The negativity is poisoning the forum

[guru1000]

I disagree. Pain is very real. I think suffering is inherent and universal to being human. It's true you can perceive your suffering differently, like people who end up losing limbs and climbing mountains, they define their strength through their suffering. But there is no escape from that suffering. You just choose to face it head on rather than let it destroy you.

Physical pain is very real.

Emotional pain is a perception.

You can choose to understand an event as a detraction from your life and consequently suffer--or--interpret the event as a positive catalyst toward evolving.

Change is not thought of solely though your own volition although the illusion of the ego makes it appear that way. Change is initially incited from something whether that something is by people, media, or through events. Events, irrespective of how deleterious you initially perceive them to be--are needed to catalyze your awareness into alternate venues of thinking where change now has a chance to evolve.

The great news is you choose the meaning of these events. When it rains, the farmer wins, the gardener loses. Choose the winning perception. More importantly, question WHY the event actualized and how you can use the lesson (hopefully extracted from the event) to grow. Therein is the treasure of "suffering."

 

[ohrein]

Emotional pain is a perception.

No, it's not. Not only does emotional pain manifest itself as physical pain, but I think it's more real than physical pain. Emotional pain cuts to the core of your consciousness, your being, your existence. You can use that pain to become stronger but it's still very real and universal to humanity.

I agree with your post in spirit, though. You use that pain to become stronger, to change the course of your life, to grow. But by that definition, it must be pain that drives you, ergo the pain is real.

 

[guru1000]

No, it's not. Not only does emotional pain manifest itself as physical pain, but I think it's more real than physical pain. Emotional pain cuts to the core of your consciousness, your being, your existence. You can use that pain to become stronger but it's still very real and universal to humanity.

I agree with your post in spirit, though. You use that pain to become stronger, to change the course of your life, to grow. But by that definition, it must be pain that drives you, ergo the pain is real.

Emotional pain is self-contrived, partly socially-conditioned. Few historical societies relished on the deaths of their loved ones, as they traveled to "heaven," and now left hell.

It's ALL in one's perception.

You feel the pain because you interpret the event to be painful. Certainly change at that instant feels uncomfortable, but that uncomfortableness transmutes to pain only through your "tainted" lens, and that "taint" is shaped by a lifetime of social indoctrination. If you peel back the layers of your social conditioning, you'll see how the pain was tied to a specific interpretation of "how things are supposed to be."

Truth is nothing particular is supposed to be, as everything that occurs right here, right now, to you, is as it is supposed to be.

It's only when you are ready to surrender structure a/k/a everything you have been taught to believe is true and good, can you truly transcend life's obstacles by surrendering "pain" and embracing challenge to change.

 

[ohrein]

Emotional pain is self-contrived, partly socially-conditioned. Few historical societies relished on the deaths of their loved ones, as they traveled to "heaven," and now left hell.

It's ALL in one's perception.

You feel the pain because you interpret the event to be painful. Certainly change at that instant feels uncomfortable, but that uncomfortableness transmutes to pain only through your "tainted" lens, and that "taint" is shaped by a lifetime of social indoctrination. If you peel back the layers of your social conditioning, you'll see how the pain was tied to a specific interpretation of "how things are supposed to be."

Truth is nothing particular is supposed to be, as everything that occurs right here, right now, to you, is as it is supposed to be.

It's only when you are ready to surrender structure a/k/a everything you have been taught to believe is true and good, can you truly transcend life's obstacles by surrendering "pain" and embracing challenge to change.

I think that's just delusional. Pain is pain, it's self evident. It's intrinsic to humanity. It seems to me you're confusing the event with the reaction. A loved one dying (as an event) is a painful experience. You can choose to let that destroy you (reaction), or you can choose to embrace it as a part of life (reaction). But the event itself is a loss of a loved one. There is no positive way to perceive that unless you delude yourself. Even if you believe it's good for them (they go to "heaven"), you still lose them. It is painful and that pain is real.

Now, I just want to be clear that I agree with you idealistically and with how you should react, but I think it's very important to embrace suffering as reality because trying to deny it will just cause inner turmoil. People will think they're broken for suffering, that they're too weak to see the horrors of life without a "tainted" lens. There's nothing wrong with seeing reality for how it is and for finding it painful, it's the next step that counts.

 

[guru1000]

I think that's just delusional. Pain is pain, it's self evident. It's intrinsic to humanity. It seems to me you're confusing the event with the reaction. A loved one dying (as an event) is a painful experience. You can choose to let that destroy you (reaction), or you can choose to embrace it as a part of life (reaction). But the event itself is a loss of a loved one. There is no positive way to perceive that unless you delude yourself. Even if you believe it's good for them (they go to "heaven"), you still lose them. It is painful and that pain is real.

