Being too much of a cold fish

[upcoming_DJ]

hey DJs,

I've enjoyed the time on here and reading some very insightful advice that has really opened my mind up to dating and "game" and of course, frame. This is long but there are several things I wanted to put together so that you can analyze and let me know your thoughts and advice going forward.

With this particular girl who was a plate, I decided to start dating more exclusively. We have no official "label" as I've been focused on hooking up and having fun for the most part. However it's been a little over 3 months already and I've seen her interest level go up over time to a point where's doing almost 100% of the pursuing. Let me be clear: since our first date, she's been doing about 95% of the pursuing. I did the pursuing prior to that for a couple of months. She lives 2 hours away from me. We've seen each other almost every weekend and have had so many different experiences (many new to her).

Most of what I've learnt about game, frame and being a man came primarily for these sources:

• David Deangelo
• Coach Corey Wayne (youtube)
  
• Alpha Male Strategies (youtube)
• Chateau Heartiste
• and recently, The Rational Male by Rollo Tomassi

now, after coming across Heartiste and Alpha Male Strategies and also David Deangelo, I've found Corey Wayne's stuff a little too "beta" for the frame I've built.

now here's a couple of things to consider:

• I'm overweight (almost 400 lbs. and at 6'1 height) and 27 years old
  
• I make up for being overweight with my character - killer charm and humor, confidence, leadership abilities (I've always been leading organizations or teams where I live), and with these have had social status and market value minus physical
• Girls can pick up on this because whenever with me, they feel my presence, they see the respect and admiration I receive from others (even with higher status than myself), they see how I can easily navigation any social situation and how much people I know wherever we go in my country. This girl I've been dating even called me "Prime Minister" over the past weekend, before our argument.

with that said, I've always been able to attract the girls I "focus" on - meaning the ones I go after without a doubt.

So with this plate, I could see where she has almost been to the "falling in love" part - with her actions and what she's been saying.

However, and I'm not sure if its my blue bill conditioning, I believe I have been too much of a cold fish with this one girl, and also lost some frame this past weekend due to some circumstances that turned into a huge argument and I was very reactionary (which is feminine energy) and not attitudes of an alpha male.

She has long complained to me about not communicating with her, about not answering her texts, about now initiating communication, etc. - she has complained to me about it since almost the first month. I never gave in to it. One or two times i'd text a "thinking about you my darling, trust you are keeping well" but that's about it. Apart from that, it would be to set dates or inform her I'm picking her up.

Her indicators of interest level:

• she's done almost 95% of the pursuing and texting and calling (even though many of her texts would go unanswered, even some phone calls)
• she's now just introduced me to her family (all her sisters, except her mom who wouldn't make it) and her family is dear to her, and it's the first time she's introducing someone to her family
• she's taken the bus from where she lives to come see me about 3 or 4 times
• she's bought me some pills she overheard I told my dad the doctor had recommended me but never got around to buy
• she's been highly cooperative with my requests or what I demand of her
• she's usually very feminine with me and very sweet, warm, loving

however I also understand women emote and may at times lose interest and I've learn that I should just assume attraction and maintain my frame even she has moments of being aloof, or days go by without her contacting me, or she's a bit distant when she's with me (until I open her up and lead her to the bed).

Now, there's been red flags from we started dating, and those are;

• daddy issues - her dad has been gone since she was 7, and she despises him for some atrocious things he did (not to her but to people close to her)
• she has had big insecurity issues with herself (wasn't too attractive in her younger years) and pretty much a late bloomer
• she's only had 1 relationship she has labeled as "formal" and this was with a guy who took her as the "side chick" and disillusioned her with her being a girlfriend and in a relationship
• she's been pretty open about her "hook ups" - saying that she's engaged mostly with that
• She doesn't have a great relationship with her family (except for 1 sister whom she really respects and talks her personal matters to)
• we got sexual from our very first date (didn't penetrate due to her menstruating) but did so on the second date and unprotected (she did ask me why I wasn't putting on a condom) but quickly forgot that

