It is hard being a Christian

[Red Legg]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God,to those who are CALLED according to his purpose.For those whom he FOREKNEW,he also PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of his son,so that he would be the firstborn among many brethren,and these whom he PREDESTINED,he also called,and these whom he called,he also justified,and these whom he justified,he also glorified. ROMANS 8: 28-30 (I guess the Arminians in this thread don't own a copy of the Bible)

 

[SeymourCake]

It would be a lot easier to live as a Christian if this world wasn't controlled by Jews.

 

[Atom Smasher]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God,to those who are CALLED according to his purpose.For those whom he FOREKNEW,he also PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of his son,so that he would be the firstborn among many brethren,and these whom he PREDESTINED,he also called,and these whom he called,he also justified,and these whom he justified,he also glorified. ROMANS 8: 28-30 (I guess the Arminians in this thread don't own a copy of the Bible)

I have studied this subject deeply and have come to the conclusion that God did not reveal clearly to us exactly how he effects his purposes, and therefor it is folly to "camp out" on either the Calvinistic side or the Arminian side. Many things he has made crystal clear, this subject he has not.

There are a plethora of scriptures that support predestination (as defined by the reformers), and a plethora that indicate free will. Somewhere within those two extremes, he accomplishes what he wants to.

Many Calvinists think that everybody else is an Arminian. This is absolutely not true. There are many who feel that it is impossible for mankind to make an absolute, clear determination based upon what God has revealed to us. There are indisputably many scriptures that support both doctrines, when cherry-picked. I prefer to take the stance that we cannot know precisely, and that God did not intend us to know precisely, else he would have been as clear as he has been with other doctrines. There are many devout believers on both sides of the issue, and many who think that God has chosen not to reveal everything about it.

 

[Bible_Belt]

God hated Esau before he was even born before he had done anything good or bad (Romans 9:11) or Jacob I loved,but Esau I hated (Romans 9:13)

That quote is out of context. Romans 9:14, the very next line says "Is God unjust? Not at all." Paul meant that people would say God hated Esau, but that it really wasn't true. Both men became the fathers of their respective tribes.

At one point Jacob almost submission wrestles God to a draw, but ends up losing when God catches him in a holy leg lock. Church would be a lot more fun if they talked about stuff like that.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God,to those who are CALLED according to his purpose.For those whom he FOREKNEW,he also PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of his son,so that he would be the firstborn among many brethren,and these whom he PREDESTINED,he also called,and these whom he called,he also justified,and these whom he justified,he also glorified. ROMANS 8: 28-30 (I guess the Arminians in this thread don't own a copy of the Bible)

The problem, from our grounded two-dimensional rational perspective, is this is Holy Scripture come to us from on High, and thus remains as mysterious to us as we are to the minds of ants.

Now, from God's perspective, being omniscient, obviously He knows the future course of events. But it is hard to say, from our perspective, what this exactly would involve for us, or rather, how this translates into our experience as we live it. Remember, man is no mere ant but is supposedly made in the image of God.... and this would seem to involve a moral capacity, and a radical freedom.

What happens when you get an overly legalistic and rational mind such as Calvin's, is that 'pre-destination' suddenly morphs into determinism. This theology is horrific because it comes at a very high price... the sacrifice of human freedom.

The danger seems to lie in theology. One theologian would emphasis some snippets of Scripture, whilst another would emphasize other parts. Theology should just retrain itself to the old-style exegesis in my opinion, and not attempt to reduce Scripture to rational coherency. The dogma of the Trinity, not to mention the Incarnation, should serve to warn anyone off that enterprise.

If you look at the series of Councils of the Church, and the development of Christian doctrine, it should become obvious that all attempts towards rational coherency led to heresies. This also reflects the importance of a tradition and an authority for religion. It is NOT a purely rational/ individualistic enterprise.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Arminianism. 30 minutes in.

 

[Von]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God,to those who are CALLED according to his purpose.For those whom he FOREKNEW,he also PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of his son,so that he would be the firstborn among many brethren,and these whom he PREDESTINED,he also called,and these whom he called,he also justified,and these whom he justified,he also glorified. ROMANS 8: 28-30 (I guess the Arminians in this thread don't own a copy of the Bible)

If only life worked like that.

Interesting thread guys and thanks for sharing.

My cellphone quite not efficient to reply too much.

I know this Christian issue with me and her inexpérience in dating (although she's grown), her émotions, cause her alot of
inner conflict.