. People will think they're broken for suffering, that they're too weak to see the horrors of life without a "tainted" lens. .

Mind you, when you speak of death, you're speaking more idealistically than I, and I from experience, as I have zero living family members.

But the event itself is a loss of a loved one.

You perceive it as a loss. Therein is your pain.

There is a change. That's certain. That's all there is. You cannot prove to me a loss exists if I interpret their existence remains. And if their existence remains, although in different form, then you act out of selfishness and not love, as it's about you--and not them.

but I think it's very important to embrace suffering as reality because trying to deny it will just cause inner turmoil

You can neither embrace nor deny "suffering," if suffering does not exist to you.

There's nothing wrong with seeing reality for how it is and for finding it painful, it's the next step that counts

Close your eyes for a moment. Tell me what you see. Nothing? Does this mean reality no longer exists because you cannot perceive it?

What you see is only what you can perceive through your five senses. But that's not all of reality. Not even close. So when you say "seeing reality for how it is," understand that you are not seeing reality as it is, but simply how you perceive reality to be.

 

[flowtheory]

Life is not suffering. To say so, would be to say one needs to be masochistic. suffering is not necessary for growth. One can grow without suffering. However when there is something we lose and feel loss, we can find deep meaning within that situation.

Most things are about perception.

 

[ohrein]

Mind you, when you speak of death, you're speaking more idealistically than I, and I from experience, as I have zero living family members.

I have plenty of experience with the death of loved ones.

You perceive it as a loss. Therein is your pain.

If you do not perceive it as a loss, you're deluding yourself OR you do not place any value on the thing that is gone.

You cannot prove to me a loss exists if I interpret their existence remains.

Correct, just as I can not prove reality exists to a person having a psychotic episode.

You can neither embrace nor deny "suffering," if suffering does not exist to you.

Trust me, there are ways to make anyone suffer. Physical pain will eventually cause you existential pain, ergo existential/emotional pain exists.

Close your eyes for a moment. Tell me what you see. Nothing? Does this mean reality no longer exists because you cannot perceive it?

What you see is only what you can perceive through your five senses. But that's not all of reality. Not even close. So when you say "seeing reality for how it is," understand that you are not seeing reality as it is, but simply how you perceive reality to be.

It depends what you mean by reality. If you're arguing from a solipsistic perspective then reality ceases to exist. Are you asking about objective reality through a materialistic lens? Then, yes reality continues to exist.

No offense, but your arguments are very new age and sophist. Denying suffering exists is like denying the sky is blue. You can make plenty of relativistic arguments but at the end of the day, we all live in a world with a blue sky and where people dying is emotionally painful. If pretending otherwise is helpful to you, that's fine. I'm not telling anyone how to live their life. Or maybe you genuinely don't feel emotional pain. I don't know. My philosophies tend to revolve around pragmatism for the most part, since we are forced to live in the world with other people and where we are not perfect beings who can rationalize our emotions perfectly.

 

[guru1000]

I have plenty of experience with the death of loved ones.

Then you haven’t learned much ... unfortunately.

If you do not perceive it as a loss, you're deluding yourself OR you do not place any value on the thing that is gone.

Now who is the deluded one: the one who believes that all that exists can only be perceived through their five senses?

I cannot place value on "the thing" gone as it's not gone. When water evaporates, are the elements that comprise water gone or do they change form? Because you can no longer perceive water through your senses does not mean the elements of water cease to exist. Your attachment to perceive water as water although it evolved is based on self, and not in consideration of the water which evolved. And so the suffering YOU created is based on the hole you contrived based on a loss where there is no loss.

Trust me, there are ways to make anyone suffer. Physical pain will eventually cause you existential pain, ergo existential/emotional pain exists.

Sounds juvenile. This is not a discussion of how to make one suffer, rather a discourse that suffering is a choice.

No offense, but your arguments are very new age and sophist. Denying suffering exists is like denying the sky is blue. You can make plenty of relativistic arguments but at the end of the day, we all live in a world with a blue sky and where people dying is emotionally painful.

"Denying suffering exists" is not the argument. Suffering exists. This doesn't mean suffering needs to exist. Understand the distinction?

Suffering is simply your interpretation of reality not corresponding with the reality you desire. Interpretation is a choice.

