Wanted to see if OLD is as bad as eveeyone keeps saying. TLDR it isn't.

[marmel75]

You are, how often do women approach you in public? You have been at the top so long you don't even realize haha.



This is not the experience even of a 7-8/10 male.

I was referring to straight up looks. Yes, I am built well, but I put in amounts of work at the gym that most people wouldn't dream of doing as well as ensuring my diet was on point.

 

[marmel75]

Try switching your profile picture to that of a 4/10 minority guy and then tell me how many dates/replies you can get.

Shouldn't be hard, right? OLD is easy? ANYONE can get laid in 2 weeks on it?

Here's some random 4-5/10 dudes:

Prove me wrong. Switch your profile photos to someone who looks like that and then show everyone how easy it still is. Can't do it? Didn't think so.

First off, the problem isnt the way they look as much as it is the way they portray themselves in the pictures. They look like dorky computer dudes. I know because I am a dorky computer dude that doesn't look like one or act like one for the most part, but I work with a lot of people just like that.

Of course if you put no effort into dressing nice or into taking good pictures then what do you expect? These guys COULD probably do OK on OLD but not with these pictures.

 

[skinnyguy]

It is also extremely easy to sit here and make fun of or blame good looking guys for winning some genetic lottery and being "idiots"... instead of hitting the gym, working hard, learning how to dress yourself and becoming a generally more attractive man.

You’re assuming all ethnic guys are lazy.

I know guys who put a ton of work in the gym, make 6 figures and still can’t get laid. Meanwhile Jerome who works at Burger King is cleaning up online. “Hard work” doesn’t always pay off for guys. Those guys should stay away from OLD.

 

[marmel75]

You’re assuming all ethnic guys are lazy.

I know guys who put a ton of work in the gym, make 6 figures and still can’t get laid. Meanwhile Jerome who works at Burger King is cleaning up online. “Hard work” doesn’t always pay off for guys. Those guys should stay away from OLD.

But that's the problem. That's only PART of it. You still have to put your best foot forward so to speak whether its through your profile, your pictures, your interactions with women, etc.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

No. I think any man (ethic or not) who blames racism or anyone or anything else for their failures are lazy.

Big difference.

All of those "ugly" men in the photos provided, men who don't get women, do not fail because they are ethnic. They fail because they have weak physiques, a sh*tty, ragged sense of fashion, fvcked up/dated hair cuts and more than likely have ZERO persona with women...all things that can be improved upon drastically. I can post 1,000 pictures of white guys with the same problems.

I know plenty of ethnic guys both rich and poor who slay it with women and plenty of white guys rich and poor who do not.

The percentage of circumstances in which men are rejected solely due to skin color due to actual racism and bigotry is small enough that, if you really focus on that as the sole cause of all of your problems, you are placing far too much blame elsewhere.

. You have alot in your control. You can get your body fat to 10% or under, you can wear fashionable clothing, you can have muscle, you can have game and social skills.

 

[JonnyX]

I think it's hilarious that people here actually think hard work solves everything in life and the world is fair.

Since when has the world ever been fair?

I was born with a top 1-2% IQ. This let me breeze through school and I now make >$200K /year on 4 days a week work. Was this fair? Not at all. I would never claim it was. If I was born with bottom 1-2% IQ, could I have the same? Again absolutely not.

There is an enormous burden of research that has well proven at this point that getting women is not much different and most of your success and failure is dictated by the genetic lottery.

For example, this is what is happening in society with dating for ethnic men (Chinese/Indian ie. "Other"):

We are at a point in society where JUST BEING INDIAN/CHINESE alone irrespective of any other factor will lead to a >33% chance of you not being able to get laid. And it wasn't like this 20 years ago. Culture is shifting and it is destroying certain men more than others.

Here for comparison is women's sexual activity, where you can see Chinese/Indian women are actually ****ing at record levels (just not guys of their own races):

Yet people here would just say "You're lazy if you complain! It's your fault!"

To get laid (in ANY way) as a Chinese/Indian guy you now have to be in the top 2/3 of your race. That's just for sex of any kind. To get a slim or attractive girl, you have to be top 20-30% minimum now in my personal experience.

Yet how do you do that if you're also born short or don't have a handsome face? Short by itself is also a massive strike against you. Read the struggles of guys on reddit.com/r/short if you don't believe me. Tall and average height guys always play this down because they don't have to experience it first hand.

