Observations on Phoenix's Scene

[SW15]

Phoenix, Arizona has become one of the biggest metropolitan areas in the United States. It has grown a lot in recent decades. The 2020 Census estimated that Maricopa County (covering most of Metro Phoenix) has a 4.4 million population. In 1990, Maricopa County only had 2.1 million people. Almost all of Metro Phoenix’s growth has occurred since the end of World War II, so the history of the area is rather limited for a lot of population, which does affect the life and the mating environment. Unlike other Sun Belt cities (Miami, Houston, Dallas, New Orleans), Phoenix did not grow until air conditioning became readily available. In 1950, not long after the end of WWII, Maricopa County only had 331,700 residents. When an area goes through explosive growth like Phoenix has, there’s an impact.

Metro Phoenix is one of the few metro areas in the USA where the suburbs are more active than the central city.

In most cities, the hubs of single life are closer to the downtown area of the major city of the metro area. In Metro Phoenix, the suburbs of Scottsdale (the southern part) and Tempe are the hubs of single life. This is due to Old Town Scottsdale and Arizona State University’s main campus being in Tempe. More detail on those soon.

This happened because Downtown Phoenix went through a rough patch in the 1970s and 1980s while Phoenix’s growth was taking off. Before ~1960, Phoenix was considered a smallish town. The metro would have been considered mid-sized in the 1970s and 1980s before only reaching major metro status in the 1990s. In the pre-1970 era, Phoenix had a vibrant downtown area and it felt like a city. However, because the metro area grew as the automobile and suburbanization were big trends, the urban core was a bit neglected for a while. This has gotten better recently and there are some good neighborhoods nearer to the center of Phoenix, the hubs of single life have become Old Town Scottsdale and Tempe in the Metro area.

Since the 1960s, Arizona State in Tempe grew into one of the biggest universities in the nation. It was a smaller, sleepier university until the 1960s when growth took off. There was land to expand it for a while. Now Arizona State has multiple campuses. The Tempe campus has been known as the campus that makes Arizona State’s party and sexy women reputation. The Tempe area is mostly Arizona State women and some recent graduates (first few years after graduation). The best day game option in Tempe is the Arizona State campus. It’s best to do on campus approaching while being an undergraduate or graduate student at Arizona State. Near campus Mill Avenue also provides day game options. Mill Avenue bars are the center of Tempe nightlife.

The Scottsdale scene is best in the southern half of the city, mainly Old Town Scottsdale. Old Town Scottsdale has a more upscale feeling than Tempe. It tends to attract a slightly older crowd and less of a student crowd than Tempe, but most Old Town bars will be the under 30 crowd. Day game can be done in Old Town as well, but typically at a fitness class studio. There’s not a ton of street game in Old Town Scottsdale. Scottsdale Fashion Square is a big mall at the northern end of Old Town and is probably a day game option, but many cities have many malls where day game can be done. North Scottsdale is more of a 33-50 year old female scene.

It would be possible to have a decent dating life focusing efforts around bars and some day game options in Phoenix’s city limits. If you choose to do things this way, you’ll deal with less bad female attitudes. There are a few hiking paths in the central part of the metro area that are unique spots for day game. They are Phoenix’s equivalent of the beach pickup scene in Southern California or beaches in the Miami and Tampa areas.

The Heat is Real and Affects All Aspects of Life, Including Seduction

From roughly April 15 to October 15, the heat in Phoenix is essentially intolerable and will force you to adjust your routines. Most every day during this period will have a high temperature 90 degrees + during this time. 100 degree + high temperatures start consistently around mid-May.

This makes it more difficult to run outdoor game sessions during this part of the year or have outdoor dates. It’s possible to go to a hiking trail at 6 AM in the summer when it is 75 degrees outside and do some approaching but that may not yield a lot of phone numbers and dates.

From October 15 to April 15, the late Fall, Winter, and early Spring are reasonably nice. The Phoenix (and Tucson) winters don’t live up to the hype. If you’re out at night in Phoenix in January, expect temperatures in the mid-30s to low 40s at 1-2 AM. That doesn’t happen in Miami or Tampa in the winter. There are still big variations in day and night temperatures in the desert, even though it’s not as drastic as it was 40 years ago when there was less development.

Hiking is a common early stage date in Metro Phoenix. The hiking paths and urban parks are options for both approaches and for first/second dates in the more comfortable months though I would guess that the hiking trails have more early stage dates than initial pickups happening. The parks are the better option for finding phone numbers and dates that would typically happen at a bar.

Good Looking Women, Bad Attitudes

The title above is the best way to describe the White women in Phoenix, particularly the White women one will most commonly encounter in nightlife venues in Scottsdale and Tempe.

The heat of the area is a motivator for women to look good because not a lot of clothes are worn. This makes appearance all the more important. It’s fair to say that Metro Phoenix is an environment characterized by superficiality and pretentiousness.

In conjunction with the heat, Phoenix is very transplant heavy. Few Phoenix area residents have long time roots in the area. You don’t see a lot of strong social circles of natives who grew up in the area. While there are some and having a circle would help, it’s just not common. This is also a contributing factor to the superficiality and pretentiousness in the area. When there are no social circle consequences for behavior, overall behavior tends to be worse.

You’re less likely to encounter these bad attitudes with Hispanic women in the area than White women.

If you want to limit the effects of these attitudes, meeting women through non-bar approaching or social circle will help as compared to the bar scene or the use of swipe apps.