Every day she pass with me: she sees only good stuff, happy couples, she does hear about the bad going on too... but she's saying: succesful and happy people, she seeing réal life added to the needs of professional life.
And we are all none christians because christianity was thrown out by the window and became associated with all the evils of society (and the priests have only themselves to blame)

Its nothing at à book can teach you. Bible or not.
She sees non-believer having à better life than her family (note: her uncles have quite à similar life style than me in everyway but they live in another city: too far to be a reference)

No doubt, I am ready to convert for her but I know i'll be moderate about it compared to her.

She has all the qualities i am looking for but I knew this bug is big for her but I am ready to do something about it.
Its seems she's much more rigid about it

Its interesting to see people who follow the path of love and of Jésus (who was all about love and accepting others)... but people seems to only accept if its their type of Christians love... while Atheist all are welcoming and respectful.

Its quite contradicting. The people of Christ only accepting others like themselves while their own leader Christ was all welcoming. While the "lost ones" are also all welcoming.

It makes you wonder who are the réal followers or believers.

Anyway, i'll read the bible in my spare time (she told me i needed another bible cause mine was protestant and lacked some chapters) to understand her more and since i already read the Coran.. it's the normal way to go.

I am ready to make steps for her, and accept her. If she can't do the same... than she's not serious about me and I move on

 

[Atom Smasher]

You can't "convert" to Christianity, as Christianity is not a religion. It's an inner sorrow for one's sin before God and a knowledge that our only hope for salvation is faith in Christ, as the bible teaches.

Jesus wasn't "all welcoming". In fact, he constantly talked about hell and told people they were surely going there.

Sin is what separates us from God. Man cannot earn his way out of that with good works, because good works cannot erase past sins, and the natural man is slave to sin. We are in an entirely hopeless mess, and God, knowing this, provided a way out. Faith in Christ, the perfect sacrifice for the remission of sin.

God never says, "Approach me your way". No, he says, "Here is specifically how you approach me". There are lots of little gods running around, telling him what is right and wrong, and even defining God out of imagination and out of a desire to soften him up and make him the loving grandpa in the sky. God is in a bad position where he MUST punish sin, else he would not be righteous. When we surrender, Jesus becomes our advocate in God's court and he says to God the Father, "I have paid for his (or her) sins".

Our motivation for following Christ must be to get right with God, and nothing else. Christianity is a realization, a desire to get our relationship with him normalized. It is sorrow for sin and a determination to stop, with his help.

For anyone who is curious, I highly recommend they read the gospel of John. This gospel portrays Jesus' diety. The other 3 gospels portray his other aspects (Luke, his humanity. Mark, his servant-hood, Matthew, his kingship).

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"
Romans 10:17

 

[Red Legg]

I have studied this subject deeply and have come to the conclusion that God did not reveal clearly to us exactly how he effects his purposes, and therefor it is folly to "camp out" on either the Calvinistic side or the Arminian side. Many things he has made crystal clear, this subject he has not.

There are a plethora of scriptures that support predestination (as defined by the reformers), and a plethora that indicate free will. Somewhere within those two extremes, he accomplishes what he wants to.

Many Calvinists think that everybody else is an Arminian. This is absolutely not true. There are many who feel that it is impossible for mankind to make an absolute, clear determination based upon what God has revealed to us. There are indisputably many scriptures that support both doctrines, when cherry-picked. I prefer to take the stance that we cannot know precisely, and that God did not intend us to know precisely, else he would have been as clear as he has been with other doctrines. There are many devout believers on both sides of the issue, and many who think that God has chosen not to reveal everything about it.

Did the disciples chose Jesus? or did Jesus chose the disciples ? You also have to learn how to interpret the "whole spirit of scripture "as well,not just verses.Jesus CHOSE the disciples they were minding thier own business when Jesus just walked up and CHOSE them this is how it works,we don't get to choose Atom Smasher...

 

[Red Legg]

Arminianism. 30 minutes in.

Arminians ( free willies) will never learn lool......GOD IS ABSOLUTELY SOVEREIGN.... and they are NOT !

 

[Atom Smasher]

Did the disciples chose Jesus? or did Jesus chose the disciples ? You also have to learn how to interpret the "whole spirit of scripture "as well,not just verses.Jesus CHOSE the disciples they were minding thier own business when Jesus just walked up and CHOSE them this is how it works,we don't get to choose Atom Smasher...

Lose the argumentative attitude. This posturing is entirely unnecessary.