I am not a lazy person. I am always busy and working on something. I have enough hobbies with high degrees of expertise in that I could work 3-4 other jobs completely unrelated to my current field at a professional level.

Regarding dating, I've been in and out of the PUA community for 15 years now since I was in undergrad. I have hung out with guys from my Lair back when that was common (not sure if it was) in the years before The Game came out. I have cold approached hundreds to thousands of women in clubs and bars.

I have spent thousands of dollars on nice clothes of every type. My social skills are way above average and always have been (again this is something I was born with). I have never had trouble making friends or succeeding generally in social groups. I have low inhibition levels and I'm not afraid to approach women or make an effort.

I work out at least 5 days a week and always have. I eat healthy and always have. Yesterday my diet consisted of chicken breasts, lentils, mackerel, spinach, broccoli, pistachios, blackberries, and my only cheat was 3 sticks of a Kit Kat bar. That's normal for me except most days I don't cheat. I've done intermittent fasting, keto, isocaloric diets, read entire books on nutrition and training, counted calories with myfitnesspal.com, done extensive bulks and cuts with varying degrees of excess and deficiency, tried different splits, tried more gym, less gym, more cardio, less cardio.

So after all that, am I ripped? Well no I'm not. I'm in the same "okay" looking shape as I was when I was 22. Well if you actually study the science, you'll learn:

"Asian Indians tend to have more abdominal adipose tissue, less lean body mass (LBM) and higher magnitude of insulin resistance (IR) despite falling in the normal range of body mass index (BMI) [1]. The high value of waist hip ratio in Asian Indians may be due to less lean mass of the hips and greater fat at the levels of waist [2]. Another study showed that Asian Indian men have low muscle mass and 30% more total body fat (BF) than other ethnic groups [3].""http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0040977
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/2amv7d/are_indian_men_genetically_predisposed_to_be/ciww5n4

I have spent dozens to hundreds of hours taking pictures for online dating. I have had friends take pictures. I have taken pictures using tripods and timers. I have exotic pictures from travel. I have normal pictures. I have tried various profiles. I have literally copied and pasted profiles from guys who claim their profile is "successful" because it's "well written". None of it makes any difference.

The fundamental problem in discussions like this is that if you truly believe in a "fair and just world" where "everyone is born with equal opportunity to succeed", you cannot be reasoned with, because you are essentially saying someone with retard tier IQ can do as well in school/employment as someone like me, or that a 5'7" guy can be an NBA star as easily as Lebron because Mugsy Bogues did it once.

If you are willing to lie and twist about how the world actually works, just so you can tell yourself you "earned it" and you are a "harder worker" than everyone else, then there can be no honest conversation. Same with if you assume everyone who has failed at something is "lazy".

I am not lazy. I never have been. I have done far more than most in the pursuit of trying to become more attractive to women. I haven't even discussed my experiences with surgery or steroids. I still exercise daily. I still eat healthy. I still hope one day things will be easier.

But the actual truth is likely they won't. I've already maxed out my SMV as much as I likely can, and the charts above show the racial bias against men like me is accelerating annually. It will likely be >40-50% celibacy for guys like me in just 5 years.

Currently the only interest I can get is from chubby/fat girls who I don't want. At this rate, looking objectively at the evidence, the most likely outcome is that I won't even have that in another 5 years.

So sure, online dating is "easy". If you're so ridiculously attractive that having girls hit on you every day walking down the street is normal for you as it is for OP. We sure as hell aren't all born that way. And no, being born at a disadvantage and not being able to change that doesn't make you "lazy".

 

[Roober]

No. I think any man (ethic or not) who blames racism or anyone or anything else for their failures are lazy.

Big difference.

All of those "ugly" men in the photos provided, men who don't get women, do not fail because they are ethnic. They fail because they have weak physiques, a sh*tty, ragged sense of fashion, fvcked up/dated hair cuts and more than likely have ZERO persona with women...all things that can be improved upon drastically. I can post 1,000 pictures of white guys with the same problems.

I know plenty of ethnic guys both rich and poor who slay it with women and plenty of white guys rich and poor who do not.

The percentage of circumstances in which men are rejected solely due to skin color due to actual racism and bigotry is small enough that, if you really focus on that as the sole cause of all of your problems, you are placing far too much blame elsewhere.

And I'm willing to bet the ones that play the victim card complain about those exact same behaviors from the women they encounter. Water seeks it's own level?