Because superficiality matters a lot in Phoenix, having the right image helps a lot. Guys go to great lengths in the area to get material possessions to impress women. A fair number of women also get breast implants to compete with other women for the top guys in the area.

Is This a Good Place to Live?

For most people, the answer to this will be “No”.

Not only there is a mediocre mating environment due to the male surplus and subpar female attitudes, there is not a good base of corporate employment in Metro Phoenix. Few top companies have their headquarters in Metro Phoenix, so a lot of the general business jobs are lackluster. If your job is in the medical industry, Phoenix has a decent employment base. The medical industry has always done quite well in Phoenix due to the fact that the area is a hub for retirees needing medical services.

One of the primary reasons of recent decades to move to Phoenix no longer applies. From the mid-1990s to mid to late 2010s, the area was flooded by West Coasters (primarily Californians) and Chicagoans looking to escape higher cost areas. Rents and home prices in Metro Phoenix were affordable. Phoenix is no longer as affordable on housing costs and overall costs of living as it was 15-20 years ago.

The area is also in a fragile natural ecosystem. The area has been overdeveloped since at least 1990. There are significant water issues surrounding the Colorado River. This is a concern for nearby Tucson and Las Vegas as well.

While the areas offers the advantage of physically attractive women and mild winters, the disadvantages of the area (attitudes, employment, water/overall climate) outweigh the advantages in most cases.

 

[Jake_Gyllenhaal69]

Yeah Phoenix just seems like a cope city for California refugees. I also think the dry heat vs humidity is complete bull shvt. The heat over there is miles worse and it still felt like an over at night.

Coach Greg Adams highlighted the dating scene in Phoenix. He said a lot of hot girls that dropped out of Las Vegas and Southern California would go to Phoenix as last resort. In addition, he said the Wild West frontier trailer park attitude is still prevalent there.

 

[BeExcellent]

Hmmmm.

Decent summary. Not entirely accurate however. Will offer commentary later. Essentially the area that suits depends on your age, your target age, and your means.

Central Phoenix is currently experiencing a strong resurgence and there are also very hip areas in Phoenix such as Arcadia, Biltmore and Uptown that are super cool. There are also other suburb areas that have exploded onto the scene in recent years including Old Town Gilbert, Chandler, and Mess. Gilbert is a particular stand out. Walkable, very hip & cool.

Downtown has a younger vibe late and less pretentious than Scottsdale, but it is also an emerging gay nightlife scene. So the demographic there is varied on a number of axis’s including ethnicity and orientation. It’s an interesting hodgepodge for those secure in their manhood.

North Scottsdale is the place to hang out if you are 40s, 50s or older. Like San Diego or LA there are many fit beautiful women in older age groups because the area is conducive to a physically active lifestyle (golf, hiking, tennis, riding, cycling, running etc.) and people tend to get outside & exercise. There are many good venues along North Scottsdale Road, the Quarter and Kierland. It’s an Orange County feel without the ocean.

More later

 

[SW15]

Phoenix just seems like a cope city for California refugees.

Coach Greg Adams highlighted the dating scene in Phoenix. He said a lot of hot girls that dropped out of Las Vegas and Southern California would go to Phoenix as last resort.

Phoenix has been a common destination for Southern Californians for a long time. The same is true of Las Vegas. While a lot of people who move from Southern California to Phoenix/Las Vegas are married people with children, there are a decent number of singles that move from California.

The main difference between Phoenix and Las Vegas is the prevalence of the casino gambling industry. In Metro Phoenix, the casinos are on the edges of the metro area on tribal lands. In Phoenix, you wouldn't need to go to Las Vegas to have a casino experience. The Native American casinos replicate the casino environment. At least one of them has pool parties to mimic the Las Vegas pool party scene. The Las Vegas casinos are closer to more varied nightlife in general.

Phoenix is a little bit of a tamer environment than Las Vegas.

I also think the dry heat vs humidity is complete bull shvt. The heat over there is miles worse and it still felt like an over at night.

Hot is hot. The Phoenix heat, despite being dry, is miserable for about 6 months of the year.

In addition, he said the Wild West frontier trailer park attitude is still prevalent there.

Phoenix is losing a lot of its Wild West vibe. There are still plenty of trailer parks in East Mesa and Apache Junction. Scottsdale used to be a dusty Western town. It has developed into a suburb with nightlife and an attempt to be upscale.

Central Phoenix is currently experiencing a strong resurgence and there are also very hip areas in Phoenix such as Arcadia, Biltmore and Uptown that are super cool. There are also other suburb areas that have exploded onto the scene in recent years including Old Town Gilbert, Chandler, and Mess. Gilbert is a particular stand out. Walkable, very hip & cool.

Downtown has a younger vibe late and less pretentious than Scottsdale

This has gotten better recently and there are some good neighborhoods nearer to the center of Phoenix,

It would be possible to have a decent dating life focusing efforts around bars and some day game options in Phoenix’s city limits. If you choose to do things this way, you’ll deal with less bad female attitudes.

We've said similar things here. The Biltmore and Arcadia areas are decent areas. They have been good areas for a long time. It would be possible to be a younger single person (25-40) and solely focus on certain Central Phoenix areas, including Arcadia and Biltmore.