I've gotten a lot of feedback on here that some of these red flags should not be overlooked for very obvious reasons. however, she's also been doing some very construction manipulations.

now, I am gauging her interest level and I've noticed it dropping for about 2 weeks now. Reasons:

• During last week, she was very distant/cold and would leave me on "read" or would not answer some of my texts
• despite this, we already had plans to see each other on friday and we spent this past weekend together - and that was when we had the big argument
• she's been on her phone and more attentive of her phone a lot more (even though I've expressed my displeasure of this and set that as an expectation from when we started dating)
• she was rude to me at a bar we went to this past weekend by raising her voice and basically arguing with me (over nothing by the way)
• this week, she's initiated communication 3 days (yesterday I got an 'I miss you" text in the morning, I did not reply and haven't heard from her since then

I've read about not paying attention to what a woman says, but what she does. And if anything is indicative of her behavior, it's that she's losing interest or someone else is starting to talk to her.

my main point here is: how much is too cold? too aloof? too indifferent? I understand that a man must set frame and be masculine but also not be a "real" *******. Be a loveable *******, but a despised *******.

I believe I've ran too much dread game (actually this is what I've gamed her with). she's 28 and she's expressed to me that she's looking for a "real relationship" and someone who treats her the way she deserves to be treated. Lots of competition anxiety, aloof and indifferent game, etc. // HOWEVER, when she's with me I treat her in a masculine loving manner. Not at all beta or AFC, but with my presence, time, affection, sex, and experiences that I offer in my world.

I know many would say this is ONEitis or beta behavior but I do check her pinterest from time to time. Sometimes it's indicative of what a female is thinking or feeling as she pins what she feels is relevant to her presently. she pinned this lastnight;


now, if she leaves me because of hypergamy or out of frustration that she couldn't "tame" me - and auto rejected, fine.

but if I have a shot with her, I'd take it. because somehow I find her to be a person that has been working on herself, and through it, can still appreciate a masculine man with frame in her world that will lead her to where she'd like to be or go. and no, I am not white knighting.

I know that maybe introducing me to her family, she might want to keep me a little longer for fear of looking stupid in their eyes, and as soon as she gets a better option or has the balls to walk away she will do so. so I'm already preparing for her departure if so be it. No biggie. i've got many options and one of the things she threw in my face this past weekend was that I'm always on my phone and I'm always receiving phone calls from different girls (which I never answer, but she sees their photos on my screen when they are calling) etc.

what would you advise me here? work in a little betatude or soft next her? Corey Wayne says that being too much of a cold fish will make her give up and auto eject. I'd like to try it with this girl, but I also read Rollo Tommasi's "2 guitars" blog and that sort of shook me up.

thanks for your time and input.

 

[upcoming_DJ]

@BeExcellent @lizardking82 @Murkserious @fastlife wisdom appreciated every time.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

She's fvcking other guys, has zero to.do with you

Either ****ing or all up into someone else . It's cold to you cause your not them.

 

[upcoming_DJ]

Thanks for your feedback @LARaiders85 and @mrgoodstuff - I've thought about this. However, if this would be happening wouldn't she be awkward in person or physical intimacy? nothing's changed in sex between her and myself and she's still loving with me. Women emote - so the spells she acts distant aren't for long or whatever. Apart from this, she's never received a phone call when she's with me. She leaves her phone on the bed whilst she goes to the bathroom etc.

so it's contradictory.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Thanks for your feedback @LARaiders85 and @mrgoodstuff - I've thought about this. However, if this would be happening wouldn't she be awkward in person or physical intimacy? nothing's changed in sex between her and myself and she's still loving with me. Women emote - so the spells she acts distant aren't for long or whatever. Apart from this, she's never received a phone call when she's with me. She leaves her phone on the bed whilst she goes to the bathroom etc.

so it's contradictory.

Very good news. The problem ones would be texting next to you especially in the bathroom. They wouldn't let you close artificially making distance with arguments, talking to or screwing another dude .