 

[marmel75]

No. I think any man (ethic or not) who blames racism or anyone or anything else for their failures are lazy.

Big difference.

All of those "ugly" men in the photos provided, men who don't get women, do not fail because they are ethnic. They fail because they have weak physiques, a sh*tty, ragged sense of fashion, fvcked up/dated hair cuts and more than likely have ZERO persona with women...all things that can be improved upon drastically. I can post 1,000 pictures of white guys with the same problems.

I know plenty of ethnic guys both rich and poor who slay it with women and plenty of white guys rich and poor who do not.

The percentage of circumstances in which men are rejected solely due to skin color due to actual racism and bigotry is small enough that, if you really focus on that as the sole cause of all of your problems, you are placing far too much blame elsewhere.

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. If you aren't willing to improve yourself in some areas that are lacking then you really dont have room to talk. If things within your control are not addressed by you then you are only fooling yourself.

Its not enough to simply try and accentuate your positive traits, you need to actively look to improve your weak traits as well...

 

[JonnyX]

And what happens when you already have done everything you can to improve and you're still not making the cut?

Or if the biases are getting stronger and stronger against your racial group every year so that you have to continually improve just to "tread water"?

If you haven't read it, please see my more in depth reply on page 3 here:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/thread...aying-tldr-it-isnt.249760/page-3#post-2553316

I am still open to any suggestions. I would like my life to be better. I'd like the "easy" experience you guys claim to have.

But the reality is I am coming to learn advice only goes so far. Shaquile O'Neil can't teach an average 5'4" tall guy how to dunk. Shaquile can dunk because he was born to be tall as ****. And unless you have incredible fast twitch muscle, at 5'4" you're not gonna be able to as well.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

And what happens when you already have done everything you can to improve and you're still not making the cut?

Or if the biases are getting stronger and stronger against your racial group every year so that you have to continually improve just to "tread water"?

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/thread...aying-tldr-it-isnt.249760/page-3#post-2553316

Well u haven't. You'd be a fit as fvck fitness model with game and style.

 

[JonnyX]

Well u haven't. You'd be a fit as fvck fitness model with game and style.

My "game" was always better than any other guy in my Lair. Most guys always wanted to wing with me because I was naturally good at it. Game only goes so far. Even the average looking PUA pros have an admitted less than or around 1% **** rate from cold approach.

I discussed my efforts with trying to get fit like a fitness model and inability to do so despite religiously healthy lifestyle and every type of workout and diet regimen, plus some of the unfortunate science that has confirmed people of my race are least likely to get ripped. Do you think I am lying about my exercise or diet? I am not. I have even tried steroids but they caused massive hair shedding so I had to stop.

I have great style. Most of my clothes are quite expensive and very nice.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Agree that you can't really reason with them, they have massive normalcy bias.

At the same time, Fatalists are not particularly reasonable either. You need to date below what you feel you deserve and be less superficial if you aren't physically attractive or extremely charistmatic or famous, that simple. This is my advice to you.

It's not even "below" him. Some of these people have awesome personalities. The superficial approach burns men and women.

 

[marmel75]

My "game" was always better than any other guy in my Lair. Most guys always wanted to wing with me because I was naturally good at it. Game only goes so far. Even the average looking PUA pros have an admitted less than or around 1% **** rate from cold approach.

I discussed my efforts with trying to get fit like a fitness model and inability to do so despite religiously healthy lifestyle and every type of workout and diet regimen, plus some of the unfortunate science that has confirmed people of my race are least likely to get ripped. Do you think I am lying about my exercise or diet? I am not. I have even tried steroids but they caused massive hair shedding so I had to stop.

I have great style. Most of my clothes are quite expensive and very nice.

Have you gotten your T levels checked? If you having issues getting fit you might have low T...it's pretty common these days. That's addressable by you.

 

[JonnyX]

Have you gotten your T levels checked? If you having issues getting fit you might have low T...it's pretty common these days. That's addressable by you.

Oh yeah at least a half dozen times I've checked it and my levels are perfectly fine.

I've spent a lot of time reading medical research to try to figure out why I can't get buff like some of my friends (who put a tiny fraction of the effort in for twice the results). There's actually a lot of science to back the claim that some people are "high responders" and some are "low responders" to exercise and this difference exists completely independently from testosterone levels.