North Scottsdale is the place to hang out if you are 40s, 50s or older. Like San Diego or LA there are many fit beautiful women in older age groups because the area is conducive to a physically active lifestyle (golf, hiking, tennis, riding, cycling, running etc.) and people tend to get outside & exercise. There are many good venues along North Scottsdale Road, the Quarter and Kierland. It’s an Orange County feel without the ocean.

I wouldn't recommend North Scottsdale unless a man was looking for an older woman. Typically, that'd be an older man (40s-50s) looking for a 40s-50s woman. Yes, it'd be fair to say that it would resemble Orange County.

 

[derringerG]

This forum is getting serious. This is some highly detailed, fine grained analysis.

My main suggestion though is to try to get a bit more of the positives for each city. I think we are more likely to achieve this balance when multiple residents/visitors chime in. Otherwise, it reads a lot like this:

Pt 1: 10,000 words about every little thing
Pt 2: "yeah but it sucks for dating" womp, womp

It makes it almost pointless to even read the thing! As always, dating prospects are always heavily, almost exclusively SMV dependent. Guys below SMV6 are going to struggle, period. 6/7 level guys are gonna have to hustle. 8+ guys are going to have the widest variety of options.

No one is going to move to a city primarily to game (unless they are independently wealthy for life and game obsessed, an extremely tiny demographic). You move for a job and/or school and then do your best with the dating environment as it stands.

Every man can boost their SMV SIGNIFICANTLY. It's astonishing how few are willing to do so.

The point is, the "fun factor" is not an objective, fixed reality which is the same for everyone. It varies enormously based upon how attractive you are. Work on this and watch your odds improve, possibly drastically.

 

[sangheilios]

I've been living AZ since 2014, though not at all in the Phoenix metro.

@SW15

What you discussed about employment I feel is very true for the state as a whole, tons of just out of high schoolers from around the country will go to the UofA and ASU but very few of them actually stay after graduation. I feel this is kind of changing with the Phoenix metro area but it does not at all compare to Texas, which has seen some massive influx of companies from CA for instance. Tucson is definitely far worse in regard to this and I don't really see it changing all that much.

You are correct about the housing costs as well. In 2015 I bought my first house out here for 75k, it was a solid house but in need of some serious cosmetic work in a development located in a not so great part of town. Fixed it up and sold it for profit before moving to a better area for a home at 176k with only minor upgrades. Same house/neighborhood is worth close to 350k now and that's only 6 years later. This is even more so the case in certain parts of Phoenix and I can't see that changing anytime soon. The time to have moved here for the lower cost of living is long past and it's slowly becoming more on par with other major metro areas of the country.

Education system in AZ is not at all that great, thus high levels of under/unemployment, drugs, alcohol, crime, etc. in certain areas. This is also related to the heavy hispanic demographic and the proximity to the Mexican border. I've noticed that many of them still have their roots tied to that 3rd world country and much of their behavior and standard of living you can clearly see. Most immigrants to the U.S do not have this at all and within a generation or 2 they are Americanized.

The fakeness is for sure a real thing. I also feel that part of this is due to the high level of relative poverty that is in the state. When you are living in an area where everyone is well off no one cares that you are driving a BMW or go on vacations every couple months. However, when you are in an area that consists of a demographic that is heavily impoverished these things become impressive and attract attention. I feel men engage in flashy behavior in order to land women and be competitive in the dating market. I feel women become flashy with their attire, makeup, bodies, etc. in order to land a man that does well for himself, aka being a gold digger. I can personally cite dozens of examples of this.

The water issues you mention are a real thing but this is not actually limited to AZ but much of the western U.S is experiencing this.

Positives of this state. The dry climate I personally prefer and there is some amazing natural beauty throughout this state.

 

[SW15]

there is some amazing natural beauty throughout this state.

There is some amazing natural beauty. Too much population growth in the state though and that has ruined some of the natural beauty.

What you discussed about employment I feel is very true for the state as a whole, tons of just out of high schoolers from around the country will go to the UofA and ASU but very few of them actually stay after graduation. I feel this is kind of changing with the Phoenix metro area but it does not at all compare to Texas, which has seen some massive influx of companies from CA for instance. Tucson is definitely far worse in regard to this and I don't really see it changing all that much.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2016/03/phoenix-has-worst-brain-drain-of-college-grads.html

The two links discuss Arizona and Arizona State grads leaving the state. Your assessment is correct. Phoenix and Tucson corporate employment isn't good enough to retain college grads in a lot of cases.

The fakeness is for sure a real thing. I also feel that part of this is due to the high level of relative poverty that is in the state. When you are living in an area where everyone is well off no one cares that you are driving a BMW or go on vacations every couple months. However, when you are in an area that consists of a demographic that is heavily impoverished these things become impressive and attract attention. I feel men engage in flashy behavior in order to land women and be competitive in the dating market. I feel women become flashy with their attire, makeup, bodies, etc. in order to land a man that does well for himself, aka being a gold digger. I can personally cite dozens of examples of this.

Getting a BMW, Porsche, or Mercedes-Benz is a big thing in Phoenix. Because the corporate employment in the area isn't that good, the incomes are not that good. A lot of people with those cars in Phoenix are posers heavily in debt doing it to get some vagina or keep their existing woman around.

The women are flashy with their looks as I mentioned in the original post.

No one is going to move to a city primarily to game (unless they are independently wealthy for life and game obsessed, an extremely tiny demographic). You move for a job and/or school and then do your best with the dating environment as it stands.