I think your fine and would be served raising priority on your self interests to the point she's complaining a little for your time . That's the default masculine feminine polarity.

 

[upcoming_DJ]

Very good news. The problem ones would be texting next to you especially in the bathroom. They wouldn't let you close artificially making distance with arguments, talking to or screwing another dude .

I think your fine and would be served raising priority on your self interests to the point she's complaining a little for your time . That's the default masculine feminine polarity.

well here are a couple of things that has happened between the previous weekend to now that raised some red flags on my end, my reason for questioning and also studying her behavior and interest levels;

• previous weekend she went to a concert in the city she lives - I went out too where I'm from and around 4am I was a little drunk and decided I'll call her to tease her a little .... I call 1 time and she let the call go to voicemail but texted me 3 times right after with "Baabe", "I'm alive babe", "on my way home" .... then about 25 mins. later she tried calling me about 3 time. cool. that was saturday night. sunday she text me a few times, and also send me photos of her and her band members (she plays in a steel band as hobby) at the concert. cool.
  
• this past weekend we were at a beach resort in the southern part of my country and she got a call almost around 11pm I was taking a bath. She went outside to talk but I could still hear her. It really sounded more like chick talk but I let it slide, didn't ask whats up.
• The saturday night, we were at a bar (same place where she raised her voice with me before having to pay the bill to make up for the same stupid attitude), i went to the bathroom and when I was walking towards her she turned and looked over her shoulder, she had whatsapp open and she immediately closed it. Now I don't know if this is because I had already commented to her earlier that I won't talk to her about being on her phone anymore and that I've told her enough times already. Or, if she was talking to a guy and didn't want me to notice.

she does have of course her family group chat and her girls' group chat that keep very busy.

but like I said its contradictory. someone who is hiding something wont leave his or her phone just laying around. I sometimes see her phone light up with a notification from messenger or something and it's never anything with guys.

confusing.

 

[AJ84]

Thanks for your feedback @LARaiders85 and @mrgoodstuff - I've thought about this. However, if this would be happening wouldn't she be awkward in person or physical intimacy? nothing's changed in sex between her and myself and she's still loving with me. Women emote - so the spells she acts distant aren't for long or whatever. Apart from this, she's never received a phone call when she's with me. She leaves her phone on the bed whilst she goes to the bathroom etc.

so it's contradictory.

She doesn't answer her phone when she is with you, she probably doesn't answer her phone when she is with other guys either so that's not contradictory and you did mention that she is upfront about her hook ups, plus does not contact you for a few days.

Dating ' more exclusively ' means what?

She didn't care that you didn't use a condom and you are not exclusive, BIG RED FLAG.

She's probably fun to hang with and the sex is good but when you look at the whole picture is she worth your emotional investment? If not make that clear to her and let the chips fall where they may.

There are other girls, ones who use protection, for example. 2018 this should be par for the course for dating, I don't get it but anyway. Herpes is forever, an orgasm isn't.

Wrap that thing.

 

[sazc]

You "laid down the law" and "told her" you wouldn't tolerate her being in the phone in your presence. So now, in an effort to avoid an argument, she behaves in the same manner as a cheating chick would behave - close the apps quickly and get off the phone asap. Look like she had something to hide, because she does, the phone from you, because you made a big deal out of it.

There is a thing called 'compatibility between two people'. If you meet someone, start dating, and you realize some is their habits really don't sit well with you - that's called " incompatibility".

You can't change anyone. The most you can do is voice your displeasure/annoyance with the behavior and ask for what you want. It is then up to the other person to respect your needs, or not. If the other person doesn't respect your needs, then you need to consider if the need is a deal breaker.

From my perspective, she probably believes that you are starting to get/turned very controlling and she's b1tching to her sister and friends about your sh1tty behavior.

If she continues to have to walk on eggshells with her phone usage, and/or if she continues to percieve your behavior as controlling, she will end it because the relationship is no fun for her anymore.... Just something she's involved in where the other person doesn't like who she is and wants to change her.

