Being too much of a cold fish

[ChristopherColumbus]

True, although I'd caution against ignoring game in this context as well. As Rollo said, you want to be the best of both alpha and beta to satisfy both parts of a woman's hypergamous needs. I wouldn't say that just switching to "a warmer mode of interaction" is the best advice for every situation given that being too warm when she requires masculinity for whatever situation may push you too far into beta territory. That said, sticking to pure alpha game and not providing a sense of security will doom a relationship as well. Game does not become irrelevant, it becomes more nuanced and pluralistic to match hypergamy's pluralism. There are times in a relationship when you must put your foot down with coldness and times when you need to be warmer. Adaptation and understanding are key. Although I'm still learning myself at the moment so with more time I should have a more solid idea.

Sure, but I think it could be a difference of interpretation on 'game'. I don't think 'game' is completely definitive of manhood. I don't think it is the be all and end all of masculinity. I think at some point we should transcend game.

 

[ohrein]

Sure, but I think it could be a difference of interpretation on 'game'. I don't think 'game' is completely definitive of manhood. I don't think it is the be all and end all of masculinity. I think at some point we should transcend game.

Depends on your definition of game. Transcend as in it becomes innate because you are focused centrally? I think game and masculinity are interchangeable. I think if masculinity wasn't in crisis and that it was understood, game wouldn't need to exist. But I'm curious what you mean. Please go into some depth.

 

[upcoming_DJ]

thank you very much, all! great discussion here and I'm learning a lot! much appreciated.

just an update: she reached out again lastnight via text (I KNOW SHE WANTS TO SEE ME) so I assumed that. I waited a couple of hours and called her. Sure enough, we are spending the weekend together.

I will have a proper talk with her, and feel out if we are both on the same page as to what we both want here, and we'll take it from there.

@ohrein thanks for clarifying about being the best alpha when needed and the best beta when called for - depending on her cycle or attitudes. This again, opens up my rigid frame/thought.

@Amante Silvestre and you're right. I should not be looking up her pinterest and analyzing every little thing. This is pure feminine behavior. I will try as much to refrain from doing this. I think one of the things is that I also love psychology and I'm a very curious person!

 

[upcoming_DJ]

one more question: how should I bring up the relationship talk? both Corey Wayne and Rollo Tomassi talk about the male not bringing up the relationship talk - that this is feminine role and she should initiative it herself. I felt like she has tried to before but in more subtle language, and I never opened her up on it. Rollo Tomassi said you CANNOT NEGOTIATE DESIRE. The desire must come from her.

So how can I hold frame whilst still trying to find more stable ground?

thanks!

 

[upcoming_DJ]

just read this: https://therationalmale.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/

I'll have to screen her some more and make sure she's not this. She does show some signs.

 

[ohrein]

one more question: how should I bring up the relationship talk? both Corey Wayne and Rollo Tomassi talk about the male not bringing up the relationship talk - that this is feminine role and she should initiative it herself. I felt like she has tried to before but in more subtle language, and I never opened her up on it. Rollo Tomassi said you CANNOT NEGOTIATE DESIRE. The desire must come from her.

So how can I hold frame whilst still trying to find more stable ground?

thanks!

You don't ask for exclusivity, the woman does. You don't hold frame and find stable ground, your frame is your stable ground. The woman either comes into it or you do not continue to see her. It's up to you to determine what you deem acceptable or not. Within that frame is where you can be softer. If a woman is pleasing you then you don't need to be the cold hard alpha constantly. There are very few women who "want" only aloof alpha and they're psychologically damaged in my opinion and experience. (Think unhealthy attachment styles)

just read this: https://therationalmale.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/

I'll have to screen her some more and make sure she's not this. She does show some signs.

It's unlikely, think it's like 5% of the population. I've only met one BPD that I know of and that's only because she told me. That was an interesting couple of hours of conversation (we weren't dating).

