Best indicator of interest level: Compliance or Initiation?

[BeExcellent]

It’s not black and white when it comes to showing interest. In a social circle environment (or any environment without loud distractions) there will be obvious underlying sexual tension. Even a normal conversation that looks harmless to others can be full of romantic tension. Even a little stare can go a long way. Such nuances of romance is hard to explain to these newbies online. They think the guy has to do all the work and the woman is a lifeless mannequin.

If there is chemistry, even a “Hi”can send shivers down her spine.

When two people look at each other like they KNOW the other person is valuable and serendipity found the two of them together, that’s the key right there.

From this place, it’s just a matter of being alone.

I think guys on this forum are too fixated on formulas of seduction. There is no formula. There is only natural chemistry.

And when there is natural chemistry between two people, they BOTH know it without the other having an utter a single word.

Language came into existence 50,000 years ago but humans have been mating long before that.

Anything that has to do with game or contrived seduction is waste of time.

When romance is present, words are unnecessary. And when words are necessary, then romance is not present.

See @BeExcellent, you would love it if guys on your wavelength were bold towards you. That would make your life so much easier, lol, and probably a lot more fun too. But for guys that aren’t on your wavelength, nothing they do matter.

And that’s really my point. When two people are on the same wavelength, the connection is seamless. And sure, some women wish the guy would just make a move. She might even stare a hole into his head until he gets a hint.

The secret is wavelength, not in being a bold and contrived seducer. That’s just asking for 1000 rejections and becoming disillusioned when the guy discovers no amount of manipulation can create natural chemistry.

And of course, in order for a guy to elevate his vibration and operate on a high wavelength, he needs to use his masculine energy to conquer life, not chase women. That would be a waste of his masculine gifts.

Agreed. For me from where I sit it’s a matter of being patient & waiting on that natural chemistry/connection.

At times you can get the chemistry but then the connection may not develop or exist. So they aren’t the same thing.

So I still hold the view that compliance is a better measure than initiation when it comes to interest.

 

[17 shots]

Even a little stare can go a long way. Such nuances of romance are hard to explain to these newbies online. .

This is true af. My eyes have gotten me so many lay ups, most guys just don't know how to use them, or they are not perceptive enough, idk. When I was in high school I would tell my friends whenever I saw a woman staring at them, then they would go over and get her. That's the best wingman to me, a guy that will point out the obvious targets for you. Thats real team work lol. I've even had a time when my cousin told me I walked past a woman who was staring at me in the club. I went back over there and got her number. 98% of the time tho, I don't miss ANYTHING. I'll even notice if a woman is checking me out from my perifrial

Obviously the better looking you are the more eye contact you'll get, but everyone will have these moments at some point in their lives, but if you're not paying attention you'll miss out

 

[fastlife]

So you are saying every woman that initiates on me is desperate and easy? Lol. That sounds like a cope for someone who doesn't have women seducing him and someone who doesn't have access to social networks with women (like 99% of all puas).

Nope. I'm saying that by limiting yourself to girls who chase your validation in your immediate vicinity, you'll be filtering in more of these girls than you would if you expand your reach. I'm also saying there are plenty of girls who would be receptive but who exist outside your social circle, aren't going to make the first move, and who you are automatically filtering out for no real reason.

Who is more dominant...the chaser or the chasee?? And is being dominant masculine or feminine? This is a simple question.

Whoever controls the frame. You can go into a job interview and qualify the fvck out of the company and the interviewer and flip the script to have them chasing you. It's just a matter of having value and effectively conveying it. You might even really want that job, but it doesn't make you submissive just because you apply or follow-up.

Sure, you could wait til you have a friend who has an in at another company or some recruiter contacts you, and that might make the process smoother and you might have to convey less value since you already have some going into the conversation. But that will also limit your options and lengthen the time you need to move vertically or horizontally.

Look @stormrider, we've been having this convo for years. I'm not discounting the fact that social circle is often easier. I'm not advising anyone NOT to have social circles that bring them fulfillment. I'm just saying it's unnecessarily limiting your options for NO REAL BENEFIT besides mitigating PERCEIVED downsides.