Just my .02¢

Good luck

 

[lizardking82]

This all comes down to this simple equation: a bad behaviour once...you could tolerate it and pass it with a light joke.

A bad behaviour twice or more -> less time and attention. Not too much less, but a little less, meaning you let her understand you are not going to tolerate bad behaviour and bullsh1t with ACTIONS. If she were your girlfriend, I would say to try and talk to her about it, but in this case, the polarity is a bit more unofficial and light hearted so actions is what you need. Do not overcomplicate situations, my man, they are more simple than they might seem to you in a lot of cases.

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

There is no gentle way to say this. You are 200 pounds overweight. Obese. At 6'1" you should weigh around 200 lbs give or take. Obviously you are still able to pull women & you are good socially and you have value but when you are stacked up against a man who is not obese you are going to be at a disadvantage.

That's not to say overweight people aren't great people, and of course it's not the whole enchilada...I know more than one great couple where the man is trim & the wife pleasantly plump & other couples where both are heavy & they are happily married many years...so weight isn't everything...but it does detract from your own attractiveness after a while. You might be "safe" to her in a sense as well. That gets more to the psychology at play within her; her anxiety may increase if you start to lose weight because that will increase your desirability in the eyes of other women.

I think you do have oneitis. I think you need to focus less on her and more on getting yourself into better shape, as that can only increase your options and your self image. I think you are brave to reveal your own weaknesses & liabilities here...but I also think it would be a disservice to ignore the elephant in the room (your weight). Besides. Your long term health is at stake here. You are intelligent & you already know that.

My advice is to continue to behave like a man...and to start habits that will whittle away at your weight. Rome wasn't built in a day & you won't be height/weight proportionate by tomorrow. But step by step you can get there and you'll feel & look so much better than you do now.

I'll leave you with a story. One of my step brothers worked for a well known international financial firm. Wicked smart, rapier wit, well liked, social acumen. He was 6'4" and 375 lbs. As he rose through the management ranks eventually some senior managers sat him down one day and said "Bro. You are brilliant, you do a stellar job for the client, and you have senior management abilities. However, your physical appearance is adverse to the company's image and unless you lose a substantial amount of weight, you cannot advance further." This was obviously an uncomfortable revelation to my step brother.

So guess what he did? Over the next 18 months he got disciplined and he lost the weight. And he rose into the senior management ranks & now is a senior executive at another firm. He has kept the weight off many years. He went through a divorce along the way & married a woman who is beautiful and 15 years younger than he is. He is 50 now, she is 35.

Concentrate on getting your body into order. You already have many of the skills men here are working to develop. The chick thing will improve as your commitment to your own health improves.

 

[sosousage]

so you think you can be fat cuz you are ALPHA?

 

[upcoming_DJ]

Advice from the old lady:

There is no gentle way to say this. You are 200 pounds overweight. Obese. At 6'1" you should weigh around 200 lbs give or take. Obviously you are still able to pull women & you are good socially and you have value but when you are stacked up against a man who is not obese you are going to be at a disadvantage.

That's not to say overweight people aren't great people, and of course it's not the whole enchilada...I know more than one great couple where the man is trim & the wife pleasantly plump & other couples where both are heavy & they are happily married many years...so weight isn't everything...but it does detract from your own attractiveness after a while. You might be "safe" to her in a sense as well. That gets more to the psychology at play within her; her anxiety may increase if you start to lose weight because that will increase your desirability in the eyes of other women.

I think you do have oneitis. I think you need to focus less on her and more on getting yourself into better shape, as that can only increase your options and your self image. I think you are brave to reveal your own weaknesses & liabilities here...but I also think it would be a disservice to ignore the elephant in the room (your weight). Besides. Your long term health is at stake here. You are intelligent & you already know that.

My advice is to continue to behave like a man...and to start habits that will whittle away at your weight. Rome wasn't built in a day & you won't be height/weight proportionate by tomorrow. But step by step you can get there and you'll feel & look so much better than you do now.