 

[Macaframalama]

now, if she leaves me because of hypergamy or out of frustration that she couldn't "tame" me - and auto rejected, fine.

but if I have a shot with her, I'd take it

so I'm already preparing for her departure if so be it. No biggie. i've got many options

I'd like to try it with this girl, but I also read Rollo Tommasi's "2 guitars" blog and that sort of shook me up.

Your thoughts and feelings about her aren't congruent with your actions and you are ending up playing yourself. Then, you are hiding behind ego protection and passing the buck on to her.Too much "rule and regulation" and too little natural calibration and authenticity. It's like your every move is dominated by the script and you are essentially enslaved by it. It's also why she's posting her feelings to social media. She has tried to establish a line of communication and you have killed it dead in the water with too much distance and aloofness, which is an error on your part. We are supposed to be the logical ones, lest our relationships be dictated by emotions.

I've read about not paying attention to what a woman says, but what she does.

This is a two way street. It's time to lose the script and take control of the wheel yourself. You express that you would like more with her, yet refer to her as a plate and treat her like another random. However, I suspect she's probably getting her needs gratified by someone else at this point or she's made herself comfortable with an exit, at the very least.

 

[Macaframalama]

True, although I'd caution against ignoring game in this context as well. As Rollo said, you want to be the best of both alpha and beta to satisfy both parts of a woman's hypergamous needs. I wouldn't say that just switching to "a warmer mode of interaction" is the best advice for every situation given that being too warm when she requires masculinity for whatever situation may push you too far into beta territory. That said, sticking to pure alpha game and not providing a sense of security will doom a relationship as well. Game does not become irrelevant, it becomes more nuanced and pluralistic to match hypergamy's pluralism. There are times in a relationship when you must put your foot down with coldness and times when you need to be warmer. Adaptation and understanding are key. Although I'm still learning myself at the moment so with more time I should have a more solid idea.

This thread is prime example of game eating itself and letting the game play you. When, one transcends, there are no hard and fast rules, just spectrums. We die by the rules in which we live. Rigid, predictable, unbalanced. The rules are there to give beginners a fighting chance and get the ball rolling. At some point, every man has to level up. We are a participation trophy society, that feels the need to win at any cost, when in reality, the greatest lessons are learned in our losses and the experiences of navigating, thinking and learning to float the spectrum ourselves.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Your thoughts and feelings about her aren't congruent with your actions and you are ending up playing yourself. Then, you are hiding behind ego protection and passing the buck on to her.Too much "rule and regulation" and too little natural calibration and authenticity. It's like your every move is dominated by the script and you are essentially enslaved by it. It's also why she's posting her feelings to social media. She has tried to establish a line of communication and you have killed it dead in the water with too much distance and aloofness, which is an error on your part. We are supposed to be the logical ones, lest our relationships be dictated by emotions.

This is a two way street. It's time to lose the script and take control of the wheel yourself. You express that you would like more with her, yet refer to her as a plate and treat her like another random. However, I suspect she's probably getting her needs gratified by someone else at this point or she's made herself comfortable with an exit, at the very least.

We are effing up when we have to do this excessive to keep her in alignment. It's best if her desire and her valuation of you keeps her where she needs to be .

Still occasionally some game might be required to alter "distance" and emotion but you shouldn't be working so hard at it.

 

[Macaframalama]

We are effing up when we have to do this excessive to keep her in alignment. It's best if her desire and her valuation of you keeps her where she needs to be .

Still occasionally some game might be required to alter "distance" and emotion but you shouldn't be working so hard at it.

No, I imagine keeping up with it all feels like a second job to allot of guys.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

To much thought. Our game needs to be do that she works for us. So she's putting this same amount of thought in .

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Depends on your definition of game. Transcend as in it becomes innate because you are focused centrally? I think game and masculinity are interchangeable. I think if masculinity wasn't in crisis and that it was understood, game wouldn't need to exist. But I'm curious what you mean. Please go into some depth.

Game is the idea that there is a game to be played with the object of winning. As with any game, there are a set of rules, or rather skills, to be learnt in order to become proficient. It's best compared to an art than a science.