 

[corrector]

To suggest that God is not 100% sovereign is absurd,God is 100% sovereign or he is not God.Correcter you can reply suggesting God is not sovereign all you want,

I am not supposed to reply and say something like that unless God allows it? Why would God allow me to write something like that then?
What is your explanation for that?

evil things happen every day especially by reprobates,God does not need anybody.The Bible is crystal clear that God hated Esau BEFORE he was born so his purpose in ELECTION might stand.(you are either elect or you are not,this was decided before the world was created)

I don't think it's fair to ignore the actual narrative of Esau and Jacob.

I also noticed you did not bring up all the verses on PREDESTINATION that are found in God's holy word ( guess you are just going to avoid those )The " whosoever" you speak of in John 3:16 in the original Greek simply means "all the believing".There is an excellent video on Youtube by Dr.James White explaining Romans Chapter 9 giving the full Exegesis it's called James White's Exegesis of Roman's 9 (2015)

Then why does 2 Peter 1:10 suggest you have to make your calling and election sure? If God is responsible for that then what is there to make sure about?

 

[Von]

You can't "convert" to Christianity, as Christianity is not a religion. It's an inner sorrow for one's sin before God and a knowledge that our only hope for salvation is faith in Christ, as the bible teaches.

Jesus wasn't "all welcoming". In fact, he constantly talked about hell and told people they were surely going there.

Sin is what separates us from God. Man cannot earn his way out of that with good works, because good works cannot erase past sins, and the natural man is slave to sin. We are in an entirely hopeless mess, and God, knowing this, provided a way out. Faith in Christ, the perfect sacrifice for the remission of sin.

God never says, "Approach me your way". No, he says, "Here is specifically how you approach me". There are lots of little gods running around, telling him what is right and wrong, and even defining God out of imagination and out of a desire to soften him up and make him the loving grandpa in the sky. God is in a bad position where he MUST punish sin, else he would not be righteous. When we surrender, Jesus becomes our advocate in God's court and he says to God the Father, "I have paid for his (or her) sins".

Our motivation for following Christ must be to get right with God, and nothing else. Christianity is a realization, a desire to get our relationship with him normalized. It is sorrow for sin and a determination to stop, with his help.

For anyone who is curious, I highly recommend they read the gospel of John. This gospel portrays Jesus' diety. The other 3 gospels portray his other aspects (Luke, his humanity. Mark, his servant-hood, Matthew, his kingship).

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"
Romans 10:17

So how do you normalize your relationship with god?

 

[Atom Smasher]

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" says the bible.

No one on earth can "convince" a man to have faith in Jesus. It only happens by exposure to scripture, and through that, a spiritual transformation occurs. For myself, I started reading the bible with the intent of eliminating it as truth and debunking it, and I found myself completely transformed by it.

Like I said, the gospel of John is a great place to start.

 

[Bible_Belt]

My ex-wife remarried a guy from North Africa and thus converted to Islam. She has pointed out to me that, officially anyway, Islam regards Jesus as a legitimate prophet. Islamic faith views the Koran as the third of the three holy books, the first two being the Old and New Testament of the same Bible in every Christian church. Even with the Jewish faith, they share the Old Testament. Hell, the most radical Islamics would be ISIS, and not that you will hear it on the news, but they preach that Jesus is coming back to save their asses from us. For all of the justifications for wars and murders that religion has provided, the similarities and common beliefs of those religions are mind-boggling to me.

 

[Red Legg]

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" says the bible.

No one on earth can "convince" a man to have faith in Jesus. It only happens by exposure to scripture, and through that, a spiritual transformation occurs. For myself, I started reading the bible with the intent of eliminating it as truth and debunking it, and I found myself completely transformed by it.

Like I said, the gospel of John is a great place to start.

First I would like to say that my last post was an attempt at humor ( that obviously failed) I in no way want to hurt anyones feelings while trying to get my point across ,but my views were called heretical as well.What you had said in your post I responded to was that you had studied this question deeply and that you had come to the conclusion that the word of God was unclear or that God had not revealed what his nature was.In the light of scripture nothing could be further from the truth.God (Jesus) CHOSE the disciples not the other way around. Jesus did not ask some people to be disciples and have them say "no thank you" ........ALL 12 said yes,Jesus even had one predestined for destruction (Judas) This is just one of MANY examples of God choosing people. "For he CHOSE us in him BEFORE the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.In love- Ephesians 1:4

 

[Von]

My ex-wife remarried a guy from North Africa and thus converted to Islam. She has pointed out to me that, officially anyway, Islam regards Jesus as a legitimate prophet. Islamic faith views the Koran as the third of the three holy books, the first two being the Old and New Testament of the same Bible in every Christian church. Even with the Jewish faith, they share the Old Testament. Hell, the most radical Islamics would be ISIS, and not that you will hear it on the news, but they preach that Jesus is coming back to save their asses from us. For all of the justifications for wars and murders that religion has provided, the similarities and common beliefs of those religions are mind-boggling to me.