If pretending otherwise is helpful to you, that's fine. I'm not telling anyone how to live their life. Or maybe you genuinely don't feel emotional pain. I don't know. My philosophies tend to revolve around pragmatism for the most part, since we are forced to live in the world with other people and where we are not perfect beings who can rationalize our emotions perfectly.

If you wish to suffer, then by all means, have at it, I won't stop you. And so suffering shall continue for you.

Just remember, your suffering is a choice.

 

[ohrein]

"Denying suffering exists" is not the argument. Suffering exists. This doesn't mean suffering needs to exist. Understand the distinction?

Suffering is simply your interpretation of reality not corresponding with the reality you desire. Interpretation is a choice.

Right, you're making the Buddhist claim which I agree with as one.

Now who is the deluded one: the one who believes that all that exists can only be perceived through their five senses?

I never made that claim.

Sounds juvenile. This is not a discussion of how to make one suffer, rather a discourse that suffering is a choice.

No, we agree on that. As I said in an above post, there is a distinction between event and reaction. You're claim is that you can interpret events however you choose which while technically correct, is terrible advice. My claim is suffering is a choice in that you choose not to accept reality for how it is. I'm claiming it's okay to suffer and that you shouldn't avoid it. My claim isn't new or original, it's Buddhist.

Where I disagree with you is that the experience of losing a loved on is only negative due to my perception. Technically true, but much like physical pain, the emotional pain from the loss of someone important to you is not a choice. There can be positives from the experience but there is intrinsic negative experiences that can not be denied. It is emotionally painful, not by choice, but by virtue of being a human being.

Then you haven’t learned much ... unfortunately.

By making assumptions about me as a person, you've proved you do not understand what you're talking about. If you think you can invent information about me then you can damn sure do the same with your points. Which is a shame, because I am interested in your opinion, that's why I'm probing you. We agree on the rest. I am a Buddhist and to me suffering comes from "desire" (poor translation but it's what we tend to use).

So yes, your suffering is a "choice" but based on how you react to reality, not how you perceive it. I think trying to perceive reality differently, which is the definition of delusion, is not healthy. Eventually that ruse will collapse.

 

[guru1000]

Technically true, but much like physical pain, the emotional pain from the loss of someone important to you is not a choice. .

This is the crux of your position.

You might not feel that it is a choice, because you are unaware of the lifetime of indoctrination influencing your rational thought process, which has been imbued so deep in your psyche that you couldn't even fathom that how you choose to feel over a specific "atrocity" is a choice. It's an autonomous unconscious response to stimuli that you wholeheartedly believe to be true and here comes this Guru to tell you different.

Unconscious programming is difficult to challenge, but very possible. Much like unplugging from the Blue Pill, the first step is becoming aware of your indoctrination. Then slowly, you start to build rationality away from it.

Remember, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to think; only perceptions. Choose those perceptions which best serve you.

 

[Macaframalama]

how you react

how you perceive

These are very much the same thing are they not? Not so much a conscious decision to react,, such as turning to drinking as a reaction to a loved one dying, but a subconscious reaction, like the perception of extreme stress constantly triggering and keeping your nervous system in a sympathetic dominance state, which can and will kill you in one way or another. @guru1000 pm please. I tried messaging you, but seen no option on your page.

 

[Macaframalama]

My claim is suffering is a choice in that you choose not to accept reality for how it is.

Isn't it also impossible to define reality for how it is, outside of your own? Take the 911 terrorists perception of their own death vs the passengers for example.

 

[ohrein]

This is the crux of your position.

You might not feel that it is a choice, because you are unaware of the lifetime of indoctrination influencing your rational thought process, which has been imbued so deep in your psyche that you couldn't even fathom that how you choose to feel over a specific "atrocity" is a choice. It's an autonomous unconscious response to stimuli that you wholeheartedly believe to be true and here comes this Guru to tell you different.

Unconscious programming is difficult to challenge, but very possible. Much like unplugging from the Blue Pill, the first step is becoming aware of your indoctrination. Then slowly, you start to build rationality away from it.

Remember, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to think; only perceptions. Choose those perceptions which best serve you.

We're getting closer. But thought you control is your reaction. You do not control all your thoughts and impulses. Emotionality is a subconscious system. Fight or flight is outside your conscious control. You can guide your thoughts with cbt but you never own them. If your immediate reaction to tragedy is indifference or optimism, you are not within the normal range of people. Not a bad thing, but most people will never have that kind of immediate reaction. Anyone can choose how to deal with it though.

 

[ohrein]

These are very much the same thing are they not?

No. I can perceive a threat yet respond calmly. Perception is subconscious, reaction is conscious afterwards.