Since you brought up sales and marketing, let me put it to you this way. Pretend you're a consultant. If you're advising a start-up or an underperforming company (most guys at SS), then you would tell them to focus their efforts on outbound sales and marketing and to invest in product development (themselves). They have to generate demand--and chances are they'll have to 'chase' clients. A more established company can turn more of their attention to inbound calls. BUT even multi-billion dollar companies STILL have to be able to execute effective outbound sales and marketing to keep demand high and expand their market penetration. Advising ANYONE to eliminate any outbound marketing from their strategy limits scalability, geographic reach, and probably their duration.

If a guy hasn't been able to capitalize on the social circles they have handed to them in middle, high school, and college--which is the easiest it'll ever get social-circle wise--then just telling them to join a yoga class or a theater group and wait for girls to show interest is sh1tty advice. You can do it and I can do it, because we have our subcomms down (which is the source of the mythical 'chemistry' you like to talk about). But most guys WILL have to go out and consciously practice those and put themselves through enough situations to internalize their value and learn how to give value to the people around them, BEFORE that's practical advice.

 

[nicksaiz65]

Nope. I'm saying that by limiting yourself to girls who chase your validation in your immediate vicinity, you'll be filtering in more of these girls than you would if you expand your reach. I'm also saying there are plenty of girls who would be receptive but who exist outside your social circle, aren't going to make the first move, and who you are automatically filtering out for no real reason.



Whoever controls the frame. You can go into a job interview and qualify the fvck out of the company and the interviewer and flip the script to have them chasing you. It's just a matter of having value and effectively conveying it. You might even really want that job, but it doesn't make you submissive just because you apply or follow-up.

Sure, you could wait til you have a friend who has an in at another company or some recruiter contacts you, and that might make the process smoother and you might have to convey less value since you already have some going into the conversation. But that will also limit your options and lengthen the time you need to move vertically or horizontally.

Look @stormrider, we've been having this convo for years. I'm not discounting the fact that social circle is often easier. I'm not advising anyone NOT to have social circles that bring them fulfillment. I'm just saying it's unnecessarily limiting your options for NO REAL BENEFIT besides mitigating PERCEIVED downsides.

Since you brought up sales and marketing, let me put it to you this way. Pretend you're a consultant. If you're advising a start-up or an underperforming company (most guys at SS), then you would tell them to focus their efforts on outbound sales and marketing and to invest in product development (themselves). They have to generate demand--and chances are they'll have to 'chase' clients. A more established company can turn more of their attention to inbound calls. BUT even multi-billion dollar companies STILL have to be able to execute effective outbound sales and marketing to keep demand high and expand their market penetration. Advising ANYONE to eliminate any outbound marketing from their strategy limits scalability, geographic reach, and probably their duration.

If a guy hasn't been able to capitalize on the social circles they have handed to them in middle, high school, and college--which is the easiest it'll ever get social-circle wise--then just telling them to join a yoga class or a theater group and wait for girls to show interest is sh1tty advice. You can do it and I can do it, because we have our subcomms down (which is the source of the mythical 'chemistry' you like to talk about). But most guys WILL have to go out and consciously practice those and put themselves through enough situations to internalize their value and learn how to give value to the people around them, BEFORE that's practical advice.

I enjoy posts from both of you, but damn. You hit the nail on the head. That makes absolutely perfect sense.

 

[Trump]

So I still hold the view that compliance is a better measure than initiation when it comes to interest.

Sorry dear, but I really don’t know how you and the top players say compliance is a better measure of interest than initiation.

How easy is it for a guy to get a girl to go out with him? Very very simple.

How easy is it for a guy to get a girl to call or text you first? Very very hard. Initiating means she has to care. That is very very dangerous for her ego and social status in 2020.

I would comply with any girl right now if they initiated and wanted to do something, ANY girl.

I would never initiate with any girl. I would only initiate with a girl I wanted to sleep with.