Every man can boost their SMV SIGNIFICANTLY. It's astonishing how few are willing to do so.

The point is, the "fun factor" is not an objective, fixed reality which is the same for everyone. It varies enormously based upon how attractive you are. Work on this and watch your odds improve, possibly drastically.

Many single, unattached men do consider the mating environment in a city when they are considering relocation. Though some unattached men do get offered a job in X city and then have to deal with the mating environment then..

When relocating, consideration of both mating and employment factors are important.

 

[sangheilios]

There is some amazing natural beauty. Too much population growth in the state though and that has ruined some of the natural beauty.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2016/03/phoenix-has-worst-brain-drain-of-college-grads.html

The two links discuss Arizona and Arizona State grads leaving the state. Your assessment is correct. Phoenix and Tucson corporate employment isn't good enough to retain college grads in a lot of cases.



Getting a BMW, Porsche, or Mercedes-Benz is a big thing in Phoenix. Because the corporate employment in the area isn't that good, the incomes are not that good. A lot of people with those cars in Phoenix are posers heavily in debt doing it to get some vagina or keep their existing woman around.

The women are flashy with their looks as I mentioned in the original post.



Many single, unattached men do consider the mating environment in a city when they are considering relocation. Though some unattached men do get offered a job in X city and then have to deal with the mating environment then..

When relocating, consideration of both mating and employment factors are important.

I personally would not want to live in the Phoenix metro. Aside from Yuma and Lake Havasu area, it's the hottest part in the state and does not cool off at all in the evening time during the summer. This is also partially related to it being in a lower elevation valley, the sheer congestion of the city, with all of the emissions from cars, and the endless tracks of asphalt that retain the heat. Phoenix also has very poor air quality from what I've seen, again related to it being in a valley and the sheer amount of emissions from cars. Traffic is also pretty bad from what I've experienced going through the area. I've heard many people refer to it as a little Los Angeles.

Asides from Phoenix the only other real option to live in a decent sized metro area is Tucson, which in itself has many issues. The air quality is very good and traffic/congestion is limited to more of the interior of the city. There is a lot of natural beauty and plenty for an outdoor enthusiast to enjoy here. The major issue with that metro is the degree of poverty, it is very have or have not, and there is a massive issue with homelessness and drugs, which is not at all unique though and is a very widespread issue throughout the country. Employment opportunities may be limited, a major reason why UofA grads do not stay here. The dating and social scene is basically trash if you are outside of university age range or not Mexican.

You do have places like Flagstaff or Sedona that are very nice but these areas are quite remote and isolated. This would make solid employment possibly difficult and the dating and social scene would be limited for sure. Flagstaff is also even more expensive to live in, again I would assume this is because of how isolated it is. The rest of the state is honestly pretty trash, especially the little towns between Tucson and Phoenix in Pinal county I can't imagine even living there.

 

[Knight of Roses]

Phoenix, Arizona has become one of the biggest metropolitan areas in the United States. It has grown a lot in recent decades. The 2020 Census estimated that Maricopa County (covering most of Metro Phoenix) has a 4.4 million population. In 1990, Maricopa County only had 2.1 million people. Almost all of Metro Phoenix’s growth has occurred since the end of World War II, so the history of the area is rather limited for a lot of population, which does affect the life and the mating environment. Unlike other Sun Belt cities (Miami, Houston, Dallas, New Orleans), Phoenix did not grow until air conditioning became readily available. In 1950, not long after the end of WWII, Maricopa County only had 331,700 residents. When an area goes through explosive growth like Phoenix has, there’s an impact.

Metro Phoenix is one of the few metro areas in the USA where the suburbs are more active than the central city.

In most cities, the hubs of single life are closer to the downtown area of the major city of the metro area. In Metro Phoenix, the suburbs of Scottsdale (the southern part) and Tempe are the hubs of single life. This is due to Old Town Scottsdale and Arizona State University’s main campus being in Tempe. More detail on those soon.

This happened because Downtown Phoenix went through a rough patch in the 1970s and 1980s while Phoenix’s growth was taking off. Before ~1960, Phoenix was considered a smallish town. The metro would have been considered mid-sized in the 1970s and 1980s before only reaching major metro status in the 1990s. In the pre-1970 era, Phoenix had a vibrant downtown area and it felt like a city. However, because the metro area grew as the automobile and suburbanization were big trends, the urban core was a bit neglected for a while. This has gotten better recently and there are some good neighborhoods nearer to the center of Phoenix, the hubs of single life have become Old Town Scottsdale and Tempe in the Metro area.

Since the 1960s, Arizona State in Tempe grew into one of the biggest universities in the nation. It was a smaller, sleepier university until the 1960s when growth took off. There was land to expand it for a while. Now Arizona State has multiple campuses. The Tempe campus has been known as the campus that makes Arizona State’s party and sexy women reputation. The Tempe area is mostly Arizona State women and some recent graduates (first few years after graduation). The best day game option in Tempe is the Arizona State campus. It’s best to do on campus approaching while being an undergraduate or graduate student at Arizona State. Near campus Mill Avenue also provides day game options. Mill Avenue bars are the center of Tempe nightlife.

