a man can't have self discipline over his desires, how can you expect a woman to? The man must set the standard.

 

[Slowhandluke]

I wish this was something that was stressed more in the manosphere. Instead, they push the "I'm an alpha male, I must have sex with whoever I want whenever I want, even if I'm married" angle while demanding that women stay faithful. When Rollo was here, he used to frequently say that "women want a man who could cheat. But don't". In other words, an attractive guy with options. Too often here, they translate as "women want a man who will cheat". Period.

Obviously, I know couples where the guy cheated and it broke up the relationship. I also know couples where the guy cheated, and they stayed together (or got back together), but the relationship was never the same, it was damaged. I've always said the man is the leader, he must model appropriate behavior. If a man can't have self discipline over his desires, how can you expect a woman to? The man must set the standard.

I don't subscribe to this theory. The French society use to have mistresses and this was only a generation or two ago. In china and parts of south east Asia - there were "minor" and "major" wives. Guess what, these societies survived and the wife did not breakup the marriage. This was only a few generation ago. There are numerous examples of this throughout history.

Guys are not women and women are not men. Guys have a drive to have sex with different women. Women don't have this drive. To "domesticate" men so they "set the standard" by not cheating is like asking women to be cut down trees so there can be a clearing for log cabins and a house. Just like how men can have sex with multiple women and not "be damaged" while women can.

I applaud those men who don't cheat even though they have the opportunity, but that is not how life is.

I personally feel men are built to have one wife who he bonds with emotionally.... and multiple flings. The whole monogamous thing doesn't really work with most men. Just a fact of life. To insist on this is only to provide more reasons for broken families and lower marriage rates. The whole monogamous thing hasn't really work at all for men -- there has always been cheating and the perfunctory forgiveness that women have given to men and life continues; UNTIL quite recently which has changed male and female dynamics for the worse..

 

[2Rocky]

I'm going to tell you this place is too toxic for maintaining a relationship...I'd Steer clear...

Check out Athol Kay

 

[Thewolfquest]

Advice from the old lady:

My take will differ from many of the guys…

This is a quality woman who you wifed up. You broke the trust by having an affair. This is what happens when you break the trust. You punished her for her loyalty and threw away your marriage. If she was a virgin when you guys got together you have betrayed her in the most hurtful, awful way. You have showed her as I said, that her sexual loyalty was not valued by you. To a woman like this that is a devastating blow.

What you don’t understand is how good you had it, how rare women like her are.

She needed respect, trust, security and loyalty from you. You did not give her those things and did not respect her. So part of her respecting herself is leaving behind those who disrespect her. That includes you.

You must decide what you really want long term. If it is your relationship with her then you must behave differently. More “alpha” means the same disloyal ass hole behavior from her perspective. But you also cannot be a wuss. If you want to repair things you are going to have to lay your cards entirely on the table. You must be brutally honest with yourself and with her. If you cannot take that risk you are going to lose her for good to a man who appreciates what she is.

I know personally a man like you. He lost a great woman by insisting that he be able to do as he pleased whatever whenever. No great woman is going to tolerate that. He lost his wife after they divorced. She remarried nine months later and remains happily married to her second husband. He knows he blew it, and he knows what a great woman he lost. And he has not found another like her.

She is leaving to respect herself. If you cannot become worthy of her trust & respect and be willing to respect her and be loyal?

You’ll lose her. And some other man who recognizes her quality will snatch her up.

Digest that. I’m being very direct as you need to see this. Taking off on a flight. More later if you are serious about salvaging this.

Being a player & dating around will further disgust & disrespect her. It will push her away.

This is what I fear. I recognize it. I am not sure how to deal with it. Am I to be change and become someone worthy? I do fear that this isn’t just a case of “oneitis” but like I said I know that sometimes we can’t see the forest for the trees and it may just be misguided… which is why I am here.

As per my first post my gut tells me to be a friend, to just be there for her as long as she wants. I get that men have to just lead and do whatever but in this case I have a strong feeling that I need to just be stable and be there

 

[SW15]

When Rollo was here, he used to frequently say that "women want a man who could cheat. But don't". In other words, an attractive guy with options.

This is perfect.

 

[BeExcellent]

I appreciate your candor and honesty. In a perfect world what is it you want with her and for your life? Not what you think you need to do now, but what do you want?

Have you asked her straight up what it would take for you guys to sort things out? Have you asked her straight up what she needs from you? If you ask this you need to listen well pay careful attention to what she says. People here will say 'oh women don't know what they want', etc. Oh yes. A woman worth having knows exactly what she wants. Her communication skills may or may not be attuned but she knows.

Women do not want to be embarrassed and disrespected if they are solid people. I know I don't put up with that.