 

[BeExcellent]

Guys who think compliance is better than women initiating are lying to themselves. That’s like saying you’d rather be a hard worker than just rich. If you had a choice, any sane person would choose abundance with least effort.

The guys who are on the compliance train do not have women initiating on them so they just cancel out that variable altogether. Worse, some guys even rationalize that women initiating is masculine and desperate in order to cope.

One can simply walk into a night club and see countless women throwing themselves at guys they are attracted to you. Go ahead and tell those guys “Hey man your women are masculine and desperate. They don’t really like you. Compliance is better” and they will straight up laugh at you as if you were a weirdo.

Normal guys who get laid in real life don’t have these weird beliefs. No sane guy is going to reject attractive women throwing themselves at him.

There’s sosuave logic. And then there is real life, lol.

But many of the women who initiate are trash. My own guy (who women throw themselves at on the regular) finds this boring. Sure he can get laid in spades if that’s what he wants. Then they cling, blow up his phone like stalkers and pester him incessantly. He can’t run away fast enough, even if they are a hot piece of ass. It’s too easy and the women are too desperate. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel. It’s meaningless after a while. And suddenly a woman who has standards and requires actual effort (but will encourage & comply) becomes far more interesting & intriguing.

I know men with ridiculous abundance. They arrive at this stance 85-90% of the time after years on the screw whoever you choose train. It gets utterly boring & meaningless after a while. But to have that viewpoint a man has to run through a ton of easy kitty.

Men who’ve never had that sort of abundance never come to really appreciate a great woman unless they are fortunate enough to find one and commit in their youth.

 

[BeExcellent]

Men who initiate are the biggest players. They figure out your imprint and say all the right words and make all the right moves. Eventually they break frame and become completely needy and text you 24/7.

You will never have to worry about that with guys who don’t chase.

You see how that works? Lol.

Trust me on this. I could give a master class on game. I’ve joked with my guy that we should teach game together. We’d make a mint.

I’m a business woman and perfectly fine to be assertive in business & professional endeavors. It doesn’t translate to dating interactions. If it worked I’d do it.

If all I wanted was to get laid...I’d do it. It’s be so very easy.

But it is unnatural and doesn’t work. Experience talking here. I’ve initiated in times past and against my better judgement. I’ve NEVER had a great relationship unless the man approached me. Sure. Guys will try and take advantage & get laid (and then get annoyed when I won’t sex them up right away)...they figure sure, if she hits me up I can get laid...but I’m not that sort of gal.

So I (and other quality women like me) will wait and see who approaches and shows masculinity and initiative and choose from those men...who make the best partners.

If you prefer women who pursue a man? You are less secure in yourself and more interested in short term & getting laid.

If you prefer compliance you are more secure, willing to lead & more interested in long term.

I have seen no exceptions to this in my experience. But strategy will vary depending on what your sexual strategy is and on your relationship goals (or non-goals), lol.

 

[BeExcellent]

Women represent 50% of any male/female interaction. So it matters what the woman thinks because she remains a human being with the ability to make choices and decisions. She has free will.

You don’t have to consider her perspective nor care of course. And that lack of caring or arrogance will reflect in your vibe.

You of all people here should know this.

You can attempt to invalidate me as in your post above. My perspective is useful to some here. Perhaps not to you and that’s fine. But your opinion isn’t the ONE opinion any more than mine is.

 

[BeExcellent]

I’m curious to know too.

My son, who enters university next year is already a sharp dressed, very handsome, fit, socially adroit young man who is the recipient of tons of female attention. I’m sure I had nothing to do with that, lol. He also leads and is ambitious and takes my counsel but makes his own decisions. He does not cow tow to me and has no qualms doing what he thinks best...he is a natural leader, well liked and well calibrated. He plans to become a military officer & pilot like his grandfather on his father’s side (who was an elite fighter pilot, AF test pilot and the kind of man men here aspire to.). He is confident, not arrogant and he listens to people with experience and weighs what is best from his perspective. He’s taken the steps and the discipline to set himself up to accomplish his aims and his purpose.