Game in our context is about gaming women in order to seduce them one way or the other. But it's just a game, we can pick it up or put it down. So in this sense it is not definitive of masculinity, just as women are not absolutely central to our lives [though they may be a going concern].

That said, I do think that we should have an 'ultimate concern' in life... a set of meaningful goals to strive for. Perhaps because we largely lack that today, in the cultural sense, women have tended to fill the vacuum...it's perceived that the erotic adventure is the only adventure left to us.

This 'ultimate concern' should be of an existential proportion and involve such spheres as philosophy, art, and religion etc. These activities lead us into a process of becoming, into the pursuit of excellence. This is what I mean by transcending game.. as the significance of these activities are trivialized in applying them to the notion of game.

A lot of this, what is essentially old-fashioned ethics, has re-surfaced in the game community under the rubric of 'inner game'. But inner game is actually the opposite of game, which is always about learning a set of outward skills/ rules. Inner 'game' is about self-development, 'you are enough', outcome independence etc, which potentially shifts the focus away from women, where women now become a more peripheral concern. This is essential in my opinion, for as long as they are the central or ultimate concern, we empower them too much by disempowering ourselves.

 

[MrWood]

what all DJ's must realize... is that game is simply the natural way men should interact with women
game is leveraging those characteristics which appeal to the majority of women...
and understanding how certain types of actions and behaviors are advantageous or detrimental toward that (your) goal

IMHO there is a fine line between being a nice guy, and being the man. "game" informs us of what we men THINK women want vs what they are actually attracted to.

 

[upcoming_DJ]

Hey DJs, thank you all for a very constructive thread and discussion!

an updated field report;

We spent the weekend together, and I took the opportunity to talk to her, set down some ground rules (which she agreed to without any objections) so I will be gauging her actions going forward.

here are some of the things that came up over the weekend;

• We continued to air out about that big argument. She said she thought that I had something serious going on with the ex because the ex was talking passionately about "We need to solve this now and I wont leave until we talk" and she stared down the ex until the ex walked away. So I just clarified things with her telling her me and the ex have nothing and that it's not the last time this will happen, there are other exes that are just as passionate but that I have no interest in the past. I also clarified that when I'm finished with someone, they never hear from me again. I always keep the past in the past. I stressed that part.
  
• I asked her what she's looking for and what she wants. She said I want you. I said, do you mean you want exclusivity? (flipping the script so that she is the one to assert that, and make it known that its her desire) and she said so what are we? it seems she thought we were already naturally in a relationship. I still did not give her a clear answer. Dropping her off home last night, once again she asked "so babe are you my friend now?" and I just replied with "so that's what you really want darling?" and she left with a smile
• now re the quotes she has been posting on pinterest lately - it seems they had nothing to do with me directly. In our conversation yesterday evening, when we were talking about my ex I told her that my ex called and send messages this week but that I just ignored her. That they will continue calling or texting but they wont get a reply from me. So she brought up the fact that HER EX IS REACHING BACK OUT TO HER. She CLAIMS the last time was 2 weeks ago, and that he told her "can we please talk". Now, for those who saw my other threads - I reported how she went out about 2 weekends ago and I went out too, and I called her around 4am to tease her and she didn't answer my call but sent me 3 texts right after with "baaabe", "I'm alive", "on my way home", ...... then 25 minutes later she tries calling me about 3 times but she didn't hear from me until late sunday night or monday morning if I can recall. Then the following week, she was being very unusual. She would leave me on "read" or answer me much later than her usual 5 minute time frame replies. Then last weekend whilst having sex, I thought she was about to *** when she broke down crying. And then these quotes she pinned last week. So it's making sense now, her behaviors - and if her behaviors are indicative of the ex boyfriend reaching out to her, it means that he still affects her on an emotional level and she may be trying to repress it or trying to get over it. I told her that I find it strange she would still have her ex as friends on facebook and haven't blocked him on either fb or whatsapp or phone. She said that she feels it would be "weak" on her part, and that it would show that she can't be free with having him there and not wanting or not talking to him. But I cant see why she would still want to be accessible to him.
  