But first you need to be honest with YOU. You cheated for some reason. Part of that is a character flaw (or else you had no business being a married man), and part of that is something else. Entitlement, unmet needs, poor communication, etc etc. Any number of things that only you two know.

To salvage this is not an easy road. But depending on the two of you it might be a worthwhile journey. I'm going to recommend a book that I sometime refer people to on here.

Passionate Marriage. Google it. It is a meaty read. I also like both Ester Perel and Jordan Peterson on relationships, and also Russell Brand. Figure out what you want. If you don't know what direction you want to go, then you'll never figure out how to get there. You cannot just cast about with this situation or she will vanish. She KNOWS what she wants. Sort out what you want first. Only then is it worth figuring out if what she wants lines up with that and if the working through things is worthwhile, because it will not be easy.

 

[zekko]

Guys are not women and women are not men. Guys have a drive to have sex with different women. Women don't have this drive.

If men can give in to their desires, why shouldn't women give in to their desires? Maybe the girls want more attention, maybe they want the emotional high of an affair. For all this reasoning about men having the drive to have sex with different women, the manosphere will tell you that women cheat more. So what if they do it for different reasons? Although some women just like the sex, too.

Another thing about old French society, women were more like property and did not have the power to leave their husbands. Today many women earn more than their men, and will not put up with him straying. Of course every individual is different. I've always said that the reason men's patriarchal leadership was taken from them is because they did not lead well. Giving in to their purulent passions is just a part of this. I realize this is an unpopular opinion in a time when anything goes - when people can change their sexual orientations or genders at a drop of a hat, or twerk in a child's face at a Pride parade.

 

[Slowhandluke]

I understand this mindset, and as long as both parties agree to it, there's nothing bad or wrong with it imo. What IS wrong is NOT being open about it, going behind his wife's back, lying, deceiving, cheating which goes against the very sanctity of marriage.

Society was never "ok" with infidelity. Just because we as humans are not perfect, doesn't mean we can't strive for it. However to expect it as society now expects it is unnatural.

The average person does not want an open marriage nor as the average person expects to cheat. It's just the goal. The proof is in the history of mankind. Cheating happens.. the secretary who's also the mistress happens.. chose a place in history, and it happens. The only difference is forgiveness and looking the other way. The "sanctity of marriage" is just a goal...

Now feminist are saying "no". You must be faithful 100% or else you are shiet. There is no compassion for the average man and his inate being. However, life is not so simple.

.. through marriage laws, divorce courts, etc.. etc.. men can see the picture. They see the divorce rate. They see the uncompassion in it all. I postulate this is one of the reasons why marriage rates are down but the "hooking up" culture is up. It's like saying, you must be 100% perfect when we get married, but you can be 50% perfect while dating (multidating, checking out sexual compatibility, etc.). As a man, he will have a tendency to date arround. Why risk it all when the woman in a way expects the impossible (yeah a few people will not cheat, but those are the exceptions and not the rule).

Heck, even if he does think it might be possible, in the back of his head he will think, this woman will not forgive me... what if I'm wrong and do give into temptation? He has to be extra sure she is the right girl and ultimately he may not find that person and ends up dating a lot of women never to settle down.

Definition of cheating -- the act or an instance of fraudulently deceiving : deception.

Yeah, the above would be the definition of cheating. Through out time it has occurred, but it was never used as a weapon like it is being used now by women. Congratulations women, more of you have involuntary decided to be cat ladies.

These women lack compassion - a very feminine trait and most will not be wifed up.

 

[Reyaj]

I wish this was something that was stressed more in the manosphere. Instead, they push the "I'm an alpha male, I must have sex with whoever I want whenever I want, even if I'm married" angle while demanding that women stay faithful. When Rollo was here, he used to frequently say that "women want a man who could cheat. But don't". In other words, an attractive guy with options. Too often here, they translate as "women want a man who will cheat". Period.

Obviously, I know couples where the guy cheated and it broke up the relationship. I also know couples where the guy cheated, and they stayed together (or got back together), but the relationship was never the same, it was damaged. I've always said the man is the leader, he must model appropriate behavior. If a man can't have self discipline over his desires, how can you expect a woman to? The man must set the standard.

Cheating for a man is biologically acceptable IMHO. Getting caught is another story...

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Advice from the old lady:

My take will differ from many of the guys…

This is a quality woman who you wifed up. You broke the trust by having an affair. This is what happens when you break the trust. You punished her for her loyalty and threw away your marriage. If she was a virgin when you guys got together you have betrayed her in the most hurtful, awful way. You have showed her as I said, that her sexual loyalty was not valued by you. To a woman like this that is a devastating blow.

What you don’t understand is how good you had it, how rare women like her are.