It has to do with how much the muscle hypertrophy genes are "switched on" in response to stress, and how much hypertrophy inhibition (eg. myostatin) you have at baseline.

For example, this study compared muscle gains and genetic expression for guys put on a similar exercise and diet program:

They found a pretty linear correlation between muscle gain and the amount certain genes were "switched on" in response to the exercise:

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00901.2010

Guys like The Rock are enormous in part because of steroids, but they would be enormous even without steroids. Things like gene expression are the main reason.

As another example, myostatin levels have recently become well understood as a major limiting factor for muscle gain. If you have high myostatin levels, you will never be able to put on significant amounts of muscle, while if you have low levels, the muscle will gain very easily.

Flex Wheeler is now known to carry a genetic mutation that means he has severely low myostatin levels. It is a combination of his training and this genetic mutation that allowed him to reach this physique:

http://prohormonepodcast.com/bodybuilding/myostatin-deficiency/

I have always dreamed that I could maybe make up for my face/height/race by working out harder, eating cleaner, and getting buffer. But I've been doing it for 15 years with every approach I can read about and my physique remains unremarkable. It seems most likely I am the counterpoint to a guy like Flex.

Averages are maintained by having people born on either end of the bell curve. For every guy like Flex, there's got to be someone with the opposite predisposition.

I'm still gonna keep exercising and eating well. I believe in taking good care of your body so you don't fall apart with age. But it's seeming less and less likely every year that I'll ever be able to "compensate" by getting ripped. If it was gonna happen it would have happened already in my 20s.

As for "lowering standards", that's easy to say when you don't have to date fat chicks. I find fat chicks disgusting. I can't get hard over that. Given the choice, I'd rather just stay abstinent, or pay girls once in a while for sex. If you could be happy banging fat girls after all the same effort I've put into life, then you have a more flexible mind and sexual preference than me.

 

[JonnyX]

I doubt it. Game absolutely destroys fatalism and absolutist thinking.

What do you doubt? That cold approach leads to 1% sex rate? Krauser PUA has posted his stats for years and he gets about that, and that's as an average white guy traveling to impoverished countries to maximize his success.

Or do you doubt everyone loved to wing with me? I was not fatalistic at all back then. I was very idealistic and believed if I worked hard enough at anything I could succeed. But many years of trying since has taught me differently.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

What do you doubt? That cold approach leads to 1% sex rate? Krauser PUA has posted his stats for years and he gets about that, and that's as an average white guy traveling to impoverished countries to maximize his success.

Or do you doubt everyone loved to wing with me? I was not fatalistic at all back then. I was very idealistic and believed if I worked hard enough at anything I could succeed. But many years of trying since has taught me differently.

So you took EFFECTIVE approaches to whatever it is, considered the terrain, the politics, the rules?

 

[JonnyX]

Continue crying little babies. Most of you have the ability to get much better looking. You are just too lazy and don’t have the will to do what you need to do to get there.

Fatalists are so pathetic.

Okay, can you tell me what you have done to get your looks?

I have done:

- 15 years of religious gym and clean diet
- Jaw surgery
- Hair surgery and hair meds to keep my hair good
- Prescription anti-aging/anti-wrinkle/anti-acne creams
- $60+ hair cuts monthly
- Closets full of designer clothes
- Steroids for 3 months (stopping when it caused my hair to shed more)
- Maximized income/wealth
- Maximized hobbies
- Maximized social skills
- Practiced cold approach on >1000 girls
- Spent dozens to hundreds of hours taking pictures and building/rebuilding my online profiles for OLD

Where in this have I been "lazy"? What have you done that is so much more?

 

[marmel75]

Oh yeah at least a half dozen times I've checked it and my levels are perfectly fine.

I've spent a lot of time reading medical research to try to figure out why I can't get buff like some of my friends (who put a tiny fraction of the effort in for twice the results). There's actually a lot of science to back the claim that some people are "high responders" and some are "low responders" to exercise and this difference exists completely independently from testosterone levels.

It has to do with how much the muscle hypertrophy genes are "switched on" in response to stress, and how much hypertrophy inhibition (eg. myostatin) you have at baseline.

For example, this study compared muscle gains and genetic expression for guys put on a similar exercise and diet program:

They found a pretty linear correlation between muscle gain and the amount certain genes were "switched on" in response to the exercise:

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00901.2010

Guys like The Rock are enormous in part because of steroids, but they would be enormous even without steroids. Things like gene expression are the main reason.