The Scottsdale scene is best in the southern half of the city, mainly Old Town Scottsdale. Old Town Scottsdale has a more upscale feeling than Tempe. It tends to attract a slightly older crowd and less of a student crowd than Tempe, but most Old Town bars will be the under 30 crowd. Day game can be done in Old Town as well, but typically at a fitness class studio. There’s not a ton of street game in Old Town Scottsdale. Scottsdale Fashion Square is a big mall at the northern end of Old Town and is probably a day game option, but many cities have many malls where day game can be done. North Scottsdale is more of a 33-50 year old female scene.

It would be possible to have a decent dating life focusing efforts around bars and some day game options in Phoenix’s city limits. If you choose to do things this way, you’ll deal with less bad female attitudes. There are a few hiking paths in the central part of the metro area that are unique spots for day game. They are Phoenix’s equivalent of the beach pickup scene in Southern California or beaches in the Miami and Tampa areas.

The Heat is Real and Affects All Aspects of Life, Including Seduction

From roughly April 15 to October 15, the heat in Phoenix is essentially intolerable and will force you to adjust your routines. Most every day during this period will have a high temperature 90 degrees + during this time. 100 degree + high temperatures start consistently around mid-May.

This makes it more difficult to run outdoor game sessions during this part of the year or have outdoor dates. It’s possible to go to a hiking trail at 6 AM in the summer when it is 75 degrees outside and do some approaching but that may not yield a lot of phone numbers and dates.

From October 15 to April 15, the late Fall, Winter, and early Spring are reasonably nice. The Phoenix (and Tucson) winters don’t live up to the hype. If you’re out at night in Phoenix in January, expect temperatures in the mid-30s to low 40s at 1-2 AM. That doesn’t happen in Miami or Tampa in the winter. There are still big variations in day and night temperatures in the desert, even though it’s not as drastic as it was 40 years ago when there was less development.

Hiking is a common early stage date in Metro Phoenix. The hiking paths and urban parks are options for both approaches and for first/second dates in the more comfortable months though I would guess that the hiking trails have more early stage dates than initial pickups happening. The parks are the better option for finding phone numbers and dates that would typically happen at a bar.

Good Looking Women, Bad Attitudes

The title above is the best way to describe the White women in Phoenix, particularly the White women one will most commonly encounter in nightlife venues in Scottsdale and Tempe.

The heat of the area is a motivator for women to look good because not a lot of clothes are worn. This makes appearance all the more important. It’s fair to say that Metro Phoenix is an environment characterized by superficiality and pretentiousness.

In conjunction with the heat, Phoenix is very transplant heavy. Few Phoenix area residents have long time roots in the area. You don’t see a lot of strong social circles of natives who grew up in the area. While there are some and having a circle would help, it’s just not common. This is also a contributing factor to the superficiality and pretentiousness in the area. When there are no social circle consequences for behavior, overall behavior tends to be worse.

You’re less likely to encounter these bad attitudes with Hispanic women in the area than White women.

If you want to limit the effects of these attitudes, meeting women through non-bar approaching or social circle will help as compared to the bar scene or the use of swipe apps.

Because superficiality matters a lot in Phoenix, having the right image helps a lot. Guys go to great lengths in the area to get material possessions to impress women. A fair number of women also get breast implants to compete with other women for the top guys in the area.

Is This a Good Place to Live?

For most people, the answer to this will be “No”.

Not only there is a mediocre mating environment due to the male surplus and subpar female attitudes, there is not a good base of corporate employment in Metro Phoenix. Few top companies have their headquarters in Metro Phoenix, so a lot of the general business jobs are lackluster. If your job is in the medical industry, Phoenix has a decent employment base. The medical industry has always done quite well in Phoenix due to the fact that the area is a hub for retirees needing medical services.

One of the primary reasons of recent decades to move to Phoenix no longer applies. From the mid-1990s to mid to late 2010s, the area was flooded by West Coasters (primarily Californians) and Chicagoans looking to escape higher cost areas. Rents and home prices in Metro Phoenix were affordable. Phoenix is no longer as affordable on housing costs and overall costs of living as it was 15-20 years ago.

The area is also in a fragile natural ecosystem. The area has been overdeveloped since at least 1990. There are significant water issues surrounding the Colorado River. This is a concern for nearby Tucson and Las Vegas as well.

While the areas offers the advantage of physically attractive women and mild winters, the disadvantages of the area (attitudes, employment, water/overall climate) outweigh the advantages in most cases.

Good.

stay the hell out of my city. Lol.

I’ve grown significantly tired of all the transplants into Phoenix. Especially the ones coming from California who bring their democratic politics and turn my once great red state blue.

So when you said is it a good place to live? “No”.
I love Phoenix but I hope everyone else doesn’t like it so that we can stop this mass influx. Traffic has soured and house prices have soared since the COVID era largely due to masses of Californians moving here.

Sorry if my post is jumbled. I’m trying to type on mobile.

 

[SW15]

I personally would not want to live in the Phoenix metro. Aside from Yuma and Lake Havasu area, it's the hottest part in the state and does not cool off at all in the evening time during the summer. This is also partially related to it being in a lower elevation valley, the sheer congestion of the city, with all of the emissions from cars, and the endless tracks of asphalt that retain the heat. Phoenix also has very poor air quality from what I've seen, again related to it being in a valley and the sheer amount of emissions from cars. Traffic is also pretty bad from what I've experienced going through the area.

It does not make a lot of sense that a gigantic, sprawling metropolitan area is in one of the hottest parts of the state. The state itself is the one of the hottest areas in the USA. Yes, I did mention in my initial post that there's been less night time cooling in more recent times.