I know it’s a men’s space here. I’ve been here awhile. At times I’ve advised young men here to find a male mentor to emulate or take advice from if I don’t think I’m equipped to guide on a specific issue or at a certain growth point.

The poster who first was a catalyst for me joining the site years ago was far more arrogant than and younger than Storm. He thought a woman’s view was moot too...until he realized it wasn’t. He is becoming a great man among men. He credited his mother with nurturing him and also requiring excellence from him...she pushed him and told him the truth about the world.

I do this with my son too.

The world doesn’t care about you. It doesn’t care about me either. This is a space and place where men come to learn from one another and inspire one another based in experience.

Celebrity good looks, great wealth, status, and all that stuff confers great advantage. It is a wonderful blessing but also a double edged sword. Scores of others will seek to use people to obtain the trophy of the wealth, the status...the good looks for their own means. There are lots of users out there.

I’ve told the story of the professional male model I dated prior to marrying the nightclub owner...he was wealthy, had status, and was a gorgeous specimen of a man. Women threw themselves at him everywhere he went. He despised that. He approached me and pursued me. I liked him a great deal because he was a really good person inside the beautiful package...but he was struggling with financial matters he was too embarrassed to disclose to me, and worked extreme hours to overcome the situation. I thought he was simply a workaholic who didn’t have bandwidth for a relationship. I was wrong, but I didn’t know. At any rate I broke it off. The next man I dated was the nightclub owner who I married.

Sadly the model never felt like he found anyone after me who really liked him for HIM. All the women wanted the trophy of the money & handsome face. He was lonely inside his beautiful package and successful looking life. Despite being chased constantly by beautiful women.

He withdrew into drug culture to cope with the disconnect & eventually died of an overdose.

My point? Every blessing has a dark side lurking somewhere. Sometimes those who seem to have it easy or have it all actually do not.

Ignore me if what I have to say bothers you. I’m just a voice and a perspective. Pay no attention if it doesn’t resonate with you.

Simple.

 

[BeExcellent]

I'm not saying all women who initiate (as in approach) are trash, but many are.

We can disagree about "initiating" as a definition, sure. IOIs are not the action of initiating. Approaching is. Much of what you note in your post above I agree with, but the approach is still the masculine role that demonstrates interest and initiative.

You don't approach all women who show you IOIs, only those who appeal to you, and that is my point, no matter how dolled up and touchy as they walk by the girls get.

Once the dance formally begins, the man is the one who starts the cadence. Often the woman has indicated openness to an approach (not always) but the initial approach is still the role of the man.

 

[Spaz]

We're still at this it seems.

Guys there's no game. Truly there's none at all to be played.

If there's a game then it's just actually ur frame at play. The sum total of you.

If you pick up some strange "game" that's not part of ur frame then you will not be able to sustainably attract women.

That's why many men, even whilst attracting women at the initial stage (either by looks or through manipulation/game) can't sustain it because it was fake to begin with.

I've always consistently said many times over, to build up ur foundations as a man, from there slowly level up, ur attractiveness will rise in tandem with that growth.

Now as for women, by now, you all should get it into ur thick skulls, that's IT'S ALWAYS THE WOMEN WHO INITIATES, she will do so many things just to be noticed, why do you think a woman takes her time to doll up huh?

It's her job to manipulate a man into manning up.

It's thrilling for her.

So please don't do her job for her, let her have her feminine fun.

How is it that I need to keep on teaching this simple stuff even to some of the Masters here.

 

[BeExcellent]

Good deal. Indicators of interest are not initiation. Of course women make an effort to look appealing. That’s not approaching or initiating.

Storm has simply moved the goalposts rather than debate on the merits.

I hold that compliance is the better indicator of a woman’s interest. Both initially and over time.

And I’m utterly consistent in that view here and elsewhere.