She needed respect, trust, security and loyalty from you. You did not give her those things and did not respect her. So part of her respecting herself is leaving behind those who disrespect her. That includes you.

You must decide what you really want long term. If it is your relationship with her then you must behave differently. More “alpha” means the same disloyal ass hole behavior from her perspective. But you also cannot be a wuss. If you want to repair things you are going to have to lay your cards entirely on the table. You must be brutally honest with yourself and with her. If you cannot take that risk you are going to lose her for good to a man who appreciates what she is.

I know personally a man like you. He lost a great woman by insisting that he be able to do as he pleased whatever whenever. No great woman is going to tolerate that. He lost his wife after they divorced. She remarried nine months later and remains happily married to her second husband. He knows he blew it, and he knows what a great woman he lost. And he has not found another like her.

She is leaving to respect herself. If you cannot become worthy of her trust & respect and be willing to respect her and be loyal?

You’ll lose her. And some other man who recognizes her quality will snatch her up.

Digest that. I’m being very direct as you need to see this. Taking off on a flight. More later if you are serious about salvaging this.

Being a player & dating around will further disgust & disrespect her. It will push her away.

If she remarried after 9 months she was already on her way out and likely dating that guy and banging him prior to divorcing

 

[EyeBRollin]

We eventually married and were happy, even after I confessed I had an affair she stayed and we had a few good years until now.

Guy... come on.

Look men, if you are going to have an affair take it to your grave.

STOP being honest about shvt like that. That is information she has to do something about. Your problem OP was you assumed this woman was over your affair. Instead, she built up enough resentment to where she could leave you. Soon as she got the opportunity that is exactly what she did.

 

[EyeBRollin]

I understand this mindset, and as long as both parties agree to it, there's nothing bad or wrong with it imo. What IS wrong is NOT being open about it, going behind his wife's back, lying, deceiving, cheating which goes against the very sanctity of marriage.

To be clear about what I mean by "sanctity of marriage," I don't mean having sex with others, again as long as it's mutually agreed upon, there is no "wrong" being committed nor cheating. No vows broken assuming monogamy and remaining faithful were NOT part of the marital vows. Plenty of open marriages around. Not my cup of tea but they do work for many couples believe it or not.

But rather the deception and cheating if a man chooses to not disclose his desire for this type of marital arrangement and his wife not agreeing to it.

Frankly, I think this is bullshvt to serve the female imperative. I don't know why modern women think they get exclusive access to a mans dvck for the rest of his life. Evolutionary biology has proven this wrong for hundreds of thousands of years. If men have to be honest about the fact that all of us desire to fvck as many women as we possibly can, women should be honest about their body count and their appearance (no more make up and plastic surgeries). Demanding men be honest about that is deceptive in itself. It is to tilt the mating strategy to the female advantage.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Totally.

This “it’s better to be honest about cheating” myth is purely to smoke out BluePills who don’t understand the game.

Perception is reality and what momma don’t know won’t hurt her.

90% of the women know it's happening whether they are told it is or not. Guys who cheat and think their wives or girlfriends don't know are simply clueless.

 

[Slowhandluke]

I'm shocked some of yall advocate cheating and deception, why get married?

Because you want a family? You don't need marriage for that anymore. Stay single and love your kid(s) pass on your genes.

I don't advocate infidelity. I just see it for what it is. The goal is to be pure, to be uncorruptable; but alas most of us are only human.

Striving for the goal is admirable. It is the same reason a lot of us get up in the morning. It's a goal that encompasses our morals and ethics.

At the end of the day, we are all animals trying to be more than that by dressing up in fine clothes, eating fine food, trying to be more than just savages.

Strip man of his things, he is just naked.. he almost looks like any other mammal. Take away ethics and morals, and he's just another feral animal.

Yes, the question is: why get married?

A lot of people have decided not to because they are not perfect and don't want to be severely punish for merely being an average human.

 

[EyeBRollin]

If you're honest and mutually agree to open it up, which is not uncommon anymore, it's not cheating.

I'm shocked some of yall advocate cheating and deception, why get married?

As I said in the last post, mutually agreed upon is the key word here.

Men - pay close attention. The reason why women want this to be mutually agreed upon, why they want "honesty" is because it tilts the mating strategy in their favor. Women want the ability to decline being part of a rotation. Are women honest about what they look like when they wear makeup and get plastic surgery? Are they honest about their body count? Why do women require honesty from men when their entire mating strategy is based on deception?

Because you want a family? You don't need marriage for that anymore. Stay single and love your kid(s) pass on your genes.

Or choose to be open with your wife or girlfriend. She probably already knows anyway, if she's got a brain.

I will never understand why a man would choose deception, that's just plain fvckrd up imo.

What you are doing here is trying to play on male sensibilities of "honor." Male honor is between two men.