I’ve grown significantly tired of all the transplants into Phoenix. Especially the ones coming from California who bring their democratic politics and turn my once great red state blue.

I love Phoenix but I hope everyone else doesn’t like it so that we can stop this mass influx. Traffic has soured and house prices have soared since the COVID era largely due to masses of Californians moving here.

The last time I was in Phoenix (late 2010s), it felt quite crowded. Too many people live there at this point.

It's not surprising that there's growing backlash against more people moving to Phoenix. It is better if there is more backlash. Growth has not provided benefits.

 

[Jesse Pinkman]

Man I do not get the hype about the state of Arizona in general tbh. Like everyone wants to shove it down our throats and claim that ASU is somehow the bastion of hot girls but no no no no no, I strongly disagree. @Jake_Gyllenhaal69 said it best, its California with an inferiority complex. From my experience, Arizona girls are amongst the biggest clout chasers in the entire country. I mean West Coast girls in general suck but Arizona girls seem to be stuck in high school popularity contest mode yet lack the status and prestige that a California girl would have. I've been unfortunate to run into way too many UofA and ASU girls in NYC and it is very telling, that place attracts the sketchiest and seediest of guys and the biggest c-nts in regards to women.

I think a common underlying theme about cities and places that suck for meeting women, and this may warrant its own thread, is that they all collectively have this inferiority complex towards other places. Even in NYC you see this with the boroughs. The women in Queens and Brooklyn are trash, embodying the worst traits of western women, because deep down inside they are jealous of the women in Manhattan who are actually successful and desirable.

I have not met any decent women from Arizona. They all seem to be clout chasers that play high school popularity contests because people from normal and decent states never acknowledged them. Florida is far better with prettier women who are more fun and chill. Seriously, f-ck the entire state of Arizona and its dry overrated trash bag women.

 

[SW15]

ASU is somehow the bastion of hot girls but no no no no no, I strongly disagree.

If you solely judge on physical appearance, Arizona State women are attractive.

I've been unfortunate to run into way too many UofA and ASU girls in NYC and it is very telling, that place attracts the sketchiest and seediest of guys and the biggest c-nts in regards to women.

University of Arizona and Arizona State alumni are commonly found throughout Phoenix. If you're out at the Old Town Scottsdale bars trying to get your penis wet, you're interacting with a lot of recent alumni from both schools. Imagine that!

I do not get the hype about the state of Arizona in general tbh. Like everyone wants to shove it down our throats and claim that ASU is somehow the bastion of hot girls but no no no no no, I strongly disagree. @Jake_Gyllenhaal69 said it best, its California with an inferiority complex. From my experience, Arizona girls are amongst the biggest clout chasers in the entire country. I mean West Coast girls in general suck but Arizona girls seem to be stuck in high school popularity contest mode yet lack the status and prestige that a California girl would have.

I have not met any decent women from Arizona. They all seem to be clout chasers that play high school popularity contests because people from normal and decent states never acknowledged them. Seriously, f-ck the entire state of Arizona and its dry overrated trash bag women.

This is mostly accurate. Meeting women in non-bar settings will help improve interactions. However, a clout chaser is still a clout chaser whether you meet her in Papago Park, an Old Town Scottsdale bar, a Tempe bar, or a grocery store in Tempe/Southern Scottsdale/Central Phoenix.

 

[MatureDJ]

Phoenix, Arizona has become one of the biggest metropolitan areas in the United States. It has grown a lot in recent decades. The 2020 Census estimated that Maricopa County (covering most of Metro Phoenix) has a 4.4 million population. In 1990, Maricopa County only had 2.1 million people. Almost all of Metro Phoenix’s growth has occurred since the end of World War II, so the history of the area is rather limited for a lot of population, which does affect the life and the mating environment. Unlike other Sun Belt cities (Miami, Houston, Dallas, New Orleans), Phoenix did not grow until air conditioning became readily available. In 1950, not long after the end of WWII, Maricopa County only had 331,700 residents. When an area goes through explosive growth like Phoenix has, there’s an impact.

Metro Phoenix is one of the few metro areas in the USA where the suburbs are more active than the central city.

In most cities, the hubs of single life are closer to the downtown area of the major city of the metro area. In Metro Phoenix, the suburbs of Scottsdale (the southern part) and Tempe are the hubs of single life. This is due to Old Town Scottsdale and Arizona State University’s main campus being in Tempe. More detail on those soon.

This happened because Downtown Phoenix went through a rough patch in the 1970s and 1980s while Phoenix’s growth was taking off. Before ~1960, Phoenix was considered a smallish town. The metro would have been considered mid-sized in the 1970s and 1980s before only reaching major metro status in the 1990s. In the pre-1970 era, Phoenix had a vibrant downtown area and it felt like a city. However, because the metro area grew as the automobile and suburbanization were big trends, the urban core was a bit neglected for a while. This has gotten better recently and there are some good neighborhoods nearer to the center of Phoenix, the hubs of single life have become Old Town Scottsdale and Tempe in the Metro area.