Yeah its an issue i have with all religion. Especially the Mid-eastern Abrahamic ones.

When you think about it (i am officially slowly reading the bible) from my expérience, éducation, and having read the Quran (Koran).

Islam is actually the most open religion of them all, with more women rights etc. And when you think of the médiéval empires the arabic-islamic have built... they quite more superior, free, enlightened than their Christian Europeans counterpart.

When that ended around 1200 AD when the empire started to divide itself among warlord, the mongolians came their armies and kinda killed everyone there.. burning the biggest cities since Rome and Nanjing to the ground.

Than Ottoman as refugees and survivor of the mongolian massacer came and through their sea way... the Greek philosophy of Aristotle and Plato came back in Italy (through Sicily) than Rome to create the "enlightment" and some theological change in the Church.

None with standing.. Jews believe in the holy Land for them and a focus on bloodline.. than exclude everyone else.

Christian says: you are with us or against us

Islam says you have 3 choice: Live in a world of Islam only, Be surving in the Land of the infidels, Gotta conquer them all to establish the Truth.

In the polytheist arab culture: Allah was a minor god in the domain of fertility and agriculture... Islam made him Supreme.

I was thought... There was no hell mention in the Bible or Christian theology until the enlightment.. my GF said "hell= death (like
the Greek way"

I've had Theology courses in University... did you know Christian Feminism emerged among the same time as the feminist révolution? It was reject by the chuch.. but christianity has its Feminism version.

I am curious to discover more.. but there is always this....well my Truth is better than yours feeling that I am unconfortable with (i respect all beliefs.. even if I prefer mine lol).. since there is some much Truth.

I've read an article recently saying that American White Protestant (or Christian) are officially à minority or on the vergé of being one in the USA.

I think since 2012: Islam is the number 1 religion in followers and growth, followed by christianity in 2nd (but that has à 1%
growth average).. than hindu or chinese stuff.

Having à religion is hard for everyone now. A nun wrote an article in a Toronto newspaper (Canada English version).. about how religion has become extrême and so atheism (there is no between, you 100% of out) and she found it sad because it signifies an end to the dialogue.

The new Pope been trying to act as a moderate in all these world changes.. and its good cause he's showing à good example.

I am curious if we will soon see the émergence of a new religion (since they been around for 4000,2010,1400 years.. 600 years for the protestants)

 

[Red Legg]

I am not supposed to reply and say something like that unless God allows it? Why would God allow me to write something like that then?
What is your explanation for that?



I don't think it's fair to ignore the actual narrative of Esau and Jacob.



Then why does 2 Peter 1:10 suggest you have to make your calling and election sure? If God is responsible for that then what is there to make sure about?

You actually brought up a verse that SUPPORTS "Calvinism" lol.......2 Peter 1:10 means that you can be "sure" or have confidence that you are called and elected.IF you have knowledge,self-control,godliness ect........... you can KNOW for sure you are chosen and have full confidence in it,btw "Calvinism" is just a nickname,the proper term is "Reformed" I am a Reformed Baptist,Reformed Christianity is nothing more than Biblical Christianity meaning the Bible is the absolute infallible word of God.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

So how do you normalize your relationship with god?

The Roman Catholic Church is a good place to start. You have a long established tradition, authority and culture there. For a healthy and robust attitude toward the faith, you could start reading G.K. Chesterton. Once you want in, talk to a priest.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Nah... I saw in a doco recently that the Catholic Church still has 1.5 billion members [despite the recent troubles] while the Orthodox Church has something like 250 million. Still, they are both real Churches. Damn shame they split in the 11th century... probably over politics more than the 'filioquo'.

As for Protestantism it is pretty much collapsing as an organized religion... in complete doctrinal and organizational disarray. This is why the so-called Protestant countries are so susceptible to the inflooding of all these new barbarous, or rather, over-civilized beliefs.