• What confuses me is that as much as I have been "alpha" and in many ways "unavailable" to her, she continues to chase me, and treats me well, and this past weekend for example we had sex like 6 times straight, so the sex seems to be getting better and her "desire" doesn't seem to be waning at all, the contrary it seems to be getting higher. But I have been told that this could also be a sign that she is cheating???
• so i told her that the only reason a man will continue to contact a woman is if she answers, even if denying him or telling him to **** off. there's no more powerful language than silence. So I said to her that she is answering and thats the reason he's still reaching out to her, after so much time they've "broken up" - about 2 or 3 years. Why is he still in the picture? but she said that she doesn't answer him and that he still tries to talk to her and that he just wants to be "disgusting"
• We spoke about some boundaries in relationships and what are things that I will totally not accept. I said to her that she has the freedom to do whatever she wants to do. But if I see or hear about her doing some of these things, she can forget about me forever. She sure understood what I was telling her
• I also told her what being in a relationship with me will be like (again, living in my frame) - and told her that some weekends I want to the traveling, some weekends I'm on my purpose and will have business to take care of, and some weekends I want to relax. So she questioned if she has been insistent on us doing things (I saw this as a red flag) and usually I would deflect the question but I answered and said "well, sometimes we're traveling and you're already telling me "so babe when will go here or there" or "babe so when are you taking me to ________ " ... and I finished off by saying that I go where I want to go and she is welcomed to come. Implying that I won't take her where she wants to go (I am not dropping in her frame). She lastnight on the way to dropping her home, she randomly brings up "babe I don't want you to think that I'm just around because of the trips. I want you to know it's much more than that. It's much deeper than that. The trips is just a bonus". again, words sounds nice but why did she find the need to mention that? I always tell her - i don't buy words I buy actions. This left me thinking. Is she guilty and wants to dissuade it?
• I did say to her "you know what, I appreciate that you want to share things about your past relationship. However the past has served its purpose and it should stay there. Unless you haven't closed off, and if thats the case then you can go your way, then there is no need to continue discussing it". So she says she understands and that its true. (someone had suggested on SoSuave to lead her to sort of "cut the past" and thats a decision she has to make on her own, but with a man's leadership. It's like allowing her to leave it behind.)

I'm monitoring her behavior. And I will monitor the situation with the ex-boyfriend and eject quickly if that is what it boils down to.

it is a big red flag however. hence the reason I did not out rightly commit to a relationship.

@BeExcellent what would your lady wisdom advise in this case here? thanks!

 

[upcoming_DJ]

I'm thinking should I;

• ask her to send me screenshots of her ex reaching out to her
• ask her if I were to look at her phone and seeing a conversation with her ex, if I'd have reason to be mad

what is the best way to find out if she is indeed keeping in touch with him or if she still has feelings for him?

when she mentioned pinterest this past weekend, I asked her to show me her pins and she refused, saying she's got some secret boards and stuff, and that she had some "deep stuff" pinned, and was telling me how pinterest works (I pretended now to know what it is or how it works). so I am not sure if this is her way of hiding these things...

 

[Visionist]

Girls will hide things in their online social groups. I had one girl talking and laughing about me behind my back on a group I wasn't a part of, with some of my other friends. She would share messages I'd sent her in this group. One friend told me about it and I cut her off instantly. I trusted my friend even though I hadn't seen screenshots of these offending messages. She never found out which of my friends had told me, and pretended to be angry I'd cut her off.

 

[MrWood]

• ask her to send me screenshots of her ex reaching out to her
• ask her if I were to look at her phone and seeing a conversation with her ex, if I'd have reason to be mad

what is the best way to find out if she is indeed keeping in touch with him or if she still has feelings for him?

so AFC/beta it hurts

 

[mrgoodstuff]

so AFC/beta it hurts

A bunch of over thinking.

 

[Macaframalama]

Too many games, paranoia and no trust. Dude, this is not living.

 

[upcoming_DJ]

@AJ84