I'll leave you with a story. One of my step brothers worked for a well known international financial firm. Wicked smart, rapier wit, well liked, social acumen. He was 6'4" and 375 lbs. As he rose through the management ranks eventually some senior managers sat him down one day and said "Bro. You are brilliant, you do a stellar job for the client, and you have senior management abilities. However, your physical appearance is adverse to the company's image and unless you lose a substantial amount of weight, you cannot advance further." This was obviously an uncomfortable revelation to my step brother.

So guess what he did? Over the next 18 months he got disciplined and he lost the weight. And he rose into the senior management ranks & now is a senior executive at another firm. He has kept the weight off many years. He went through a divorce along the way & married a woman who is beautiful and 15 years younger than he is. He is 50 now, she is 35.

Concentrate on getting your body into order. You already have many of the skills men here are working to develop. The chick thing will improve as your commitment to your own health improves.

tough love is always welcomed! and I want to thank you very much for your always being honest and straight -

I've always seen this elephant in the room - I've tried a couple of times (sometimes even with very good results, where people started to see positive visual results in me) and after 3-4 months I start back on a habit of going out, drinking, and back to eating, little sleep ... unhealthy habits.

so yes, I have actually seen this is as one, if not the biggest setbacks to my personal success (could be doing much better than I am presently) and also one of the struggles in maintaining attraction over the long term.

It's been on my mind to go back to the gym and start back on my healthy habits.

I will. It's about time. I am nearing 30 and realize that this will actually push me to live an even more fulfilling life. I will report back on my progress as I make them.

thanks very much once again!

 

[MrWood]

Sometimes it's indicative of what a female is thinking or feeling as she pins what she feels is relevant to her presently. she pinned this lastnight;

sorry, I think although she is there physically, you are in a way (sexually likely)... dead to her.

 

[upcoming_DJ]

sorry, I think although she is there physically, you are in a way (sexually likely)... dead to her.

thanks for your observation @MrWood ... certainly doesn't feel so in the bed. but it could be true.

 

[upcoming_DJ]

thank you very much for pointing this out @Amante Silvestre , and this is exactly why at the end of my post above I still hold on to the idea that if I just begin to communicate and open up a little more, and show her that she is not the side piece in this situation, she would begin to open up again.

She posts stuff on pinterest and likes a lot of quotes on instagram that has to do with things like "if you want something different, you've got to avoid your mistakes", and "you cannot expect different results if you're making the same mistakes" ... a lot of stuff in this manner. Exactly like you said - she's starting to feel like the side dish and noticing things as "red flags" that bring back her past experiences and attitudes from her ex.

also, whilst I understand that a MAN SHOULD LEAD - i've also read a lot on coach corey wayne, heartiste and rational male that I should not be the one bringing up exclusivity. This is the woman's role - more feminine role in relationships.

so in this case, how would you suggest I move forward?

she is a sweet and loving girl. and unlike other females whose friends would tell you things like "oh she was such a wildy before you came along, what did you do to her" or things along those lines, she's had solid friendships for over 8 years. Which as I've read, isn't a quality of a neurotic female who loves drama.

so a part of me believes in her.

the biggest factor I'd have to think about is distance and being in a long distance relationship. we live 2 hours away from each other.

the fact that she'd take the bus to come see me, and we can spend weekends together just going to the river and laying low makes me realize that she does value me. she's a very attractive female and gets eyed everywhere we go - and I'm a very solid male who commands attention when I enter any space and she feels that too.

I'm confused. and besides the weight factor - which I really don't consider to be a main issue here. I've actually once joked about it, and she held me and said "no baby I really like you just like this" .... of course, women say this that think or feel in the moment. Could have been momentarily.

but I'm leaning more towards your interpretation here and what @BeExcellent said in my other post about PLAYING GAMES. A real, confident, masculine man doesn't play games. and doesn't let his woman feel second to any other.

I've placed too much competition anxiety in her and maybe she also feels she needs to the same with me. sometimes women return the same game we play.

 

[upcoming_DJ]

While I agree with BE that focusing on your weight should be something to work on, I do not believe it has anything to do with your current situation.