I don’t think confusing the less nuanced guys with what constitutes “initiation” helps anybody. Those of us with enough experience already know how to interact...so it’s academic for us. I agree with @fastlife & @samspade on this.

If you prefer a deferring woman who looks to her man for leadership that is.

Much of the rest is ego and posturing in this thread in my view.

So I’m pleased to be on Ignore. Thank you.

 

[Spaz]

Good deal. Indicators of interest are not initiation. Of course women make an effort to look appealing. That’s not approaching or initiating.

Storm has simply moved the goalposts rather than debate on the merits.

I hold that compliance is the better indicator of a woman’s interest. Both initially and over time.

And I’m utterly consistent in that view here and elsewhere.

I don’t think confusing the less nuanced guys with what constitutes “initiation” helps anybody. Those of us with enough experience already know how to interact...so it’s academic for us. I agree with @fastlife & @samspade on this.

If you prefer a deferring woman who looks to her man for leadership that is.

Much of the rest is ego and posturing in this thread in my view.

So I’m pleased to be on Ignore. Thank you.

What r u talking abt BE?

Anyhow both fastlife and samspade are intellectuals, both needs data and operates from there since they lack what others take for granted.

I'll gladly debate with you the finer points on how to be an attractive male.

Seems like I need to step into this thread rather then seeing some of the noobs (phulease don't even bother lying that ur approach game yields consistent results) here dictating what's norm for rest.

 

[synecdoche]

What r u talking abt BE?

Anyhow both fastlife and samspade are intellectuals, both needs data and operates from there since they lack what others take for granted.

I'll gladly debate with you the finer points on how to be an attractive male.

Seems like I need to step into this thread rather then seeing some of the noobs (phulease don't even bother lying that ur approach game yields consistent results) here dictating what's norm for rest.

Please do, I would be happy to read your opinion on these matters.

 

[Spaz]

Please do, I would be happy to read your opinion on these matters.

I'm waiting for the lady bird to make a move 1st, or one of her 2 intellectuals to make some ballsy move on how their techniques yield excellent results.

Then I'll be the one teaching them the errors of their ways.

I wonder which one would be daring...

 

[Trump]

Guys there's no game. Truly there's none at all to be played.

If there's a game then it's just actually ur frame at play. The sum total of you.

If you pick up some strange "game" that's not part of ur frame then you will not be able to sustainably attract women.

That's why many men, even whilst attracting women at the initial stage (either by looks or through manipulation/game) can't sustain it because it was fake to begin with.

I've always consistently said many times over, to build up ur foundations as a man, from there slowly level up, ur attractiveness will rise in tandem with that growth.

It makes good sense what you are saying.

But one thing I think you Stormrider are forgetting is the man should focus on his goal with the woman first, and work from there. Now obviously it’s better to be 150% authentic 100% of the time, but she may not buy even if the man is authentic.

In a way it’s like lying on your resume to get hired. Once they hire you and get used to you, it’s much harder for them to fire you. Same thing with women, tell her what she wants to hear until you what you want from her (marriage, child), then you can be 150% authentic.

I got quite a friends who have lied to get married and have a daughter. They are decent guys who work hard, but didn’t have that Prince Harry James Dean type of feel, so they lied to her, ran game. Girl fell for it, got married, now they have a family.

Contrast that with the guy is working on himself, 150% straight with the girl, and authentic, runs no game, yet still single.

Now the question is: can a man live with himself without being 100% authentic to the girl and having to run game? I think so. When Donald Trump, Putin, Hitler, Chamberlain, Xi, Mao, Trudeau, Khomeini, Mandela, Kennedy, Bush, Obama, tells LIES to the people because they want to achieve their goal, layman like us on sosuave can run game on a girl to get what we want.

 

[Spaz]

It makes good sense what you are saying.

But one thing I think you Stormrider are forgetting is the man should focus on his goal with the woman first, and work from there. Now obviously it’s better to be 150% authentic 100% of the time, but she may not buy even if the man is authentic.