Since the 1960s, Arizona State in Tempe grew into one of the biggest universities in the nation. It was a smaller, sleepier university until the 1960s when growth took off. There was land to expand it for a while. Now Arizona State has multiple campuses. The Tempe campus has been known as the campus that makes Arizona State’s party and sexy women reputation. The Tempe area is mostly Arizona State women and some recent graduates (first few years after graduation). The best day game option in Tempe is the Arizona State campus. It’s best to do on campus approaching while being an undergraduate or graduate student at Arizona State. Near campus Mill Avenue also provides day game options. Mill Avenue bars are the center of Tempe nightlife.

The Scottsdale scene is best in the southern half of the city, mainly Old Town Scottsdale. Old Town Scottsdale has a more upscale feeling than Tempe. It tends to attract a slightly older crowd and less of a student crowd than Tempe, but most Old Town bars will be the under 30 crowd. Day game can be done in Old Town as well, but typically at a fitness class studio. There’s not a ton of street game in Old Town Scottsdale. Scottsdale Fashion Square is a big mall at the northern end of Old Town and is probably a day game option, but many cities have many malls where day game can be done. North Scottsdale is more of a 33-50 year old female scene.

It would be possible to have a decent dating life focusing efforts around bars and some day game options in Phoenix’s city limits. If you choose to do things this way, you’ll deal with less bad female attitudes. There are a few hiking paths in the central part of the metro area that are unique spots for day game. They are Phoenix’s equivalent of the beach pickup scene in Southern California or beaches in the Miami and Tampa areas.

The Heat is Real and Affects All Aspects of Life, Including Seduction

From roughly April 15 to October 15, the heat in Phoenix is essentially intolerable and will force you to adjust your routines. Most every day during this period will have a high temperature 90 degrees + during this time. 100 degree + high temperatures start consistently around mid-May.

This makes it more difficult to run outdoor game sessions during this part of the year or have outdoor dates. It’s possible to go to a hiking trail at 6 AM in the summer when it is 75 degrees outside and do some approaching but that may not yield a lot of phone numbers and dates.

From October 15 to April 15, the late Fall, Winter, and early Spring are reasonably nice. The Phoenix (and Tucson) winters don’t live up to the hype. If you’re out at night in Phoenix in January, expect temperatures in the mid-30s to low 40s at 1-2 AM. That doesn’t happen in Miami or Tampa in the winter. There are still big variations in day and night temperatures in the desert, even though it’s not as drastic as it was 40 years ago when there was less development.

Hiking is a common early stage date in Metro Phoenix. The hiking paths and urban parks are options for both approaches and for first/second dates in the more comfortable months though I would guess that the hiking trails have more early stage dates than initial pickups happening. The parks are the better option for finding phone numbers and dates that would typically happen at a bar.

Good Looking Women, Bad Attitudes

The title above is the best way to describe the White women in Phoenix, particularly the White women one will most commonly encounter in nightlife venues in Scottsdale and Tempe.

The heat of the area is a motivator for women to look good because not a lot of clothes are worn. This makes appearance all the more important. It’s fair to say that Metro Phoenix is an environment characterized by superficiality and pretentiousness.

In conjunction with the heat, Phoenix is very transplant heavy. Few Phoenix area residents have long time roots in the area. You don’t see a lot of strong social circles of natives who grew up in the area. While there are some and having a circle would help, it’s just not common. This is also a contributing factor to the superficiality and pretentiousness in the area. When there are no social circle consequences for behavior, overall behavior tends to be worse.

You’re less likely to encounter these bad attitudes with Hispanic women in the area than White women.

If you want to limit the effects of these attitudes, meeting women through non-bar approaching or social circle will help as compared to the bar scene or the use of swipe apps.

Because superficiality matters a lot in Phoenix, having the right image helps a lot. Guys go to great lengths in the area to get material possessions to impress women. A fair number of women also get breast implants to compete with other women for the top guys in the area.

Is This a Good Place to Live?

For most people, the answer to this will be “No”.

Not only there is a mediocre mating environment due to the male surplus and subpar female attitudes, there is not a good base of corporate employment in Metro Phoenix. Few top companies have their headquarters in Metro Phoenix, so a lot of the general business jobs are lackluster. If your job is in the medical industry, Phoenix has a decent employment base. The medical industry has always done quite well in Phoenix due to the fact that the area is a hub for retirees needing medical services.

One of the primary reasons of recent decades to move to Phoenix no longer applies. From the mid-1990s to mid to late 2010s, the area was flooded by West Coasters (primarily Californians) and Chicagoans looking to escape higher cost areas. Rents and home prices in Metro Phoenix were affordable. Phoenix is no longer as affordable on housing costs and overall costs of living as it was 15-20 years ago.

The area is also in a fragile natural ecosystem. The area has been overdeveloped since at least 1990. There are significant water issues surrounding the Colorado River. This is a concern for nearby Tucson and Las Vegas as well.

While the areas offers the advantage of physically attractive women and mild winters, the disadvantages of the area (attitudes, employment, water/overall climate) outweigh the advantages in most cases.

I had spent about a half a year (late summer into early winter, so I know full well the climate situation) there in the early 00s, getting a 1-BR, furnished apartment for about $500/mo. My assessment is that there are so many hot coeds from ASU that the sexual market adjusts around that; unfortunately, it's a typical American tall city for white folks, so of course I couldn't do anything without going for the chunky mamacitas. In any case, I JobMaxxed there working about 60 hours a week for about $12K per month, so even if I could have dipped into the sexual market scene, I didn't have the time, other than my Sunday respite going to this tremendous sports bar near the campus (I was in my mid 30s, and lots of 40 or 50-somethings seemed to be very easy to talk to, but I was not interested; there isn't anything slender that is more disgusting than an overtanned cougar).