 

[ohrein]

Isn't it also impossible to define reality for how it is, outside of your own? Take the 911 terrorists perception of their own death vs the passengers for example.

Of course you can. Is it rational though?

 

[Trump]

No, it's not. Not only does emotional pain manifest itself as physical pain, but I think it's more real than physical pain. Emotional pain cuts to the core of your consciousness, your being, your existence.

I know insurance companies will provide insurance to men if they get in accidents, get their leg broken and can no longer work because they are experiencing too much physical pain.

Not sure if insurance companies will provide insurance to men if they get dumped by their girlfriends, get their heart broken and can no longer work because they are experiencing too much emotional pain.

 

[guru1000]

We're getting closer. But thought you control is your reaction. You do not control all your thoughts and impulses.Emotionality is a subconscious system. Fight or flight is outside your conscious control. You can guide your thoughts with cbt but you never own them. If your immediate reaction to tragedy is indifference or optimism, you are not within the normal range of people. Not a bad thing, but most people will never have that kind of immediate reaction. Anyone can choose how to deal with it though

You can control your thoughts (consciousness) immediately.

You control your impulses through time by employing Conscious Directives (CD). CDs are applying willful control of your thoughts repeatedly to alter your hardwiring, and in time your unconscious, to streamline the repetition, will amalgamate with your conscious thoughts. Just as in any learned behavior.

Consider when you first started brushing your teeth, you needed to make conscious efforts to pick up the toothbrush, put toothpaste on the brush, and slide the brush across your teeth in a backwards and forward motion until an ending point. You committed this conscious act hundreds of times before this "conscious act" became unconscious through habituation. Now when you wake up, without thought, you walk to the bathroom and brush your teeth without conscious effort or thought.

It begins with the perception. Then belief in the perception cements through repetition of thought. Then the hardwiring changes.

Isn't it also impossible to define reality for how it is, outside of your own? Take the 911 terrorists perception of their own death vs the passengers for example.

Of course you can. Is it rational though?

Rationality is not truly "rational," rather socially-indoctrinated and -contrived concepts.

Jewish religion, for example, finds it rational to not push the elevator button (because it's electric) even if you live on the 40th floor on Shabbat. Is this rational to a Muslim?

Muslims fast from dawn to sunset from May 16 - June 14. Is this rational to a Jew?

Rationality is defined by your belief system, which cements through repetition of thought of the truth, guided by your perception of what is true. It begins with your perception.

What if, for example, instead of stating he or she is "dead," you stated (and invested into that) he or she is now "alive." Small change of words, but deeply powerful to change your hardwiring over time.

 

[Macaframalama]

Of course you can. Is it rational though?

Just depends on who you ask really.

 

[The Duke]

Emotional pain is self-contrived, partly socially-conditioned. Few historical societies relished on the deaths of their loved ones, as they traveled to "heaven," and now left hell.

It's ALL in one's perception.

You feel the pain because you interpret the event to be painful. Certainly change at that instant feels uncomfortable, but that uncomfortableness transmutes to pain only through your "tainted" lens, and that "taint" is shaped by a lifetime of social indoctrination. If you peel back the layers of your social conditioning, you'll see how the pain was tied to a specific interpretation of "how things are supposed to be."

Truth is nothing particular is supposed to be, as everything that occurs right here, right now, to you, is as it is supposed to be.

It's only when you are ready to surrender structure a/k/a everything you have been taught to believe is true and good, can you truly transcend life's obstacles by surrendering "pain" and embracing challenge to change.

My divorce caused me an enormous amount of emotional pain for several weeks when I went thru all of that. But now that I have been thru all of that my "perception" has changed. If I ever did wind up divorced again, it won't hurt near as bad. It won't be as uncomfortable. I've already built up immunity/toughness to keep me from hurting so bad. And my perception of women has changed. I realize what they are. My incorrect interpretation that I developed thru social indoctrination was tainted and was ultimately where most of the pain came from.

Guru, that is a very wise piece you put together. You are exactly right.

 

[flowtheory]

My divorce caused me an enormous amount of emotional pain for several weeks when I went thru all of that. But now that I have been thru all of that my "perception" has changed. If I ever did wind up divorced again, it won't hurt near as bad. It won't be as uncomfortable. I've already built up immunity/toughness to keep me from hurting so bad. And my perception of women has changed. I realize what they are. My incorrect interpretation that I developed thru social indoctrination was tainted and was ultimately where most of the pain came from.

Guru, that is a very wise piece you put together. You are exactly right.

If you could sum them down to a paragraph. What are they?