In a way it’s like lying on your resume to get hired. Once they hire you and get used to you, it’s much harder for them to fire you. Same thing with women, tell her what she wants to hear until you what you want from her (marriage, child), then you can be 150% authentic.

I got quite a friends who have lied to get married and have a daughter. They are decent guys who work hard, but didn’t have that Prince Harry James Dean type of feel, so they lied to her, ran game. Girl fell for it, got married, now they have a family.

Contrast that with the guy is working on himself, 150% straight with the girl, and authentic, runs no game, yet still single.

Now the question is: can a man live with himself without being 100% authentic to the girl and having to run game? I think so. When Donald Trump, Putin, Hitler, Chamberlain, Xi, Mao, Trudeau, Khomeini, Mandela, Kennedy, Bush, Obama, tells LIES to the people because they want to achieve their goal, layman like us on sosuave can run game on a girl to get what we want.

Why is women THE GOAL for men?

Who thought you that?

I trust you know that everything and anything in this world were created by men alone, never women.

And because of that, women's GOAL is actually only...... men.

After all, that's the only way they could ever get anything done.....through men.

Pitiful right?

So since u r a man that's gifted by God and nature to create things or even ideas out of thin air, why r u so busy making women the GOAL when women themselves ARE making men their GOAL.

Do I really need to write this down in a step by step ABC format for it to compute?

 

[Epic Days]

I’ve said it many times over and over again. Women initiate through body language and signs of interest. The guy is NEVER the initiator. In fact if you initiate without any cues from her she might think you are completely inexperienced.

I was waiting for this. @BeExcellent was purposely exaggerating and changing initiative to throwing themselves at men.

Though I’ve had this plenty of times, that’s not what you were communicating. She can’t help it. It’s very manipulative and dangerous. It’s reality twisting. Words have specific meanings and what she was saying was reality twisting. Lawyer stuff that women use in their narrative to keep men on the plantation.

 

[Epic Days]

It makes good sense what you are saying.

But one thing I think you Stormrider are forgetting is the man should focus on his goal with the woman first, and work from there. Now obviously it’s better to be 150% authentic 100% of the time, but she may not buy even if the man is authentic.

In a way it’s like lying on your resume to get hired. Once they hire you and get used to you, it’s much harder for them to fire you. Same thing with women, tell her what she wants to hear until you what you want from her (marriage, child), then you can be 150% authentic.

I got quite a friends who have lied to get married and have a daughter. They are decent guys who work hard, but didn’t have that Prince Harry James Dean type of feel, so they lied to her, ran game. Girl fell for it, got married, now they have a family.

Contrast that with the guy is working on himself, 150% straight with the girl, and authentic, runs no game, yet still single.

Now the question is: can a man live with himself without being 100% authentic to the girl and having to run game? I think so. When Donald Trump, Putin, Hitler, Chamberlain, Xi, Mao, Trudeau, Khomeini, Mandela, Kennedy, Bush, Obama, tells LIES to the people because they want to achieve their goal, layman like us on sosuave can run game on a girl to get what we want.

I’ve mostly been reading but I see what you are saying.

Equating the formula of initiative in work and daily life to women is a flaw. This is where you are going off the rails in your thinking.

When you approach or interact in such a manner, “she is the goal”, like others goals in life, you are actually validating her. She is getting everything she wanted by doing nothing. She is not worthy yet.

If she is attracted or “vibing” with you, she needs to signal you, get close to you, or in some manner initiate. That is what she wants anyway.

You are intellectually trying to ally up or combine the principles of men on a mission and the obtaining of women. It doesn’t work.

You are intellectually trying to obtain a woman. This is the wrong model.

 

[Epic Days]

I know. That's why I ignored her. She pulled a sazc and started playing games with me on purpose thinking I'd fall for it. What I usually do is dismiss instead.

Most women have no use beyond sex. And once they start overstaying their welcome and pushing past boundaries, you have to put them out to pasture.

Sazc was a master manipulator. She held stupid men on the plantation. Probably the most dangerous woman on these boards.

You did right by slamming Be. It was disgusting.