 

[MatureDJ]

It does not make a lot of sense that a gigantic, sprawling metropolitan area is in one of the hottest parts of the state. The state itself is the one of the hottest areas in the USA. Yes, I did mention in my initial post that there's been less night time cooling in more recent times.

The last time I was in Phoenix (late 2010s), it felt quite crowded. Too many people live there at this point.

It's not surprising that there's growing backlash against more people moving to Phoenix. It is better if there is more backlash. Growth has not provided benefits.

I got the feeling that there were a lot of transplants from the Snow Belt that moved there, and they figured that the dry heat of Arizona was preferable to the humid heat of Florida (California was obviously too expensive for them). There are a lot of defense plants around (which is why I was there for a contract 2 decades ago), and before the housing market started to go haywire in the mid 00s (then going down the tubes in the Great Recession, and back up again), I could see the value proposition for someone that hated snow; nowadays, I don't see the value proposition as much, but really, where it is cheap and close to any major city?

 

[MatureDJ]

Many single, unattached men do consider the mating environment in a city when they are considering relocation. Though some unattached men do get offered a job in X city and then have to deal with the mating environment then..

When relocating, consideration of both mating and employment factors are important.

I don't think many men consider this, although for myself, seeing so many tall Chads in SoCal made me realize even more so that I needed to be around the short folks in my home region. If men ever take consideration of mating into account for the city of relocation, they invariably come to the same conclusion I had - that GeoMaxxing to Eastern Europe or Argentina (or other places if white women aren't the target), and to adjust their career path accordingly.

If staying in the USA, the best locale is always a small college city - where there is enough of a city by itself - so that the coed effect helps to adjust the sexual market.

 

[DonJuanjr]

so that the coed effect helps to adjust the sexual market.

What does this mean?

 

[SW15]

I had spent about a half a year (late summer into early winter, so I know full well the climate situation) there in the early 00s, getting a 1-BR, furnished apartment for about $500/mo. My assessment is that there are so many hot coeds from ASU that the sexual market adjusts around that; unfortunately, it's a typical American tall city for white folks, so of course I couldn't do anything without going for the chunky mamacitas. In any case, I JobMaxxed there working about 60 hours a week for about $12K per month, so even if I could have dipped into the sexual market scene, I didn't have the time, other than my Sunday respite going to this tremendous sports bar near the campus (I was in my mid 30s, and lots of 40 or 50-somethings seemed to be very easy to talk to, but I was not interested; there isn't anything slender that is more disgusting than an overtanned cougar).

The sexual marketplace does not adjust around co-eds in a university once you get far enough away from the university. The North Scottsdale scene of mainly 35-55 year olds is only marginally affected by the presence of Arizona State 15-20 miles away. Some older North Scottsdale and Paradise Valley men who are rich or appear rich but have tons of debt might chase younger women conventionally or through sugar daddy websites. Most men won't fit that.

Going to a bar near ASU as a 35 year old man sounds like a bad idea. While your earnings were good then, it didn't seem like it was enough to attract co-ed based on money alone. $12,000 per month or $144,000 a year in 2002 was solid and probably closer to a $175,000-$185,000 salary today. That's getting close to where money could make an advantage. A mid-30s guy with those earnings could have done better in Scottsdale at that time if there was more free time and he had at least average height.

Any guy with a temporary work assignment for 6 months isn't going to make much happen in a city unless it's just one night stands and casual sex he's after. There's no extended relationship potential.

Tan middle aged women is a thing in Arizona, though more of a thing in Scottsdale than near Arizona State. Maybe even Paradise Valley too.

I could see the value proposition for someone that hated snow; nowadays, I don't see the value proposition as much, but really, where it is cheap and close to any major city?

The Phoenix value proposition of the past has dissipated during the last ~5 years or so. Phoenix was a good option because it was inexpensive. It was also inexpensive because of lower quality of jobs there. In the 1990s-early 2010s, if you looked at the rich people in Metro Phoenix, it was mainly older people who made their money in the Northeast, Chicago, or California and then migrated to Phoenix at age 50+ as near retirees or retirees.

Now, Phoenix has gotten expensive and the local quality of jobs still isn't all that spectacular.

 

[MatureDJ]

What does this mean?

Coeds - i.e., female college students - represent that top tier of chicks, so lesser chicks have to compete against them; they don't have this competition in non-college towns.

 

[SW15]

Coeds - i.e., female college students - represent that top tier of chicks, so lesser chicks have to compete against them; they don't have this competition in non-college towns.

This isn't applicable in Phoenix, a metro area of 4.4 million people. While Arizona State is a large university, the presence isn't overwhelming. Even Tempe (the suburb where Arizona State's main campus is located) is a suburb of 180,000 residents and has had a population over 100,000 since 1980. You could make the case that Arizona State co-eds affect Tempe but not the whole metro area. Tempe itself is larger than smaller towns that surround a university, like Oxford, Mississippi.

 

[SW15]

the guido trash of the east coast do resemble the trash in Arizona.

Arizona women have bad attitudes, and that would be similar to the NJ/Long Island Italian-American women. The difference is that the White women in Phoenix and Tucson aren't often Italian-American.

You can find good looks in Metro Phoenix, but you'll be challenged to find good attitudes.