As another example, myostatin levels have recently become well understood as a major limiting factor for muscle gain. If you have high myostatin levels, you will never be able to put on significant amounts of muscle, while if you have low levels, the muscle will gain very easily.

Flex Wheeler is now known to carry a genetic mutation that means he has severely low myostatin levels. It is a combination of his training and this genetic mutation that allowed him to reach this physique:

http://prohormonepodcast.com/bodybuilding/myostatin-deficiency/

I have always dreamed that I could maybe make up for my face/height/race by working out harder, eating cleaner, and getting buffer. But I've been doing it for 15 years with every approach I can read about and my physique remains unremarkable. It seems most likely I am the counterpoint to a guy like Flex.

Averages are maintained by having people born on either end of the bell curve. For every guy like Flex, there's got to be someone with the opposite predisposition.

I'm still gonna keep exercising and eating well. I believe in taking good care of your body so you don't fall apart with age. But it's seeming less and less likely every year that I'll ever be able to "compensate" by getting ripped. If it was gonna happen it would have happened already in my 20s.

As for "lowering standards", that's easy to say when you don't have to date fat chicks. I find fat chicks disgusting. I can't get hard over that. Given the choice, I'd rather just stay abstinent, or pay girls once in a while for sex. If you could be happy banging fat girls after all the same effort I've put into life, then you have a more flexible mind and sexual preference than me.

Yes IGF-1 levels have been found to be very important as well, in some cases more important than Testosterone levels for muscle growth.

What have you tried in regards to training? Sometimes simply changing your training regimen can pay big results. Everyone responds to different types of training differently.

For instance I respond best to either high intensity/low rest period training or low reps/heavy weight. Training in other methods works for me to some degree but clearly are not as effective as either of those. Obviously the body can only take so much heavy lifting so I have to go through cycles of about 4-6 weeks or so on and off the heavy weights so my CNS doesnt get fried. I know when its time to switch off when I have trouble falling asleep at night...

 

[guru1000]

Okay, can you tell me what you have done to get your looks?

I have done:

- 15 years of religious gym and clean diet
- Jaw surgery
- Hair surgery and hair meds to keep my hair good
- Prescription anti-aging/anti-wrinkle/anti-acne creams
- $60+ hair cuts monthly
- Closets full of designer clothes
- Steroids for 3 months (stopping when it caused my hair to shed more)
- Maximized income/wealth
- Maximized hobbies
- Maximized social skills
- Practiced cold approach on >1000 girls
- Spent dozens to hundreds of hours taking pictures and building/rebuilding my online profiles for OLD

Where in this have I been "lazy"? What have you done that is so much more?

If you are sincere in needing help, post your pics and I will tell you exactly what you need to do with precision.

 

[JonnyX]

If you are sincere in needing help, post your pics and I will tell you exactly what you need to do with precision.

If I had any reason to trust you I would PM them to you. But I don't since I don't know you, and I don't want any of my posts associated with my professional life. I could lose my job in this #METOO world just for the things I've said here, so that's not an option. My job is one of the best things I have going in my life. I'm not going to risk it for anything. In 2018, everyone has to be politically correct 24/7 or careful about anonymity 24/7 or you can easily become the next target of a feminist witch hunt.

I am continually working on it. I am lifting weights between posting (and will continue to do so until I die even if I never look buff from it). I continue to take my hair pills every day (even if they have risks and negatives) so my hairline can stay good. I will continue to eat well and dress well.

Guys like Krauser cheat their lot in life by traveling to impoverished countries to maximize their appeal. I've considered it. But Roosh on the other hand has tried to do the same and had mostly massive amounts of failure everywhere he goes. Also, when you consider the cost of thousands of dollars for a flight from America to Eastern Europe, then walking on the streets all day to hit on girls who may not even speak English and there are greater risks of race-related violence from men, it doesn't seem worthwhile (vs prostitution or sugar babies at home which are more accessible regularly, reliable, and convenient).

I've mostly just tried to get comfortable with my life and not be dependent on women or anyone else to do the things I want to do. But as a man, I think I will never stop wanting to be sexually successful or sexually free. It's just how we're wired.

I may get some more jaw surgery (revision work) in the next year or two, but I'd be 40 or near 40 by the time I'm back out of braces from that as it takes years each time, and it comes with big risks too. There aren't always any easy options in life. Guys who find all this "easy" and don't have to go through all this are very lucky.