You had mentioned that this girl had only one formal relationship prior to you; one in which she had discovered she was just a side piece.

This is a significant piece of information.

A woman like that is going to look back at all of the behaviors and red flags that she had missed in that relationship, and she is going to be VERY attentive and PARTICULARLY focused on spotting those same red flag behaviors moving forward (that means you).

Now, all of the things you have been doing since the beginning has worked because they are all things that a man of higher value tends to do, and she is attracted to those attributes in spite of your figure. However, over the course of time, particularly 3 or 4 months into dating, many women who are thinking LTR are going to expect to see certain behavioral changes at this same point; behaviors and mannerisms that are more indicative of a developing LTR. They expect this even from the most alpha of men.

This is where your problem begins.

When this previous man who had kept her as a side piece had reached this same 3/4 month threshold with her, he very likely made a large effort to maintain the status quo, rather than allow anything to develop indictive of a LTR....which makes sense because, after all, he did already have an ongoing relationship with someone else. When you have someone else, you do not maintain constant communication with your side-piece. When you have someone else, you do not initiate communication frequently other than to set up excursions for dates and sex. Ask anyone who is spinning plates if they communicate with these women as if they are girlfriends and they will likely tell you "no".

Now, here you are, 4 months in, at a time when some behavioral changes that are expected of a developing LTR should begin to make an appearance, and you are making a concentrated effort to maintain status quo; an effort not to change your behaviors in any way. She is literally looking for these very same behavioral signs to protect herself from reliving the side-dish situation all over again, and she may very well now believe that she sees them due to your concentrated effort to maintain the status quo.

Hence, she is starting to believe she is the side dish again.

There are many ways to go from here, but you have to know exactly what YOU want.....

as for this girl, maybe I've lost her. She seems to be ejecting emotionally.

this is another quote from her a while ago on pinterest:

 

[sazc]

If you are all the things you say you are personality wise, your weight won't matter to most females.

As long as you are not slovenly, your charisma makes up for your extra lbs

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

It seems that at some point game is counter-productive... and that point would be where you want to enter into a proper relationship with a woman. If you sense there is a mutual desire for a relationship then you need to switch into a warmer mode of interaction. To stick with 'game' in order to keep her interested reflects a rigid mindset... and as I said, is counter-productive to what you really want.
@Amante Silvestre said it well.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

As for where to go from here, as I said, that is based on what YOU really want here. Is she LTR material or no?

The biggest hindrance to the building of relationships today can be perceptions and misconceptions. The default position is a lack of trust toward a sexual partner... and then an unwillingness to build trust... often out of our own insecurities and a cynical mindset which would sabotage such trust.

The thing is, if people want to enter into a relationship today then they will have to exercise an element of faith in doing so. And yet people have become so rational/ realistic. The woman in question may be a little 'damaged' [who isn't?], but probably not irretrievably so [there is hope for everyone]… perhaps nothing that a decent relationship couldn't resolve.

 

[ohrein]

It seems that at some point game is counter-productive... and that point would be where you want to enter into a proper relationship with a woman. If you sense there is a mutual desire for a relationship then you need to switch into a warmer mode of interaction. To stick with 'game' in order to keep her interested reflects a rigid mindset... and as I said, is counter-productive to what you really want.
@Amante Silvestre said it well.

True, although I'd caution against ignoring game in this context as well. As Rollo said, you want to be the best of both alpha and beta to satisfy both parts of a woman's hypergamous needs. I wouldn't say that just switching to "a warmer mode of interaction" is the best advice for every situation given that being too warm when she requires masculinity for whatever situation may push you too far into beta territory. That said, sticking to pure alpha game and not providing a sense of security will doom a relationship as well. Game does not become irrelevant, it becomes more nuanced and pluralistic to match hypergamy's pluralism. There are times in a relationship when you must put your foot down with coldness and times when you need to be warmer. Adaptation and understanding are key. Although I'm still learning myself at the moment so with more time I should have a more solid idea.